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 Daba wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
the new White Dwarf pics sre pretty cool...
Forge Word steal the show again, with Erebus and Kor Phaeron...
ironically enough, the Tac Squad looks to be the best new kit of the release...
relatively cheap, and loads of cool new bits...

i'm looking forward to reading this issue on Friday...

cheers
jah

Actually I think the two look rather poor. Erabus (power armour guy?) is too blinged up, though apart from that I don't mind him too much, but the other guylooks as dorky as the Termitubbies; his arms look really short, as do his legs because of his overall fatness (even compared with regular terminators) and his face looks like he's taking a crap.

Kor Phaeron looking so awkward is what makes him great. He's not actually a Space Marine, just a genetically modified human, and the model plays that up and really emphasizes it, which is also his biggest insecurity. I think it has a lot of character!

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


It gets even better, if the point values for upgrades stay the same, it'll cost you only 555 pts for 3 units of 5 Honor Guard, ALL WITH RELIC BLADES!

Damn, I'm ACTUALLY considering UM now...

That sounds nasty, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. Delivering those models to their target is always tough, so I think I'd personally opt for more models, giving 1 or 2 relic blades and the company champ a TH, than go all relic blades.

I could see an opponent chewing through 6-7 Honor Guard in a turn with a bunch of plasma/small arms fire, so three units of five could become three units of three pretty quick, while losing 7 of 30 still means you've got 23 Honor guard ready to charge next turn.

Either way though, 25 points for a 2+, power sword wielding model is a huge steal.

Edit: whoops

I've tried posting this a dozen times now, but for some reason Dakka won't let me...

I've wanted to make an Honour Guard army for a very long time. I just love the concept of it and the Marneus in Terminator Armour model is one of my all time faves.

Pros

Cheap price for what you get - HG are expected to be 25pts for a 2+ sv, Boltgun and PW.
Tougher and more killy - A full squad has more attacks than an equally pointed Terminator Squad. It also has more wounds.
Jack of most trades - HG can shoot when needed and are great at CC.
Transport - You can fit a full squad, Calgar and one other Terminator Character into a Crusader. Thats a lot of points, but a ton of pain.
Free FOC - They don't take a slot.

Cons

Not troops and not scoring - Never going to be either. This would make them waaaaaay too powerful and makes other squads redundant.
Calgar - You need to take Papa Smurf and he ain't cheap, but still, he's Calgar. He brings a lot to the army for that obsence pts cost.
Delivery - They ideally need a delivery system. Land Raiders, Stormravens and to a lesser extent, Rhino and Razorback. Once they get there though, there won't be much that can stand in their way.
Tight Army Construction - Although the pts cost for three squads isn't that much, the remainder of the army needs to be air tight in construction. Remember they are not scoring or troops and you will only have a finite amount of points to get AA, AT and scoring troops.

You can also fit in up to 5 HG in a single army.

Take Calgar - 0-3.
Take a Chapter Master - 1 more.
Take an allied Chapter Master - 1 more for a total of 5.

Obviously you need to be playing a very big game to be playing that.

I can really see the army working in games of 1500+. The sweet spot may be 1750 or 1850 as you'll still have points left over to take scoring troops and AA/AT and your opponent may not be able to handle 30+ bodies with a 2+ sv and mostly armed with PW.

Another good thing about this army, is that it is fairly cheap to make. You can convert your own HG and with the cost of each squad being so high, you won't have too many models to buy.

Definitely an army I'm keeping an eye on.

Puscifer wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:



Delivery - They ideally need a delivery system. Land Raiders, Stormravens and to a lesser extent, Rhino and Razorback. Once they get there though, there won't be much that can stand in their way.

What about Drop Podding them in, or it is sounding like they lost that as a dedicated transport in the new codex?

Anyone know if the razorback options like the lascannon + twinlinked plasma guns will remain?

Hopefully the special/heavy weapon costs go down for the LOTD. I am looking forward to fielding them.

Tau would be a big problem for Honor Guard, but that's only if they max out on plasma. A lot of Tau armies I've seen have taken a more balanced approach, taking a good mix of AP1/2, AP3, and AP4+ weaponry that usually results in enough firepower to end 5-10 TDA equivalents if they focus fire, but not enough to down 20-30.

Any why would they? Almost no armies can spam 2+ save guys, and the one codex where you could still get Hammernaters for "cheap" is raising the price 5 pts a pop. It's overkill to bring that much plasma and AP2, when likely same strength AP4 missiles will do the trick similarly effectively, but cheaper.

