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 Glizzy6d wrote:
Not really worth fighting over. The SOB are fanatics, and have their own fanatics. The fact remains though, the Dark Eldar used to look terrible and sell terrible, then they got some love and look amazing (best 40k models IMO**) but still sell very poorly. SOB are a niche army and will get the niche treatment.

Power levels also have an impact on sales. 6th ed wasn't kind to to DE, and it's not like it was ever GK or IG power level in 5th ed. It always was and likely always will a finicky army that either wins hard or loses horribly, and that probably discourages people from buying.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

Ahahahaha!

Man that statement and your follow up is going to piss off a lot of people, including my wife.

While I like you as a person, what you have said is stupid and is going to ingnite some fires.

Me? While I think your declarations are dumb and wrong, I will be watching those more fond of the sisters tear you a new one with some popcorn.

*snort* Popcorn

No fight here. I treat trolls like I treat riptides. I ignore them.

They don't have magical powers, their Acts of Faith are just the updated version of their original Rites of Battle rolls. :p

fluffstalker wrote:

 Glizzy6d wrote:
Not really worth fighting over. The SOB are fanatics, and have their own fanatics. The fact remains though, the Dark Eldar used to look terrible and sell terrible, then they got some love and look amazing (best 40k models IMO**) but still sell very poorly. SOB are a niche army and will get the niche treatment.

Power levels also have an impact on sales. 6th ed wasn't kind to to DE, and it's not like it was ever GK or IG power level in 5th ed. It always was and likely always will a finicky army that either wins hard or loses horribly, and that probably discourages people from buying.

Very true. I'm still hoping DE gets an updated codex for 6th although I highly doubt it. Here's hoping for A Duke model eventually as well.

 Glizzy6d wrote:
Very true. I'm still hoping DE gets an updated codex for 6th although I highly doubt it. Here's hoping for A Duke model eventually as well.

Why wouldn't they? Wasn't it stated that they want 6th to last a long time, and have updated codices for everyone within that time? Given the rate at which the new stuff's been coming out since January, it seems like they mean it.

Furyou Miko wrote:They don't have magical powers, their Acts of Faith are just the updated version of their original Rites of Battle rolls. :p

I've given him the Codex quote ("miraculous to the unschooled") on that before - I think he just prefers to ignore what the books actually say.

Although it is worth pointing out that some non-GW sources actually do give them magical powers. It's one of the reasons for why I don't like what FFG did with them. Alas, the woes of being the fan of a setting that does not enforce a uniform canon!

Thanks for the RT recollection, Lynata. I agree that the change and factioning is not outside the core fluff, but provides something to build upon. A lot changes in 10 Millennium, and the start of the SoB came in the middle of this shift in the 40K 'verse.

CleansingFire wrote:something to build upon

That's exactly how they've explained their thoughts in the designer's notes on the 3E 'dex!

"With this Codex, we've aimed to remain faithful to the rich history of the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy, but we've also aimed to move the story on – not by contradicting anything previously published but by expanding the background in directions not yet explored."
- WD #292

Also, you are quite welcome.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They don't have magical powers, their Acts of Faith are just the updated version of their original Rites of Battle rolls. :p

Except totally different.

The original rules were based around the idea that they were ridiculously self disciplined and fanatical. Immunity to fear, subject to hatred, +1 to Leadership, immune to psychology. The closest it got to a special power was the save versus psyker effects, but at least it fit the concept. They were so determined and focused that psychic energy had less of an effect. "An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates un-barred and it's walls unguarded" and all that jazz, no? And the Sacred Rites had nothing to do with the God Emperor who isn't actually a God. It just had to do with them being

Then, suddenly, magical cleric powers.

Get stronger. Wound better. Get faster. Get invulnerable save.

Then 5th Ed magic powers.

Hit faster. Run faster. Get stronger. Shoot more accurately. Wound more reliably. Penetrate armor more easily.



Yeah. Totally the same thing.


Read the description. "instill in their followers an unshakeable faith in the Emprah, driving them on to higher acts of bravery or determination, and strengthening people's minds against the perils of enemy psykers".

vs

"Acts of Faith are the manifestation of the Emprah's divine purpose; small miracles"

Manifestation. b. The materialized form of a spirit.

Magical D&D cleric powers.

But what about the 2e and 5e codexes saying that they only seem miraculous? You seem to be ignoring that.

To quote the 5e codex, with emphasis on key words: "Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows the Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible"

The part you're quoting seems to be compatible with this. "Manifestation of the Empror's divine purpose" just refers to the Acts of Faith being a result of the Sisters believing in their religion very hard, I'd say.

