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 Sigvatr wrote:
Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?

Necrons have similar statlines and get WBB though so that's kind of a wash. A closer comparison is to Sisters who are only 2 points cheaper and lose points in a wide range of stats and all the nifty rules for those two points.

WBB is nowhere near as good as 3+, ATSKNF, CT, etc etc.

ATSKNF alone should be at least 2 pts.

Why are people acting like a lack of Interceptor necessarily precludes shooting at ground targets at full BS? Look at the Soulgrinder: the Harvester is one gun with two profiles, one is Skyfire, the other is not. I'm guessing the new tanks may have something similar, allowing them to freely alternate between Skyfiring and ground-firing.

Then again, at a rumored 70-75 points a pop...maybe not.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
It's an AA tank. It shouldn't have interceptor because then it could shoot at everything with normal BS. Which then makes it not so much dedicated AA but more just shoot at everything. That's what OTHER units are for i.e. Devastators, Centurians, and Predators.

At least it can still sit there and glance skimmers to death too. (im looking at you wave serpants)

The lack of interceptor is a bit annoying but good positioning should take care of it for the most part.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, since there's conflicting information, does Accept Any Challenge give (rerolls to hit in combat) and (rending in challenges) or (rerolls to hit and rending in challenges)? I would so love to have the rerolls back. Frankly, without it Crusader Squads would STILL be worse than Grey Hunters, especially since Righteous Zeal and Rage no longer seems to be around (which isn't all bad, mind you).

Accept All Challenges gives models in a challenge re-rolls to hit AND rending. Everyone gets Crusade and Adamantium will though.

And Crusade Squads can hide a power weapon on a normal Initiate in the squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 c0j1r0 wrote:
It's an AA tank. It shouldn't have interceptor because then it could shoot at everything with normal BS. Which then makes it not so much dedicated AA but more just shoot at everything. That's what OTHER units are for i.e. Devastators, Centurians, and Predators.

With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?

oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?

Didn't know ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, 3+ and Sergeants are options.

GW really sticks to the plan to make new stuff or re-releases badly balanced on purpose, eh.

Lol, yes they do, if you were impressed with that, they forgot to mention that now Ultramariness get twin linked free army wide as well.

The WHOLE army doesn't get twin-linked. That's only Tactical Marines in the Tactical Trait. Everyone else re-rolls 1s.

 whigwam wrote:
Why are people acting like a lack of Interceptor necessarily precludes shooting at ground targets at full BS? Look at the Soulgrinder: the Harvester is one gun with two profiles, one is Skyfire, the other is not. I'm guessing the new tanks may have something similar, allowing them to freely alternate between Skyfiring and ground-firing.

Then again, at a rumored 70-75 points a pop...maybe not.

Unless you're talking about a storm bolter or a hunter-killer missile, then no. The weapon has skyfire, but not interceptor. If a weapon or unit has one but not the other, it uses snap-fire rules.

xxvaderxx wrote:
With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.

So what? You just take two or three
Because you can do that, since these things are only 70 or 75 points each.

People asking for Interceptor don't realise that it would also double the cost (or even more).

xxvaderxx wrote:
But the stalker is anti air, i dont think the hunter is AA, it does not like like it, looks more like an artillery piece on wheels.

Do you have any idea how strong this would be if it didn't have Skyfire?
75 points, S7+2D6 against Land Raiders at 60" with a 33% chance to explode it on penetration (and it almost has a 42% chance to penetrate).
And I don't even want to think about my Necron-vehicles :( each hit has a 29% chance to let them explode.

Sure, it will do better against flyers but that means you are "screwed" if the opponent has no fliers. That is why it is only 75 points.
This thing would be too strong for normal vehicles, since almost everyone plays those.

 Sigvatr wrote:
WBB is nowhere near as good as 3+, ATSKNF, CT, etc etc.

ATSKNF alone should be at least 2 pts.

Not sure if serious...

