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djones520 wrote:I haven't been to a "good" McDonalds since I left Japan. There are very few fast food joints I enter where I feel like i'm a valued customer.

Can I take that as a tacit agreement that you support the wage increase, then? If the workers were paid more, they might not greet each customer with hatred and disdain. That is how the market works, right: you get what you pay for?

 pities2004 wrote:
It's really a joke, they want to get paid more without having to work for it. I joined the military, went to school got a career and I make 20ish an hour, if a lowly McDonalds worker can make 15 dollars an hour with no education or life skills then I will be truly disappointed.

I find your silly statements about bootstrapping offensive to every part of the brain that functions beyond the concrete operational stage, and thus shall retort with some cheap Calvinism of my own:

HAHAHAHAHA you spent all that time in the military and in school and the best you can do now is $20 per hour? Maybe if you worked harder, you'd have a real career, because $20 per hour is still just a job.

Or, y'know, you could attempt to consider that not everyone may have had the same circumstances as you. Either way.

djones520 wrote:I call BS that you guys would pay $3.50 for a regular BK Cheeseburger, and $8 for a Whopper, before you add the fries and drink.

I wouldn't pay $0.99 for a single thing BK offers. But for what it's worth, this is actually less than the cost of the BK menu that you'll find inside major theatre chains, and people pay that all the time.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Also, for the record, a $15 an hour wage is more than local EMT workers, substitute teachers and correctional officers make in St. Louis, MO.

So, say burger flippers get $15 increase (or any significant increase)... about about them?

In the UK substitute teachers are often paid more on the hour than regular teachers, because they're in demand and it makes up for the sporadic working hours. But everything I've heard about the teaching profession in the US generally is that they are treated like rubbish on poor wages. It simply not a valued profession.

Substitutes are basically glorified babysitters here in the states, which sucks because most of those people have teaching degrees and can teach the content. When I was doing my student teaching we had a sub a few days, and the instructions were basically, "Alf knows what to do, he can run the class, if he has any problems, please do x, y, or z" and that was basically it.

It really depends on the school and the district. I used to sub in three districts, and the differences are stark.

In the upper-middle class district, the children were self-starting and motivated. They brought free reading books to read after they finished their work. The only teaching I got to do involved students wanting to get ahead of the class, asking questions and learning as much as possible. I was basically a baby sitter.

In the lower-middle/lower class school district, I was highly sought after as one of the only subs able to teach Calculus. (My student teaching was in Geometry, Calculus AB and Calculus BC). I did a lot of teaching, in math. I also subbed for a lot of other subjects and taught what I could in them. However, teachers who did not specifically request me as a sub would usually leave worksheets, videos or tests, since they had no idea what capabilities their subs would have. Also, some of the schools were good for subs, with a system that backed us up and rewarded good behavior, but other schools were terrible, out of control messes. Generally, outside of math, most of my classes were spend managing student behavior rather than teaching, which can be very frustrating.

In the other lower class district, I was pretty much a prison warden. I'm never going back.

My biggest fear as a teacher is going to a lower class district.
Im like, Why?

 Ouze wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I would replace them with machines and one to two guys in back to repair the machines and load fresh burger patties. We have the tech for this. It was called an automat or something like that back in the day.

Labor is one of the largest expenses in any possible endeavour I can do better by my stockholders and my staff teams by reducing it significantly.

Have you used the self-checkouts at the supermarket? I have tried them and I've found they absolutely do not perform a better job than a human as a whole - someone always screwed it up and needs a clerk to come fix whatever they did; and that's a fairly close parallel, I think. I agree this is eventually where we'll be but I don't think we're there yet.

I only use the self-checkouts personally, and I've never had a problem.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But no one's going to stop buying the food, really.

This, and Sweden's model proves this.

-- Haight


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:
I call BS that you guys would pay $3.50 for a regular BK Cheeseburger, and $8 for a Whopper, before you add the fries and drink.

You can call bs all you want, some people's convictions are stronger than their greed.


Not a shot at you ; but my altruism and belief that, maybe, someday, a better society can be made outweigh my personal greed and desire to accumulate massive wealth i can't spend, and property i can do nothing with other than bequeath or rent.

You can't believe in that dream - as idealistic and impossible as it may seem - but really have an ulterior goal to subvert it in your own interest. Doesn't work that way.

I am okay with less for myself, if it means more for all. I am not okay with an elite concentration of wealth, a modern day serf state. Particularly when that wealth has been concentrated through the duality of exploitation and governmental acquiescence.