 Lynata wrote:

Furyou Miko wrote:They don't have magical powers, their Acts of Faith are just the updated version of their original Rites of Battle rolls. :p

I've given him the Codex quote ("miraculous to the unschooled") on that before - I think he just prefers to ignore what the books actually say.

Well, to be entirely fair to you, you've been wrong every time.

Because the book very specifically calls them "miracles" (p.18 C:WH, White Dwarf, pg 94), and refers to the intervention of the Emprah (WD pg 94). But I know you prefer to cherry pick your preferred language and ignore anything you don't like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:
But what about the 2e and 5e codexes saying that they only seem miraculous? You seem to be ignoring that.

To quote the 5e codex, with emphasis on key words: "Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows the Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible"

The part you're quoting seems to be compatible with this. "Manifestation of the Empror's divine purpose" just refers to the Acts of Faith being a result of the Sisters believing in their religion very hard, I'd say.

Come on. I know you guys hate being wrong, but how can you, with a straight face, type that line of complete garbage with a straight face and not expect me to throw a flag with the second and nineteenth letters embroidered on it?

The very next line reads "Yet miracles are not to be relied upon". And the very next line after that includes "he will intervene to deliver his true servants. And then you want to pretend that because that one line could be interpreted as the powers not being magical, that it overrules the next two sentences which say, in no uncertain language, that the powers are magical?

Good Lord. It's like you think you're the only ones with access to these books.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Come on. I know you guys hate being wrong, but how can you, with a straight face, type that line of complete garbage with a straight face and not expect me to throw a flag with the second and nineteenth letters embroidered on it?

The very next line reads "Yet miracles are not to be relied upon". And the very next line after that includes "he will intervene to deliver his true servants. And then you want to pretend that because that one line could be interpreted as the powers not being magical, that it overrules the next two sentences which say, in no uncertain language, that the powers are magical?

Good Lord. It's like you think you're the only ones with access to these books.

...

That very sentence you quoted begins with "At the heart of the Imperial Creed is the belief that..."

Also, do you really need to pepper your counter-points with insults towards other posters?

#munch munch munch# "Mmmm.. popcorn" #munch munch munch#


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hate to interupt, but this pointless character directed rhetoric is what is called a "flame war" I suggest you both take a breather and come back after that or the shiney yellow triangle gets pushed

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Acts of Faith are the manifestation of the Emprah's divine purpose; small miracles

I've bolded the part that is more important.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Manifestation. b. The materialized form of a spirit.

1.a The act of manifesting.
1.b The state of being manifested.
2. An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something: A high fever is an early manifestation of the disease.
3.a One of the forms in which someone or something, such as a person, a divine being, or an idea, is revealed.
3.b The materialized form of a spirit.
4. A public demonstration, usually of a political nature.

Heh. And you say *I* am cherrypicking.

Troike wrote:Also, do you really need to pepper your counter-points with insults towards other posters?

If he wants to sabotage his own credibility, let him. To paraphrase BSG, all of this has happened before, and it will happen again.

I contacted their support a couple months ago as a local store in my area told me that GWS concluded their sales of Sisters and that the army was no longer played (having not been in the hobby for several years). Needless to say I was disappointed and contacted GWS to see about it. I was assured they are in the works and will get an update "soon" but that GWS was uncertain when they'd have an update for them.

So a bit of a 'yep something's coming! just dunno when' response. Could be typical Customer Service but I like to think that its a true response

Eh, there's no flame war.

They get all pithy and throw insults when I simply quote printed text. Then pretend that I hurt their feelings by showing them they are wrong.

I mean, if they're going to use language like "he prefers to ignore what the books actually say" which, is an insult, it's only natural that I'm going to find it humorous when I can quote them exactly what the book says.


The fluff is what it is. I mean, I truly don't understand why there's so much resistance to it. 40K is not about subtlety. There's no hidden language.

This isn't Hills Like White Elephants where there is subtext and and symbolism, and the true nature of the story is up for interpretation.


And it isn't like there aren't dozens of contradictions and ridiculousness to every faction, so there's no need to instantly get defensive when something in the fluff for the Sisters is show to be kinda stupid. If the fluff wasn't kinda stupid most of the time, what would there be for people on this forum to complain about? This stuff isn't being written by award winners. It's frame text to provide background fluff to rules for a plastic toy soldiers game.

Ugh, please.

1. Just because you like to believe you have "shown us we are wrong" does not make it so. As you continue to see resistance to your opinion, your argument was simply not good enough to convince anyone else.
2. Don't attribute what I as an individual am saying to an entire group in an effort to put some sort of label on them.
3. Stating the truth is not an insult. I have pointed out the quote multiple times by now, yet every time you come back as if it had never happened.
4. Don't hide behind your "but I make fun of every faction" excuse now. I'm frequenting a lot of threads, yet it's only when SoB are discussed that you feel a need to show up and bash the faction for supposedly bad fluff and its players for being, how did you put it last time ... ah, yes, "weird dudes and gamer girlfriends".