ClockworkZion wrote:


The WHOLE army doesn't get twin-linked. That's only Tactical Marines in the Tactical Trait. Everyone else re-rolls 1s.

Oh , thanks, so the entire army gets Preferred Enemy (Everything) for free, whereas Tac get twin-linked instead. That clears things up a bit

Imo, they should also get Toughness 5, they are Space Marines, after all...and maybe 2 Wounds each, because they got a shiny armor.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?

oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?

Didn't know ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, 3+ and Sergeants are options.

GW really sticks to the plan to make new stuff or re-releases badly balanced on purpose, eh.

Wait... a necron player who thinks his Warriors are worse than Tacticals What?! How? Every weapon you have can glance any vehicle, you have arguably the best transport in the game (Wave Serpent might get you), and you stand back up! Also, your unit isn't way worse if its understrength and you can run an IC in your transport without nerfing your entire squad... which can have 5 more models than a tactical squad and still be in your death-proof flying drop pod with awesome weapons. Go away silly person! Your glass isn't half empty, its three quarters full. Good lord, the BA/Necron/SW tears are making hypocrites and whiners out of so many players who still have it better than SM players for basically all of 5th editon, and if they wipe their eyes, they're still only a model or two per 1k points off the SM pace IF the rumors are all correct.

xxvaderxx wrote:

With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.

so don't leave it in the open in range of everything?

Give the enemies something else to worry about?

Sure av 12 isn't the hardest nut to crack, if that's all you are going for, and are in range of it... and yea there are games it will die before it does it's job... but that's the game... when it lives and shoots down the fliers that are wrecking havoc on your army (helldtakes etc) then it's 75 points well spent...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
WBB is nowhere near as good as 3+, ATSKNF, CT, etc etc.

ATSKNF alone should be at least 2 pts.

Not sure if serious...

Sadly they usually are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:


The WHOLE army doesn't get twin-linked. That's only Tactical Marines in the Tactical Trait. Everyone else re-rolls 1s.

Oh , thanks, so the entire army gets Preferred Enemy (Everything) for free, whereas Tac get twin-linked instead. That clears things up a bit

Imo, they should also get Toughness 5, they are Space Marines, after all...and maybe 2 Wounds each, because they got a shiny armor.

They only re-roll ones for shooting. Preferred Enemy works in the Assualt Phase too.

And I can't manage to read that last part, it's too garbled with whinge to make out properly. I think it says "Marines are fairly balanced and I'm just jealous."

 Lobukia wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?

oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?

Didn't know ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, 3+ and Sergeants are options.

GW really sticks to the plan to make new stuff or re-releases badly balanced on purpose, eh.

Wait... a necron player who thinks his Warriors are worse than Tacticals What?! How? Every weapon you have can glance any vehicle, you have arguably the best transport in the game (Wave Serpent might get you), and you stand back up! Also, your unit isn't way worse if its understrength and you can run an IC in your transport without nerfing your entire squad... which can have 5 more models than a tactical squad and still be in your death-proof flying drop pod with awesome weapons. Go away silly person! Your glass isn't half empty, its three quarters full. Good lord, the BA/Necron/SW tears are making hypocrites and whiners out of so many players who still have it better than SM players for basically all of 5th editon, and if they wipe their eyes, they're still only a model or two per 1k points off the SM pace IF the rumors are all correct.

Let's not forget also that Necrons are Ld10 to the paltry Ld8 of Tacticals.

 Lobukia wrote:


Wait... a necron player who thinks his Warriors are worse than Tacticals What?! How? Every weapon you have can glance any vehicle, you have arguably the best transport in the game (Wave Serpent might get you), and you stand back up! Also, your unit isn't way worse if its understrength and you can run an IC in your transport without nerfing your entire squad... which can have 5 more models than a tactical squad and still be in your death-proof flying drop pod with awesome weapons. Go away silly person! Your glass isn't half empty, its three quarters full. Good lord, the BA/Necron/SW tears are making hypocrites and whiners out of so many players who still have it better than SM players for basically all of 5th editon, and if they wipe their eyes, they're still only a model or two per 1k points off the SM pace IF the rumors are all correct.

