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ClockworkZion wrote:

+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport

What about other squads, any word on them? After all basically all squads except assault squad can have LRC as dedicated in the current codex.

Here's the (rough) looking roll-up:

Strikeforce is the replacement for the Battleforce but instead a "starter army" box built around a theme of some kind. So more of starter box than the current Battleforce is. Every army will get one eventually that will be named after something relevant to that army (example: Wraithhost for Eldar).

240 Points for 3 Centurions with Grav-Cannons/Grav-Amps and Hurricane Bolters. 60 point upgrade for Grav-Cannon/Grav-Amps.

Assault Centurions have Move Through Cover

"Chapter Tactics I got to use that one turn" < Ultramarines CT

Codex: Space Marines is largely in line with Codex: Dark Angels points wise.

176 Pages in their copy of the codex (same as rumored)

Hunter has "Savant-Lock". When shooting at a flyer you put a marker on it for each miss. The markers stay on the flyer until it leaves the table or is destroyed. At the beginning of every friendly shooting phase you roll for those markers. On a 5 or a 6 that missle hits.

Artwook is nice, and book is Space Marines more in a general form. More updated fluff, not just the rehashed fluff.

Some of the classic Black and White was colored, but a lot of new art too.

Book is in sections for each chapter and a large number of the Successor Chapters to help players know who should be using what rules.

Salamanders don't really have any successor chapters because their chapter had suffered a large number of casualties so they have a larger number of Marines in their chapter.

"Equivilant to Forge World background" in terms of fluff.

Forgeworld fluff included in the codex.


Warlord Traits - Only Chart for the Codex
1. Angel of Death - Warlord and his unit have the Fear special rule.
2. Imperium Sword - One use only. Declare that your Warlord is using this at the start of one of your assualt phases. The Warlord and his unit have the Furious Charge special rule until the end of the turn. (Sicarius has this one!)
3. Storm of Fire - One use only. Declare that your Warlord is using this at the start of one of your shooting phases. For the duration of that phase a single frienly unit from Codex: Space Marines may re-roll any failed to-hit rolls.
4. Rites of War - When taking morale tests friendly units from Codex: Space Marines within 12" of the Warlord use his characteristic instead of their own.
5. Iron Resolve - When determining your assault results add +1 to your total if the Warlord is locked in that combat.
6. Champion of Humanity - If your Warlord causes the enemy Warlord to be removed from play in a challenge he scores D3 extra victory points in addition in the usual amount of points given for slaying the enemy Warlord in this scenario. Note that killing the enemy Warlord in a sweeping advance does not reward these extra victory points.


Chapter Tactics

Successor Chapters - You use whatever chapter tactics of your parent chapter is. The ONLY Exception is the Black Templar.

Homebrew - You can pick any tactic you want and use the Special Characters of that chapter. Those characters have to use the same Chapter Tactics as the same Chapter their from.

Allies - "A Space Marine Detachment that has one set of Chapter Tactics MAY ally with another Space Marine Detachment with a different set of Chapter Tactics, Ultramarines and Raven Guard for example. For purposes of the Allies rules these allies are treated as being from two different codexes and are treated as Battle Brothers. Note that you may field models from two different chapters that have the same Chapter Tactics, such as Ultramariens and Praetors of Orpheus in the same detachment. These chapters are so closely affiliated that they count as a single army on the battlefield."

Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine: This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game. To do so at the start of your turn you state which combat doctrine you wish to use, if any, until the start of your next turn. You can only use one combat doctrine per turn.
Tactical: Units in this detachment re-roll ones while shooting, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase.
Assault: Units in this detachment can re-roll their charge range. Assault squads, bikes, or attack bikes instead have the fleet rule.
Devastator: Units in this detachment may re-rolls to-hit on snap shots, including overwatch shots, in addition models in this detachment's Devastator squads have the relentless unless they disembarked from a transport in their movement phase.

White Scars - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Born in the Saddle: Models in this detachment with the Bike Unit Type automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, and recieve a +1 to their Jink Cover Saves. In addition add 1 to their Strength when resolving their Hammer of Wrath hits.
Fight on the Move: Models in this Detachment have the Hit and Run Special Rule. Note that this does not include models in Terminator Armor, Devastator Centurions or Assault Centurions.

