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I can see special charters in an APOC game but for under 3000pts, they should be with their home forces. If we are free to put whatever charter with any chapter they lose what they represent. That hurts the fluff, which is central to why we play the game. Crimson fists versus Nids is a great example. We care because of the fluff.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

So, three Special Characters for every 'main' chapter represented in this book - twenty four, if we include the Crimson Fists. Making them all good would be absolutely impossible. There would still be brokenly good ones, terrible ones, and there would still be tears. Not to mention the tears over the fact that the Codex: Space Marine book would have twenty four characters while all other books are lucky if they have eight or nine. Unless, of course, you didn't mean every one of the main chapters, in which case, who is it okay for them to not get the same as the others, since you want everything to be completely fair!

Clearly, according to you, just adding an Iron Hands character or two is right out of the question. We have to remove Ultramarines characters to make room! Instead of just adding a Master of the Forge character with a Captain's statline that has a few unique rules that represent an Iron Father for the Iron Hands. Nope! Get out of there, Chronus! Goodbye, Telion! Adios, Sicarius!

And I didn't say it's okay to bone the Iron Hands, just that's the fact of the matter.

Did you even play during Fourth Edition? I mean, seriously, did you? If not, you shouldn't really be talking about how terribly bad other chapters have now.

Yes I played 4th ed - and the other editions too.

24 SCs - Ok, thats fine, its a bigger book than other codexes if I read it correctly so thats fine - and yes lets have 3 each rather than 6 and 1 each (or none) - and if there is not room - then yes lets take out some redundant UM characters (which is you view on them remember) and put them in the special UM codex that will then come out? The Badab books managed 22 Scs..........

Why is some fairness so bad ? Why do other Chapters have to make do?

Again you have not answered the question - why is it impossible to create any new SCs for other Chapters but somehow other marine players should sit quietly and emrely wait for their expensive special codexes where these "Impossible" SCs wiull somehow appear?

It's not, ideally there would be no supplements and it would all be in the main codex. Also, the badab *books* did have twenty two special characters. Over multiple books. As in, more than one, and each of those Badab Books are probably bigger than the Codex: Space Marines is going to be.

They could also make new Special Characters without removing anything. I also didn't say that the Ultramarines characters are redundant, I just said that they aren't competitive/good. Cassius (or any Chaplain) is not competitive. I would love for them to add Tu'shan, Vladmir Pugh, Jubal Khan, and whomever the Raven Guard Chapter Master is. They could've added them all into the Codex, and I would have been thrilled! More flavour is good!

Doesn't mean they'd have to remove anything.

All I'm arguing is that they don't need to remove anything. You are the one turning this into things needing to be removed to make room for others, when people are perfectly capable of using the characters already available. I would be overjoyed if they added more characters - it adds more depth to the overall story. However, removing characters to add characters means that somebody is losing out for someone else - and that's stupid. Who's to say that if they removed Telion, Chronus, Sicarius, that they would necessarily add anything to replace them? They didn't replace Coteaz, for example.

Yes I agree the Bafab books are 200 pages each but they do have massively more fluff any codex will have (sadly) - plus rules for BFG and other extra add ons to the main system - my point is they managed to create 22 new SCs so I really think that they could do 24 if they wanted to - what I am saying is that lets give everyone the cool stuff!! I confess I am happy that GW is giving us more fluff and stuff in terms of the supplements but most of it should have been in the actual codexes as you say.

General warning--some of the responses in this thread are skirting the line between spirited disagreement and becoming personal. Remember, toy soldiers and all that. Thanks. Ryan

My apologies to all involved - warning noted.

The only issue I am having is that I am going to have to repaint some Assault Marines and a pair of tactical squads to pull of my Shrike/Pedro combo.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 battlematt wrote:
Special charters are supposed to be special not something that you see teamed up together in every tourney list. Maybe Shrike or Calgar or whatever will have the spotlight that they deserve. I hope my opponent will see my SC and go "holy crap is that who I think!".

