Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

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**Dracos**

Delicious QQ over Tactical squads here... For too long they have been an easy pass and easily identified weak-point.

The tears are/will be delicious.

**Exergy**

xxvaderxx wrote:
Yes granted, only tac gets twinlinked, the rest rerolls ones (including vehicles, dakka pred with lass sponsoons will be all the rage) only rerolls ones, thing is we miss on only miss on 1 or 2, so granted its not twin linked but it is still 80% accuracy, so might as well call it psudo-linked.

The reroll 1s is awesome. Of course a ton of SM vehicles have TL weaponry, and reroll 1s on Land Raider is pretty useless.....

**Kangodo**

Sigvatr wrote:
WBB is 5+ without Regeneration Orb (30 pts), our "Sergeants" cost another 35+ pts, LD doesn't matter since SM cannot be overrun. I'll glady get LD 8 in return for gaining ATSKNF. And again, having a "better transport" doesn't make the unit better in comparison.
The main advantage Necron Warriors have are the auto-glance on vehicles but in return, SM get access to plasma-weapons and, in general, are more flexible. With Twin-linked, they also become a lot more efficient at shooting despite having the same BS.
I appreciate the caluclations - mind the points cost though. Assume a unit of 10 on both sides. In order to get the Res orb, you have to, at the very least, pay an additional 65 pts. Same cost as another unit of 5 TAC.
No Orb involved, we're looking at:
10 TAC vs. 10 Necron Warriors (shooting)
TAC: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, re-roll every missed shot. ~7 automatic hits, 2 more hits with the re-rolls, 9 hits total. Wound at 4s, 4.5 wounds caused. 4+ saves, ~2 Warriors dead.
Necron Warriors: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 3+ saves, => ~1 SM dead.
Even with the unlikely chance of WBB triggering (unlikely as in .p3 chance), it would be a draw at best.
Not including any (dis)advantages weaponry might bring. Gauss is better vs vehicles at close range whereas a Lascannon is better vs. vehicles at long range, if it is equipped. Hard to compare weaponry as it's situational. Having access to a twin-linked lascannon at that cost, however, not to mention a twin-linked plasma cannon, but that will await judgement.
Not going to compare melee, Necrons get ouright destroyed in melee.
I am waiting with a verdict for the codex as soon as it gets released, but if those rumors stand true, it's either that GW purposefully undercosts a unit (again, not even surprised here) or Necron Warriors are overcosted...and I do not believe the latter.

1. Having a better transport does make a difference, I will address this in the conclusion.
2. My BA-Sergeant is 36 points and I would rate a Necron Lord much much much higher.
3. Necron Warriors aren't supposed to be flexible, they are just good at everything.
Sure, you might not have plasma against vehicles and I am too tired to do the math, but 15 warriors are going to glance a vehicle much easier.
4. You shouldn't compare Warriors to Marines like that, I facepalm whenever I see someone compare Wraiths to TWC and I will do the same to you.
5. Nice calculation, but double the numbers: 4 warriors dead and 2 marines. With a res-orb you will only have two dead Warriors, which makes it equal.

The conclusion:
I hardly take Tactical Marines but field over 30 Warriors every game. Why? Warriors are better.
Tactical Marines need this cost-reduce so people will start to field them.

**xxvaderxx**

Exergy wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
Yes granted, only tac gets twinlinked, the rest rerolls ones (including vehicles, dakka pred with lass sponsoons will be all the rage) only rerolls ones, thing is we miss on only miss on 1 or 2, so granted its not twin linked but it is still 80% accuracy, so might as well call it psudo-linked.

The reroll 1s is awesome. Of course a ton of SM vehicles have TL weaponry, and reroll 1s on Land Raider is pretty useless.....

It is, but preds will get 2 auto cannons and 2 lass cannon shots, pseudo link for about 100 points if i remember correctly, or a lot of daka pseudo-linked for under 90 points, on AV13, that is interesting to me. Same goes for devastors, even if they get one less ML at the same cost of long fangs, they get about the same fire effect taking accuracy into consideration.

**whigwam**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
whigwam wrote:
Why are people acting like a lack of Interceptor necessarily precludes shooting at ground targets at full BS? Look at the Soulgrinder: the Harvester is one gun with two profiles, one is Skyfire, the other is not. I'm guessing the new tanks may have something similar, allowing them to freely alternate between Skyfiring and ground-firing.

Then again, at a rumored 70-75 points a pop...maybe not.