It is ridiculous that in this day and age of technology and enlightment, in one of the most industrialized and developed nations in the world that if you lose your job, you lose your right to basic healthcare that does not come with the real and pervasive threat of bankruptcy.

So good on the organizers and the very brave people that are willing to stand up and organize. That takes a ton of nerve and bravery.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
My biggest fear as a teacher is going to a lower class district.
Im like, Why?

Well... check out the payscale of St. Louis City School District. They have the highest pay scale than the surrounding counties.

Same goes for in places in Vegas...

The thing is, there are school district that are often poor performers, thus the teacher have to deal with more BS from the administrators.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I would replace them with machines and one to two guys in back to repair the machines and load fresh burger patties. We have the tech for this. It was called an automat or something like that back in the day.

Labor is one of the largest expenses in any possible endeavour I can do better by my stockholders and my staff teams by reducing it significantly.

Have you used the self-checkouts at the supermarket? I have tried them and I've found they absolutely do not perform a better job than a human as a whole - someone always screwed it up and needs a clerk to come fix whatever they did; and that's a fairly close parallel, I think. I agree this is eventually where we'll be but I don't think we're there yet.

I only use the self-checkouts personally, and I've never had a problem.

Same here, I've never had to call the human over other then to verify my age on things like spray paint, glue, and Ducktales...

 Haight wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But no one's going to stop buying the food, really.

This, and Sweden's model proves this.

-- Haight


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:
I call BS that you guys would pay $3.50 for a regular BK Cheeseburger, and $8 for a Whopper, before you add the fries and drink.

You can call bs all you want, some people's convictions are stronger than their greed.


Not a shot at you ; but my altruism and belief that, maybe, someday, a better society can be made outweigh my personal greed and desire to accumulate massive wealth i can't spend, and property i can do nothing with other than bequeath or rent.

You can't believe in that dream - as idealistic and impossible as it may seem - but really have an ulterior goal to subvert it in your own interest. Doesn't work that way.

I am okay with less for myself, if it means more for all. I am not okay with an elite concentration of wealth, a modern day serf state. Particularly when that wealth has been concentrated through the duality of exploitation and governmental acquiescence.

It is ridiculous that in this day and age of technology and enlightment, in one of the most industrialized and developed nations in the world that if you lose your job, you lose your right to basic healthcare that does not come with the real and pervasive threat of bankruptcy.

So good on the organizers and the very brave people that are willing to stand up and organize. That takes a ton of nerve and bravery.

Wow. You must just be an awesome person. You can go on paying for other people. Many of us don't want to.

And brave my ass. They're greedy and entitled.

I wouldn't call wanting basic things like universal healthcare and being able to afford shelter, post-secondary education and food greedy but whatever.

 Cheesecat wrote:
I wouldn't call wanting basic things like universal healthcare and being able to afford shelter, post-secondary education and food greedy but whatever.

Post secondary education? You're talking about universities, I assume? If so, that is quite definitely not "basic" in any way. Education in the UK (because I don't know gak about the US system) continues until you're 18, by which point you should have learnt quite a lot of stuff. In actual fact, you should know enough stuff that you can go and get a job.

If you want to learn more and get a job requiring certain skills, good for you. You can pay for that. But don't act as though a university degree is always necessary, or "basic".

... However, I do agree with you about healthcare, shelter and food. Those are human rights; they're slightly different.

cincydooley wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But no one's going to stop buying the food, really.

This, and Sweden's model proves this.

-- Haight


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:
I call BS that you guys would pay $3.50 for a regular BK Cheeseburger, and $8 for a Whopper, before you add the fries and drink.

You can call bs all you want, some people's convictions are stronger than their greed.


Not a shot at you ; but my altruism and belief that, maybe, someday, a better society can be made outweigh my personal greed and desire to accumulate massive wealth i can't spend, and property i can do nothing with other than bequeath or rent.

You can't believe in that dream - as idealistic and impossible as it may seem - but really have an ulterior goal to subvert it in your own interest. Doesn't work that way.

I am okay with less for myself, if it means more for all. I am not okay with an elite concentration of wealth, a modern day serf state. Particularly when that wealth has been concentrated through the duality of exploitation and governmental acquiescence.

It is ridiculous that in this day and age of technology and enlightment, in one of the most industrialized and developed nations in the world that if you lose your job, you lose your right to basic healthcare that does not come with the real and pervasive threat of bankruptcy.

So good on the organizers and the very brave people that are willing to stand up and organize. That takes a ton of nerve and bravery.

Wow. You must just be an awesome person. You can go on paying for other people. Many of us don't want to.

And brave my ass. They're greedy and entitled.