Imperial Fists - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Bolter Drill - Models in this detachment may re-roll all to-hit rolls of 1 made with a bolt pistol, boltgun, stormbolter, heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that are firing as boltguns. This rule does not apply to Helfire, Kraken, Vengence or Dragonfire rounds.
Siegemasters - Models in this detachment in Devastator squads and Centurion Devastator squads have the Tank Hunter special rule and add +1 when rolling on the building damage table.

Black Templars - BOTH RULES ALL TIME
Accept Any Challenges, No Matter the Odds: When engaged in a challenge, Black Templar Characters reroll all failed to-hit rolls, and have the Rending Special Rule.
Crusaders: Black Templars have the Crusader and Adamantium Will Special Rules. In addition Black Templars have access to a special unit called a Crusader Squad.

Iron Hands - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
The Flesh is Weak: Models in this detachment have the Feel no Pain on a 6+ Special Rule. Note that if they benefit from more than one instance of Feel no Pain they use the best version available.
Machine Empathy: All vehicles and characters in this detachment have the It Will Not Die special rule even though vehicles do not have Chapter Tactic special rules. Furthermore, Techmarines and Masters of the Forge in this detachment add +1 to their Blessing of the Omnissiah rolls.

Salamanders - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Flamecraft: Models in this detachment can re-roll their saving throws against wounds caused by flamer weapons as defined by the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Furthermore, flame weapons used by models in this detachment re-roll failed to-wound rolls and armor penetration rolls that don't cause a glancing or a penetrating hit.
Master Astisan: During the army selection each character in this detachment may upgrade on of his weapons, even one they have purchased as an upgrade, to have the Mastercrafted Special Rule at no additional cost.

Raven Guard - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth Special Rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky Special Rules do not benefit from either rule.
Wings of Deliverance: Jump Infantry Models in this detachment may use their Jump Packs in both the movement and assault phases of the same turn. Futhermore, they must re-roll all failed to-wound rolls caused by their Hammer of Wrath hits.

COUNT AS: If you want to use Vulkan in a Ultramarines army you have to play use the Salamander Chapter Tactics. So you CAN do "count-as" but you lock yourself into their Chapter Tactics.

Black Templars: + Gains / - Losses
- No More Vows
- No More Marshalls or Castellans
- No More Terminator Command Squads
- No More Master of Sanctity/Reclessiarchy
- Sword Brethren are no longer units
- No More 2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man Terminator Squad
- No More special rule upgrades (Tank Hunter, ect)
- No More Storm Shields on Assault Squads
- No More extra power weapons in bike squad
- No More Fearless in Close Combat
- No More Righteous Zeal
- Some Flavor
- Most Heavy Weapons +5 more
- No More Power of the Machine Spirt upgrade

+ Chapter Master and Captains
+ Honor Guard
+ Regular Chaplains
+ Master of the Forge
+ Tactical Squads
+ Scout Squads
+ Land Speeder Storm
+ Vanguard
+ Sternguard
+ Ironclad Dreadnoughts
+ Centurions (Assault and Devastator)
+ Scout Bikes
+ Devastators
+ Whirlwinds
+ Hunter
+ Stalker
+ Land Raider Redeemer
+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport
+ Initiates are 5 points cheaper (counting Frag and Krak Grenade upgrades)
+ Sword Brother option in Crusader Squad
+ Keep Initiate Power Weapon/Fist option
+ Neophyte leadership increased to Ld 8
+ Neophyte Shotguns S4
+ Crusader Squad keeps Pistol and Chainsword option
+ Crusader Squad Organization stays the same


Special Characters:
Marneus Calgar:
- 275 Points
- Artificer Armor standard (2+)
- God of War: May use a single Combat Doctrine twice per game
- Titanic Might: Re-rolls all armor penetrating hits in close combat. He may reroll glancing hits to attempt to get a penetrating hit. Must accept the second roll even if it is worse than the first.
- Warlord Trait: Rolls 3 times on the Warlord Table, rerolling doubles, and chooses a single Warlord Trait.
- Weapons and Ammo still the same. Terminator Armor still has Frag and Krak Grenades. Retain his Teleport Homer.
- Terminator Armor is 10 points and doesn't prevent sweeping advances.


