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It seems to me like the problem we're facing here is that people are worried a points cost reduction to standard Terminators would make the Thunderhammer/Storm Shield build too inexpensive; wouldn't just making that a more expensive upgrade solve the problem? 35pt Terminators, swap weapons for Thunderhammer/Storm Shield for +10pts/model?

Just don't adjust the cost of th/ss termies

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It seems to me like the problem we're facing here is that people are worried a points cost reduction to standard Terminators would make the Thunderhammer/Storm Shield build too inexpensive; wouldn't just making that a more expensive upgrade solve the problem? 35pt Terminators, swap weapons for Thunderhammer/Storm Shield for +10pts/model?

That sounds about right to me. All Terminators(including CSM and GK) -5 points except those with TH/SS which stay the same.


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 Formosa wrote:
Just don't adjust the cost of th/ss termies

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 Dinamarth wrote:
I'm not sure what possessed them to raise the price of TH/SS termies in the new dex. I realize they were following suit with the Blood Angels Codex but I always thought their price was raised in that codex due to the slim chance of getting furious charge from red thirst or attaching a Sanguinary Priest to the squad. In the vanilla codex it just seems ridiculous, the only logic I can think of is to make people buy the Vanguard & Sternguard kits.

because TH/SS were too good in 5th. TH/SS terminators are still good, the problem is that tactical terminators were bad and are still bad.

They were bad and got worse in 6th because.of 2 books and now grav guns

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Uh, because TH/SS terminators negate all the standard weaknesses of Terminators (like Exorcists, Meltaguns, grav guns, etc) and thus become nigh unkillable?

Oh, you mean the amount of wounds small arm fire causes, which force so many saves, you star rolling ones? a 50 man IG blob can, kill about 3-5 terminators.

 raiden wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Uh, because TH/SS terminators negate all the standard weaknesses of Terminators (like Exorcists, Meltaguns, grav guns, etc) and thus become nigh unkillable?

Oh, you mean the amount of wounds small arm fire causes, which force so many saves, you star rolling ones? a 50 man IG blob can, kill about 3-5 terminators.

2 termies on average in my experience, goes up with specials a.d heavies though

 Zagman wrote:
Yes, Terminators in general need a points reduction. They have awful resiliency and often a much lower damage output than tacticals and cannot sweep. Their only advantage is costly melee weapons. A 2+AS isn't great for a 40pt single wound model. It take 18 BS4 Bolter Shots to kill a Terminator, It takes 26 BS4 Boltershot to kill an equal points cost in tactical marines. It takes 2.7 BS4 Lascannons to kill a Tactical Terminator, 5.4 to kill a THSS and only 5.1 to kill an equal point cost in Tactials, 7.7 if they have cover. Terminators also put out a lower volume of fire than Tacticals, and don't have access to many special weapons. The only place Terminators surpass Tacticals is in assault, but they rarely ever can make it there.



I've posted this multiple places, Terminators should be priced as follows to bring their survivability closer to tacticals while helping to offset their relatively low firepower...

Terminator with Power Sword and Stormbolter... 30pts
Terminator with Power Fist and Stormbolter or Lightning Claws... 35pts
Terminator with Thunderhammer and Stormshield... 40pts

Other Terminators should be priced off of this base point, including Chaos Terminators, GKs, etc.

I still feel this is the effective point cost point for Terminators. I quoted my earlier post because it was easier than saying it again.

I still advocate leaving the points alone, give them T5. let them take TH/SS for free to replace LCs and, on tactical terminators give us 2 heavy weapons per 5 men.

Buttons wrote:

Two things.
1. Codexes are not inherently balanced with each other, guardsmen cost 5 points each, cultists with autoguns cost 5 points each despite only being able to take 1 special weapon per 10 guys, while guardsmen can take a heavy and special weapon per squad, plus free frag grenades and better armour. Deathwing terminators with a TH/SS cost 49 points despite the only advantage they have over their C:SM counterparts being Deathwing assault and inner circle special rules, which don't warrant that much added cost.
2. CSM have access to marks and icons, they cost about the same, lose some special rules, but gain some nice options. Also, although I don't have enough experience facing them to make this argument, I am sure many people will say they are overpriced.

@1. But they could and should be. The examples you bring do make a difference; the thing is we're playing whole armies and on top of that, there's the element of chance and so it will be difficult to compare these units in a battle. If GW had structured the prices of units so only the units cost points, but their options didn't, then you would be right, that two seemingly identical units would have different prices because they had different options. But this is not the case, GW actually has made it easy for themselves: everything can be priced - every option you can think of. Why move the value of an option from the option to somewhere else!? Why not pay for the option when you actually utilise the option? They don't have to make it more difficult than it really is, when they gave themselves the opportunity to price the exact thing.
Another reason to price like you think they do, is that if the opponent doesn't know what wargear or weapon your units have - that way you could bluff or make strategies the more differentiated options the unit have, but again this isn't the case; we know as much as much about the units our opponents have, than they do themselves - there's no need to price two identical units different when they're in different codices.

 raiden wrote:
I still advocate leaving the points alone, give them T5. let them take TH/SS for free to replace LCs and, on tactical terminators give us 2 heavy weapons per 5 men.

I would totally sign onto this.

Ahahahahaha...

i'm i really seeing this?

I've never would have though i would live long enough to see this..., someone complaining about Loyalist Termies, aka Best termies in the game...

oh god my sides hurts....

You want real bothersome and laughable termies, try playing a Chaos termi squad...

