Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

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**vim_the_good**

I don’t quite get why people are saying things like “At last Tac squads will be worth taking”. I find them to be great as they are. Combat squading plus Razor and they are very versatile. The only thing I would want changed is the ability to take a second SW instead of a HW but that would just be a bonus rather than making them “playable at last”.

Looking forward to this release anyway. Hope Mr Ward does as good a job with this as he did with Necrons and 5th C:SM

**ClockworkZion**

vim_the_good wrote:
I don’t quite get why people are saying things like “At last Tac squads will be worth taking”. I find them to be great as they are. Combat squading plus Razor and they are very versatile. The only thing I would want changed is the ability to take a second SW instead of a HW but that would just be a bonus rather than making them “playable at last”.

Looking forward to this release anyway. Hope Mr Ward does as good a job with this as he did with Necrons and 5th C:SM

Cruddace wrote this one.

**ClassicCarraway**

I personally am offended that GW found it too OP for IF sternguard to re-roll 1s with special ammo but are perfectly fine with UM sternguard doing it. Heck, they even get to re-roll combi shots.

Seriously, one special character that just makes them scoring is crossing the line????

**streamdragon**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Cruddace wrote this one.

As both a Nid and Sisters of Battle player, I really want 'Cruddaced' to replace the term 'Nerfed'. "Oh man, the Venerable Dreadnaught got cruddace'd HARDCORE!"

Then I remember that he wrote the IG codex, and just sort of die inside.

**DogofWar1**

ClassicCarraway wrote:
I personally am offended that GW found it too OP for IF sternguard to re-roll 1s with special ammo but are perfectly fine with UM sternguard doing it. Heck, they even get to re-roll combi shots.

Seriously, one special character that just makes them scoring is crossing the line????

This is my view on Stern as well. I'm not terribly angry, a couple five man + razorback squads are useful, but I feel like it wouldn't have broken anything to allow Sternguard a reroll through IF OR making them troops. Consider that when they're scoring, you have to buy Kantor (rumored to be 185) plus 2 tac squads before they can even hit the field. Giving them rerolls of 1 is not going to wildly unbalance the IF.

Alternatively, if they made them troops I wouldn't mind not rerolling 1s.

I wouldn't have minded them costing 25 points base either, of we got one of those 2 things.

Regardless, I think it can work. Libbies are cheap, and I'll probably ally in Tigurius (through the rumored allying between chapters within the book), allowing me to have 2 squads with prescience plus scoring. I'll have to pay for the razortacs, but those give some solid ranged firepowe and backline.holding capacity, so it should be fine.

**davou**

vim_the_good wrote:
I don’t quite get why people are saying things like “At last Tac squads will be worth taking”. I find them to be great as they are. Combat squading plus Razor and they are very versatile. The only thing I would want changed is the ability to take a second SW instead of a HW but that would just be a bonus rather than making them “playable at last”.

Looking forward to this release anyway. Hope Mr Ward does as good a job with this as he did with Necrons and 5th C:SM

Considering what other armies get around the cost of a Razor, it's laughable.

Tau get a pirhanna for less points, that can drop off two drones, that then become a disposable jet pack unit with 4 str5 shots, get to move around like a fast skimmer, and can score in 1/6th of the missions.

Eldar get (for about double the cost of a useful Razor) a tank that is nigh on un-killable, super fast, is almost the most shooty model in the game, deadly accurate, carries more dudes, and is incidentally a very decent anti-air unit by sheer weight of fire. Dont forget, it's also up there with the longest range guns in the game).

Necrons get for (just under twice the cost of an effective razor) a flyer transport that has a TL tesla gun and does not hurt whats inside if it goes boom. They also have the anihillation barge for about the cost of 1.6 useful razorbacks. This thing has av13, skimmer, 6 tesla shots, and the opption to take gauss.

Orks get what almost ammounts to a razorback, but with tons of options for gear, fast vehicle, and open topped to deliver assault units. Also, when it explodes, the damage is only str 3, and there's a very good chance that what was inside gets to scoot forward another 7 inches, all for less points.

I can go on and on, but razorback is absolutely not one of the selling points of the tactical squad, especially when you consider that whats inside looses its ability to shoot out the top.

**ZebioLizard2**

Kirasu wrote:

Or it's simply because they want to release their codex's faster, and generally sod off testing.

I'd love to have the Warriors of Chaos ported over for CSM..

