Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

If TACs drop 2 points in price and have ap 2 salvo weapon,they may see an increase in use as you would be able to take more and arm to kill HEAVY infantry (terminators).

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

Well I think UM players will field more tacticals. I think everyone else will be happy their two tactical squads are cheaper so they can spend even more points elsewhere. LOL

The problem with the Sallies CT is that you have to get into assault range to use all those flamers. So unless you run an all drop pod force, good luck flaming anyone. And your Redeemer will die before it gets in range of anything.

 SickSix wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

Well I think UM players will field more tacticals. I think everyone else will be happy their two tactical squads are cheaper so they can spend even more points elsewhere. LOL

The problem with the Sallies CT is that you have to get into assault range to use all those flamers. So unless you run an all drop pod force, good luck flaming anyone. And your Redeemer will die before it gets in range of anything.

What if you take two?

Crazyterran wrote:

magodedisco wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
God I hope that Pedro Kantor stays in there with somewhat the same rules or some extra tricks with Sternguard.

I just hope he no longer gives mandatory Stubborn. It is so much worse than ATSKNF this edition that it's not even funny. Just ask Dark Angels...

Consider that Stubborn didn't replace/remove ATSKNF... (seriously, people complain about ATSKNF and don't know exactly what it does?)

And there is no more Combat Tactics to let us choose to run away... hopefully it's one of our Warlord Traits >.>

When a Tac squad/shooty unit gets caught in melee and takes some mean casualties, you'll be glad you don't have stubborn, which would force you to more than likely stick around and continue to get stomped rather than backing out and firing on your turn.

Personally I've always been a fan of having at least 3 scoring units at 1,500 points. Now it looks like the Marines are getting cheaper but it's likely safe to bet their wargear goes up to match their lowered costs. I'm okay with this since everything else (for the most part anyway) seems to also be going down in points here and there so it should be easier to fit options in here and there.

 SickSix wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

Well I think UM players will field more tacticals. I think everyone else will be happy their two tactical squads are cheaper so they can spend even more points elsewhere. LOL

The problem with the Sallies CT is that you have to get into assault range to use all those flamers. So unless you run an all drop pod force, good luck flaming anyone. And your Redeemer will die before it gets in range of anything.

Do people run Salamander lists without drop pods?

I have to agree with the LRR sentiment. TL or not, Flamestorm is awesome, but it's pretty much impossible to use in 6th.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.

I disagree. First off the Fleet on Assault Marines is almost exactly the same as being able to use the Jump Pack in the Assualt Phase as both let you re-roll your charges.

The Raven Guard get a 24" max charge range (12" move +12" max charge distance on a good roll). The UM Marines get a 12" move, and fleet charge or a 6" move and a re-rollable charge. It can still got 24" but the Raven Guard get a free hit on the way in adding to the number of wounds they can force on their targets. Really all the UM get is a re-rollable run roll, but I don't see why anyone would want that when they could have Stealth to keep their Assault Marines alive longer.

You disagree with math? Fleet is much better because you pick which dice to reroll, rather than having to roll all of them.
Doesn't sound like much, but it is a big difference.

The run thing is also good too.

The problem with the HoW attack is you need to have a model in b2b to do one, hence unsure if worth giving up fleet for full reroll.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 ace101 wrote:
After seeing the rumors about chapter tactics, im concerned. I really want to have blood ravens tactics, yet they arent related to the first founding chapters (seeing as they are 1k sons loyalists). If the chapter tactics rumors are true, what tactics are we blood ravens fanboys supposed to choose?

Typed on XBox live.

Drop Pods at 12 men was great as you could fit a full squad and a character, letting you combat squad when you drop. At the same time, though 10 means you have to make choices, and the model is clearly meant for 10.

Be thankful it's 10, the original one was a forge world release and it only had five spaces and was modelled such. It also couldn't take terminators and had no weapon capability.

Blood Ravens? No official founding chapter (unless they list one in the new codex) so pick what you want. I'd go with UM so you can run Tiggy and Telion.

Wouldn't they fit better with the Blood Angels? All that instability, Mephiston etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus they are both red so visually similar.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

I have to agree with the LRR sentiment. TL or not, Flamestorm is awesome, but it's pretty much impossible to use in 6th.

At least it has the potential to kill something, unlike the LRC

Speaking as someone who thinks that Tactical Squads are one of the most unfairly underestimated units out there, I'm glad to see them getting more recognition, though now there's the risk of them being called OP if you take the Tactical trait. Too bad.

I ran three Tactical Squads before it was cool...

Blood Ravens are definitely not a BA successor chapter. Says so in the BA codex.

While they are rumoured to be derived from Thousand Sons, I'd be more inclined to use the UM rules and use Tigurius as their Chief Librarian/Chapter Master before he fell to Chaos.

I'd probably use the IF rules, specifically Lysander's for Gabriel Angelos, for everything after DoW 2.