 Haight wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I still advocate leaving the points alone, give them T5. let them take TH/SS for free to replace LCs and, on tactical terminators give us 2 heavy weapons per 5 men.

I would totally sign onto this.

T6 nurgle termies? Well why not.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I still advocate leaving the points alone, give them T5. let them take TH/SS for free to replace LCs and, on tactical terminators give us 2 heavy weapons per 5 men.

I would totally sign onto this.

T6 nurgle termies? Well why not.

you get T6 bikes as is. so why the hell not indeed!


oh wait.. your Chaos so not all of your systems are working.. no t5 for you heheheehe.

 Formosa wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Uh, because TH/SS terminators negate all the standard weaknesses of Terminators (like Exorcists, Meltaguns, grav guns, etc) and thus become nigh unkillable?

Oh, you mean the amount of wounds small arm fire causes, which force so many saves, you star rolling ones? a 50 man IG blob can, kill about 3-5 terminators.

2 termies on average in my experience, goes up with specials a.d heavies though

My math says 1.4 Terminators outside of rapid-fire range and 2.8 within, just from lasguns. Throw in five plasma guns in rapid-fire range and that's up by 1.3 Terminators on a TH/SS squad and 2.8 on a regular squad.

1.3+2.8=4.1, aka 4 out of 5 members of the terminator with TH/SS squad.

Niexist wrote:
1.3+2.8=4.1, aka 4 out of 5 members of the terminator with TH/SS squad.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why you don't get up in the face of a 300+-pt mob of Guardsmen with your two hundred points of Terminators unless you have an Land Raider, a Stormraven, or something more obscure with an Assault Ramp to get them into combat. Not to mention the issue of why the hell are you trying to kill fifty Guardsmen with TH/SS Terminators? This is Warhammer, there's no swiss army unit that's a solution to all your problems, this particular problem is best solved by putting a Sternguard squad with every sort of template weapon into a Drop Pod and setting the mob on fire.

What if termies are allowed to perform an counter overwatch while charging, still have to roll sixes to hit and its a double edged sword as you might fail the charge if you manage to inflict enough wounds?

Terminator problems lie in a low damage per point and a low resiliency per point. The simplest solution is to just lower their cost to an appropriate level. Just adding offense isn't enough, to balance out their current point cost they would need something along the lines of T5 and double special weapons per five Termies.

 Zagman wrote:
Terminator problems lie in a low damage per point and a low resiliency per point. The simplest solution is to just lower their cost to an appropriate level. Just adding offense isn't enough, to balance out their current point cost they would need something along the lines of T5 and double special weapons per five Termies.

been saying this over and over again

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Ahahahahaha...

i'm i really seeing this?

I've never would have though i would live long enough to see this..., someone complaining about Loyalist Termies, aka Best termies in the game...

oh god my sides hurts....

You want real bothersome and laughable termies, try playing a Chaos termi squad...

The Chaos Terminators that can take Marks and get combi-weapons on every model? The Chaos Terminators that can mix and match their melee weapons to fit their intended task?

For someone so condescending you sure don't know what you're talking about.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Ahahahahaha...

i'm i really seeing this?

I've never would have though i would live long enough to see this..., someone complaining about Loyalist Termies, aka Best termies in the game...

oh god my sides hurts....

You want real bothersome and laughable termies, try playing a Chaos termi squad...

The Chaos Terminators that can take Marks and get combi-weapons on every model? The Chaos Terminators that can mix and match their melee weapons to fit their intended task?

For someone so condescending you sure don't know what you're talking about.

You mean the Chaos Terminators that really are only used as Suicide Comb-Melta/Plasma? Which is done far better in C:SM because of drop pods, sternguard, and other better deepstriking units?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Ahahahahaha...

i'm i really seeing this?

I've never would have though i would live long enough to see this..., someone complaining about Loyalist Termies, aka Best termies in the game...

oh god my sides hurts....

You want real bothersome and laughable termies, try playing a Chaos termi squad...

The Chaos Terminators that can take Marks and get combi-weapons on every model? The Chaos Terminators that can mix and match their melee weapons to fit their intended task?

For someone so condescending you sure don't know what you're talking about.

You mean the Chaos Terminators that really are only used as Suicide Comb-Melta/Plasma? Which is done far better in C:SM because of drop pods, sternguard, and other better deepstriking units?

you mean the chaos terminators that can be T5, with all combi-plasma/melta, with powerfists? (which, for a squad of 5 of these is only 45 points more than a non upgraded C:SM terminator squad). yeah man, thats really bad.

 raiden wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Ahahahahaha...

i'm i really seeing this?

I've never would have though i would live long enough to see this..., someone complaining about Loyalist Termies, aka Best termies in the game...

oh god my sides hurts....

You want real bothersome and laughable termies, try playing a Chaos termi squad...

The Chaos Terminators that can take Marks and get combi-weapons on every model? The Chaos Terminators that can mix and match their melee weapons to fit their intended task?

For someone so condescending you sure don't know what you're talking about.

You mean the Chaos Terminators that really are only used as Suicide Comb-Melta/Plasma? Which is done far better in C:SM because of drop pods, sternguard, and other better deepstriking units?

you mean the chaos terminators that can be T5, with all combi-plasma/melta, with powerfists? (which, for a squad of 5 of these is only 45 points more than a non upgraded C:SM terminator squad). yeah man, thats really bad.

When I can get my land raider close to Eldar or Tau Lines I'll mention how effective they are.

My meta does poorly for melee since it's mostly Eldar/Tau.

To fix terminators, give them +1 Toughness and then +1 attack. Leave points alone, and you're good.