Unless you're talking about a storm bolter or a hunter-killer missile, then no. The weapon has skyfire, but not interceptor. If a weapon or unit has one but not the other, it uses snap-fire rules.

My point is: who's to say the weapon doesn't have a non-Skyfire shooting profile as well? I remember people having the same complaint when rumors that 'Soulgrinders will have Skyfire' was leaked. "Eww my soulgrinders won't be able to shoot at the ground?!?" It turned out Soulgrinders did indeed have Skyfire...but they also have a shooting profile without Skyfire. No Interceptor...no need to snapfire at ground targets. That may be the case here as well.

**Imperial Deceit**

Warriors are Ld. 10.
Warriors can glance to death vehicles they shouldn't even be able to hurt.
Warriors get back up against weapons that wouldn't even leave a puddle of molten metal, let alone coherent pieces.
Warriors are I2 so frag grenades would be nearly meaningless anyway. (Unless for some reason you decide to assault Orks through cover?)
Warriors basically have rending guns.

**ultimentra**

Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.

**Imperial Deceit**

It may surprise you that not every IG player wants to spam vendettas, and the hellhound isn't even in the same force org. slot and provides a totally different roll then the Hydra.

**ductvader**

Exergy wrote:

The marines have frag grenades to preserve their inititive
The marines have krak grenades to wreck vehicles and dreads in CC
The marines have pistols, so they can shoot and assault
The marines are immune to the new "fear" rule

The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.

That's saying a lot about models that are really good at being good...but suck at being great.
Marines don't have units that have a very narrow focus in what they do.

While this has its own benefits...it means that its not comparable with many xenos and chaos models of similar points.

**dkellyj**

ultimentra wrote:
Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.

QFT!
Vendettas to kill his flyers then hunt characters and creatures (and get to be scoring in 1/3 of the games)
Hellhounds to torch non MEQ mobs (and even then they do pretty well against MEQ). And are also scoring in 1/3 of the games...but most people forget that since its a "tank" and not a "skimmer/flyer."

Wonder if they will take a page from C:SM with the next C:IG...Cadians and Catachans as seperate IG types that can ally together (Cadian Vets get +1 BS, Catachan Vets get +1 WS).

**davou**

Any word about whether telion will get the same allocation gimmick that the assassin gets?

**Imperial Deceit**

Unlikely, as Telion already has special tricks. The assassin pays a premium for that trick. However as a character Telion does get to allocate any rolls of a 6 per the precision shot rules. The enemy still gets to chance a Look out Sir! though.

**Godless-Mimicry**

davou wrote:
Any word about whether telion will get the same allocation gimmick that the assassin gets?

IIRC the rumours said he had the Sniper rule from the rulebook now. Not sure what that does specifically though.

**davou**

so he stays the same cost and looses his precision shots? I was asking if they cannot be LOS'ed away, and he lost his special outright?

Thats awesome

**ductvader**

He shouldn't be as good a sniper as the Vindicare...sniping is all that guy does...Telion on the other hand can help other marines thread the needle with a missile launcher.

**Kangodo**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
IIRC the rumours said he had the Sniper rule from the rulebook now. Not sure what that does specifically though.

The rumour says he has been updated with the sniper rule, which probably means the weapon profile.
That changes nothing about his own personal rule that lets you allocate all hits he makes.

**xxvaderxx**

ultimentra wrote:
Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.

And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.

**Pyriel-**

Kangodo wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
WBB is 5+ without Regeneration Orb (30 pts), our "Sergeants" cost another 35+ pts, LD doesn't matter since SM cannot be overrun. I'll glady get LD 8 in return for gaining ATSKNF. And again, having a "better transport" doesn't make the unit better in comparison.
The main advantage Necron Warriors have are the auto-glance on vehicles but in return, SM get access to plasma-weapons and, in general, are more flexible. With Twin-linked, they also become a lot more efficient at shooting despite having the same BS.
I appreciate the caluclations - mind the points cost though. Assume a unit of 10 on both sides. In order to get the Res orb, you have to, at the very least, pay an additional 65 pts. Same cost as another unit of 5 TAC.
No Orb involved, we're looking at:
10 TAC vs. 10 Necron Warriors (shooting)
TAC: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, re-roll every missed shot. ~7 automatic hits, 2 more hits with the re-rolls, 9 hits total. Wound at 4s, 4.5 wounds caused. 4+ saves, ~2 Warriors dead.
Necron Warriors: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 3+ saves, => ~1 SM dead.
Even with the unlikely chance of WBB triggering (unlikely as in .p3 chance), it would be a draw at best.
Not including any (dis)advantages weaponry might bring. Gauss is better vs vehicles at close range whereas a Lascannon is better vs. vehicles at long range, if it is equipped. Hard to compare weaponry as it's situational. Having access to a twin-linked lascannon at that cost, however, not to mention a twin-linked plasma cannon, but that will await judgement.
Not going to compare melee, Necrons get ouright destroyed in melee.
I am waiting with a verdict for the codex as soon as it gets released, but if those rumors stand true, it's either that GW purposefully undercosts a unit (again, not even surprised here) or Necron Warriors are overcosted...and I do not believe the latter.

