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Its funny, 20 people at my game store have marine armies and I haven't seen a single speeder on the table since 4th ed, scout transport or no. How do they stack up to their points cost. I was looking at the storm talon, and for the same points you could field at least 2 speeders. What makes them so risky to field?

Orock wrote:
What makes them so risky to field?

AV 10 in a meta filled with Tau Broadsides and Eldar Wave Serpents.

I'm going to to say they are not useless -- that will really be determined in the C:SM codex when its released. But for today's purposes they are extremely fragile.

DS double heavy flamer ones. cheap and awesome troop killers. typhoons are also annoying for you enemies. 5+ jink save and effective against a wide variety of targets. I love it when serpents shoot their shield at them because then I can penetrate with massed meltas. speeders are good mate.

While I love my speeders, I think 6th boosted bikes a lot more then them. They still do the job they alway have, either suicide HF/MM, or long range harassment with HB/TMLs. They are less fragile then they used to be, thanks to the jink save, and can fire better on the move (2 guns at speed). But once someone decides to turn as much as a stern gaze towards them, it's time to creator into the turf and die. If you run a mech heavy list, they are generally low on the target priority list, but gauging from discussion here on Dakka, mech is not as prevalent out there these days. And a lone speeder is a dead speeder.

Typhoon speeders are still good. They gained a 5+ cover just for moving and they have the range to stay out of most trouble.

I run two typhoons in my RW list. They make there points back every game and some. They are never left alive after turn 3 though.

 jamin484 wrote:
DS double heavy flamer ones. cheap and awesome troop killers.

They aren't as great as you'd think, as to really make the most of their weapons they need to Deep Strike dangerously close to the enemy and hope they don't scatter by much. Much easier to just use single HF Storms outflanking.

As for Speeders in general, it all depends. Dedicated Storms in the new Codex will be great I reckon. I think a Darkshroud will make a good allied unit for White Scars also, bringing their jink up to 3+.

I run two Typhoon/Melta speeders and two double heavy bolter speeders. They're good value for points if you can keep them out of trouble.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:
DS double heavy flamer ones. cheap and awesome troop killers.

They aren't as great as you'd think, as to really make the most of their weapons they need to Deep Strike dangerously close to the enemy and hope they don't scatter by much. Much easier to just use single HF Storms outflanking.

As for Speeders in general, it all depends. Dedicated Storms in the new Codex will be great I reckon. I think a Darkshroud will make a good allied unit for White Scars also, bringing their jink up to 3+.

I know they are great because I've used them a lot. I don't care if they mishap, they are cheap. They work often enough to be efficient at making their points back and clearing objective holders which wins games.

As for new white scars, add in a character with skilled rider (Sammy) and a shroud and you've got 2+ cover without turbo boosting.

Nothing in the marine codex is cheap enough to throw away to mishaps. Marines have enough problems without giving away fast attack kills. I'd use the typhoon speeders myself if I weren't using FNP attack bikes.

 jamin484 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:
DS double heavy flamer ones. cheap and awesome troop killers.

They aren't as great as you'd think, as to really make the most of their weapons they need to Deep Strike dangerously close to the enemy and hope they don't scatter by much. Much easier to just use single HF Storms outflanking.

As for Speeders in general, it all depends. Dedicated Storms in the new Codex will be great I reckon. I think a Darkshroud will make a good allied unit for White Scars also, bringing their jink up to 3+.

I know they are great because I've used them a lot. I don't care if they mishap, they are cheap. They work often enough to be efficient at making their points back and clearing objective holders which wins games.

As for new white scars, add in a character with skilled rider (Sammy) and a shroud and you've got 2+ cover without turbo boosting.

Why would you waste time adding Sammy when all White Scars Bikes already auto-pass dangerous terrain checks?

BTW, just saying you know they are good because you have used them isn't really a valid argument. A fact is the build is higher risk than reward, doing well with them consistently however is not a definite thing.

EDIT: Ignore this, I just read Skilled Rider out of curiosity; I didn't know it now added +1 to cover saves. While handy though, I'd rather an allied Libby.

That's an interesting point. If the white scars jink only applies to bikes, then perhaps the attack bikes would be a better investment than the speeders.

 labmouse42 wrote:
That's an interesting point. If the white scars jink only applies to bikes, then perhaps the attack bikes would be a better investment than the speeders.

Attack Bikes can only go Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta, so they don't have the wealth of options that Speeders do. Then again as I said above, I wouldn't take normal Speeders anyway. Dedicated Storm or Darkshroud is fine as they have a specific role to fill that is unrivaled, however with normal Speeders I have either Bikes already doing Melta stuff, or Whirlwinds doing the anti-horde stuff.

But the multi melta is a great weapon, especially on a bike.

Always fun to use but I never see one of mine survived a lot of simple shooting like boltgun.

Any time I field my bikes I field land speeders they do a lot of damage. They dont normally last a full game but they do what they are supposed to and thats either draw fire or sneak up amd destroy.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:
DS double heavy flamer ones. cheap and awesome troop killers.