3 units of honor guard, especially filled out, could be effective in a drop pod army. Drop some tactical squads with melta guns on the enemy's doorstep turn 1, crack some transports or some heavy fire support, and then when the Honor guard drop, use the pods to block LOS for most things (6 or so on the table ought to do the trick) while dangling the tactical squads there as well. And even if they do have a lot of plasma around, they might focus fire one squad of honor guard down, but the other two then likely get to ignore the brunt of the firepower, and can charge.

A Tau list specifically tailored to kill 2+ saves could certainly counter it hard, but then it likely wouldn't be very TAC and would die to armies with numbers of models over quality of models.

 aliusexalio wrote:
Anyone know if the razorback options like the lascannon + twinlinked plasma guns will remain?

I don't think there's been confirmation either way, but DA still has that option, so I imagine C:SM will still have it.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Tau would be a big problem for Honor Guard, but that's only if they max out on plasma. A lot of Tau armies I've seen have taken a more balanced approach, taking a good mix of AP1/2, AP3, and AP4+ weaponry that usually results in enough firepower to end 5-10 TDA equivalents if they focus fire, but not enough to down 20-30.

Any why would they? Almost no armies can spam 2+ save guys, and the one codex where you could still get Hammernaters for "cheap" is raising the price 5 pts a pop. It's overkill to bring that much plasma and AP2, when likely same strength AP4 missiles will do the trick similarly effectively, but cheaper.

3 units of honor guard, especially filled out, could be effective in a drop pod army. Drop some tactical squads with melta guns on the enemy's doorstep turn 1, crack some transports or some heavy fire support, and then when the Honor guard drop, use the pods to block LOS for most things (6 or so on the table ought to do the trick) while dangling the tactical squads there as well. And even if they do have a lot of plasma around, they might focus fire one squad of honor guard down, but the other two then likely get to ignore the brunt of the firepower, and can charge.

A Tau list specifically tailored to kill 2+ saves could certainly counter it hard, but then it likely wouldn't be very TAC and would die to armies with numbers of models over quality of models.

A lot of armies can take out HG Spam.

Eldar and their Wraithspam (especially the Scythewraiths), Tau if kitted out with enough AP2, IG will tear them a new one with their shooting and Pie Plates (Oh the horror of the Executioner) and Orks will butcher them in CC through weight of numbers.

This is a very tough army, but in no means unbeatable.

You've nailed it on the head with DP. I'm hoping they've kept the option as they would make outstanding frontline DP troops.

Thinking about it, I'd probably choose units from this list...

HQ

Calgar in either form.
Either a choice of another CM with HG or Tigurius.

3 HG - Bolters and PW in DP if they can take them. Not sure on which weapons though.

Elites

Sternguard in DP, armed with either Combi Melta or those new Combi Grav guns - if they are good against armour.
Assault Terminators. Still Ballbreakingly good. Forms a solid counter charge unit. Teleports onto Calgar's Homer.

Troops

One full squad of Scouts with Telion - do they have a Locator Beacon? I'm not a Marine Player, so I don't know.
2 Tactical Squads in Rhino - Weapons to taste.

Fast Attack

Not a fan of FA but if I were to take anything, I'd take the Stormtalon - just cuz... Flyer.

Heavy Support

If not taking a Flyer, I'd take one of those AA Tanks and two Vindicators.

This is a very aggressive army. Could work.

The thing with Honor guard, like all marines, is that delivery is key. Thirty Honor Guard will do little good against Tau if you footslog them or put them in rhinos and move them slowly, but that's pretty much the same for all marines.

Drop pods work well, as do having a bunch of distraction units, or Land Raiders.

That's why if I was running 30 HG, I'd only do so with something like 6 pods, with the first 3 having Tac squads with meltas. I probably wouldn't run it any other way, unless I wanted to spring for the Land Raiders.

Which, admittedly, would be really expensive (3x250 + 3x275 = 1525, assuming 10xHG with TH on champion, before HQ), but I'd enjoy my opponent's tears as 30 Honor Guard punch into their lines.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Tau would be a big problem for Honor Guard, but that's only if they max out on plasma.

And Riptides

And Fire Warriors.

Well, after giving it a second thought, the only weapons that aren't AP1-2 and can turn up in the army are High-Yield Missile Pods, Pulse Rifles/Carbines, Seeker Missiles and Ion Cannons. The pulse weapons will have the volume of fire to bring down the Honor Guard and the others could take the choice to obliterate the rest of your army. And at the end of the day, you can have your 30 Honor Guards only to feed the glory-train of the Tau Master Race. Job well done !