1. Having a better transport does make a difference, I will address this in the conclusion.
2. My BA-Sergeant is 36 points and I would rate a Necron Lord much much much higher.
3. Necron Warriors aren't supposed to be flexible, they are just good at everything.
Sure, you might not have plasma against vehicles and I am too tired to do the math, but 15 warriors are going to glance a vehicle much easier.
4. You shouldn't compare Warriors to Marines like that, I facepalm whenever I see someone compare Wraiths to TWC and I will do the same to you.
5. Nice calculation, but double the numbers: 4 warriors dead and 2 marines. With a res-orb you will only have two dead Warriors, which makes it equal.

The conclusion:
I hardly take Tactical Marines but field over 30 Warriors every game. Why? Warriors are better.
Tactical Marines need this cost-reduce so people will start to field them.

It gets even better when he conveniently "forgets" to mention other comparisons like a SM captain vs a necron lord point-wargear-statline wise or the flying croissant circus of death or the best transports in the game etc etc.
Sure, just take tacs out of the dough and whine, that´ll show´em.

It´s sad enough that tacs suck so much that most people only take two simply because they are forced to by the FoC.
I wouldnt mind removing ATSKNF from tacs if SM got other troop options such as hordes of zombies etc but I guess every army is somehow internally balanced.
What points we now save in cheaper tacs will be eaten up by more expensive hammernators or what have you.

As for the new AAA tanks, they are utter rubbish. Why take an AAA tank if you can take a flyer instead? The flyer can kill things no matter if they are enemy flyers or ground targets whereas the tank will be useless as soon as the opponent doesnt bring flyers into the game.
There is no way in hell any of these AAA boxes are going to be seen in tournament games. They are just an reactive opportunity unit that depends on the guesswork of the opponent bringing own flyers or not.

**Agamemnon2**

xxvaderxx wrote:
ultimentra wrote:
Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.

And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.

The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.

**Exergy**

Imperial Deceit wrote:

Warriors are I2 so frag grenades would be nearly meaningless anyway. (Unless for some reason you decide to assault Orks through cover?)
Warriors basically have rending guns.

you can throw grenades
basically rending? as in they are every AP2? Rending weapons ignore armor saves about 33% of the time. (wound on 4+, 1/3 of the wounds ignore saves)

**Brother Weasel**

Pyriel- wrote:

As for the new AAA tanks, they are utter rubbish. Why take an AAA tank if you can take a flyer instead? The flyer can kill things no matter if they are enemy flyers or ground targets whereas the tank will be useless as soon as the opponent doesnt bring flyers into the game.
There is no way in hell any of these AAA boxes are going to be seen in tournament games. They are just an reactive opportunity unit that depends on the guesswork of the opponent bringing own flyers or not.

because they cost half as much as the flier in the HS? Not everyone maxes out thier HS and plopping one or 2 anti flier tanks in seams like a reasonable thing to put out there...

of course, not everything needs to be uber competitive for tournies for it to be a good option in the codex... It's an OPTION that has a role... simple as that...

and comparing warriors to marines is just silly, they are diffrent.. same with adding the transports.. sure the rhino isn't as good, but then it's 35 points, so it shoulnd't be as good.. crons can kill tanks with gauss, marines can make crons run away in shooting, or over run them in CC, it's all a trade off...

**Exergy**

ductvader wrote:
Exergy wrote:

The marines have frag grenades to preserve their inititive
The marines have krak grenades to wreck vehicles and dreads in CC
The marines have pistols, so they can shoot and assault
The marines are immune to the new "fear" rule

The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.

That's saying a lot about models that are really good at being good...but suck at being great.
Marines don't have units that have a very narrow focus in what they do.