Captain Cato Sicarius:
- 185 points
- Surprise Attack: +1 to Reserve Rolls
- Weapons still the same
- Battle-forged Heros: Pick a Tactical Squad and they gain Counter-Attack, Infiltrate or Scout.
- May still use the Coup-de-Grace with his sword.
- Warlord Trait: Rites of Battle

Tigirius:
- 165 points
- +1 Wound
- Master Psyker: May re-roll any or all of his rolls to choose which powers he knows. He has access to all the powers.
- ML3
- Hood of Hellfire: Psychic Hood that allows you to re-roll failed psychic tests
- Rod of Tigiruis: Same as before with the addition of Soulblaze
- Gift of Prescience: If your army contains Tigirius you may choose to re-roll reserves and apply the result to units of the same attachement.
- Warlord Trait: Storm of Fire

Cassius:
- Zealot
- All equipment the same
- Warlord Trait: Angel of Death

Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules

Sergeant Chronus:
- -20 points
- +1LD
- His vehicle gains It Will not Die

Khan:
- -35 points (bike is still 20 point upgrade)
- Bike does D3 Hammer of Wrath hits
- Furious Charge
- If Khan is your warlord friendly models with the Chapter Tactics White Scars special rule that are bikes or have dedicated transports have the Scout special rule.
- Khan makes all bike squads who are 5 bikes or more count as troop choices.
- Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity

Vulkan:
- The Forgefather: If Vulkan is your warlord, all meltas, multi-meltas and combi-meltas in this detachment become twin-linked.
- Lost Digital Weapons
- Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve

Shrike:
- 185 points
- Stealth
- Before deploying Shrike can only join a Jump Infantry unit
- Lost Fleet
- Weapons stayed the same
- Warlord Trait: Angel of Death

Lysander:
- +30 Points
- No more Bolter Defenses
- Icon of Obstinancey: All models with the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics re-roll failed morale and pinning checks
- Same wargear
Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity

Chapter Master Pedro Kantor:
- +1 Attack
- Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Kantor is your Warlord all models in Crimson Fist detachments have the Preferred Enemy (Orks) Special Rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor have +1 Attack while he lives. This bonus does not affector Kantor, and is not cimulative with the similar bonuse that the Chapter Banner gives.
- Still has Hold the Line: Crimson Fist Sternguard Veterans are scoring
- Same Wargear and points
- Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve

Helbrect:
- 180 points
- +1 WS
- Rites of Valor - Gone
- Crusade of Wrath: Once per game, during the Assualt Phase, all models with the Black Templar Chapter Tactics gain Hatred and Fleet until the end of the phase.
- Sword of the High Marshalls is the same
- Legacy of Dorn (+D3 attack on the charge) same

Grimaldus:
- 185 Points
- -1 BS
- +1 Wound
- -1 Attack
- It will Not Die (replaced "Only in Death Does Duty End"
- Zealot
- Relics of Hellsreach: Any Black Templar of a servitor in 6" gains a 6++ Invunerable save.
- Unmatched Zeal: Black Templar models within of 6" of Chaplain of Grimaldus have the Zealot special rule.

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tvih wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport

What about other squads, any word on them? After all basically all squads except assault squad can have LRC as dedicated in the current codex.

They didn't say. I'm going to ask them on Facebook.

I like how UM's can only use each thing once per game seems more balanced now that we have more info!

Raven Guard - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth Special Rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky Special Rules do not benefit from either rule.
Wings of Deliverance: Jump Infantry Models in this detachment may use their Jump Packs in both the movement and assault phases of the same turn. Futhermore, they must re-roll all failed to-wound rolls caused by their Hammer of Wrath hits.

Wait what.. Don't Jump Infantry have that Bulky rule?
So they want you to use Jump Packs, but you don't get Stealth in the first turn.

Raven Guard have Scout?

Holy outflanking everything!!

The Hunter sounds nifty now. It may only have one shot, but even if that shot misses there's a good chance it will goad your opponent into flying off the board anyway, meaning you still have negated that flyer for a turn.

Looking at the RG rules...

Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

Raven Guard chapter tactics look very interesting, but...*everything* gets scout? Wow.

Edit: Doesn't apply to bulky/very bulky units, but still

Kangodo wrote:
I like how UM's can only use each thing once per game seems more balanced now that we have more info!

Raven Guard - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth Special Rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky Special Rules do not benefit from either rule.
Wings of Deliverance: Jump Infantry Models in this detachment may use their Jump Packs in both the movement and assault phases of the same turn. Futhermore, they must re-roll all failed to-wound rolls caused by their Hammer of Wrath hits.

Wait what.. Don't Jump Infantry have that Bulky rule?
So they want you to use Jump Packs, but you don't get Stealth in the first turn.

I think it makes sense fluff and tactics wise...kinda. And I think it gives a nice army-wide boost and specialization to JP troops, and then everything else.

I understand not wanting to have jump packs with scout, they are getting a big boost to their threat range with being able to use jump packs in movement and assault. This might also make non-JP assault option more of an option at times. Vanguard vets seem like they got a nice drop in points without jump-packs, so giving them some specialist weapons and letting them Scout might be worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaerros wrote:
Raven Guard chapter tactics look very interesting, but...*everything* gets scout? Wow.

Except Jump Packs, Terminators, Bikes, and the fancy new big guys. What else has Bulky or Very Bulky?

Also CT doesn't apply to vehicles.

But Sternguard in a Razorback...

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

No, they're 14 just like tacticals. As it says, counting frag+krak, which in the current codex makes an initiate cost 19. 19-5=14.

 tvih wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

No, they're 14 just like tacticals. As it says, counting frag+krak, which in the current codex makes an initiate cost 19. 19-5=14.

Counting frag and krak means including frag and krak in the listed points already.

EDIT: Corrected later, ignore this.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

No, 14 points, but they come standard with Frag&Krak grenades which were an upgrade that took them up to 19ppm before.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

No, they're 14 points a pop. They WERE 19 points if you took both Frag and Krak and now have a 5 point discount from that. I did specify that when I said it.

Are neophytes still 10 pts each or are they cheaper now?

The RG thing also incentivizes deep striking with your assault marines, which makes sense. They don't get stealth or scout, so don't start on the table at all, I guess! Unless you've got a real bad-ass to lead you in close, that is.

Quick question. Seeing that the current Space Marines codex is till up for sale at GW's website, if somebody completely new to the game decides to buy the codex now then realizes sometime later this week that a new one is coming out, will they be able to return it to GW and exchange?

For credit, if its in as new condition, in the UK, yes, by law.

Lookin like Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, White Scars, and Salamanders got the best of the traits.

Interesting. Thanks.

 tomjoad wrote:
The RG thing also incentivizes deep striking with your assault marines, which makes sense. They don't get stealth or scout, so don't start on the table at all, I guess! Unless you've got a real bad-ass to lead you in close, that is.

While prob not über competitive, I am considering 3 Stormtalons and a pair of Stomrravens in a list, so I might put some ASM in the big birds for a real air cav feel!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Interesting. Thanks.

You'd need proof of purchase too, though that doesn't have to be, as is commonly believed, a receipt, a bank or credit card statement showing the transaction is also valid, but you may struggle with some stores to convince them.

 Chaplain Pallantide wrote:
Are neophytes still 10 pts each or are they cheaper now?

I assume they cost the same as the scouts, who are now 11 points each.

Wow, Khan might turn into one of the most used characters. White Scars CT's are solid and he makes bikes troops and gives you scout on all your dedicated transport based units....

***Edit***

Scouts are cheaper than the DA version?

 azreal13 wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
The RG thing also incentivizes deep striking with your assault marines, which makes sense. They don't get stealth or scout, so don't start on the table at all, I guess! Unless you've got a real bad-ass to lead you in close, that is.

While prob not über competitive, I am considering 3 Stormtalons and a pair of Stomrravens in a list, so I might put some ASM in the big birds for a real air cav feel!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Interesting. Thanks.

You'd need proof of purchase too, though that doesn't have to be, as is commonly believed, a receipt, a bank or credit card statement showing the transaction is also valid, but you may struggle with some stores to convince them.