But seriously... You are spending 1000+ points (!!!!!) for three big units of one-trick ponies and Papa Smurf... And the only thing you have accomplished is that you can kill random footsloggers if they are nice enough to get into charge range and not, say, run away or hide in their metal bawkses.

DogofWar1 wrote:
The thing with Honor guard, like all marines, is that delivery is key. Thirty Honor Guard will do little good against Tau if you footslog them or put them in rhinos and move them slowly, but that's pretty much the same for all marines.

Drop pods work well, as do having a bunch of distraction units, or Land Raiders.

That's why if I was running 30 HG, I'd only do so with something like 6 pods, with the first 3 having Tac squads with meltas. I probably wouldn't run it any other way, unless I wanted to spring for the Land Raiders.

Which, admittedly, would be really expensive (3x250 + 3x275 = 1525, assuming 10xHG with TH on champion, before HQ), but I'd enjoy my opponent's tears as 30 Honor Guard punch into their lines.

I like that concept, personaly though i would go with Plasma. I would also use poded Strernguard

I wouldn't call thirty HG and adequate delivery systems a one trick pony.

I'd find that damn scary.

They are something you cannot ignore and must deal with. In a TAC environment, not much could deal with that.

They also don't cost much more than Veterans, and in fact cost pretty much the same as Vets from 5th.

Speculatively assuming 25 pts per, plus 10 extra for champion, and another 15 for TH, that's 275 for 10, plus another 35 for rhino/drop pod = 310 pts for 10 2+ save models with power swords and a thunder hammer champ.

Basically Honor Guard in 6th are what non-jump pack Vanguard Veterans should have been in 5th. I'm sure if applied with sound tactics and solid delivery mechanics, Honor Guard could be downright deadly.

Puscifer wrote:

They are something you cannot ignore and must deal with. In a TAC environment, not much could deal with that.

Why should you deal with them? They are Infantry and not Beasts/Flyingwhatever that can chase me down. They can't shoot really well (bolters are not the pinnacle of shooting, so to say) and they can't bust vehicles from range and even up-close, their effectiveness is questionable. They can't do anything else other than soaking up fire and wrecking MEQ or worse face in close-combat. They won't protect your tacticals from the baledrakes, they won't help you against suits (they will just run away, except the Riptide that will beat the sh*t out of the HG) and most importantly, they won't score you objectives. In return, you will have far less stuff to do all these things so unless you are a tactical genius and/or your opponent is a complete moron, you will fight an uphill battle. A rather steep one.

But hey, at least it can beat a full-Khorne CSM army (without baledrakes of course)!

I've been making some tentative army lists myself and I must say I love the Iron Hands CT the most as they don't force you down any particular path. No matter what you take, you get a bonus.

It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?

 tarnish wrote:
It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?

It's amazing to me that noone managed to read the past couple of pages and see the links to Erebus and Kor Phaeron...I kid I keeeeeed, but really take a peek before you get too uppity.

2 pages back you can see someone has taken the time to host this for your convenience.

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/september-2013-white-dwarf.html

 tarnish wrote:
It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?

You mean like the ones that weren't rehosted on Zion's site and posted links to?
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/september-2013-white-dwarf.html#.Uhy96j-TLAM

 tarnish wrote:
It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?

I have them all on Talk Wargaming. I even put the Battle Report in order.

Edit:Ninja'd!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redemption wrote:

 tarnish wrote:
It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?

You mean like the ones that weren't rehosted on Zion's site and posted links to?
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/september-2013-white-dwarf.html#.Uhy96j-TLAM

It's actually not my site, I just post the news and rumors for there.

True, luckily barely anyone takes termies anymore, more so now that hammernators are gonna be 5 points more...

Not surprised that terminators keep costing 40-45 points since the sane thing would be to actually lower their cost as they are to expensive as they are.

Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.

Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?

If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?

 AtoMaki wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

They are something you cannot ignore and must deal with. In a TAC environment, not much could deal with that.

Why should you deal with them? They are Infantry and not Beasts/Flyingwhatever that can chase me down. They can't shoot really well (bolters are not the pinnacle of shooting, so to say) and they can't bust vehicles from range and even up-close, their effectiveness is questionable. They can't do anything else other than soaking up fire and wrecking MEQ or worse face in close-combat. They won't protect your tacticals from the baledrakes, they won't help you against suits (they will just run away, except the Riptide that will beat the sh*t out of the HG) and most importantly, they won't score you objectives. In return, you will have far less stuff to do all these things so unless you are a tactical genius and/or your opponent is a complete moron, you will fight an uphill battle. A rather steep one.

