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I was sitting at my local 24 hour eatery looking through my chaos codex, and I noticed a few things that struck me as awesome opportunities for conversion and modelling, as well as interesting possibilities for truly interesting rules interactions.... thoughts and additions are certainly appreciated, and I hope this will bring up some good discussion of potential and rules within the codex and rules.

- Why can't the warpsmith or dark apostle take demonic steeds? This, I think, has a plethora of opportunities for some truly awesome conversions, as well as the opportunity to to make these options a bit more viable. Warpsmith on a juggernaut, anyone? Certainly a fluffy sight for an armor-laden siege-breaking list, no? How about a dark apostle on a disc of tzeench or a palanquin of nurgle, elevated above the battlefield, shouting dark litanies to his followers below? Seems like an awesome idea to me.

- Chaos vehicle upgrades on demon engines. This one is directed at the 3 relative newcomers to the scene, the forgefiend, maulerfiend, and helldrake, specifically. Why is it that, despite their older brother, the defiler, having these options, the newbies aren't given the option to take any upgrades from the chaos vehicle equipment list? An up-armored maulerfiend with a havoc launcher and dirge caster? Sounds like awesome to me. What about a forgefiend with warpflame gargoyles, or giving the helldrake the option to take a combimelta? That strikes me as an opportunity for interesting things.

- Why is the dark apostle not just given VotLW in its special rules?

Anyone with anything else?

Dark Apostle gets zealot, which is better then VOTLW.

-The fact that those new daemon weapons can't be used anywhere else.

-The fact that the Warpsmith is basically a glorified master of the forge, but is worse off with less options.

-That Daemon units get Marked, but not Daemons of X. Only the Daemon Prince gets it, but not the others?

-That the mark isn't specific for units. I can take Mark of Slaanesh on Obliterators (see above topic) but it won't do a thing because they can only hit at I1.

How about why does taking a mark for a unit or character not give them similar benefits to the cult troop of that god?

LIke for example, how a Plague Marine gets -1 I, + 1 T, Fearless and Feel No Pain but a Terminator only gets + 1T?

I am considering a CSM army but I can honestly say I likely won't be taking marks other than undivided except for HQ's, cult units, Obliterators, Bikes and Possessed/Warp Talons.

Although a big unit of Nurgle spawn is also tempting....

DA has the option to get Vets... for free.

 rohansoldier wrote:
How about why does taking a mark for a unit or character not give them similar benefits to the cult troop of that god?
LIke for example, how a Plague Marine gets -1 I, + 1 T, Fearless and Feel No Pain but a Terminator only gets + 1T?

I think it's because cult troop =/= troop with mark.

As in, plague marines are chaps that have been specifically picked out by nurgle, and given a bunch of stuff by nurgle, to help nurgle do it's nurgly things better.

Whereas a squad of marines with mark of nurgle is just a bunch of guys who happen to worship nurgle, they may become plague marines at some point, but currently they are fairly low on his radar.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 rohansoldier wrote:
How about why does taking a mark for a unit or character not give them similar benefits to the cult troop of that god?
LIke for example, how a Plague Marine gets -1 I, + 1 T, Fearless and Feel No Pain but a Terminator only gets + 1T?

I think it's because cult troop =/= troop with mark.

As in, plague marines are chaps that have been specifically picked out by nurgle, and given a bunch of stuff by nurgle, to help nurgle do it's nurgly things better.

Whereas a squad of marines with mark of nurgle is just a bunch of guys who happen to worship nurgle, they may become plague marines at some point, but currently they are fairly low on his radar.

I think he would prefer having benefits that were standard amongst that mark being for a dedicated unit of that god more specifically.

Warpsmiths repairing a vehicle on 5+ and then getting +1 for mechandrites while they come with mechandrites standard. Would it have been so hard to say 4+?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mutilators existing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bikes getting VotLW for 1 point while raptors have to pay 2 points.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 rohansoldier wrote:
How about why does taking a mark for a unit or character not give them similar benefits to the cult troop of that god?
LIke for example, how a Plague Marine gets -1 I, + 1 T, Fearless and Feel No Pain but a Terminator only gets + 1T?

I think it's because cult troop =/= troop with mark.

As in, plague marines are chaps that have been specifically picked out by nurgle, and given a bunch of stuff by nurgle, to help nurgle do it's nurgly things better.

Whereas a squad of marines with mark of nurgle is just a bunch of guys who happen to worship nurgle, they may become plague marines at some point, but currently they are fairly low on his radar.

The problem here is that, while this distinction is fine, it functionally exists only amongst "tac" squad equivalents, it is impossible to portray a Death Guard Lord or Berzerker Terminators in the same sense as you can portray their "Tac" equivalents relative to non-legion "marked-but-not-cult" marines.