I'm comparing individual units here. If you want to argue that Necron Warriors should be more expensive than TAC because of Nightscythes, you'd automatically say that every player should always play the most OP lists out there to get a balanced army.

Kangodo wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.

So what? You just take two or three
Because you can do that, since these things are only 70 or 75 points each.

People asking for Interceptor don't realise that it would also double the cost (or even more).

The problem with that is then you have no more HS slots left. If you can take a squadron? Sure. 3 of those AA tanks for 210-225 points and a single HS choice? Sign me up. Worst case scenario they're mobile terrain that might kill a few models or a tank. If I have to give up all of the rest of my heavy support though... eeeeh.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, since there's conflicting information, does Accept Any Challenge give (rerolls to hit in combat) and (rending in challenges) or (rerolls to hit and rending in challenges)? I would so love to have the rerolls back. Frankly, without it Crusader Squads would STILL be worse than Grey Hunters, especially since Righteous Zeal and Rage no longer seems to be around (which isn't all bad, mind you).

Accept All Challenges gives models in a challenge re-rolls to hit AND rending. Everyone gets Crusade and Adamantium will though.

And Crusade Squads can hide a power weapon on a normal Initiate in the squad.

Slower into combat and less attacks on the charge hurts a lot, even with everything we gained. The loss of Fearless in CC is another unpleasant hit. The new rules don't really add much to the CC prowess of the Templars, and I'm not too keen on trading what little CC extras there were in the old Codex for some situational rules. I guess the CC nerf is in line with what happened to Khorne Berzerkers, though.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?

Against AP5 shooting, Reanimation Protocol with a 4+ is almost the same as Sv 3+. Against AP4, you would want 3+ and against AP3, Reanimation Protocol is the clear winner!

Calculations (assume that each group has 100 wounds)
AP5: Necrons: 33 dead, Marines: 33 dead, Res-Orb: 25 dead
AP4: Necrons: 67 dead, Marines: 33 dead, Res-Orb: 50 dead
AP3: Necrons: 67 dead, Marines: 100 dead, Res Orb: 50 dead

They also have +2LD, better transport, can glance vehicles and they DO have Sergeants (we call those Lords and Crypteks).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?

Yet they still get Re-animation protocols and glance vehicles on a 6, with a good transport.

It's still better then CSM's -1 point for nothing.

but they can take MoT for 2 points and get a 6++!

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:


Wait... a necron player who thinks his Warriors are worse than Tacticals What?! How? Every weapon you have can glance any vehicle, you have arguably the best transport in the game (Wave Serpent might get you), and you stand back up! Also, your unit isn't way worse if its understrength and you can run an IC in your transport without nerfing your entire squad... which can have 5 more models than a tactical squad and still be in your death-proof flying drop pod with awesome weapons. Go away silly person! Your glass isn't half empty, its three quarters full. Good lord, the BA/Necron/SW tears are making hypocrites and whiners out of so many players who still have it better than SM players for basically all of 5th editon, and if they wipe their eyes, they're still only a model or two per 1k points off the SM pace IF the rumors are all correct.

I'm comparing individual units here. If you want to argue that Necron Warriors should be more expensive than TAC because of Nightscythes, you'd automatically say that every player should always play the most OP lists out there to get a balanced army.

No, I'm just not looking at things in a vacuum. You have strongly implied/said that tacticals are better than they should be compared to warriors... you even listed optional weapons (additions to the unit)... but ignored the mountain of advantages and awesome options your warriors have. If you're choosing to not take options that make your units better, well I'm not sure why you're pointing the finger at GW then. Last I checked, units have to be taken with the rest of their codex. You have some of the best codex synergy in the game with your warriors... if you ignore all the ups of a unit, yeah it sucks then.