There's nothing about assault marines as troops is there? Even if there is, I'd advise against ever putting marines in a Raven...but, that's a topic for another day.

With the apparent adjustment of Tac squads to one special/heavy per 5 man team, has the use of multiple baby Dev squads cropped up in one of the pages I haven't really read properly?

Wow, 4 of you correcting me. Lol. I feel loved. Zion, there's 152 pages: I missed you specifying 14, I just saw "down 5", and their old cost was 16, so...I assumed 11. 14 doesn't exactly thrill me: losing extra toys on bikes kills the Space Knight feel they had. No rage kills the crazy zealot feel of them. The special characters feel half assed, the Champion feels like they took the most expensive option he had away that boosted the whole army, but kept his cost. I'll still buy the book, and I hate sounding like I'm a downer, I really do guys. But the chapter I finally decided upon just ended up feeling half assed. I'm still gonna try to make the best of it.

Using Tigurius got a lot more attractive. Especially if he has three wounds. And permanent access to Storm of Fire! That's pretty damn good, too!

Grav Amp / Cannon being a 20pt upgrade wasn't really surprising. Still might be decent, considering the amount of fire it squishes out.

EDIT: Taking a Khan List is kind of tempting, especially looking at how much betters bikes may have just gotten. Dang.

 tomjoad wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
The RG thing also incentivizes deep striking with your assault marines, which makes sense. They don't get stealth or scout, so don't start on the table at all, I guess! Unless you've got a real bad-ass to lead you in close, that is.

While prob not über competitive, I am considering 3 Stormtalons and a pair of Stomrravens in a list, so I might put some ASM in the big birds for a real air cav feel!

There's nothing about assault marines as troops is there? Even if there is, I'd advise against ever putting marines in a Raven...but, that's a topic for another day.

I use Ravens a lot, as I started my Raven Guard using the BA dex, so have had them for a while. There's no harm in using the transport feature, but you make dam sure you overfly where you want them and drop them first turn. Interceptor doesn't trigger until the end of the move phase, so it is relatively low risk. I've even done it with a Dread a time or two

 Hulksmash wrote:
Wow, Khan might turn into one of the most used characters. White Scars CT's are solid and he makes bikes troops and gives you scout on all your dedicated transport based units....

***Edit***

Scouts are cheaper than the DA version?

Rumor had it in the past that they went down 2 points and they currently cost 13. But maybe that's wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tomjoad wrote:
[There's nothing about assault marines as troops is there? Even if there is, I'd advise against ever putting marines in a Raven...but, that's a topic for another day.

No, no Assault Marines as troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Wow, 4 of you correcting me. Lol. I feel loved. Zion, there's 152 pages: I missed you specifying 14, I just saw "down 5", and their old cost was 16, so...I assumed 11. 14 doesn't exactly thrill me: losing extra toys on bikes kills the Space Knight feel they had. No rage kills the crazy zealot feel of them. The special characters feel half assed, the Champion feels like they took the most expensive option he had away that boosted the whole army, but kept his cost. I'll still buy the book, and I hate sounding like I'm a downer, I really do guys. But the chapter I finally decided upon just ended up feeling half assed. I'm still gonna try to make the best of it.

I don't think you should blame this codex for taking things that were doomed to be lost. There was a LOT about the Templars that was just way out of step with the rest of the game and now it's gone, just like it would have been if it was full codex for them.

I don't think Templars are ruined forever (unlike parts of the Internet have claimed) just that they fit the game a little differently than before. When people are already bringing all shooty Templar lists of 10 men in a Rhino and going to ground to keep from Zealing off the objectives the army was already a bit out of wack. At least now they're not being punished when you try and play the mission.

Plus with the points decreases Black Tide is cheaper if you want to go that route.

The Champion is likely paying that 50 points for his AP2 sword, the extra attack he can get from his Bolt Pistol, his combat stances, and his 4++ he gets all the time now. That's just a guess.

 tomjoad wrote:
There's nothing about assault marines as troops is there? Even if there is, I'd advise against ever putting marines in a Raven...but, that's a topic for another day.

Korvydae makes them troops.
You only need 1 unit of Scouts, which isn't such a bad thing now they can get 2+ cover for the first turn if you put them in Ruins.