They aren't as great as you'd think, as to really make the most of their weapons they need to Deep Strike dangerously close to the enemy and hope they don't scatter by much. Much easier to just use single HF Storms outflanking.

As for Speeders in general, it all depends. Dedicated Storms in the new Codex will be great I reckon. I think a Darkshroud will make a good allied unit for White Scars also, bringing their jink up to 3+.

I know they are great because I've used them a lot. I don't care if they mishap, they are cheap. They work often enough to be efficient at making their points back and clearing objective holders which wins games.

As for new white scars, add in a character with skilled rider (Sammy) and a shroud and you've got 2+ cover without turbo boosting.

Why would you waste time adding Sammy when all White Scars Bikes already auto-pass dangerous terrain checks?

BTW, just saying you know they are good because you have used them isn't really a valid argument. A fact is the build is higher risk than reward, doing well with them consistently however is not a definite thing.

EDIT: Ignore this, I just read Skilled Rider out of curiosity; I didn't know it now added +1 to cover saves. While handy though, I'd rather an allied Libby.

Skilled rider doesn't add +1 to cover saves it is +1 to jink saves. That's an important distinction.

The chances of the speeder dying from mishap is very low. Usually they are going after objective holders which tend to be isolated. Even if you do scatter onto the enemy unit which is unlikely there is only a 1 in 6 chance that you are destroyed and a massive 50/50 chance you go back into reserves to try again next turn. Those are good odds given the damage two heavy flamers can do. Read hedgehogs battle reports as a good example of how effective they are. I would argue that they are higher reward than risk. Have you used them? If not, maybe you should give them a go?

I used speeders extensively back in 3rd ed. and still use em today, though boy did they stink in 4rth.

I take them against crons since their speed and weapon options are pretty effective againgst them, and gauss weaponry doesnt gain anything againgst them.

I use them againgst nids cause double flamers and heavy bolters are cheap anti infantry. And a squad of 3 typhoons can take out a hive tyrant with one volley if you drop it outta the air first with bolter fire.

I also like deep striking them against eldar or dark eldar, since even the cheap double heavy bolter versions can pop their vehicles from the rear.

But they are hit or miss...... a bad game will have you cursing them and wishing you had taken 4 or 5 more termies.

It's just super easy to scatter out of flamer range. I really like attack bikes better, especially for BA.

 jamin484 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:
DS double heavy flamer ones. cheap and awesome troop killers.

They aren't as great as you'd think, as to really make the most of their weapons they need to Deep Strike dangerously close to the enemy and hope they don't scatter by much. Much easier to just use single HF Storms outflanking.

As for Speeders in general, it all depends. Dedicated Storms in the new Codex will be great I reckon. I think a Darkshroud will make a good allied unit for White Scars also, bringing their jink up to 3+.

I know they are great because I've used them a lot. I don't care if they mishap, they are cheap. They work often enough to be efficient at making their points back and clearing objective holders which wins games.

As for new white scars, add in a character with skilled rider (Sammy) and a shroud and you've got 2+ cover without turbo boosting.

Why would you waste time adding Sammy when all White Scars Bikes already auto-pass dangerous terrain checks?

BTW, just saying you know they are good because you have used them isn't really a valid argument. A fact is the build is higher risk than reward, doing well with them consistently however is not a definite thing.

EDIT: Ignore this, I just read Skilled Rider out of curiosity; I didn't know it now added +1 to cover saves. While handy though, I'd rather an allied Libby.

Skilled rider doesn't add +1 to cover saves it is +1 to jink saves. That's an important distinction.

The chances of the speeder dying from mishap is very low. Usually they are going after objective holders which tend to be isolated. Even if you do scatter onto the enemy unit which is unlikely there is only a 1 in 6 chance that you are destroyed and a massive 50/50 chance you go back into reserves to try again next turn. Those are good odds given the damage two heavy flamers can do. Read hedgehogs battle reports as a good example of how effective they are. I would argue that they are higher reward than risk. Have you used them? If not, maybe you should give them a go?

Dying from mishap isn't the issue. In 40k no matter how cheap something is, if it doesn't do its job in a reliant manner where something else could then it isn't a good choice.

Isolated units also doesn't matter. To get coverage with a template you want to be within 5-6" of the target. If you scatter you are scattering an average of 7", and you are more likely to roll scatter than a hit. What this results in is a high probability that you either (a) scatter onto the target and mishap, or (b) scatter out of flamer range (you only need to scatter 3"+ for this) and thus are redundant and will get gunned down next turn. That's 60pts better spent elsewhere, like in a Whirlwind for a mere 5pts more.

For the record also, decent players rarely leave their objective holders isolated, as that is a fantastic way of losing.

And yes I have used them, but that is irrelevant. Using something to good effect doesn't automatically make it a decent, competitive choice. There are many other factors to take into account than just anecdotal evidence, which is why it is usually discounted in arguments.

Landspeeders are frustratingly fragile for the points. That's why the version with 48" weapons is my preferred choice. They may be able to dance out of range.