Why would they ever do that? They're a piece of plastic/metal/resin that is commercially available to everyone. The thing is, while in the fluff and the background, you're right, these special characters are unique and rare, once you actually look at the game, there's nothing "special" about them other than the rules they bring to the table. It's not like Calgar will only show up in your list by some flight of fancy because there is one Calgar model roaming the world, dropping into games as it pleases. You see a character in the codex, you like the rules and want to use them in a game, you pay the points. That's the extent to which they are special.

we call not playing with special characters (unless you had permission) 3rd edition...

 battlematt wrote:
I can see special charters in an APOC game but for under 3000pts, they should be with their home forces. If we are free to put whatever charter with any chapter they lose what they represent. That hurts the fluff, which is central to why we play the game. Crimson fists versus Nids is a great example. We care because of the fluff.

Then you are perfectly free to play that way yourself! But I don't think it's right to impose that preference on everyone else, especially people who view the fluff and the gameplay as separate things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Weasel wrote:
we call not playing with special characters (unless you had permission) 3rd edition...

So you're saying it's outdated and a step backwards?

@MandalorynOran It seems that we do view the game with different goals. I hope that we can find a common excitement in the coming codex. Whenever we have a new one it does amp up my excitement to play, experiment with lists and plan tourneys. Good luck to you.

 Leth wrote:
Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?

Codex power are gone. They still have the same disciplines from the codex. Tigirius has access to all the disciplines.

xruslanx wrote:
honestly sick of this whinging. Please just cut it out guys.

This. +9000. Also, quit quoting fluff and background. Who cares if a Templar is a better fighter than a Space Wolve? Let's talk about the rumors, shall we?

 battlematt wrote:
@MandalorynOran It seems that we do view the game with different goals. I hope that we can find a common excitement in the coming codex. Whenever we have a new one it does amp up my excitement to play, experiment with lists and plan tourneys. Good luck to you.

Totally fair, best of luck to you too. I don't actually play marines, though, just interested for the sake of the game as a whole.

Okay, looks like Dark Angels for some cheap divination then. Not that I really mind, also dat fearless

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?

Codex power are gone. They still have the same disciplines from the codex. Tigirius has access to all the disciplines.

Given the kind of confused way some questions have been answered, I don't think "Codex powers are gone" should necessarily be read as "There are no powers specific to this codex."

 tomjoad wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?

Codex power are gone. They still have the same disciplines from the codex. Tigirius has access to all the disciplines.

Given the kind of confused way some questions have been answered, I don't think "Codex powers are gone" should necessarily be read as "There are no powers specific to this codex."

Currently the book has psychic powers in it for your Librarian to choose. Those are gone. Hence, Codex powers are gone.

Here's a supporting quote from 40k Radio:

Q: Did the Codex Powers change?
A: They use the psychic powers out of the rule book, so null zone and the other powers are gone.

 mwnciboo wrote:
I find it really difficult to see GW's framework or thoughts behind the way they do things.

For example the IF get Lysander - But he's not even the Boss - Vladimir Pugh is...But they get the 1st Captain instead.

UM's get a full choice and Extra low level characters like Sergeants.
Raven Guard get Shrike, but No Chapter Master.
Salamanders get Vulkan He'stan (4th Company Captain) , but no Tu'Shan who is their Chapter master.
White Scars get Kor'sarro Khan (3rd Company Captain) , But no Chapter Master Jubal Khan.
Iron hands get an oversized drill bit inserted in the rear.

I think a Chapter Master and another Captain is fair for every founding Chapter. A few others for chapters of Note :-

Crimson Fists, Cortez & Kantor.
Black Templars etc.

They could even Share Special Rules, so you get a special Command Option, and another "Bigger Brother Version" Command Option. They are the same Chapter so would share their rules. Instead we get a scattergun, nonsensical crazy set of options.

This is pure speculation on my behalf, but perhaps the chapter masters are supposed to be represented by the unit entry "Chapter Master". Likewise the captains might be represented by the unit entry "Space Marine Captain". Just imagine they are good enough, and have options enough, to make a fair aproximation.