Now we are close to a flamewar.

Can't you just leave us alone, please?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And it isn't like there aren't dozens of contradictions and ridiculousness to every faction, so there's no need to instantly get defensive when something in the fluff for the Sisters is show to be kinda stupid.

But there's no contradiction. The codex material is pretty clearly saying that it's their sheer belief that lets them do their Acts of Faith, not magic.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
by showing them they are wrong.

Where did you do that? Codex fluff seems to be supporting the not-magic interpretation.

Make models that aren't almost as old as I am. And i'm down.

And you know... Since the Deldar were mentioned imagine what GW could do if they -really- got down to buisness with new sister models were made considering the transition from the 90's Deldar to the new codex.

And this argument is fething childish. The thread sort of sniffs of flamebait to begin with.

Anyway, regarding the models, I saw a nice idea yesterday. To get around the problem of the arm cloths being difficult to make posable, the models could all be snap-fit. That way we get non-metal minis without the quality risks presented by finecast (though they apparently have improved finecast, I'd still be more comfortable with plastic).

text deleted.

Reds8n

Why are you still saying that you were stating "the truth"? You had no response to my post about that phrase you quoted being preceded by saying it was just what the Imperial Creed believed.

And goddamn, man. Nobody said anything about your personal life or credibility. It's kind of weird that you gave a whole speech about it out of nowhere, really.

And Sisters players don't "like" to feel persecuted. That's very presumptuous of you to say, don't you think? Personally, I'd love to not be "persecuted", and all the fans wishing for new models and a new codex seem to suggest that they feel the same.

Edit: wow, this and the Skyrim thread sure have been good for my power level post count. I have now reached the rank of Repentia Mistress!

1. And an idea is only an idea (and will be treated as such) until actually proven.
2. A set of individuals is a group.
3. Are you disputing that this quote has been provided before? Because I can easily find earlier occasions of this debate. Look, here is one example where a number of SoB fans tried to debate the topic with you. As I said, all of this has happened before. Several times. Yet here we are again.
4. I think I'm pretty calm. You're the one throwing around insults and acting all emotional. This should give you something to think about.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You don't like me because of who I am. I'm smart, I'm well spoken, I did all kinds of things both physical and academic. I'm college educated, was a Marine, and I have an intellectually demanding career, based around creativity and the ability to derive insights from both behavior and data. So there's a certain amount of envy-derived hatred that I'm used to.

Don't forget to also mention that you are dating models, have experience in running a business (thus qualifying you, and only you, to talk about GW business decisions), and that you are a professional writer - all whilst simultaneously keeping up with your regular online appearance on a tabletop gamer board!

...

[edit] added post links to spread the fun

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
1. Resistance to ideas does not automatically invalidate the ideas. Plenty of people believed the Earth was flat and called Columbus a fool. That didn't make it flat.

You do know that the whole flat earth and columbus thing is just a myth right. We've known that the earth is round since about 400BC.

 Troike wrote:
Why are you still saying that you were stating "the truth"? You had no response to my post about that phrase you quoted being preceded by saying it was just what the Imperial Creed believed.

I ignore it because it's just adding extra posts to this already "lost cause" thread you guys have once again self-destructed with fruitless arguments against my posts.

What would the difference be what the "belief" is? That's irrelevant, since the belief is demonstrably correct. The Imperial Creed believe in the Emperor as a God. The Acts of Faith prove he is a god and gives them magical powers. See, that's the thing about textual and contextual analysis. You don't get to leave out the parts you don't like.

And goddamn, man. Nobody said anything about your personal life or credibility. It's kind of weird that you gave a whole speech about it out of nowhere, really.

It's not out of nowhere. You're just not versed enough in the greater "Lynata against the world" narrative. Don't sweat it. You're better off that way.

And Sisters players don't "like" to feel persecuted. That's very presumptuous of you to say, don't you think?

Nope. I guess it's not all Sisters players. Just the most vocal and passionate ones. It's pretty basic groupthink and herd mentality stuff, from a sociological perspective. The online SIsters community is small and tend to be self-reinforcing. The same ideas get tossed around a lot, and repeated enough that the other members assume them to be truths. I'm not faulting you for it. It's just an observation. I mean, the very fact that I can predict what you're going to say rather proves the idea that you all tend to say the same basic things. /shrug.

Personally, I'd love to not be "persecuted", and all the fans wishing for new models and a new codex seem to suggest that they feel the same.