 Exergy wrote:
Warpsmiths repairing a vehicle on 5+ and then getting +1 for mechandrites while they come with mechandrites standard. Would it have been so hard to say 4+?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mutilators existing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bikes getting VotLW for 1 point while raptors have to pay 2 points.

Totally agree with this... Why not just put “repairs vehicles of a 4+”. Also, the Tendrils add +2 attacks I believe, so why not just add that to the attack characteristic??? Even more so as NOTHING ELSE IN THE ARMY CAN TAKE THEM!!!!
As someone who has been playing for years, it’s not a problem for me TBH (as I know about it), but how many 13 year old kids out there do you think are missing these things?

Possibly the giving Mechatendrils as a standard loadout was a last minute addition and the editors missed that, in which case its bad workmanship, or it leaves room for people to add them to DIY characters, in which case its great news!

 rohansoldier wrote:
Although a big unit of Nurgle spawn is also tempting....

Take 15 of them and watch as your opponents heads explode trying to figure out how to deal with them.

Why are plasma pistols 15 points in a squad when a meltagun is 10 - and better in almost every way?

 Hedgehog wrote:
Why are plasma pistols 15 points in a squad when a meltagun is 10 - and better in almost every way?

Seriously. This.

Like, cool, I can get a plasma pistol. I can assault after shooting with it and everything's gonna be okay. Then, wait, I can get a melta gun for 5 points less? I can assault after shooting it, too? It's not going to maybe blow up in my face? Awesome, I'm taking the melta gun!

But the pistol gives you an additional attack in cc

 AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
But the pistol gives you an additional attack in cc

Almost all squads you can get a melta gun in you can also get a close combat weapon for a point or two. Still less than a plasma gun.

As for things I don't get about the CSM codex?

The Mark of Khorne.

It was a simple mark all it did was give an additional attack and that was fine. But you know Phil Kelly had to feth that up too.
That change single-handedly fethed Khorne over.

I hate getting emotional over a game but this is complete bs. feth you Phil Kelly. Not only did you write a halfhearted attempt but you also rendered two gods nearly unplayable. People like to say that Robin Cruddace wrote a bad Codex and has no concept of balance, but look no further than Chaos, especially the mark system and even a slow would see the inherent imbalance.

Look no further than chaos tactic threads where it devolves into talking about marking everything with the mark of Nurgle.

Special characters (Sans Abaddon) turning themselves into Spawn/Princes.

Hey, cool, 230pt Typhus just went gremlin on me and turned himself into a Spawn

Create Chaos wrote:
Special characters (Sans Abaddon) turning themselves into Spawn/Princes.

Hey, cool, 230pt Typhus just went gremlin on me and turned himself into a Spawn

I like the mutation table, but I concur. Why would Kharn killing this IG sergeant turn him into a Daemon Prince after 10,000 years? Was Khorne waiting for just that one more skull to add to his skull throne before turning his favored champion into a 20 foot tall murder machine?

 Brother SRM wrote:

Create Chaos wrote:
Special characters (Sans Abaddon) turning themselves into Spawn/Princes.

Hey, cool, 230pt Typhus just went gremlin on me and turned himself into a Spawn

I like the mutation table, but I concur. Why would Kharn killing this IG sergeant turn him into a Daemon Prince after 10,000 years? Was Khorne waiting for just that one more skull to add to his skull throne before turning his favored champion into a 20 foot tall murder machine?

And making him weaker in the process because for some reason Gorehowl suddenly stops existing.

A gretchen turned my Raptor Champ into a Daemon Prince...

Yeah. Call me mad but as much as I like this new dex I do miss a few things from the previous one.

Like how Daemon Princes were done. I now -have- to give one a mark. I could rune a Unmarked prince with Warptime and wings for about 150pts. Infiltrating Chosen? Ohhmuhgurd. I still have a unit of guys with the Night Lords bitz. And most of all the old Daemon Weapons. I like how each god got one. Tzeench had a funky wizard gun. Slannesh had the blissgiver and Khorne had this badass 2d6 extra attacks power weapon.

Don't get me wrong though. This current book is amazing. I just look back fondly on a codex most people hated more then Justin Bieber.

 Shadowbrand wrote:
A gretchen turned my Raptor Champ into a Daemon Prince...

How?

Killed 'em rolled the chart. 66 The Ork Slave handler mind you. Not a proper gretchen. But it was still a very moment.

6...6...6 The number of the beast!

 Shadowbrand wrote:
Killed 'em rolled the chart. 66 The Ork Slave handler mind you. Not a proper gretchen. But it was still a very moment.

6...6...6 The number of the beast!