 Fayric wrote:
This is pure speculation on my behalf, but perhaps the chapter masters are supposed to be represented by the unit entry "Chapter Master". Likewise the captains might be represented by the unit entry "Space Marine Captain". Just imagine they are good enough, and have options enough, to make a fair aproximation.

Adding to that, the Captain is 10 points cheaper from the start, and Chapter Masters went up a wound and an attack each. Honestly the generic ones are looking pretty good to me.

Additionally, I don't think anybody knows who the RG Master is do they?

 mwnciboo wrote:
I find it really difficult to see GW's framework or thoughts behind the way they do things.
.

I'll make it easy for you.

For 18 years it has been Codex: Space Marines, Starring: The Ultramarines, Guest Starring: Those Other Guys.

Now the Guest Stars just get slightly more exposure than in the past, however, it doesn't instantly negate the fact that there have been rules and models for Ultramarines for 18 years. Calgar, Tigurius and Cassius date back to 1995 and 2nd Edition.


The problem people have is perspective. They get angry that "The Ultramarines get everything". Actually no, no they don't. The Ultramarines have to share their codex with everyone else.

Why don't you complain about the Blood Angels getting all of their own books and rules? After all, the Blood Angels have six special characters. Isn't that unfair too? The Dark Angels have five. The Space Wolves have eight.


The reality is, if you chose a niche army, then you have to deal with it. For nearly 20 years, there has been a Big Four. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines. If you chose somebody other than those four, you did so knowing you had chosen a fringe chapter that was not one of the Big Four.

The reality is, with 1,000 Chapters, Nine Legions, and Four Codex books, only a few somebodies are going to be the Star, and everyone else is going to be Those Other Guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Technically Calgar goes back further than that, but in terms of the era of "Codex" army books and Special Characters.

 Leth wrote:
Here is the thing that was clearly covered. YOU CAN ALLY WITH THE BOOK.

Yup, and we can. And that's awesome (both from ours and GW's POVs. I can see the same happening to Orks and IG, at least. Nids got it too, say the rumours). But... how about people who use, i.e. Kantor + Vulkan and IG allies? Or any other codex? How can they repeat that? You have to choose between allying with your own codex or IG. No other codex has limitations like that (barring supplements).

Well, for me it's no big deal... if the other Chapters get new SCs in their suppplements. White Scars' one is coming in October - if it sports new SCs (with new and unique rules), yay! If it brings only 2-3 pages of some rules and that's it... the whining will continue!

 Leth wrote:

Ultramarines have the most special characters, they have the most chapter tactics diversity but guess what. THEY REPRESENT THE MOST CHAPTERS IN THE SETTING.

Think about it in the other way: the number of people playing all other chapters and non-UM related successors is bigger or smaller than the people playing UM and its successors? I think, IMO, it's alike the "long tail" theory - people like the big hits, but the smaller sales are greater than the big hits themselves, all summed up. So, that's no reason to just put more UM SCs than those other Chapters'. I understand it would take some significant time to create new guys (and their minis!) for the Marine Bible... and that's why people want to see new SCs in the supplements.

My main take on SCs in supplements is the possibility of creating truly different playstyles - or, as they say, 7 armies in one codex. Even with Chapter Traits, you can play with your SM dudes way alike an IH player - if you pick generalistic HQs and stuff. Of course, you can (and probably will) build them differently, but nothing is stopping you of using the same tactics. SCs bring unique rules that cannot be repeated by the general characters - and even other SCs. They bring unique playstyles!

Has there been any confirmation that there will actually be any new SCs in the Supplementary Codex.

One would have thought Iyanna Arienal would have been retained as a full SC (*) in Iyanden but she wasn't. I don't know about Farsight Enclave............

(*) she is a scenario specific foot note....

Farsight Enclave has like 8 Characters in it.

Black Legion and Iyanden had diddily squat in them, except for new Artifact lists(in Black Legion's case they HAD to use).

So Magic 8 ball, says good chance no new characters and a mild chance to get "screwed" on the Artifacts.