TechMarine1 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

If TACs drop 2 points in price and have ap 2 salvo weapon,they may see an increase in use as you would be able to take more and arm to kill HEAVY infantry (terminators).

Or you know, terminators can just stay outside of your 18'' range when you stand or 15'' range when you move and shoot you...Same with other big boys like riptide,wraithknight/wraithlord... they will just outrange you and kill you from distance...so yeah, good luck killing everything with your crappy low range salvo grav guns. Heck. Other marines can also just stay at 24'' and kill you with plasma guns which you gave up.

Yea, they drop 2 points, but now you have to pay for everything, they are same as DA tacticals. So in the end, you will only save 10pts, which is 1 pt drop. Not a big saving is it?

 Fezman wrote:
Speaking as someone who thinks that Tactical Squads are one of the most unfairly underestimated units out there, I'm glad to see them getting more recognition, though now there's the risk of them being called OP if you take the Tactical trait. Too bad.

I ran three Tactical Squads before it was cool...

I agree, I've always liked Tactical Squads as well. Had a minimum of three. Then again I actually played Ultramarine painted Marines so I would have felt weird not having a decent showing of Tactical Marines.

Tactical Squads are probably the key to winning games, when I shifted to 3-4 Tacticals in Rhino's and started to religiously engineer situations where I could get them inside of 12" my Squads became death dealers. The key that I found to it, is to use two Squads to deal with one Enemy Squad, yes it's overkill in a sense but gunning down an entire enemy unit in one round is massively demoralising for an opponent.

Limited Edition Space Marine Codex (online only) $115
500 copies only for each book (numbered endpaper)

1. Iron Hands
2. Imperial Fists
3. Ultramarines
4. Ravenguard
5. Salanders
6. White Scars

When they say online do they mean E-books or do they mean they mean it's physical but you can only order it online?

 smurfORnot wrote:

TechMarine1 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

If TACs drop 2 points in price and have ap 2 salvo weapon,they may see an increase in use as you would be able to take more and arm to kill HEAVY infantry (terminators).

Or you know, terminators can just stay outside of your 18'' range when you stand or 15'' range when you move and shoot you...Same with other big boys like riptide,wraithknight/wraithlord... they will just outrange you and kill you from distance...so yeah, good luck killing everything with your crappy low range salvo grav guns. Heck. Other marines can also just stay at 24'' and kill you with plasma guns which you gave up.

Yea, they drop 2 points, but now you have to pay for everything, they are same as DA tacticals. So in the end, you will only save 10pts, which is 1 pt drop. Not a big saving is it?

If only there were some kind of transport vehicle that let you get close to whatever you want to shoot without having to cross the board first...

 mwnciboo wrote:

Limited Edition Space Marine Codex (online only) $115
500 copies only for each book (numbered endpaper)

1. Iron Hands
2. Imperial Fists
3. Ultramarines
4. Ravenguard
5. Salanders
6. White Scars

When they say online do they mean E-books or do they mean they mean it's physical but you can only order it online?

Pretty sure it just means that you have to order directly from the GW site and that you can't get them in the store.

 mwnciboo wrote:
When they say online do they mean E-books or do they mean they mean it's physical but you can only order it online?

-500 copies
-numbered endpaper
-Special front

It's physical and you can only order it online.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 smurfORnot wrote:

TechMarine1 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

If TACs drop 2 points in price and have ap 2 salvo weapon,they may see an increase in use as you would be able to take more and arm to kill HEAVY infantry (terminators).

Or you know, terminators can just stay outside of your 18'' range when you stand or 15'' range when you move and shoot you...Same with other big boys like riptide,wraithknight/wraithlord... they will just outrange you and kill you from distance...so yeah, good luck killing everything with your crappy low range salvo grav guns. Heck. Other marines can also just stay at 24'' and kill you with plasma guns which you gave up.

Yea, they drop 2 points, but now you have to pay for everything, they are same as DA tacticals. So in the end, you will only save 10pts, which is 1 pt drop. Not a big saving is it?

If only there were some kind of transport vehicle that let you get close to whatever you want to shoot without having to cross the board first...

Oh, I know. What is a Drop Pod? (and I know you were being sarcastic)

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.

I disagree. First off the Fleet on Assault Marines is almost exactly the same as being able to use the Jump Pack in the Assualt Phase as both let you re-roll your charges.

The Raven Guard get a 24" max charge range (12" move +12" max charge distance on a good roll). The UM Marines get a 12" move, and fleet charge or a 6" move and a re-rollable charge. It can still got 24" but the Raven Guard get a free hit on the way in adding to the number of wounds they can force on their targets. Really all the UM get is a re-rollable run roll, but I don't see why anyone would want that when they could have Stealth to keep their Assault Marines alive longer.

You disagree with math? Fleet is much better because you pick which dice to reroll, rather than having to roll all of them.
Doesn't sound like much, but it is a big difference.