My assualt cannon and heavy bolter speeders, all 6 of them, see play a lot. So many monsterous creatures mean they have a good time and win some games for me.

It will be interesting to see whether the White Scars chapter tactic is actually just Skilled Rider or if it replicates the same effect without being called Skilled Rider. In the latter case, adding a Skilled Rider ally would indeed let us double up on the jink bonus.

I don't like the range on the assault cannon. Actually, I don't much like the assault cannon period. Basically, its an overpriced scatter laser in most cases and they are inappropriately priced I think.

Scatter Lasers don't have Rending. Rending is HUGE.

Its not great on such a fragile platform when its range dictates it be relatively close to the action. Close enough for Bolters and Pulse weapons to shoot at it.

Rending is not worth the range hit and price increases. Something like Gauss or Eldar shuriken is nice because entire squads can have it. Rending on a heavy weapon as its primary feature sucks.

I'll take scatter lasers over assault cannons all day long and use other weapons to pen armor or 2+ armor. Or I'll just kill 2+ with weight wounds.

Not on a speeder, but on other platforms its great.

I don't think so. It's expensive and it doesn't come in the numbers of the scatterlaser. I have been doing better since I abolished the ML and assault cannon from my lists. Rending on that few shots is simply too inconsistent, and certainly not worth what GW charges for the thing. The 24" range is super bad for a heavy weapon.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:
DS double heavy flamer ones. cheap and awesome troop killers.

They aren't as great as you'd think, as to really make the most of their weapons they need to Deep Strike dangerously close to the enemy and hope they don't scatter by much. Much easier to just use single HF Storms outflanking.

As for Speeders in general, it all depends. Dedicated Storms in the new Codex will be great I reckon. I think a Darkshroud will make a good allied unit for White Scars also, bringing their jink up to 3+.

I know they are great because I've used them a lot. I don't care if they mishap, they are cheap. They work often enough to be efficient at making their points back and clearing objective holders which wins games.

As for new white scars, add in a character with skilled rider (Sammy) and a shroud and you've got 2+ cover without turbo boosting.

Why would you waste time adding Sammy when all White Scars Bikes already auto-pass dangerous terrain checks?

BTW, just saying you know they are good because you have used them isn't really a valid argument. A fact is the build is higher risk than reward, doing well with them consistently however is not a definite thing.

EDIT: Ignore this, I just read Skilled Rider out of curiosity; I didn't know it now added +1 to cover saves. While handy though, I'd rather an allied Libby.

Skilled rider doesn't add +1 to cover saves it is +1 to jink saves. That's an important distinction.

The chances of the speeder dying from mishap is very low. Usually they are going after objective holders which tend to be isolated. Even if you do scatter onto the enemy unit which is unlikely there is only a 1 in 6 chance that you are destroyed and a massive 50/50 chance you go back into reserves to try again next turn. Those are good odds given the damage two heavy flamers can do. Read hedgehogs battle reports as a good example of how effective they are. I would argue that they are higher reward than risk. Have you used them? If not, maybe you should give them a go?

Dying from mishap isn't the issue. In 40k no matter how cheap something is, if it doesn't do its job in a reliant manner where something else could then it isn't a good choice.

Isolated units also doesn't matter. To get coverage with a template you want to be within 5-6" of the target. If you scatter you are scattering an average of 7", and you are more likely to roll scatter than a hit. What this results in is a high probability that you either (a) scatter onto the target and mishap, or (b) scatter out of flamer range (you only need to scatter 3"+ for this) and thus are redundant and will get gunned down next turn. That's 60pts better spent elsewhere, like in a Whirlwind for a mere 5pts more.

For the record also, decent players rarely leave their objective holders isolated, as that is a fantastic way of losing.

And yes I have used them, but that is irrelevant. Using something to good effect doesn't automatically make it a decent, competitive choice. There are many other factors to take into account than just anecdotal evidence, which is why it is usually discounted in arguments.

If it scatters 7" directly away from the enemy unit then yes it will not be effective for that turn. This is statistically unlikely however, and there is a good chance that it will still be in range. Math hammer doesn't really work for this as there are too many variables that are not determined by the dice. The size and deployment of the squad you are targeting the base size other viable target squads nearby etc etc. Sometimes the speeder will bounce over the unit it is targeting and shoot them from the other side. Sometimes it will bounce to the side at an oblique angle and still have good range. Sometimes it will bounce away from the target unit and be in range of another unit entirely. Statistically speaking it is hard to measure the effectiveness of DS speeders, that's why actual experience of using the unit is important. In close fought games objective holding troops are often isolated as each side will only have a few units left. Also I tend to place objectives themselves so that units that claim them will be isolated.

The game is not played in a vacuum and your tone is a wee bit patronizing. Regardless I don't think we're going to convince each other of anything. all the best mate.

The problem is that the speeders are likely to come in before the opponent has moved units into isolated positions. People have done this a couple times to me. I wasn't impressed. Of course, I'm not sure what meq lists can do to impress me at this point.