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I guess I am a bit of a role player kind of guy. I play Black Templars, have the Helbrecht model and never use him...because that marshal on the field? Thats my representative. I dont want a guy who already has a name and fluff, I want to be the one making the fluff for my dudes. So I honestly just don't get this recent SC conflict.

Anyways, a few BLack Templar questions:

1) I assume righteous zeal is gone? Can anyone verify? Because running forward in my opponent's shooting phase was beyond awesome for my close combat army.
2) Does anyone know if the BT are keeping the 5 man special/heavy weapons capability? Or will get get the minimum 10 restriction that everyone complains about?
3) Terminator squads, I used to be able to do 2 heavy weapons with 5 terminators, is that changing?
4) Will our squads finally get sergeants? As a BT I love my challenges but I only have like 3 characters max that can challenge right now.
5) Anyone heard about whats going on with the Sword Brethren unit? Right now its worth less than dirt in game...but those models are just so awesome. At worst I hope I can just use them as sergeant models.
6) And lastly, my custom Marshal is modelled with a lightning claw and a storm shield...because I could take those with the old Armoury setup where he could just pick and choose. Is that still going to be a legal setup? I havent even touched the other SM codices to see what their HQs could take. I would hate to shelve him (I am NOT taking him apart) Oh, and I have a termie chaplain with a crozius and a power axe...is that likely to be legal with the update? Because its awesome right now

Note: I also feel as though rolling them up in the C:SM codex was a great way to expand on them, and potentially fix them...but I dont think thats happening. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel as though we will again NOT be designed as a close combat army, regardless of the stuff happening to them.

CT for Crusader is nice, re-rolling run moves will potentially help me get closer to the enemy for the charge...but I STILL cant run and charge, so largely pointless. With righteous zeal I had a move, run and another separate run in the enemy phase potentially so overall crusader I feel is a worse option.

CT for Adamantine Will for the army is great...not too gamebreaking as most psykers just buff themselves rather than attack an enemy. And its SUPER fluffy, which I love.

Or take the OTHER CT for Rending in challenges is ok relying on one thing. We DO have sergeants in our squads now right? Also the re-roll to hits I am hearing about. Is it only in close combat? And is it ALSO for just the challenges, or for everyone in the army? Big questions that need some answers eventually.

For an army that is supposed to be super close combat oriented, I am still not seeing how to get them into close combat...and even IF they DO get there, I fear they are weaker than they EVER were before. Before 6th every BT could have PE in close combat, which was awesome. Then 6th and the FAQ came out and the most common Vow allowed Rage, which was a bonus attack on the charge? Not as good, but still a huge difference in assault outcomes. And most of the assaulting units in BT could take furious charge for an even better assault. Now from the rumors, I am gathering I get no close combat bonuses aside from rerolling runs, and rerolling to hits (Potentially ONLY in challenges), My assault terminators will be more expensive and so far have nothing to say they can take furious charge. I lose my rage vow. I lose righteous zeal too. I feel as if we may be getting even further from the fluff with BT as an assaulting army.

And one of the bigger notes missing in the BT rumors? "No pity, no remorse, no fear." The ability that made EVERY Templar fearless in close combat. Even to the point where you CANT take "Our weapons are useless" I LOVED being fearless in close combat, it was one of the biggest fluff pieces the Black Templars had going for them!

When I originally heard BT were rolled into C:SM I was pumped for new toys and new tactics and more consistant updates...but I am growing more concerned the closer we come to the day of release. I will hold off disappointment or joy until I know for sure...but I am feeling very skeptical on the future of my Angry Sci-Fi Space Crusaders.

So, looking at Faeit212, the rumors for Grav Pistols said that "Graviton Pistols are available to almost any model that can take a pistol" -- so Tac Squads may be much more valuable than I initially thought.

I'm wondering exactly how many will be able to take them in a squad of 10.....

Also trying to figure out what [Centurions] "3 models with no upgrade cost the same as the current price of Predator with no upgrades" means....I thought the rumor was that 3 were 190 points?