So you want a totally overcosted and fairly bad army thats only saving grace is the massively untested Demon prince of nurgle that can't be killed? and the manticore that is extremely good for a monster. I guess that's a successful book.. 2 models! I've seen warriors of chaos armies with around 14 total models because the only things worth taking are the demon prince + manticore.

Really? I havn't played Fantasy in quite sometime, but they were doing okay for a while after release.

**Pyriel-**

This one I just don't understand. How can every space marine Chapter Master be W4 A4, yet the Dark Angels Chapter Master's are only W3 A3? Things like this should be consistent from chapter to chapter, no?

Those are Company Masters for the DA (Captains for other chapters). The DA Chapter Master (Supreme Grand Master Azrael) is in fact W4 and A4.

GK grand masters?

I can go on and on, but razorback is absolutely not one of the selling points of the tactical squad, especially when you consider that whats inside looses its ability to shoot out the top.

Exactly. A tin can that dies as soon as someone looks at it with a overpriced weapon on it´s roof. Not my idea of powerful unit.

**Crazyterran**

Hulksmash wrote:
No offense to all the people claiming books are being intentionally powered up and that the game is unbalanced but I honestly can't see it.

Are non-6th edition armies hurting a bit more than 6th editions? Some but by not all by any means. Do all 6th edition books stack up competitive wise vs. each other? Certainly.

The inclusion of allies has actually oddly balanced the game. The current issue is the pace. Because of the pace most players aren't able to adapt like normal to the new books being released and without time to adjust are just throwing their hands up in the air and screaming broken or unbalanced.

Anyways, back to C:SM. I can say that Tacs are going to finally be worth taking. DA tacs are solid but not quite good enough outside of a 5-man combi/special weapon in a drop pod. The chapter tactics are going to make them worthwhile in at least Ultramarines, White Scars, and Ravenguard. I see Salamanders as the ultimate ally contingent with 3-4 cheap flamer heavy drop podding units for around 600pts.

But the point is people will actually take Tacticals which even with the ability to not be overrun just haven't stood up as a viable troop unit in 5th and 6th edition to this point.

And as for the army wide shooting PE which Ultras are getting it's being blown way out of proportion. The only unit that'll benefit heavily is the Centurions. There aren't many other places this is going to shift the bar. Unless people mount up again it won't matter on tanks since people should be taking whirlwinds, centurions, and thunderfires for heavy support with maybe an anti-flyer tank thrown in. Fast attack units aren't taken to commonly by SM players but even there it's either already twin-linked (bikes) or not putting out to many shots for it's point value. Yes, sternguard get a boost but it's going to depend on the special ammo cost as to their usefulness. Shooty termies would benefit but who takes those in an army with so many solid elite choices.

Basically wait for the codex for costs on weapons and wargear but also for specific wordings. But I can see numerous instances where I'd prefer the WS, RG, IH, or Salamanders. The only one I can't see using based on rumours is the IF. Guess we'll wait and see but seriously, the game isn't broken and marines aren't going to break it. Just maybe give them tools to stand alone instead of as an ally or with major allies.

***Edit***

And yes, without a sergeant the point difference between DA Tacs and SM Tacs is currently 5 points assuming Melta, Combi-Weapon, and Missile/MM. Which is why DA Tacs aren't that great and are only primarily used from what I've seen in a 5-man drop pod w/combi and special for 120-130 points depending on the special. Something that now SM will be able to do but with benefits which will make me want to bring more than 2 5-mans and bring full 10-mans on top of it.

My Landspeeders are going to appreciate the Ultramarines tactical doctrine. However, people are blowing the Tactical Doctrine way out of proportion - bike armies are going to like the White Scars rule better, areas with metas that still have lots of tanks will like the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard will be good with Scouts as Troops and the newly buffed VVs, etc.

My Vindicators won't care about the Tactical Doctrine... but I'm also tempted to drop the Vindicators if I can get equivalent points of something else that'll do their job better with the Ultramarines Tactical Doctrine. Though, I'm interested to hear why you think Whirlwinds are worth it - they aren't really worth it in the DA book for the same price, considering all you get is a S5 large blast.

And I'd imagine Sternguard get their ammo for free - the combi weapons are going to be the real 'deal breaker'. If they are 10ppm like the DA book, then, they are now 32ppm and even more expensive than their current variant, on top of the Pedro price increase.