Would you care to clarify why you think so?

I think he does sound like a pretty awesome person. Particularly by contrast to someone who appears to be a cheap bargain-bin Calvinist. But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and hope that you can rationally explain your judgemental position.

 djones520 wrote:
I call BS that you guys would pay $3.50 for a regular BK Cheeseburger, and $8 for a Whopper, before you add the fries and drink.

Burger King still exists?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

Have you used the self-checkouts at the supermarket? I have tried them and I've found they absolutely do not perform a better job than a human as a whole - someone always screwed it up and needs a clerk to come fix whatever they did; and that's a fairly close parallel, I think. I agree this is eventually where we'll be but I don't think we're there yet.

Self-checkouts work well when they're monitored correctly. Unfortunately many businesses treat them as though they represent the automation of the entire purchase process.

I'll also say that, when I make a large grocery purchase, I prefer the presence of a cashier and bagger due to my laziness regarding such things.

 Cheesecat wrote:
I wouldn't call wanting basic things like universal healthcare and being able to afford shelter, post-secondary education and food greedy but whatever.

And guess what. Health care for everyone is already covered when you need it. The hospitals account for people without health insurance already.

Post-secondary education? That's fething laughable.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
I wouldn't call wanting basic things like universal healthcare and being able to afford shelter, post-secondary education and food greedy but whatever.

And guess what. Health care for everyone is already covered when you need it. The hospitals account for people without health insurance already.

Post-secondary education? That's fething laughable.

I am an awesome person, thanks for noticing (to your last post, which quoted me). Or were you being a cynical, sarcastic contrarian ? Tone reads so difficultly in text format, sometimes, it's hard to tell.

To those opposed to those touting the more social democratic ideals in this thread, i haven't noted a single suggestion towards an improved society. So you're all okay with 92% of the wealth in the country being concentrated in 8% of the population - with a full on half of that, concentrated in the top 1.5%.

Truly, none of you see any correlation between poverty, crime, sickness - a lack of education and access to resources (both social and financial), as being more culprit than some ephemeral "inability or unwillingness to work hard" ?

You can't be that obtuse. You can't be that ... uniformed. There's literally tens of thousands of books on the subject. And if that's too much effort, hell, spend twenty minutes googling it.


To your healthcare note quoted above - note that i said "you shouldn't lose your job, and lose your healthcare coverage that doesn't come with the real and pervasive threat of bankruptcy. A hospital cannot refuse you treatment in this country, yes. What they can do is destroy you financially should you have the misfortune to both lose your job, not be able to afford cobra, and get something nasty, like, say Cancer, before you get a new one. Or even something simple like appendicitis. Or when you get that new job, and get that health care, get denied cuz, ya know, pre-existing condition, sorry pal. You got that cancer before we covered you, and now it's on you to fight us to cover it.


And what about post-secondary education is laughable ? Are we to determine that in addition to having no desire for an egalitarian society, and by proxy a firm desire in a laissez-faire imperative (how very very gilded age of you), that you also find an educated populace at odds with your beliefs ?

Laughable to want a world where there's equal access to resources, education, basic healthcare - a world where human dignity matters more than symbols and men dead for hundreds of years printed on paper.

This is what you're advocating is laughable ?

If so, that is laughable.

We have too many people going to college as it is.

If we had a dedicated and non frowned upon trade system that wasn't considered a "dumping ground" for "bad" kids, our country would be much better off.

Give me a carpenter over a communications major 8 days a week.

 cincydooley wrote:
We have too many people going to college as it is.

If we had a dedicated and non frowned upon trade system that wasn't considered a "dumping ground" for "bad" kids, our country would be much better off.

Give me a carpenter over a communications major 8 days a week.

Btw, i'm a construction project manager. Started out as a field measure tradesman in the carpentry union (measuring window mullions). I now work in the mechanical field.

That's what I'm saying. That kind of gak is much more functional and beneficial to society as a whole than the degrees lots of people are graduating with.

 Haight wrote:
To those opposed to those touting the more social democratic ideals in this thread, i haven't noted a single suggestion towards an improved society. So you're all okay with 92% of the wealth in the country being concentrated in 8% of the population - with a full on half of that, concentrated in the top 1.5%.

Truly, none of you see any correlation between poverty, crime, sickness - a lack of education and access to resources (both social and financial), as being more culprit than some ephemeral "inability or unwillingness to work hard" ?

You can't be that obtuse. You can't be that ... uniformed. There's literally tens of thousands of books on the subject. And if that's too much effort, hell, spend twenty minutes googling it.