That back and forth on the subject of TACs got me thinking and I came to the conclusion that point drops will not fix the issue with PA marines. Patch it up to some extent, sure, but the real problem is mechanical.

Too much AP3, too much blast, too much anti tank firing on infantry.

Cut blast strengthen and AP values, cut down on the amount of easily accessible low AP spam weapons, make single target anti tank weapons hit infantry on a 6. Make both toughness 4 AND the 3+ worth something again. Then we can talk about the impact of ATSKNF on units with high sustain and how much they should cost.

 Isean wrote:
I guess I am a bit of a role player kind of guy. I play Black Templars, have the Helbrecht model and never use him...because that marshal on the field? Thats my representative. I dont want a guy who already has a name and fluff, I want to be the one making the fluff for my dudes. So I honestly just don't get this recent SC conflict.

Anyways, a few BLack Templar questions:

I'll answer all the ones I know of.

 Isean wrote:
1) I assume righteous zeal is gone? Can anyone verify? Because running forward in my opponent's shooting phase was beyond awesome for my close combat army.

I'm not 100% on that, but I'll add it to my list of questions to ask.

 Isean wrote:
2) Does anyone know if the BT are keeping the 5 man special/heavy weapons capability? Or will get get the minimum 10 restriction that everyone complains about?

I haven't seen anything specific on the Crusader Squads except that they get a second Power Weapon in the squad besides the Sergeant (who is an upgrade).

 Isean wrote:
3) Terminator squads, I used to be able to do 2 heavy weapons with 5 terminators, is that changing?

I believe so. All other Terminator units lost that a long time ago.

 Isean wrote:
4) Will our squads finally get sergeants? As a BT I love my challenges but I only have like 3 characters max that can challenge right now.

Technically Crusader Squads are your only unique unit, but yes they have a Sword Brethren upgrade and he's apparently the Sergeant. Otherwise all other units have Sergeants and/or Sergeants as upgrades it seems.

 Isean wrote:
5) Anyone heard about whats going on with the Sword Brethren unit? Right now its worth less than dirt in game...but those models are just so awesome. At worst I hope I can just use them as sergeant models.

I think they're now Sword Brethren Sternguard or Vanguard from little 40k Radio has mentioned about them. Basically they've been replaces. Doesn't mean the models will eat it though, and there may be an upgrade option of some kind.

 Isean wrote:
6) And lastly, my custom Marshal is modelled with a lightning claw and a storm shield...because I could take those with the old Armoury setup where he could just pick and choose. Is that still going to be a legal setup? I havent even touched the other SM codices to see what their HQs could take. I would hate to shelve him (I am NOT taking him apart) Oh, and I have a termie chaplain with a crozius and a power axe...is that likely to be legal with the update? Because its awesome right now

Marshalls are now Captains and if they retain their wargear options, yes it would be as far I know.

Note: I also feel as though rolling them up in the C:SM codex was a great way to expand on them, and potentially fix them...but I dont think thats happening. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel as though we will again NOT be designed as a close combat army, regardless of the stuff happening to them.

 Isean wrote:
CT for Crusader is nice, re-rolling run moves will potentially help me get closer to the enemy for the charge...but I STILL cant run and charge, so largely pointless. With righteous zeal I had a move, run and another separate run in the enemy phase potentially so overall crusader I feel is a worse option.

No one gets to charge and run anymore so it's a little moot at this point. It was a rule that was likely getting pulled anyways. At least you can hold objectives without having to go to ground to keep from shifting off them.

 Isean wrote:
CT for Adamantine Will for the army is great...not too gamebreaking as most psykers just buff themselves rather than attack an enemy. And its SUPER fluffy, which I love.

Yeah, it's a good one. I rather wish I could give it to my Exorcists to represent all their Hexagramatic wards and Daemonic resistance.