(There are enough tanks/terminators/T5 in my area to make Vindicators worth it, which is why I bring them. If it was all Guard/Orks/Space Fairies...)

Pyriel- wrote:

I can go on and on, but razorback is absolutely not one of the selling points of the tactical squad, especially when you consider that whats inside looses its ability to shoot out the top.

Exactly. A tin can that dies as soon as someone looks at it with a overpriced weapon on it´s roof. Not my idea of powerful unit.

Yeeep. If you are going to give your guys rides, either Drop Pod to/near an objective, or take Rhinos for the free 12 - 18" of movement and Searchlights for your big guns. (Remember, Search Lights don't need to hit, or even do damage - all you need to do is have declared a target and be allowed to shoot. (so no flat outs/smokes and SLs, naturally)

**Fayric**

Its funny how tacticals can be considered so bad and grey hunters considered so good.
Shows how little change the Tacs really need eh?

I find it hard to pity Troops with marine statline and 3+ armour, + a range of wargear, fancy weapons and droppods at their disposal.

I dont want to be that kind of guy, but if people have a problem with tacticals, they are probably not playing them right and just
expect every unit to aoutowin any conflict theyapproach.

**Exergy**

Fayric wrote:
Its funny how tacticals can be considered so bad and grey hunters considered so good.
Shows how little change the Tacs really need eh?

I find it hard to pity Troops with marine statline and 3+ armour, + a range of wargear, fancy weapons and droppods at their disposal.

I dont want to be that kind of guy, but if people have a problem with tacticals, they are probably not playing them right and just
expect every unit to aoutowin any conflict theyapproach.

Double Special Weapon(second one free)
TDA cheap sergeant
Ubergrit
Counter Attack
Banner of Reroll 1s
Hidden guy with rending

So 10 TAC marines with veteran sergeant and plasma gun are 165
11 Grey Hunters with veteran sergeant and doulbe plasma gun are 183
those extra 18 points get you ubergrit, counter attack, an extra plasma gun and an extra marine.

Tac marines are fine, with their fancy tactics they are very good, but GH are another level of cheese

**Kangodo**

People don't have a problem with Tacticals.
They are just performing better with almost every other unit, which makes the Tacticals useless.

Grey Hunters are awesome because they are:
-Cheaper
-Have more attacks
-Have hidden powerfists
-Counter-Attack
-A one-use PE
-Mark of the Wulfen

I wouldn't call that 'little change', I would hardly call them Tactical Marines.

**Hulksmash**

Fayric wrote:
Its funny how tacticals can be considered so bad and grey hunters considered so good.
Shows how little change the Tacs really need eh?

I find it hard to pity Troops with marine statline and 3+ armour, + a range of wargear, fancy weapons and droppods at their disposal.

I dont want to be that kind of guy, but if people have a problem with tacticals, they are probably not playing them right and just
expect every unit to aoutowin any conflict theyapproach.

"I don't wanna be that kind of guy" but someone hasn't been playing much 6th edition if he thinks tacticals are usable in their current format for SM or BA. Grey Hunters are solid for thier points. In 5th they were excellent, in 6th with the incease in firepower and the decrease in combat power they are pointed correctly. DA are again, servicable, but best used as 5 dudes in a DP with special/combi. What chapter tactics will do will be to boost the DA servicability into a full unit usability.

That said SM marines dont' have anything (outside the stat and armor save) that you mention until you hit 10 models. That's a heavy investment. BA only have the drop pod but ditto on the no fancy weapons or wargear until 10 models are reached.

Let's comapre shall we?

Current Tactical Squad: 10 (since you can only get heavies & specials at 10) SM Tacticals in Rhino/Pod w/Combi-Weapon, Melta and Multi-Melta/Missile Launcher - 220

20 Eldar Guardian w/Warlock & 2 Heavies that aren't missiles - 255
20 Kroot w/1 hound - 125 (note, you could round it out with 3 Rapid Firing St7 AP4 Range 48" dudes for another 75pts)
20 Pink Horrors/Plague Bearers - 180
10 Eldar Jetbikes w/3 Cannon - 200
20 Dark Eldar w/2 Dark Lances - 230
30 Shoota Boyz w/PK Nob and 3 Rokkits - 245
10 Grey Hunters w/2 Melta in a Rhino/Pod - 190
10 CSM in Rhino w/Melta, Combi, and Standard Heavy - 205
15 Necron Warriors - 195 (270 w/Res Lord)
10 Necron Immortals - 170 (245 w/Res Lord)
10 Strikes w/Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 285 (drop the rhino and psybolt and they'll still murder the SM Tacticals)

The current marines don't have a snowballs chance against any of these units. And that's on a troop only scale. Once you start building armies the weakness is magnified because this isn't like having poor FA, Elites, or HS. This is a force org slot you need to win games and so have to put point into. Points that steadily don't produce for the rest of your army like other armies troops currently do increasing your reliance on other slots and making your army easier to defang.