In short, looks like they split up the various chapters (despite the Codex Fluff of telion being "loaned out" to other Chapters for training) with the C:SM giving you all of the Ultra Characters, but also enough SCs from other chapters to continue to field you current armies as intended.
I suspect the upcoming Supplements will provide other Chapter Specific special characters and wargear that can then put the finishing touches to your Armies flavor ( a SC Terminator SGT that T/Ls his squads Hammers, A white Scar Relic that allows you to take 2 extra bike squads as Troops/Scoring; the ability to pay for "Vulkan Forged Armor" ...see Salamander Dreadnought HQ... on Sally tanks that act like ceramite armour, etc...).

I like the idea of allying various Chapters.
So if you "must" have Telion and a Psyker in your Salamander Army , you take a UM Ally with Tigerius and a scout Squad as your Troop, and get telion and a really Buffed Psyker (Question: If your using "aliied C:SM chapters", are they still restricted to using their own Chapter transport? ie: IF Termies with Lysander jumping out of Vulkans T/L Melta equipped LR Redeemer.)
The other benefit of allying Chapters (or taking an IG ally)...each ally detachment can take 1 Fort. So for 100pts per ally you can take a ADL with Quad-gun...with Twin-Link, Skyfire AND Interceptor. Perhaps 30-35 points more than a Stalker/Hunter...but you get T7 with a 4+/2+ (GTG) save.
If your always facing Turkey-Spam...that may be the better way of dealing with that...and the quad-gun is still an excellent Transport buster.

(EDIT) The downside being for those of use who love DIY Chapters, we will have to look at repainting and decaling entire chunks of our armies to prevent shennanigan calls of identical painted units suddenly switching traits.
I may play a Salamnder Army, but i'll be d@mned if I paint them green (a color I hate)!

 Sigvatr wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:


The WHOLE army doesn't get twin-linked. That's only Tactical Marines in the Tactical Trait. Everyone else re-rolls 1s.

Oh , thanks, so the entire army gets Preferred Enemy (Everything) for free, whereas Tac get twin-linked instead. That clears things up a bit

Imo, they should also get Toughness 5, they are Space Marines, after all...and maybe 2 Wounds each, because they got a shiny armor.

bolters shoudl be strength 10, cuz the bolts explode.

dkellyj wrote:
The other benefit of allying Chapters (or taking an IG ally)...each ally detachment can take 1 Fort.

Now where did you get an idea like that, because it certainly isn't from the 6th edition BRB?

 Exergy wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:


The WHOLE army doesn't get twin-linked. That's only Tactical Marines in the Tactical Trait. Everyone else re-rolls 1s.

Oh , thanks, so the entire army gets Preferred Enemy (Everything) for free, whereas Tac get twin-linked instead. That clears things up a bit

Imo, they should also get Toughness 5, they are Space Marines, after all...and maybe 2 Wounds each, because they got a shiny armor.

bolters shoudl be strength 10, cuz the bolts explode.

Spess Mahrins shudn't be affected by poison cuz their body resists poison.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
The other benefit of allying Chapters (or taking an IG ally)...each ally detachment can take 1 Fort.

Now where did you get an idea like that, because it certainly isn't from the 6th edition BRB?

I think I'm thinking about double force org at 2K points...
Regardless, we shall have all our questions/concerns answered in a few weeks.

Termis with jump packs.

WBB is 5+ without Regeneration Orb (30 pts), our "Sergeants" cost another 35+ pts, LD doesn't matter since SM cannot be overrun. I'll glady get LD 8 in return for gaining ATSKNF. And again, having a "better transport" doesn't make the unit better in comparison.

The main advantage Necron Warriors have are the auto-glance on vehicles but in return, SM get access to plasma-weapons and, in general, are more flexible. With Twin-linked, they also become a lot more efficient at shooting despite having the same BS.

I appreciate the caluclations - mind the points cost though. Assume a unit of 10 on both sides. In order to get the Res orb, you have to, at the very least, pay an additional 65 pts. Same cost as another unit of 5 TAC.