To your healthcare note quoted above - note that i said "you shouldn't lose your job, and lose your healthcare coverage that doesn't come with the real and pervasive threat of bankruptcy. A hospital cannot refuse you treatment in this country, yes. What they can do is destroy you financially should you have the misfortune to both lose your job, not be able to afford cobra, and get something nasty, like, say Cancer, before you get a new one. Or even something simple like appendicitis. Or when you get that new job, and get that health care, get denied cuz, ya know, pre-existing condition, sorry pal. You got that cancer before we covered you, and now it's on you to fight us to cover it.


And what about post-secondary education is laughable ? Are we to determine that in addition to having no desire for an egalitarian society, and by proxy a firm desire in a laissez-faire imperative (how very very gilded age of you), that you also find an educated populace at odds with your beliefs ?

Laughable to want a world where there's equal access to resources, education, basic healthcare - a world where human dignity matters more than symbols and men dead for hundreds of years printed on paper.

This is what you're advocating is laughable ?

If so, that is laughable.

I like my money too much to spend it subsidizing the rest of you.

cincydooley wrote:We have too many people going to college as it is.

If we had a dedicated and non frowned upon trade system that wasn't considered a "dumping ground" for "bad" kids, our country would be much better off.

Give me a carpenter over a communications major 8 days a week.

Ah. I see now. You don't understand the difference between training and education. Well, good luck with that.

Seaward wrote:I like my money too much to spend it subsidizing the rest of you.

For an air force pilot (that is you, right?) that's a very strange attitude to take. It's almost as though you believe that those jets magically appeared, and weren't at all the byproduct of a push to promote post-secondary education.

 azazel the cat wrote:
For an air force pilot (that is you, right?)

Please don't ever insult me like that again.

It's almost as though you believe that those jets magically appeared, and weren't at all the byproduct of a push to promote post-secondary education.

So commissioning officers in the military is an elaborate "go to university!" scheme? That's a new one.

I still find Haight's theory that people would willingly spend $10 for a McMeal laughable. I don't care what your convictions are, gak food that's barely worth a buck doesn't become magically worth $5 over night. If that's your conviction, you can exercise it now. Tip counter service at fast food restaurants.

 azazel the cat wrote:

cincydooley wrote:We have too many people going to college as it is.

If we had a dedicated and non frowned upon trade system that wasn't considered a "dumping ground" for "bad" kids, our country would be much better off.

Give me a carpenter over a communications major 8 days a week.

Ah. I see now. You don't understand the difference between training and education. Well, good luck with that.

How is that? Please, enlighten me. There's a world of difference between a university education and trade education. Huge. I took classes on Medieval literature. They're worthless. I'd much rather have taken an engine repair class as a trade school.

Seaward wrote:I like my money too much to spend it subsidizing the rest of you.

For an air force pilot (that is you, right?) that's a very strange attitude to take. It's almost as though you believe that those jets magically appeared, and weren't at all the byproduct of a push to promote post-secondary education.

 cincydooley wrote:
That's what I'm saying. That kind of gak is much more functional and beneficial to society as a whole than the degrees lots of people are graduating with.

I personally love the fact that Mike Rowe (the Dirty Jobs guy) has actually appeared before congress to combat that sort of belief.... Honestly, Carpenters, Construction Workers, Plumbers and other "menial labor" type jobs do deserve better pay than someone who can manage to flip a burger to an alarm, whilst high on pot or cocaine (or whatever)

 cincydooley wrote:
That's what I'm saying. That kind of gak is much more functional and beneficial to society as a whole than the degrees lots of people are graduating with.

I failed to mention that my degrees (all 3 of them!) are in law related fields.

And though i'm not a police officer, or lawyer, i would not trade my degrees, or education for anything.

In fact, my education taught me how to think, and that's why i am good at what i do today, though it's largely an industry where a degree is fairly optional (i'm generalizing... but generally speaking, that is).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I still find Haight's theory that people would willingly spend $10 for a McMeal laughable. I don't care what your convictions are, gak food that's barely worth a buck doesn't become magically worth $5 over night. If that's your conviction, you can exercise it now. Tip counter service at fast food restaurants.

Understandable that you're resistant to the idea ; most are. Again, spend some time studying Sweden's model. You might be surprised at what you find.

If i can recommend Michael Newman's "Socialism: A very short introduction". 165 pages, fair assessment of the political school of thought, and addresses how bolshevism / soviet communism are pervsions of true socialism.

It's worth a read : even if it doesn't change your mind, you'll be better armed with some facts to support your own stance.

You guys realize that a lot of trades still require post-secondary education.