Ah, OK. You had said you killed a Gretchin. Not a Handler. And of course the Gretchin would not give a roll.

Some of the units in the book appear to be schizophrenic. Mutilators and Obliteraters being unable to use the same weapon twice in a row.
Warp Talons being unable to charge from DS (and no grenades!)
DP needing to have a mark, yet you can turn a markless champion into a Undivided one.
Khorne Bezerkers having to buy Chainaxes, which are nearly useless.
Helbrute =/= Dreadnought?
Tzeentch, the master of psychics, almighty knower of knowing, having a terrible psychic table.

Thats about it for now, rant = over.

 Shadowbrand wrote:
A gretchen turned my Raptor Champ into a Daemon Prince...

Yeah. Call me mad but as much as I like this new dex I do miss a few things from the previous one.

Like how Daemon Princes were done. I now -have- to give one a mark. I could rune a Unmarked prince with Warptime and wings for about 150pts. Infiltrating Chosen? Ohhmuhgurd. I still have a unit of guys with the Night Lords bitz. And most of all the old Daemon Weapons. I like how each god got one. Tzeench had a funky wizard gun. Slannesh had the blissgiver and Khorne had this badass 2d6 extra attacks power weapon.

Don't get me wrong though. This current book is amazing. I just look back fondly on a codex most people hated more then Justin Bieber.

I suspect that in the longer term there will be codex supplements to cover the Legions more fully and there you will get some specialist god-specific weaponry.

What I want to know is why, if the warp is the source of all psyker powers, are the chaos psychic disciplines so narrow and uninspiring? I assume it's for game balance???

welshhoppo wrote:
Some of the units in the book appear to be schizophrenic. Mutilators and Obliteraters being unable to use the same weapon twice in a row.
Warp Talons being unable to charge from DS (and no grenades!)
DP needing to have a mark, yet you can turn a markless champion into a Undivided one.
Khorne Bezerkers having to buy Chainaxes, which are nearly useless.
Helbrute =/= Dreadnought?
Tzeentch, the master of psychics, almighty knower of knowing, having a terrible psychic table.

Thats about it for now, rant = over.

Obliterators and mutilators need to rotate. Otherwise, you'd just use the same weapon everytime, like we did in the old codex.
Warp Talons are still a conundrum
This can happen. You don't buy the bonus Daemon Prince.
Chainaxes useless? ok...
Yes, the Helbrute is a dreadnought just with a new name and a lot of options. Still soft, but better than the old one.
Tzeentch is not terrible. Ever hit a Doombolt? scary.

Rant pretty much negated.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

welshhoppo wrote:
Some of the units in the book appear to be schizophrenic. Mutilators and Obliteraters being unable to use the same weapon twice in a row.
Warp Talons being unable to charge from DS (and no grenades!)
DP needing to have a mark, yet you can turn a markless champion into a Undivided one.
Khorne Bezerkers having to buy Chainaxes, which are nearly useless.
Helbrute =/= Dreadnought?
Tzeentch, the master of psychics, almighty knower of knowing, having a terrible psychic table.

Thats about it for now, rant = over.

Obliterators and mutilators need to rotate. Otherwise, you'd just use the same weapon everytime, like we did in the old codex.
Warp Talons are still a conundrum
This can happen. You don't buy the bonus Daemon Prince.
Chainaxes useless? ok...
Yes, the Helbrute is a dreadnought just with a new name and a lot of options. Still soft, but better than the old one.
Tzeentch is not terrible. Ever hit a Doombolt? scary.

Rant pretty much negated.

You're trying to negate an opinion?

Also yes, Chainaxes are useless for their cost and use.

Tzeentch is 3/4th's terrible, one good spell that's not even that great to begin with. Compared to slaanesh, nurgle, or even the book powers...Yeah I mean it's good to look at things in a vacuum and try and make the best of it, but it's just plain awful. If you're using Aspiring Sorcerers you've got a painful chance of losing a 54+ model in an attempt to kill another force.

Yes of course you'd use the same weapon every-time when it came down to it. Why wouldn't you use chainfists on TEQ over and over, over a power axe? Weapons to deal with it most efficiently. If you needed ranged anti-tank, you'd want to use lascannons, oh wait now you need to use plasma cannons because. There's no fluff reasons for it, and it's just plain silly.

Rant Un-negated.

What I want to know is why, if the warp is the source of all psyker powers, are the chaos psychic disciplines so narrow and uninspiring? I assume it's for game balance???

I'm more curious why we are stuck with 3 powers + 1 primaris rather then a full 6 + 1.