 Isean wrote:
Or take the OTHER CT for Rending in challenges is ok relying on one thing. We DO have sergeants in our squads now right? Also the re-roll to hits I am hearing about. Is it only in close combat? And is it ALSO for just the challenges, or for everyone in the army? Big questions that need some answers eventually.

Yes, you have Sergeants.

 Isean wrote:
For an army that is supposed to be super close combat oriented, I am still not seeing how to get them into close combat...and even IF they DO get there, I fear they are weaker than they EVER were before. Before 6th every BT could have PE in close combat, which was awesome. Then 6th and the FAQ came out and the most common Vow allowed Rage, which was a bonus attack on the charge? Not as good, but still a huge difference in assault outcomes. And most of the assaulting units in BT could take furious charge for an even better assault. Now from the rumors, I am gathering I get no close combat bonuses aside from rerolling runs, and rerolling to hits (Potentially ONLY in challenges), My assault terminators will be more expensive and so far have nothing to say they can take furious charge. I lose my rage vow. I lose righteous zeal too. I feel as if we may be getting even further from the fluff with BT as an assaulting army.

A bit thing people forget about getting models to combat is that the game is supposed to be played with a LOT of terrain. And I don't mean just little sandbag walls either.

Vows were dead in the water. There were maybe 2 that people ever talked about using and the old Accept All Challenges Vow was the one that went into most lists regardless.

You did gain a hidden power weapon (might even be a hidden power fist) since a single model other than the Sword Brethren in the Crusader Squad should be able to upgrade to have one if rumors hold true.

 Isean wrote:
And one of the bigger notes missing in the BT rumors? "No pity, no remorse, no fear." The ability that made EVERY Templar fearless in close combat. Even to the point where you CANT take "Our weapons are useless" I LOVED being fearless in close combat, it was one of the biggest fluff pieces the Black Templars had going for them!

Chaplains will still make your Fearless (Zealot) and give you Hatred (Zealot again), but I do get what you're saying. It looks like GW stripped most of the Fearless/Stubborn buffs/options out of the book in favor of making the other books stand out with their use of it (Dark Angels for example).

 Isean wrote:
When I originally heard BT were rolled into C:SM I was pumped for new toys and new tactics and more consistant updates...but I am growing more concerned the closer we come to the day of release. I will hold off disappointment or joy until I know for sure...but I am feeling very skeptical on the future of my Angry Sci-Fi Space Crusaders.

I wouldn't even fret on the day of release. It'll take some time to adjust to the major shift in options and playstyle in the book, but it won't necessarily be bad. From what I've been reading for a while, the "best" way to play BT for a while was basically a water-down version of Codex: Space Marines, which was pretty lame. They were mostly shooty and no one ever took the Black Tide as a serious option anymore (I'm not saying it wasn't played, just that it wasn't seen as being that good). This might give the Templars some new options that help them out...I don't know. Once we have the actual rules in hand and have had some real time to digest everything it'll be much clearer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NickTheButcher wrote:
So, looking at Faeit212, the rumors for Grav Pistols said that "Graviton Pistols are available to almost any model that can take a pistol" -- so Tac Squads may be much more valuable than I initially thought.

I'm wondering exactly how many will be able to take them in a squad of 10.....

Also trying to figure out what [Centurions] "3 models with no upgrade cost the same as the current price of Predator with no upgrades" means....I thought the rumor was that 3 were 190 points?

My understanding is that it'd be every model that can buy a pistol.

And the Centurion thing was my mistake when I was originally typing it up. I was trying to say that EACH of them cost the same price as a naked Pred. Or to put it simply: 60pts each.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
That back and forth on the subject of TACs got me thinking and I came to the conclusion that point drops will not fix the issue with PA marines. Patch it up to some extent, sure, but the real problem is mechanical.

Too much AP3, too much blast, too much anti tank firing on infantry.

Cut blast strengthen and AP values, cut down on the amount of easily accessible low AP spam weapons, make single target anti tank weapons hit infantry on a 6. Make both toughness 4 AND the 3+ worth something again. Then we can talk about the impact of ATSKNF on units with high sustain and how much they should cost.