**creeping-deth87**

I don't want to sift through 124 pages of thread, but I have to ask: did Templars get rolled into this codex?

**Hulksmash**

Yes

**mwnciboo**

DogofWar1 wrote:
ClassicCarraway wrote:
I personally am offended that GW found it too OP for IF sternguard to re-roll 1s with special ammo but are perfectly fine with UM sternguard doing it. Heck, they even get to re-roll combi shots.

Seriously, one special character that just makes them scoring is crossing the line????

This is my view on Stern as well. I'm not terribly angry, a couple five man + razorback squads are useful, but I feel like it wouldn't have broken anything to allow Sternguard a reroll through IF OR making them troops. Consider that when they're scoring, you have to buy Kantor (rumored to be 185) plus 2 tac squads before they can even hit the field. Giving them rerolls of 1 is not going to wildly unbalance the IF.

Alternatively, if they made them troops I wouldn't mind not rerolling 1s.

I wouldn't have minded them costing 25 points base either, of we got one of those 2 things.

Regardless, I think it can work. Libbies are cheap, and I'll probably ally in Tigurius (through the rumored allying between chapters within the book), allowing me to have 2 squads with prescience plus scoring. I'll have to pay for the razortacs, but those give some solid ranged firepowe and backline.holding capacity, so it should be fine.

Couple of things I thought of during this which are open to interpretation....

1. Vengeance Rounds, do they get the re-roll if they roll a one? If so this means vengeance rounds have more utility. Or this rule is broken because 1 is a gets hot?
2. Hellfire Rounds, combined with re-roll to hit = Epic.
3. Snapfire - So they would get a Re-roll if they roll a 1 on an Overwatch shoot?
4. Can Sternies therefore snapfire Hellfires (I was playing as if they could? Because surely you can decide the type of round you snapfire?).

Haven't played enough 6th Ed to be sure of myself here so if anyone could set me straight I would be much obliged...

**Rinkydink**

All the rumours point to no re-rolls in Sternguard I'm afraid.

**Lobokai**

creeping-deth87 wrote:
I don't want to sift through 124 pages of thread, but I have to ask: did Templars get rolled into this codex?

you could have at least read the first post (the title told you to look there)

**SickSix**

creeping-deth87 wrote:
I don't want to sift through 124 pages of thread, but I have to ask: did Templars get rolled into this codex?

Coudn't even be arsed with the first post eh?

To answer your question, no, BT have actually been eaten by Tyranids. Read the Tyranid rumor thread.

**DogofWar1**

Wat the heck? The thing said it double posted, then when I edited it, and updated, the first of the double posting disappeared.

*sigh*

Basically, the post was about how tacticals frankly haven't been that good, they cost too much considering how much they require you to pick your poison, and all their fancy rules don't help much when your opponent can chew through 5+ models a turn if they're even a little bit specialized in shooting or assault.

Dropping their points cost doesn't make them suddenly amazing, after all DA tacs aren't used en masse, but combining lowered costs with chapter tactics hopefully makes them capable of making their points back without requiring unreasonably favorable matchups. UM tacticals might even go beyond that, 20 bolter shots, TL, likely resulting in 18 hits should actually make them strong enough to chew through lightly armored units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rinkydink wrote:
All the rumours point to no re-rolls in Sternguard I'm afraid.

They can probably reroll 1s for regular boltgun shots, the rules seem to say no rerolling special ammo shots, but if you're rerolling regular bolter shots.....

**Eihnlazer**

so lets make a new rule for bolters.

Explosive: On a to wound roll of a 6 a bolter round deals 2 wounds of damage.

**Alpharius**

I have to admit - I like that!