This is my first post in the Dakka community. I like the CSM book for what it is: A vast improvement over 4e/5e. I even like the 'dinosaurs', as I love the model. Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) Cults and Daemon Legions: GW has just announced a 'Black Legion' codex supplement for CSMs. Personally, that is what I play, so I'm happy. But, I think it will also mean they will lead into the 4 demon cult armies, Death Guard, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons. Perhaps, if it is not written as badly IMO as the Iyanden book, it will mean new spice for the armies.

2) Night Lords: For those of you with the mini's for this great unit, the only way I have found that you can still use them legit (non-house ruled) is to ally with the 'Chaos Renegades' List from Forge World. You get them in their full glory, but you have to take an HQ from basically Imperial Guard. BUT, that also means that if you want to, you can take any tank and chaos it up to the nines in modeling, and field it. Can we say Nurgle Pus Launcher (Basilisk?). Nice thing about the ally with the Chaos Renegades is that they are listed as Battle Brothers to CSMs, instead of like IG.

3) Chainaxes: I think they are overpriced at 3pts, but I think their value is good against everything but SMs. AP4 kills Eldar, Orks, IG, Dark Eldar, and Tau really nicely. I mean really, it's either AP- with chainswords, or AP4 with chainaxes. That's quite a difference to me. It just does not affect things in games against SMs.

4) Warp Talons: My Taloned Sadists (Warp Talons with Mark of Slaneesh) is a killer unit. Deep strike? Not so much. But charging into the thick of things and getting into CC as soon as possible, that works. For my 10 man unit, that's 30 AP3 attacks with Shred. I don't think Raptors can match that. SMs die like flies without so much as being able to fight back as I go on Int5, and they are on Int4.

5) Helbrutes: I like the fact that the new Crazed table is not a bad thing. All the effects on it are generally good for the CSM player. And they get a lot of options, though it is very hard to come by good modelling options for some of them. The Power Scourge and Thunder Hammer are tough for me, unless you actually have one of the older metal Dreadnoughts.

6) Forgefiends: It is basically a dreadnought with far more weaponry. either 3 essentially plasma cannons, or 1 cannon and 4 suped-up autocannons. With the extra bits like Daemonforge and It-will-not-die! it is just a fun unit to field. People ask why not give it more vehicle upgrades, but I have to ask why? It already has enough weapons, it won't benefit from more armor due to Daemonic Possession, and Gargoyles only give it Soul Blaze, which is useless against the targets you usually use it's heavy firepower on. Dirge caster might be nice, especially on a Maulerfiend, but against units that it might charge, it will save you from what, A heavy weapon snap shot in a tac squad? Maybe a few more in a heavy weapon squad. I just see it as definately less useful than on a Land Raider, expelling 10 Berzerkers on a squad that would normally get 20 snap shots at them, but get none. Oh the looks of horror the opponents give.

Just my thoughts on the matter. May the Chaos Gods smile upon you.

 chaosvoices wrote:
This is my first post in the Dakka community.

Well, in that case...Welcome to the community.

 chaosvoices wrote:

6) Forgefiends: It is basically a dreadnought with far more weaponry. either 3 essentially plasma cannons, or 1 cannon and 4 suped-up autocannons. With the extra bits like Daemonforge and It-will-not-die! it is just a fun unit to field. People ask why not give it more vehicle upgrades, but I have to ask why? It already has enough weapons, it won't benefit from more armor due to Daemonic Possession, and Gargoyles only give it Soul Blaze, which is useless against the targets you usually use it's heavy firepower on. Dirge caster might be nice, especially on a Maulerfiend, but against units that it might charge, it will save you from what, A heavy weapon snap shot in a tac squad? Maybe a few more in a heavy weapon squad. I just see it as definately less useful than on a Land Raider, expelling 10 Berzerkers on a squad that would normally get 20 snap shots at them, but get none. Oh the looks of horror the opponents give.

I fully agree that it's fun to field, but think of it more as adding a bit of seasoning. I gave up playing competitively years ago, to be honest, and sometimes you just want to field things for the giggles, like a defiler with a pair of havoc launchers and an extra dccw (legal loadout, unless errata'd away), or, as mentioned in my opening post, a warpsmith or apostle on a daemonic steed (which, while not entirely badass, comes pretty close to that level, and opens up a few more options for these otherwise near-useless units...). It's not about competitiveness, it's about flavor.

there's a lot of head scratching about this codex. I used to play a khorne army almost exclusively but now I find them sad and pathetic and that's not how Khorne's supposed to be. Until they fix this I'll stick with my other two armies. Mutilators...really? "Oh, they're a great counter charge unit!" That's a polite way of saying, "they kinda suck at what they're supposed to do." There are too many units that are almost unplayable and a few that you almost have to take in order not to get tabled. There was a lack of imagination and logic to this codex that makes me not want to play it.