While this has its own benefits...it means that its not comparable with many xenos and chaos models of similar points.

why does being generic allow you to ignore basic mechanics of the game?

auto rally and no side effects?
impossible to sweep?
immune to fear?
shooting unit that can shoot, charge, and still strike first through cover?

wouldnt generic things be subject to most rules in the game?

**ultimentra**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
ultimentra wrote:
Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.

And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.

The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.

Cool story bro, I have no problem with taking them. Everyone else gets cheese, everyone else takes cheese, so why not take yours? I know I'm not going to convince you to take a vendettas, since your mind is made up already, but its not like anyone could talk me out of taking them either. People should also not have delusions about them in terms of pure firepower.

Just throwing this out there, taking some IG allies with this new marine codex, you wont need the new AA tanks. You can just take some Vendettas and your AA is set. The new AA tanks are IMO, even more gak than the hydras anyhow, because against an AV12 flyer (like the vendetta for instance) your still glancing on a 5 with strength 7. Those are not good odds. Even with armorbane, the big gun is still only one shot.

**VoidAngel**

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I always thought it was a bit weird that Khan had to buy his ride as a seperate upgrade.

Las, plas, or gas - nobody rides for free, Khan.

**pretre**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.

Best satire of a imperial guard codex critique on Dakka in a long time.

**c0j1r0**

Brother Weasel wrote:of course, not everything needs to be uber competitive for tournies for it to be a good option in the codex... It's an OPTION that has a role... simple as that...

This.

I'm glad someone shares my opinion.

**Saythings**

Any word on how cheap the BT dedicated transport-LRC is?

Rumors had it they would be slightly cheaper for BT-DT :'D

I could finally run 3 LRC in my 2k again!

**Kangodo**

Pyriel- wrote:
It gets even better when he conveniently "forgets" to mention other comparisons like a SM captain vs a necron lord point-wargear-statline wise or the flying croissant circus of death or the best transports in the game etc etc.
Sure, just take tacs out of the dough and whine, that´ll show´em.

It´s sad enough that tacs suck so much that most people only take two simply because they are forced to by the FoC.
I wouldnt mind removing ATSKNF from tacs if SM got other troop options such as hordes of zombies etc but I guess every army is somehow internally balanced.
What points we now save in cheaper tacs will be eaten up by more expensive hammernators or what have you.

Yeah, his complaining has no basis at all.
If there was any truth in all of that, than Dark Angels should already be beating Necrons all the time.

I'm just glad to play Blood Angels in that aspect: I have dreads, DC, Sanguinaries, Scouts and Assault Marines I can take over those silly Tacticals.
The only reason I ever field them is because: A) I only have 10 ASM at the moment and B) We're playing a really big game and even my dreads, DC and Sanguinary Guard aren't enough troops.

As for the new AAA tanks, they are utter rubbish. Why take an AAA tank if you can take a flyer instead? The flyer can kill things no matter if they are enemy flyers or ground targets whereas the tank will be useless as soon as the opponent doesnt bring flyers into the game.
There is no way in hell any of these AAA boxes are going to be seen in tournament games. They are just an reactive opportunity unit that depends on the guesswork of the opponent bringing own flyers or not.

Because they are cheaper?
Because you like the models?

The only thing I don't like is its limited use. Do they expect you to ask your friends: "Are you playing flyers today? Aah nice, then I will take my AA-tank."?
They are a useless if the opponent doesn't have flyers and you end up feeling bad because you spend points on them.
On the other hand: What are 70 points in a friendly match of 1500?

**Agamemnon2**

pretre wrote:
Best satire of a imperial guard codex critique on Dakka in a long time.

Never let it be said that I grow weary or slapdash in my old age. I suppose it's a testimony to the unencouraging nature of these rumors that I want to talk about anything other than what's coming out next.

Still, with my Kickstarter miniatures a month away still, one does need something to occupy time with.

**VoidAngel**

Kangodo wrote:
c0j1r0 wrote:
Spess Mahrins shudn't be affected by poison cuz their body resists poison.
But they are resistant to poison!
Poisonous Dangerous Terrain only wounds them 1 out of 18 times.
A weapon that has a 50% chance to wound a gigantic monstrous creature has the same chance of wounding a Marine.

"The poison is in the dose."

You, in fact, are resistant to arsenic. You are just not very resistant to 50cc's of arsenic at once....

A Marine may well shrug off a single poisoned scrap of shard. He will not do so well when hit with a splinter cannon and ends up looking like rag doll flung through a window factory...