It's only really a points drop until we start factoring special and heavy weapons back into the unit. Well that and only using the regular Sergeants.

I feel the real issue with PA Marines is less the Marines and the counters for them that exist but people not having fully adjusted to them or worked out ways to deal with things yet. It used to be by the time the next book came along we had everything from the previous one pretty much all hammered out, now we're still in shock and haven't really made the adjustments in how we look at the game to really solve those problems yet.

Dracos wrote:So things like razorbacks, landraiders, stormtalon and stormeagle will all be poor choices when using the UM Tactical doctrine.

I guess it depends on the configuration with the Stormtalon. Granted, Razors, LRs and Stormravens (I assume you meant that rather than Stormeagle) don't really benefit. SR only does if you use Typhoon launcher, but I personally would rather just use the TL multi-melta.

However, I've always run Stormtalon with missiles. Since Stormtalon shoots at BS5 against ground targets, basically the missiles would be twin-linked with the UM tactical doctrine. Not bad.

Dracos wrote:One thing I'm noticing is that people seem to be under the impression that Chapter Tactics will be on vehicles as well as infantry. IIRC, in the present codex, Chapter Tactics is not a rule on vehicles - is there a reason to think this has changed?
I haven't seen specifically a reference to Chapter tactics being on vehicles yet in the rumours, anyone else?

Aside from the CTs which specifically mention vehicles such as the IH one, 40k Radio said the tactics just refer to models most of the time, without specifying infantry. And as vehicles are models...

But of course, it all comes down to how accurate 40k Radio's info is. We'll know in a few weeks I suppose.

ClockworkZion wrote:

I feel the real issue with PA Marines is less the Marines and the counters for them that exist but people not having fully adjusted to them or worked out ways to deal with things yet. It used to be by the time the next book came along we had everything from the previous one pretty much all hammered out, now we're still in shock and haven't really made the adjustments in how we look at the game to really solve those problems yet.

It's going to be tough going forward with PA marines, especially Tactical squads (without UM Tactical CT). People are still adjusting to the proliferation of AP3 and better weaponry, which, with non-Tacticals, will likely be adjusted to in various manners, and each unit will probably end up with one or two competitive builds and delivery systems. The problem with non-UM tacticals is that they weren't really doing well 4 years into 5th, and things have only gone downhill in 6th, so the points cost drop will likely just keep them treading water.

It'll be very interesting to see where the meta ends up in 3 or so years with non-tactical squads though.

I don't see what all the fuss is about SC. They sometimes provide a cool rule or two, but they are usually very expensive. I think the only sad part about Iron Hands, for example, not getting a SC is that they won't get any new, great looking models. In a 1500pt game, at least around here, SC are rarely seen. But, to each, his own. Cheers.

In all my marine armies I usually have at least one 10 man tactical unit as they are still very useful. They are also point effective and if the new rumours are rights, then each chapter gives them a good bit of variety depending on chapter choice.

This does mean that my Ultras will get a revisit, and considering I have a hefty army of them it will mean I can redo it, or leaving that do my own chapter The Golden Fist, an IF successor from the cursed founding. Ooooo Lysander and Kantor together, sooooooo evil.

Yes I have found the proliferation of Cover ignore AP3 Weapons to be quite alarming m self. However it has never stopped me from fielding my Marine Armies. personally I always though that Tactical Squads were one of the best choices.
I also relies they are a “Jack of Trades” so they are “Masters of None”. This is why they are good. Until the recent AP3 Armies I could always count on them doing their job, sitting on objectives or taking them though Bolter fire. I still do this well with my Grey Hunters.
I am really hoping they are going to do well, especially since I will be using the Raven Guard option.