But hey, at least it can beat a full-Khorne CSM army (without baledrakes of course)!

If you don't deal with them, they are going to murder your infantry or worse. It's not the fact they will run you down, whatever they face in cc, will just die. They have enough attacks and wounds to take out anything.
Obviously you need to equip them for each eventuality, but seeing a unit of power axe wielding nutters take out an equally pointed assault terminator squad, I'm convinced that they will work.

Honorguard are in no way scary in 6th edition. They don't follow the 3 tenants of assaulting in 6th edition.
-Must re-roll charge range
-Must ignore cover
-Must move 12" in movement phase.

Only then is assaulting as reliable as shooting and thus viable.

They don't even meet one of those requirements! SM really don't have any decent assault elements for the current edition, much the same as Eldar.

 Kirasu wrote:
Honorguard are in no way scary in 6th edition. They don't follow the 3 tenants of assaulting in 6th edition.
-Must re-roll charge range
-Must ignore cover
-Must move 12" in movement phase.

Only then is assaulting as reliable as shooting and thus viable.

They don't even meet one of those requirements! SM really don't have any decent assault elements for the current edition, much the same as Eldar.

So you're saying all assault units should be Ravenguard Assault Marines?

I don't agree with your assessment if only for the fact that I don't agree with the idea that any unit should be eritten of just because it's not the most optimal choice ever. At least the 3 Units of Honor Guard and Calgar in a drop pod is an entertaining and interesting idea. The last thing this game needs is more codexes being told they can "only play effectively with. X" and reducing the game to a bunch if identical army lists.

Neither do Hammernators, yet they're still thought of as great CC units.

but seeing a unit of power axe wielding nutters take out an equally pointed assault terminator squad,

So everyones up to speed here's the maths 10 assault terminators will be 450 points (using big numbers for easy maths) that's 18 HG.

You strike at the same time (we'll assume you magically got into combat with no one charging)

Terminators: 20 attacks 10 Hits 8.33 dead HG.
HG: 54 attacks 27 hits 18 wounds 6 dead HG

HG lose combat but will win the war of attrition as the Terminators are down to 4 guys.

Round 2 assuming HG run away and the Teinators charge them:

Termmies: 12 attacks 6 hits 5 more dead.
HG: 30 attacks 15 hits 10 wounds 3 TDAs dead down to 1 Terminator...

Last round Terminators: 2 attacks 1 hit 1 dead.
HG: 15 attacks 7.5 hits 5 wounds last termmie is over killed. Still 4 HG left.

That's ignoring shooting (which HG do and Terminators don't) against any other type of terminator the story is worse for the Terminator. At 25 points HG become a top tier combat unit.

Puscifer wrote:

If you don't deal with them, they are going to murder your infantry or worse. It's not the fact they will run you down, whatever they face in cc, will just die. They have enough attacks and wounds to take out anything.

And what if the infantry they want to butcher simply runs away? It's not like they can really catch up...

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Honorguard are in no way scary in 6th edition. They don't follow the 3 tenants of assaulting in 6th edition.
-Must re-roll charge range
-Must ignore cover
-Must move 12" in movement phase.

Only then is assaulting as reliable as shooting and thus viable.

They don't even meet one of those requirements! SM really don't have any decent assault elements for the current edition, much the same as Eldar.

So you're saying all assault units should be Ravenguard Assault Marines?

I don't agree with your assessment if only for the fact that I don't agree with the idea that any unit should be eritten of just because it's not the most optimal choice ever. At least the 3 Units of Honor Guard and Calgar in a drop pod is an entertaining and interesting idea. The last thing this game needs is more codexes being told they can "only play effectively with. X" and reducing the game to a bunch if identical army lists.

+1.

Heaven forbid people play different armies that suit their play style.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

Siigh.. Black Templars, the only chapter in the Imperium that will complain for hitting on initiative with AP2.
Because how many characters can do that?

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex... And between Daemon Princes and Bloodthirsters the EC has a snowball's chance in hell. Yeah, maybe he can beat Captains, Tau Commanders and their ilk, but they are low-league players so no glory in doing that.

DPs and Bloodthirsters cost about twice as much as the EC, so we might not expect him to have much of a chance in hell. If he was 300 points, maybe he should be able to stand up to a bloodthirster

 Vain wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.

Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?

If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?

Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.