Honesty, studying sweden as a model for the United States is pointless. Their population demographics look nothing like ours (few countries do). Further, it's much easier to institute socialist ideals on smaller populations of like individuals than it is in a country as diverse as the United States.

You'll also note that vocational education in Sweden is incorporated in their secondary schools and isn't frowned upon. In fact, that's the model most of the high achieving European countries use. I wish the US used that. But we don't. Instead we push the "everyone should go to college" agenda which is the wrong thing to do, because everyone shouldn't. And FYI, it appears that over half of the Swedish student population chooses the vocational route.

 Cheesecat wrote:
You guys realize that a lot of trades still require post-secondary education.

Cant' speak for every trade, clearly, but in construction... not so much. Sure if you want to join a private firm and work up to management.

Mostly for construction laborers, unionized, you just need the apprenticeship (which leads to journeyman, and master), and the appopriate licenses. I've worked in a lot of divisions of american construction. It's fairly ubiquitous that way.

That said, a degree does not hurt you at all in a trade... but it's hardly compulsory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
Honesty, studying sweden as a model for the United States is pointless.

Why?

Their population demographics look nothing like ours (few countries do).

Clarify, past scale, please.

Further, it's much easier to institute socialist ideals on smaller populations of like individuals than it is in a country as diverse as the United States.

Again, clarify, past the argument of scale. If anything, scale makes socialism (particularly democratic socialism) easier.

You'll also note that vocational education in Sweden is incorporated in their secondary schools and isn't frowned upon.

True - but is it frowned upon in the states ? You keep saying it's frowned upon here. I've never met anyone who said "i'm an electrician" and was snubbed at a social gathering.

In fact, that's the model most of the high achieving European countries use.

True, however if anything, in Europe post-secondary school is even more strongly encouraged than it is stateside.

I wish the US used that. But we don't. Instead we push the "everyone should go to college" agenda which is the wrong thing to do, because everyone shouldn't. And FYI, it appears that over half of the Swedish student population chooses the vocational route.

I'm still confused where you're getting this idea that trade = bad in america. I've really seen no evidence to support this. I will agree that some kids that show they have trouble with traditional scholastic pursuits are encouraged to seek out a trade education, but this isn't really derogatory. You want to talk to someone who can show you how to practically apply math ? Talk to a carpenter. You want to talk to someone who can practically employ physics for you ? Talk to a mechanical estimator.

I will agree with you though, the degree to which education has become a business in the US is pretty distasteful. Academia should not be for profit. It loses it's mission in the search for profit if it does. Or rather it's primary mission (education) becomes subservient to profit.

I can understand businesses doing that, but schools doing that is kinda shameful.

 Haight wrote:

True - but is it frowned upon in the states ? You keep saying it's frowned upon here. I've never met anyone who said "i'm an electrician" and was snubbed at a social gathering.

This is true, however it is prior to gaining that employment/career as an electrician.... During our High School years. I know when I was still in HS, it was basically drummed into our heads that the *only* way to be a true success was to go to college and get a degree.

We adults know that this is simply not true, but at the time, I was fairly hard on myself for not being in a good position to go to college. We as a society also seem to place heavy importance on being good in athletics, would it not be better to teach our kids, as a society to live healthy lifestyles, seek out what they love and make money doing it? I know that by the time I left my HS, the electives classes offered had been cut in half by my senior year. This means that semi-vocational based courses went out the window, which is a damn shame because those sorts of classes may have been the only opportunity for someone to find their passion and what they want to do once they enter the "working man's world"

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But that's the thing. Unless you still want to pay shareholders the same amount of profit, which admittedly that is what the standard model calls for, then yes, the burger has to go up.

But if you accept that you're still making insane amounts of money, not just as much, then the burger can remain at the same price.

You missed his point.

The complaints about America being such an "unhealthy country" stem from the fact that it costs more for a student or other individual who might actually be working at a McDonald's as a "living wage" cannot realistically afford to live off anything except fast food/junk food.

Quality food gets priced so high that you would think it was GW setting the prices. The chicken breasts that I use for making my own food can maybe be used for three meals and costs as much as a week of just me eating fast food.

 Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
The only reason they do not, is because of the artificial floor on wages.

So the reality is fast food is probably a $5 an hour job, that people are getting paid $8-$9 for, and are now striking to get $15.

I say abolish the minimum wage, and then let's sort it out.

When you talk about the minimum wage as an 'artificial floor' on wages and then argue for its abolition, you are in effect arguing that economic purity is more important than working people being paid a living wage.

That's fething nuts.