Will Terminators be allowed to now take e.g. 1x TH/SS, 1x SB/PF, 1x AC/PF, 1x LC and a Sergant?????

 mwnciboo wrote:
Does it really Matter...Ultra's are Ultramarine because frankly they are probably the best Tactical Chapter out there. They are the living embodiement of Humanity's Noble aspect - You don't like it play something else.

I'm pretty direct and forthright, I like the Iron Hand's no nonsense, economy of effort and unbending will.

Other people I know like the Feral nature of the wolves, still others the dark and broody DA's, others like the Fanatical Hatred of the BT's. Some read things like Twilight and they like BA's .

The Ultra's are special because frankly they aren't special - They aren't Wolves, Vampires, Cyborgs or anything else. They are Romani Space Marines, they believe they are unsullied and have a pure Geneseed - So is it any surprise they need something to show they are reasonable at everything and maybe very good at shooting? They gave birth to like 80% of Chapters their influence is vast, they are like it or not, the definitive archetypal Marines. In much the same way that the SAS is the Archetypal, benchmark Special Forces Unit. They are the one everyone else try's to emulate or better and venerated as the pinnacle of their craft.

+1 Exalted. You accurately embodied why I like my Ultras so much. I own painted SW, CF, and full armies of CF and Ravenwing. But my heart always returns to SM (which have been a labor of love to use since BA and SW came out).

It blows my mind after the Necrons, Eldar, and Tau got all of their boosts at really no cost, that people are whining as to the OP of tacticals hitting 1 more time per almost 6 rolls (never mind still needing to wound). It's nice, but it doesn't stop SMS, Baledrakes, Bladestorm, or Barrage weapons and marker lights any better than before.

Robbo97 wrote:
Will Terminators be allowed to now take e.g. 1x TH/SS, 1x SB/PF, 1x AC/PF, 1x LC and a Sergant?????

most likely not.

The only change is that you have to pay 5ppm for thunder hammer/storm shield on the assault termies.

Vanilla marines dont get to stick cyclone missles on their shield termies :(

 mwnciboo wrote:
The Ultra's are special because frankly they aren't special

 mwnciboo wrote:
So is it any surprise they need something to show they are reasonable at everything and maybe very good at shooting?

 mwnciboo wrote:
The Ultra's [...] aren't special

 mwnciboo wrote:
So is it any surprise they need something to show they are [...] very good at shooting?

Based on what mwnciboo said, yes it's pretty surprising that a chapter that isn't special needs special rules to show they are better at shooting (while not being special).

Well, as the Ultras being the founder of what is considered the Codex Marine combat doctrine, they should have something to show for it.

However, I agree with others that some of the other traits for the other founding chapters are a bit less appealing than the UM one. I like the IH and WS ones, but one would think that they would have made them all interesting.

The UM's are not special because of the uniform-way they fight. No special units, ala Death Company, etc. This is what makes them the generic base for Codex Chapters.

I think we can all agree that as players, we want options worth taking, and this has been an issue for the past few editions. I just can't understand how they (GW) have not considered this or haven't taken the time to give us these options.

I wonder if the the Iron Hands CT will apply to their fliers as well, might make the storm stallion a bit more resilient.

 Kirasu wrote:

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
I dont understand why people are whining about yellow marines acting like blue marines or whatever color you like. Every other codex has characters from different armies that affect gameplay. If your eldar aren't black, then you cant use eldrad. If you want fluff, read a book. That is one thing that is great about the space marine line, you can use half a dozen codexes (now a word, thanks gw) with the same set of models. I dont use my blood angels as anything but ba or sm, but when i use a sm list, youre damn right i will use whatever character and or rules that best fit the situation. Just like i expect my opponent to bring units that will actually be effective against me. You dont bring a knife to a gun fight.

This really tends to be a space marine player phenomena. Eldar players tend not to bitch if they see Eldrad in a non-uthwe painted army or Farsight in a non-farsight painted army.. but you can barely throw a rock without hitting a space marine player who doesn't get pissed off if they see Calgar in a non-smurf painted army.