**Exergy**

Hulksmash wrote:

"I don't wanna be that kind of guy" but someone hasn't been playing much 6th edition if he thinks tacticals are usable in their current format for SM or BA. Grey Hunters are solid for thier points. In 5th they were excellent, in 6th with the incease in firepower and the decrease in combat power they are pointed correctly. DA are again, servicable, but best used as 5 dudes in a DP with special/combi. What chapter tactics will do will be to boost the DA servicability into a full unit usability.

That said SM marines dont' have anything (outside the stat and armor save) that you mention until you hit 10 models. That's a heavy investment. BA only have the drop pod but ditto on the no fancy weapons or wargear until 10 models are reached.

Let's comapre shall we?

Current Tactical Squad: 10 (since you can only get heavies & specials at 10) SM Tacticals in Rhino/Pod w/Combi-Weapon, Melta and Multi-Melta/Missile Launcher - 220
20 Dark Eldar w/2 Dark Lances - 230
10 CSM in Rhino w/Melta, Combi, and Standard Heavy - 205

The current marines don't have a snowballs chance against any of these units. And that's on a troop only scale. Once you start building armies the weakness is magnified because this isn't like having poor FA, Elites, or HS. This is a force org slot you need to win games and so have to put point into. Points that steadily don't produce for the rest of your army like other armies troops currently do increasing your reliance on other slots and making your army easier to defang.

20 DE with dark lances? Really? A 9 point T3 5+ save guy with a str3 or 4 rapid fire weapon? Those 25 point Dark Lances that are worse against anything but AV14 than a 20 point lascannon? A choice that pratically MUST have a 70 point vehicle to be viable that you failed to mention.

How are CSM better? They dont have chapter tactics, they dont have ATSKNF. They can take marks, but none of them are worth the points. They MUST take a veteran sergeant who MUST challenge in an edition when combat sergeants arent worth it and challenges are only good if you have the choice. The only thing they do that C:SM tacticals cannot do is come stock with CCW pistol instead of bolter or take double special weapons at 10 men. Sure they can have 20 models if you like, sure they can pay 40 points for a 6++ or fearless or +1 inititive but what do you really want to do?

Neither of these choices has ATSKNF, an incredible ability

**paqman**

wtwlf123 wrote:
Fielding a yellow army with ultramarines rules isn't powergaming. At all. The only thing that would be egregious would be attempting to mix chapter tactics with other chapter's special characters (which you can't do). So long as every model on the board is legal, what does it matter what color it is? Why would you want to encourage players to prime their armies black rather than bring a fully painted force to the table?

Using Kantor to make Sternguard score when you're trying to use the UM Tactical Doctrine would be powergaming. But fielding a totally legal army from the codex that's incidentally painted up in a different color is not. Anybody that would whine about something like that isn't a player I'd be remotely interested in playing against anyways (considering that there's nothing wrong with that).

spamthulhu wrote:
I am amazed that people think Tactical marines are overpowered.

What game have you played that a tactical marine squad overwhelmed your forces and killed more points than they costed? I can't remember a time for my army. In fact they usually stand around taking pot shots at people or unload out of a rhino and try to rapid fire something to death and usually fail.

To all the people who keep thinking that Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultra Marines, White Scars, etc.... are all different armies. Whoa. They aren't. You have little toy soldiers with armor on the field. They are ALL space marines. They have a little fluff to go along with them but in the end you have about 4 rulebooks to represent your forces. As long as your army is WYSIWIG then I don't care what rules you use to represent your aggressive assault arm of your Ultramarine army. Just use the rules correctly, make sure your points are properly spent, and that you aren't mixing any of the rules incorrectly.

With the ally rules the game has pretty much allowed you to do almost anything so get over it people. You can ally tau and space marines. That is pretty damn unfluffy so get OVER IT.

Those posts sumarizes my thoughts on army coloring. I am also of those who likes marines especially for the option to switch codex once in a while depending on what I would like to play. Though, I am always wysiwyg!

Eihnlazer wrote:
so lets make a new rule for bolters.

Explosive: On a to wound roll of a 6 a bolter round deals 2 wounds of damage.

Not bad, it doesn't completelly steal Teslas from Necrons but its a similar technicality that would have been seen previously.

**Pyriel-**

Its funny how tacticals can be considered so bad and grey hunters considered so good.
Shows how little change the Tacs really need eh?

Right, not to mention all else that has been said as a reply to this but give me 2 special weapons in a tac squad and that alone would count a long way to make a tac squad more useful.
As they are now they are far from good and this is reflected in how most people use them or rather, dont use them.