Meh aslong as the Eternal Warrior artifact is true.

Xanrn wrote:
Farsight Enclave has like 8 Characters in it.

Black Legion and Iyanden had diddily squat in them, except for new Artifact lists(in Black Legion's case they HAD to use).

So Magic 8 ball, says good chance no new characters and a mild chance to get "screwed" on the Artifacts.

Meh aslong as the Eternal Warrior artifact is true.

No, the farsight book has 7 "special characters" which are just things you can buy normally in the codex (except the IC riptide). The farsight book just added a few rules (xv-8's as troops) and some new wargear options.

Can we really not look ahead with any imagination? Of course there will be new SCs in some future supplements. Of course! Geez...

So is that three supplements and only 1 new SC so far?

Hmm does not bode well for the Astartes Supplements

What I am getting from this is that some players think that special characters is what made their army tick. That is understandable but the reason why SC seem to have that much power is that they changed the Chapter Tactics. Now instead of being RESTRICTED by being force to use a SC to get the Chapter Tactic you wanted, you have the ability to choose without paying the tax that was known as a SC. I feel liberated by the thought of not using SC and still getting what is essentially a free buff.

This notion that GW is severely limiting its players by not allowing players the ability to take multiple SC in their primary detachment is silly.

Which option do you find more restrictive?

A. Pay x amount of points to get a SC who changes your Chapter Tactic

or

B. Choose your Chapter Tactic

Yes, every other codex allows you to take any combination of SC without using allies but, name a codex that allows you to pick one of seven different rule sets that completely changes the play style of any list without taking a SC? It is unprecedented, previously you could pay close to 400 points to get two SC who gave a similar effect but now we get it for free.

GW saw it the way I saw it why make a player pay for a SC to get their chosen Chapter's Tactic. We were basically being force to pay a tax and now we have players mad that they no longer have to pay their taxes! Instead we get players who want to select their free buff (Chapter Tactic) than they want to pay some points for a SC which will give them another buff, than they want to pay some more points for another SC to get another buff, and than you have the option to use allies to get another buff! Do you honestly believe that is fair to other codexes? Yes, it is fair because I can write some cool fluff to justify it!

Re Supplements

It has been said, can't recall where, that the studio are producing less complex books first, as they are a new thing for them to develop, and will delay the more complex supplements that require a greater number of special rules, FOC changes or SCs to do the army justice until they are more confident with their execution.

So, if there isn't a rumoured supplement for your chosen sub faction for a while, this is actually

Listening to the podcast now, will update as things show up

So far the missile launcher tank has a tracking feature, so if you miss at the start of the next shooting phase on a 5+ the missile will hit the flier it shot at

Lots of new art. some black and white in color, each founding chapter gets their own section. Successor chapters get a nod, 1-2 paragraphs. The guy compared the background to Forgeworld background In IA.

Each character has a symbol next to their name saying what chapter tactics they use. To use the SC you have to use that chapter tactics for your army

Just choose what chapter tactics you want to use, then see which special characters you can use

You can ally with your codex as long as they use different chapter tactics

Edit: Alright Zion, I will leave it to you

 Leth wrote:
Listening to the podcast now, will update as things show up

So far the missile launcher tank has a tracking feature, so if you miss at the start of the next shooting phase on a 5+ the missile will hit the flier it shot at

Lots of new art. some black and white in color, each founding chapter gets their own section. Successor chapters get a nod, 1-2 paragraphs. The guy compared the background to Forgeworld backround In IA.

I'm working on it now as well. I was just going to do a mass update once I was done listening to it.

Ultramarines chapter tactics is once per game.

 jffalaschi wrote:
Ultramarines chapter tactics is once per game.

Crisis averted.

 jffalaschi wrote:
Ultramarines chapter tactics is once per game.

1. Called it when they said it had a caveat.
2. EACH of those is 1 use only and is active until the start of your following turn.

Well they don't sound so appealing anymore. IF sound way better. Then again, I never cared much (bar the apparent UM fanboyism), as I play White Scars.