Yes, but that's not the point. Sure, you'd love to get new models and a new codex, but it hasn't happened, and there's the common perception that it isn't happening. Thus the persecution gives you a common enemy. Games Workshop is stupid. They don't know how to run their business. If they would only make new models, they'd make a ton of money. But no, they won't give us what we want because they are stupid. Then, when people like myself point out that the reason why Sisters haven't been revamped is probably due to very simple business reasons, it becomes another common ground. He obviously hates the Sisters, and he is stupid.

You guys feed off of eachother. It's rather amusing. Ultimately, what did I say that set off this thread? I said that the Sisters of Battle had their fluff changed. Good lord, that's so ridiculously minor, it's hardly worth a bit of concern. But you two jumped on me like rabid dogs. Fortunately, I've got one of those super sweet padded sleeves the police use to train their service animals, so you were left to chew fruitlessly. Why did you jump on me? Because I threatened your perception and group identity. It isn't like this is some kind of rocket surgery. Anyone who paid attention in a freshman level sociology class can pick out the behavior. You don't want the Sisters to be D&D Clerics because that makes them less serious. I've already accepted that 40K isn't serious, so that idea isn't offensive to me. That's why Lynata's attempts to insult me in the past by calling me a Space Marine fanboy are so impotent. Because I don't take anything about the Space Marines seriously enough to get offended about.

This is the problem you have. You continually take the low road, and insult me. Then because you cannot find purchase with your insults, and I just laugh it off, you become offended. You said I was insulting you, when all I asked was how you could quote one line from a series of sentences, and ignore the rest of them. It offended you because it revealed either an intentional omission which suggests deceit, or an unintentional omission which suggests you don't understand the material. I didn't insult you. I simply pointed that out.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You're just not versed enough in the greater "Lynata against the world" narrative.

Given all those other threads where it's just you first stirring up an argument, then accusing others of having no clue etc, it actually seems to be a "Veteran Sergeant against the world" narrative. Look, you even said it yourself.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:That's why Lynata's attempts to insult me in the past by calling me a Space Marine fanboy are so impotent.

I'm fairly sure this never happened. Feel free to provide quotes to the contrary, though, and you'll get an apology. I like to believe I'm better than you, after all.

I would like to note that the existence of the Sisters of Battle is mentioned in the Apocalypse book (page 32 of the iPad edition, on the Divine Intervention table, for one spot); I doubt they're going to vanish entirely, even if it takes a while to get a new book and they still aren't competitive after it. Though a generic Living Saint would be an interesting way for GW to keep with the current trend of giving the new army some giant nasty monster that they can sell as an $80 plastic kit.

text removed.

Reds8n

Getting back on topic (because fluff arguements aren't on topic and realistically both interpretations can be correct in a setting that include Living Saints and Ephrael Stern in the canon), I don'tsee Sisters going away. With the amount of feedback that devs persistently get they know there is a dedicated fan base out here who wants them, and they've said it's hard to just kill an army. We'rewaiting ans they know it.

Phil Kelly at the Into the Citadel was quoted as having said that he had an interest in working on the book, that there were at least 3 staff members that had them as one of their armies (if not not their main army, this wasn't 100% clear) and that the big thing olding them back was the current level of their molding technology.

It seems the issue isn't sleeves (well anymore) but rather that the Sisters' design has detail that doesn't just go in the direction their plastic molds work in. Image in circle with a line bisecting it from left to right. Now any detail that is perpendicular to this line is fine as it doesn't have a way to get stuck in the mold or get damaged by the mold. Sisters, in their current design, have details that basically expand from the center of the circle in a series of directions that are not perpandicular to that bisecting line.

Add in details that create problems due to under cuts if not made seperatetly (the shoulder pads for example) and you quickly have a group of models with a lot of detail that face a potential design tweaking to be castable in plastic. Add in the issues of ensuring all the larts on the sprue are laid out correctly and that the cast peices can indeed make the model easilly and correctly and you have months and months of design work, and sprue tinkering to deal with before they even get as far as looking at how they're going to update them.

Now this isn't to say some of these problems haven't been fixed by now, but they are legitimate reasons why Sisters haven't been updated yet. Much like the Dark Eldar, an pdate is coming and the Devs want to do it right, we just need to accept that it might not be as quick as we would like.

A highly educated ultrafit marine corps member whos shagged supermodels. Forgive me if this lanky slavic lab monkey married to a mousey girl who used to leave tacks in his seat in grade school is a tad...dubious of your claims. With your Resume you should be out curing cancer, ending the great recession, beating Al Queada to death with your fists, writing the next lord of the rings, all while having a foursome with Emma Stone, Megan Fox, and Scarlett Johannson.

Of course I occasionally show up to inhouse 40k games gakfaced drunk so what do I know?