I think it's because there are a lot of players out there who play a lot of games of space marine vs space marine each with their own distinctive chapter lore, so it's serious business. (Granted I have a ton of special lore but I honestly couldn't care less what I use my Marines as, or what other people use theirs as.. it's a game)

Psh, when I get some more money in the future i'm going to make an 'apocalypse' army of Marneus Calgars.

Anyone who takes 40k super serious is playing in the wrong game setting.

Am I the only one that think that all of the Chapter tactics are good?

Iron Hands Chapter Master 4 wounds with It will not die.

White Scars hit and run with bikes equal twin-linked bolters plus Hammer of Wraith Attacks.

Raven Guard stealth flyers, 3+ cover saves for infantry.

I ask again what is the problem?

ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel the real issue with PA Marines is less the Marines and the counters for them that exist but people not having fully adjusted to them or worked out ways to deal with things yet.

You can't adjust to plasma and pie plates. It's not going to work. Until armour saves, toughness and rapid fire as the primary means of dealing with enemy infantry become relevant again OR Marines get point cost adjusted, TACs will be at best adequate. Not really sure if what we're getting right now is enough to change that, considering that the better units in the FOC are getting those extra rules too. The internal dynamics of the army don't seem to be changing all that much and the overall edition mechanics sure as hell aren't going anywhere either.

You know, as maligned SM are by a large portion of the community, making the basic Tac Marine a relevant model would serve both the army and the game, and thus everybody else.

 Pyriel- wrote:

This one I just don't understand. How can every space marine Chapter Master be W4 A4, yet the Dark Angels Chapter Master's are only W3 A3? Things like this should be consistent from chapter to chapter, no?


Those are Company Masters for the DA (Captains for other chapters). The DA Chapter Master (Supreme Grand Master Azrael) is in fact W4 and A4.

GK grand masters?

I can go on and on, but razorback is absolutely not one of the selling points of the tactical squad, especially when you consider that whats inside looses its ability to shoot out the top.

Exactly. A tin can that dies as soon as someone looks at it with a overpriced weapon on it´s roof. Not my idea of powerful unit.

Draigo is their Chapter Master equivalent with 4w 4a. Grand Masters are now closer to captains, like DA company masters.

Razorbacks got hit hard with the new vehicle rules, but the main problems with them was not normal razorbacks in tac lists, but the insanely cheap discounted ones for assault squads that BA especially could spam.

Crazyterran wrote:
Though, I'm interested to hear why you think Whirlwinds are worth it - they aren't really worth it in the DA book for the same price, considering all you get is a S5 large blast.

It may be my local meta, but I find them to have their uses. I don't take them for the S5 large blast, I take them for the s4 AP5 ignores cover large blast, to deal with annoying things like Tau and Eldar pathfinders and IG hiding in cover. Range and barrage works well for that. SM scouts are less vulnerable to it, but even then, making them take saves on a 4+ armor instead of a 3+ with camo or 2+ with bolstered defenses too.

Just remember that is a Iron Hands chapter master with 4 wounds and it will not die that will be ID by a lucky krak missile or lascannon. He will still be a space marine so T4 and that is pretty easy to deal with.

 CKO wrote:
Am I the only one that think that all of the Chapter tactics are good?

Iron Hands Chapter Master 4 wounds with It will not die.

White Scars hit and run with bikes equal twin-linked bolters plus Hammer of Wraith Attacks.

Raven Guard stealth flyers, 3+ cover saves for infantry.

I ask again what is the problem?

The problem is that most of the non-Ultras Tactics are situational in benefit, or require very specific army builds to use at anything even approaching their best(for example, any IH player that isn't cramming their list with Dreads, Tanks, and multi-wound HQs is essentially pissing away half their benefit, more than half IMO since 6+ FnP isn't that stellar; my infantry heavy IH will likely be even worse on the tabletop than they are today once FW FAQ the Badab War characters and take away Vaylund Cal's army-wide Fearless) while the Ultras Tactics not only allow them to essentially list-tailor before every battle even in TAC situations, but also the Tactical trait substantially boosts the army's basic Troops choice, increases the accuracy of the entire army, and removes the sole downside of one of the most popular special weapons(plasma).