The run thing is also good too.

The problem with the HoW attack is you need to have a model in b2b to do one, hence unsure if worth giving up fleet for full reroll.

Raven Guard can charge over intervening terrain without penalty, unlike Fleet though. HoW is just a nice bonus, I'll admit, but it's still more attacks which the unit frankly needs as Vanilla ASM don't have things like Furious Charge to boost their damage capabilities.

EDIT: I just wanted to also point out that even if you charge into cover you're not slowed when your using a Jump Pack. It's just a dangerous terrain test for all the models and those are pretty easy to live through now that you can take armor saves against them.

I'm sure people will of worked this out but I saw it with my own eyes today:

Pre order 31 Aug 13
Release 7 Sep 13

ids1984 wrote:
I'm sure people will of worked this out but I saw it with my own eyes today:

Pre order 31 Aug 13
Release 7 Sep 13

Well naturally. That's the last Saturday of this month and the first of next. The really surprising thing would have been if we'd seen another 2 week pre-order like Apoc did.

ClockworkZion wrote:

ids1984 wrote:
I'm sure people will of worked this out but I saw it with my own eyes today:

Pre order 31 Aug 13
Release 7 Sep 13

Well naturally. That's the last Saturday of this month and the first of next. The really surprising thing would have been if we'd seen another 2 week pre-order like Apoc did.

There was another preorder on the calender a couple weeks later as well, but thats crossing into another thread...

I actually like the look of the Centurions... I'll be damned! :0

they'd look super cool in an Iron hands army, torn and with some yellow/black stripes on, giving them a heavy workload feel.

still the power armorception going on is a bit...wierd

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?

I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?

My point exactly. I see to few tacs around here because they just dont do much. In our meta they are often just viewed as a necessary evil taken in 2 or at most 3 units and used only to grab objectives, try not to get killed of and at most to support other better units as they are far to weak to do anything on their own even when massed.

The people around here who really love(d) tacs tried time and again to make armies that had 4-6 tacs in them and failed miserably.

Would be nice to see them get a point reduction but I dont know how much that will help. DA tacs have stubborn an it is not exactly as I see them being heavily used.

I think from the rumors the Devastator box isn't getting recut, so will the Tac box be the only source of heavy grav weapons?

 Fezman wrote:
I ran three Tactical Squads before it was cool...

And I had great success with three 10 man tactical squads and one 5 man scout squad at 2000 points. Due to combat squads they became so numerous that many opponents had a really hard time to deal with them all. Seven scooring umits was a beast in most fights. I don't really see this changing.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Instead of repeating my thoughts a dozen times all over the place I went with doing a single post on my thoughts on these rumors: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marine-rumors-closer-look.html

Plus if you haven't had a chance to see all the rumored rules so far, there they are!

A good review though I disagree with some of your opinions regarding Home brews and chapter tactics. I feel that it's a bit snobbish to frown on people using a home brew for variation in their games. I mean its fine for someone to show up with 4 SM armies all painted in first founding chapters each week so they can mix it up, but it's WAAC behavior to be creative enough to make your own chapter and be able to mix it up from time to time at will without spending 4X the cost?

I also disagree with your review of the IF and RG chapter tactics. As it stands there is no reason to ever field IF over Ultras unless you are facing massed tanks and Fortress spam each week and if not for stealth I would say the same for RG. It's also ironic you don't see how fielding the UM is at an advantage since you disagree with homebrews mixing it up, since the Ultras have free reign to mix it up between three options then they are the most flexible and flavorful choice for anyone playing by your standards.

Also disagree with your take on mixing characters and other CT. This was a golden opportunity for them to allow players to make second founding and home brews similar to their heritage but divergent enough to be called their own. For example, why shouldn't iron hands successors be able to use IH CT and vulcan to represent a fabrication hero who makes their "welders" more reliable? This just makes the push toward UM that much more tempting as now I can't field Tigurious in my soul drinkers without being pigeon holed into their CT which I don't think fit as well as say RG or IH's where the increased durability could represent their psychic precognition.... Really unfortunate IMO.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Personally I've always been a fan of having at least 3 scoring units at 1,500 points. Now it looks like the Marines are getting cheaper but it's likely safe to bet their wargear goes up to match their lowered costs. I'm okay with this since everything else (for the most part anyway) seems to also be going down in points here and there so it should be easier to fit options in here and there.

If you take the DA list as a basis, as per the rumor, my melta/lascannon tacticals save 5 points if you go for the sgt's ld 9 upgrade.

Any word yet on whether or not sternguard combi-weapons jumped to 10 pts a piece like DA company vets? Not looking forward to them getting more expensive.

 d-usa wrote:
I think from the rumors the Devastator box isn't getting recut, so will the Tac box be the only source of heavy grav weapons?

The only heavy Grav Weapons are the Grav Cannons which are restricted to the Devastator Centurions. The Grav Gun is a Special Weapon.