**Crimson**

Rinkydink wrote:
All the rumours point to no re-rolls in Sternguard I'm afraid.

No re-rolls for IF Sternguard, Ultras can re-roll just fine...

**Exergy**

ClockworkZion wrote:

And for the record I don't see either as smarter than the other, just differently oriented in how they approach the game. The thing is I like games with people who take the time to really theme up their army and will use these rules to make their armies even more thematic and awesome. I don't like playing the guy who at best primes his models, constantly switches rules, codexes and so on for a slight advantage over learning how to play his army better. You call my point of view on this snobbish, but really it just comes down to how I have fun being different than how you do.

I dont like playing guys who dont paint their models, even if they do it terribly It is better than just primed.
The problem is when you do a homebrew chapter you end up with their fluff and their doctrine and no codex really fits your style. My homebrew jumps from SW to CSM to very soon Iron Hands but none of them really encompass how I want to represent my chapter. If I go out on a limb and take a bunch of neat fluffly choices I might go with Ultra doctrine, after hamstringing myself by taking a bunch of terrible units that look cool on the table, that suitolink might allow me to stay on the table for a few turns.

**EYEofTERROR**

I dont understand why people are whining about yellow marines acting like blue marines or whatever color you like. Every other codex has characters from different armies that affect gameplay. If your eldar aren't black, then you cant use eldrad. If you want fluff, read a book. That is one thing that is great about the space marine line, you can use half a dozen codexes (now a word, thanks gw) with the same set of models. I dont use my blood angels as anything but ba or sm, but when i use a sm list, youre damn right i will use whatever character and or rules that best fit the situation. Just like i expect my opponent to bring units that will actually be effective against me. You dont bring a knife to a gun fight.

**Hulksmash**

Exergy wrote:

20 DE with dark lances? Really? A 9 point T3 5+ save guy with a str3 or 4 rapid fire weapon? Those 25 point Dark Lances that are worse against anything but AV14 than a 20 point lascannon? A choice that pratically MUST have a 70 point vehicle to be viable that you failed to mention.

How are CSM better? They dont have chapter tactics, they dont have ATSKNF. They can take marks, but none of them are worth the points. They MUST take a veteran sergeant who MUST challenge in an edition when combat sergeants arent worth it and challenges are only good if you have the choice. The only thing they do that C:SM tacticals cannot do is come stock with CCW pistol instead of bolter or take double special weapons at 10 men. Sure they can have 20 models if you like, sure they can pay 40 points for a 6++ or fearless or +1 inititive but what do you really want to do?

Neither of these choices has ATSKNF, an incredible ability

You don't really know Dark Eldar do you? You've got their weapons and transport options wrong. Seems like a waste to go further on the subject with you. Take my word for it or don't but the SM and BA Tactical squads don't currently match up with any reasonable troop choice in 40k. They're simply outclassed at the moment. The new book, based on my current experience with DA Tacticals, will make tacticals usable again. It'll make them a contributor to the army as a whole and not a point sink. They won't be instant win by any means or suddenly the greatest ever but they will no longer be a drag on your forces.

My personal opinion and all. I've been wrong before, or so my wife keeps telling me

**Kirasu**

EYEofTERROR wrote:
I dont understand why people are whining about yellow marines acting like blue marines or whatever color you like. Every other codex has characters from different armies that affect gameplay. If your eldar aren't black, then you cant use eldrad. If you want fluff, read a book. That is one thing that is great about the space marine line, you can use half a dozen codexes (now a word, thanks gw) with the same set of models. I dont use my blood angels as anything but ba or sm, but when i use a sm list, youre damn right i will use whatever character and or rules that best fit the situation. Just like i expect my opponent to bring units that will actually be effective against me. You dont bring a knife to a gun fight.

This really tends to be a space marine player phenomena. Eldar players tend not to bitch if they see Eldrad in a non-uthwe painted army or Farsight in a non-farsight painted army.. but you can barely throw a rock without hitting a space marine player who doesn't get pissed off if they see Calgar in a non-smurf painted army.

I think it's because there are a lot of players out there who play a lot of games of space marine vs space marine each with their own distinctive chapter lore, so it's serious business. (Granted I have a ton of special lore but I honestly couldn't care less what I use my Marines as, or what other people use theirs as.. it's a game)