It's not the end of the world, but it's a bit galling when you also take into account the dramatic imbalance in SC access.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Pyriel- wrote:

This one I just don't understand. How can every space marine Chapter Master be W4 A4, yet the Dark Angels Chapter Master's are only W3 A3? Things like this should be consistent from chapter to chapter, no?


Those are Company Masters for the DA (Captains for other chapters). The DA Chapter Master (Supreme Grand Master Azrael) is in fact W4 and A4.

GK grand masters?

I can go on and on, but razorback is absolutely not one of the selling points of the tactical squad, especially when you consider that whats inside looses its ability to shoot out the top.

Exactly. A tin can that dies as soon as someone looks at it with a overpriced weapon on it´s roof. Not my idea of powerful unit.

Draigo is their Chapter Master equivalent with 4w 4a. Grand Masters are now closer to captains, like DA company masters.

Razorbacks got hit hard with the new vehicle rules, but the main problems with them was not normal razorbacks in tac lists, but the insanely cheap discounted ones for assault squads that BA especially could spam.

Crazyterran wrote:
Though, I'm interested to hear why you think Whirlwinds are worth it - they aren't really worth it in the DA book for the same price, considering all you get is a S5 large blast.

It may be my local meta, but I find them to have their uses. I don't take them for the S5 large blast, I take them for the s4 AP5 ignores cover large blast, to deal with annoying things like Tau and Eldar pathfinders and IG hiding in cover. Range and barrage works well for that. SM scouts are less vulnerable to it, but even then, making them take saves on a 4+ armor instead of a 3+ with camo or 2+ with bolstered defenses too.

Whirlwinds already ignored Aegis Lines due to Barrage, I'm assuming you have a bunch of area terrain where you are?

 His Master's Voice wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel the real issue with PA Marines is less the Marines and the counters for them that exist but people not having fully adjusted to them or worked out ways to deal with things yet.

You can't adjust to plasma and pie plates. It's not going to work. Until armour saves, toughness and rapid fire as the primary means of dealing with enemy infantry become relevant again OR Marines get point cost adjusted, TACs will be at best adequate. Not really sure if what we're getting right now is enough to change that, considering that the better units in the FOC are getting those extra rules too. The internal dynamics of the army don't seem to be changing all that much and the overall edition mechanics sure as hell aren't going anywhere either.

You know, as maligned SM are by a large portion of the community, making the basic Tac Marine a relevant model would serve both the army and the game, and thus everybody else.

I was less talking about the weapon itself and more with dealing with whatever is carrying it actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crazyterran wrote:
Whirlwinds already ignored Aegis Lines due to Barrage, I'm assuming you have a bunch of area terrain where you are?

Whirlwinds also have that whole S4, AP5, Ignores Cover shot that people forget about too.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel the real issue with PA Marines is less the Marines and the counters for them that exist but people not having fully adjusted to them or worked out ways to deal with things yet.

You can't adjust to plasma and pie plates. It's not going to work. Until armour saves, toughness and rapid fire as the primary means of dealing with enemy infantry become relevant again OR Marines get point cost adjusted, TACs will be at best adequate. Not really sure if what we're getting right now is enough to change that, considering that the better units in the FOC are getting those extra rules too. The internal dynamics of the army don't seem to be changing all that much and the overall edition mechanics sure as hell aren't going anywhere either.

You know, as maligned SM are by a large portion of the community, making the basic Tac Marine a relevant model would serve both the army and the game, and thus everybody else.

I was less talking about the weapon itself and more with dealing with whatever is carrying it actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crazyterran wrote:
Whirlwinds already ignored Aegis Lines due to Barrage, I'm assuming you have a bunch of area terrain where you are?