No Orb involved, we're looking at:

10 TAC vs. 10 Necron Warriors (shooting)

TAC: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, re-roll every missed shot. ~7 automatic hits, 2 more hits with the re-rolls, 9 hits total. Wound at 4s, 4.5 wounds caused. 4+ saves, ~2 Warriors dead.

Necron Warriors: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 3+ saves, => ~1 SM dead.

Even with the unlikely chance of WBB triggering (unlikely as in .p3 chance), it would be a draw at best.

Not including any (dis)advantages weaponry might bring. Gauss is better vs vehicles at close range whereas a Lascannon is better vs. vehicles at long range, if it is equipped. Hard to compare weaponry as it's situational. Having access to a twin-linked lascannon at that cost, however, not to mention a twin-linked plasma cannon, but that will await judgement.

Not going to compare melee, Necrons get ouright destroyed in melee.

I am waiting with a verdict for the codex as soon as it gets released, but if those rumors stand true, it's either that GW purposefully undercosts a unit (again, not even surprised here) or Necron Warriors are overcosted...and I do not believe the latter.

I don't get why people are so bothered by the new AA not having interceptor. This is not new information, this vehicle already exists. It’s called a Hydra. It is also 75 points, 12/12/10, has 2 twin-linked S:7 Ap:4 guns, and DOES NOT HAVE INTERCEPTOR. Yet it is a fantastic vehicle that performs well and certainly has a place in any IG. This is basically the same vehicle that SM is getting except that the SM version gets to be BS:4.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Spess Mahrins shudn't be affected by poison cuz their body resists poison.

But they are resistant to poison!
Poisonous Dangerous Terrain only wounds them 1 out of 18 times.
A weapon that has a 50% chance to wound a gigantic monstrous creature has the same chance of wounding a Marine.

Yes granted, only tac gets twinlinked, the rest rerolls ones (including vehicles, dakka pred with lass sponsoons will be all the rage) only rerolls ones, thing is we miss on only miss on 1 or 2, so granted its not twin linked but it is still 80% accuracy, so might as well call it psudo-linked.

 Sigvatr wrote:
WBB is 5+ without Regeneration Orb (30 pts), our "Sergeants" cost another 35+ pts, LD doesn't matter since SM cannot be overrun. I'll glady get LD 8 in return for gaining ATSKNF. And again, having a "better transport" doesn't make the unit better in comparison.

The main advantage Necron Warriors have are the auto-glance on vehicles but in return, SM get access to plasma-weapons and, in general, are more flexible. With Twin-linked, they also become a lot more efficient at shooting despite having the same BS.

I appreciate the caluclations - mind the points cost though. Assume a unit of 10 on both sides. In order to get the Res orb, you have to, at the very least, pay an additional 65 pts. Same cost as another unit of 5 TAC.

No Orb involved, we're looking at:

10 TAC vs. 10 Necron Warriors (shooting)

TAC: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, re-roll every missed shot. ~7 automatic hits, 2 more hits with the re-rolls, 9 hits total. Wound at 4s, 4.5 wounds caused. 4+ saves, ~2 Warriors dead.

Necron Warriors: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 3+ saves, => ~1 SM dead.

Even with the unlikely chance of WBB triggering (unlikely as in .p3 chance), it would be a draw at best.

Not including any (dis)advantages weaponry might bring. Gauss is better vs vehicles at close range whereas a Lascannon is better vs. vehicles at long range, if it is equipped. Hard to compare weaponry as it's situational. Having access to a twin-linked lascannon at that cost, however, not to mention a twin-linked plasma cannon, but that will await judgement.

Not going to compare melee, Necrons get ouright destroyed in melee.

I am waiting with a verdict for the codex as soon as it gets released, but if those rumors stand true, it's either that GW purposefully undercosts a unit (again, not even surprised here) or Necron Warriors are overcosted...and I do not believe the latter.

The marines have frag grenades to preserve their inititive
The marines have krak grenades to wreck vehicles and dreads in CC
The marines have pistols, so they can shoot and assault
The marines are immune to the new "fear" rule