Whirlwinds also have that whole S4, AP5, Ignores Cover shot that people forget about too.

I know. But, why would you use that against an Aegis Line when a S5 shot will do more damage?

The S4 AP5 is great against non-marines in area terrain, but, other than that... >.>

 Exergy wrote:

SW have 7 special character
BA have 7 special characters
Ultras have 5 special characters
If I want to play Iron Hands, I will have 0 special characters

UM have 6: Calgar, Sicarius, Cassius, Tigurius, Telion, Chronos
SW have 8: Logan, Ragnar, Njal, Bjorn, Ulrik, Canis, Arjak, Lukas
BA have 8: Dante, Tycho, Mepheston, Lemartes, Astorath, Sanguinor, Corbulo, Seth.

 FirePainter wrote:
Just remember that is a Iron Hands chapter master with 4 wounds and it will not die that will be ID by a lucky krak missile or lascannon. He will still be a space marine so T4 and that is pretty easy to deal with.

At least he can take Artificer or Terminator Armor, Storm Shields, and there are relic armor and storm shield options we don't know about yet.

Crazyterran wrote:
The S4 AP5 is great against non-marines in area terrain, but, other than that... >.>

Which is what my local meta has a decent amount of. Thus I find it useful, though that does not mean it is universally useful.

I'm hoping for a solid option for a angels of death army. You know, a Death From Above space marine army. With drop pods, stormtalons, stormravens, etc. I was leaning toward a DA, but death from above SM have always been calling to me.

 Yodhrin wrote:

The problem is that most of the non-Ultras Tactics are situational in benefit, or require very specific army builds to use at anything even approaching their best

Bolter Drill for Imperial fist is not situational.

Raven Guard Stealth improves all cover saves and is not situational.

Specific army builds to take advantage of a Chapter's tactic is what you are suppose to do. Space wolves take advantage of grey hunters, Dark Angels take advantage of their bikes, blood angels take advantage of their fast vehicles its just what you do if you want a specific advantage. Ultra Marines have a Tactic that basically says build a list any list and our trait makes it better, while the others are take advantage of stealth, hit and run, it will not die, or tank hunters. Like you said its not that dramatic as people are making it seem. The only SC that everyone wants is Tigurius and rightfully so, but he is an ultra marine.

As easy as it is to come up for a reason fluff wise that your Chapter has someone like Tigurius, I can give you a reason why your Chapter does not have someone who is the most powerful psyker in the Imperium.

Just take it as is, each founding chapter is a separate codex.

Crazyterran wrote:
I know. But, why would you use that against an Aegis Line when a S5 shot will do more damage?

The S4 AP5 is great against non-marines in area terrain, but, other than that... >.>

Because personally the things I've seen behind an Aegis are Plaguebearers on an Objective, Guardsmen and Firewarriors. S4,AP5 works fine on them if it can keep them from gaining cover saves. Especially the first two.

Yea, sometimes when I was fighting my friends Tau I would fire the ignore cover shot, even if it didn't break armor because it was the difference between a 4+ save and a 3+ cover /2+ go to ground save.

Leth wrote:Yea, sometimes when I was fighting my friends Tau I would fire the ignore cover shot, even if it didn't break armor because it was the difference between a 4+ save and a 3+ cover /2+ go to ground save.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
I know. But, why would you use that against an Aegis Line when a S5 shot will do more damage?

The S4 AP5 is great against non-marines in area terrain, but, other than that... >.>

Because personally the things I've seen behind an Aegis are Plaguebearers on an Objective, Guardsmen and Firewarriors. S4,AP5 works fine on them if it can keep them from gaining cover saves. Especially the first two.

Yes, but if the guy is behind an Aegis Line and you shoot a Whirlwind's S5 AP4 barrage weapon against them, it will ignore the intervening Aegis Line regardless. (Unless your shot scatters so bad that the hole ends up on the other side of the Aegis Line.)

Using 'Aegis Line' as a reason to use the S4 shot is wrong.