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 AgeOfEgos wrote:
Reavers in normal 40k? Didn't they get even stronger with last Apoc release? That seems nuts.

Well, they are 1450 points...

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

Or read anything Jervis has written in White Dwarf in the past year. He makes it plainly clear that they have no interest in building a set of clear, concise, internally consistent rules for competitive 40k. In fact, he thinks that anyone who wants clear, concise, consistent rules is playing the game wrong and has come out and said so.

I said we'd miss Alessio in 6th edition...

Here, as we bob about trying to even get our heads around the 6th rulebook's cumbersome casualty removal and all the rest of the clutter, now we are awash with digital additions, fortification 'codex', add - on allies who don't contribute to the allies we're adding on, variant codices of the codices and now we can bring Reaver titans to regular games of 40k.

I predict they'll see a boom in short term sales for sure...

Long term, erm... I don't know, perhaps Kirby is finally going to piss off and this is his last hurrah? This feels like it broke the game completely.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

Or read anything Jervis has written in White Dwarf in the past year. He makes it plainly clear that they have no interest in building a set of clear, concise, internally consistent rules for competitive 40k. In fact, he thinks that anyone who wants clear, concise, consistent rules is playing the game wrong and has come out and said so.

I said we'd miss Alessio in 6th edition...

Here, as we bob about trying to even get our heads around the 6th rulebook's cumbersome casualty removal and all the rest of the clutter, now we are awash with digital additions, fortification 'codex', add - on allies who don't contribute to the allies we're adding on, variant codices of the codices and now we can bring Reaver titans to regular games of 40k.

I predict they'll see a boom in short term sales for sure...

Long term, erm... I don't know, perhaps Kirby is finally going to piss off and this is his last hurrah? This feels like it broke the game completely.

But if he pissed off, then who else will I blame?

Seriously though, I do hope he is leaving, but as we haven't heard anything about it, I doubt it :(

Look, at this point I buy models because they're pretty. Gaming, rules wise, whatever. GW and FW still make awesome toyz.

More options for playing is hardly a bad thing.

But... but... WHAT IS GOING ON. Why oh why can the Imperium take an actual Reaver titan, but the ONLY dope Dark Eldar superheavy (which is hardly even a superheavy) can't be taken?!?!?
The Tantalus is such a cool, unique vehicle that would perfectly fill the niche of a DE Lord of War.

It's like, I don't care about the Mantas and the Reavers because why the hell not bring one? But COME ON. If you're handing out toys to armies, offer them to everyone! DE actually got zero new options. I'm not trying to be a butt-hurt DE kid, cuz I love my Imperium toys too. But I just don't understand the neglect.

I think that people aren't as frustrated by the increased range of options as much as the bizarre lack of consistency.

My two cents.

Phantom and Reaver titans in regular 40K games sounds nutty, but when you get over your first outraged reaction it's hardly bad that there are more options -- Especially when they come in the form of supplements and expansions. A tournament or event organiser can easily just list which supplements or expansions (or all of them) are allowed which in turn will tell everyone thinking about participating what the games will look like. A tournament where everything is allowed will be a fun one to participate in atleast once a year since you'll probably see a lot of painted superheavies on the tables. It won't be balanced or even competitive but it will be fun, and it won't be the only tournament you can play that year.

I for one think this is all great stuff, and as far as it being a cash grab goes, it's seriously tempting me to buy a Reaver or a Phantom and having it pro-painted since atleast theoretically I'll have a chance to play with it atleast a couple times for giggles.

 Urukguy27 wrote:
Look, at this point I buy models because they're pretty. Gaming, rules wise, whatever. GW and FW still make awesome toyz.

More options for playing is hardly a bad thing.

But... but... WHAT IS GOING ON. Why oh why can the Imperium take an actual Reaver titan, but the ONLY dope Dark Eldar superheavy (which is hardly even a superheavy) can't be taken?!?!?
The Tantalus is such a cool, unique vehicle that would perfectly fill the niche of a DE Lord of War.

It's like, I don't care about the Mantas and the Reavers because why the hell not bring one? But COME ON. If you're handing out toys to armies, offer them to everyone! DE actually got zero new options. I'm not trying to be a butt-hurt DE kid, cuz I love my Imperium toys too. But I just don't understand the neglect.

I think that people aren't as frustrated by the increased range of options as much as the bizarre lack of consistency.

My two cents.

Because it isn't a super heavy, and can already be taken in normal games?

The Tantalus can already be taken as a heavy support. It's one of those FW units, like the sentry pylons and the arcanthrites.

Just bought my Revenant Titan....Darn you GW!!!!

I doubt this will break the game very much at the competitive level in actual reality, because most competitive games with those sorts of guys had them banned in the first place even before Escalation was a concept. Specifically, I imagine most people who have a heart attack over Forge World models in 40k games already have all forge world models banned whether there's Escalation in play or not.

Pleasantly surprised all the imperial things mention they are available to Adepta Sororitas too. Unlike GW, FW remembers them!

TiamatRoar wrote:
I doubt this will break the game very much at the competitive level in actual reality, because most competitive games with those sorts of guys had them banned in the first place even before Escalation was a concept. Specifically, I imagine most people who have a heart attack over Forge World models in 40k games already have all forge world models banned whether there's Escalation in play or not.

100% correct, and those that think new stuff that is imbalanced and/or not playtested at all/not even intended to be balanced is something new are simply having memory problems or are new to the game. GW's done it before and the tournament scene has always adapted. I think pretty much ever since the original Vampire Counts book that had the regen bunker, and the following obnoxious Daemons of Chaos army book, Warhammer Fantasy has been fully house ruled to be playable in Europe. That's a long time of fully comped play and the competitive scene is still going strong.

40K will survive, especially as the only thing you really need to do is list the supplemental rulebooks that will not be in use. Besides, if I recall correctly, back somewhere in 2001 to 2004 when I first started hanging out at Dakka Dakka the Americans here told me all about the composition scoring and sportsmanship scores in every 40K tournament over there. The comps you guys had were so tight that guys like Ed Maule were in a war because they were playing to win at all costs unlike pretty much everyone else. Then for a while it seemed like the wind started blowing from another direction and comp structures were canned and everyone was adamant the game needs to be a free for all deathmatch where the superior generals with the best cheese are triumphant and celebrated. I think the winds are blowing from the other direction again.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I doubt this will break the game very much at the competitive level in actual reality, because most competitive games with those sorts of guys had them banned in the first place even before Escalation was a concept. Specifically, I imagine most people who have a heart attack over Forge World models in 40k games already have all forge world models banned whether there's Escalation in play or not.

So do you continue to ban Forge World, do you lift the ban for only those forge world models in the actual escalation book, do you allow forge world regular models and armies marked for use in 40k or do you only allow Games Workshop-made super heavies and therefore only allow the stompa, big tanks and khorne thingy?

Either you go all in or not at all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm, I have been informed that Tom Kirby does not influence the releases of the design team. I retract my earlier.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Either you go all in or not at all?

I was under the impression that was how most people rolled? (either all or nothing)

 gorgon wrote:
*shrug* I actually think the helmets are a huge improvement from most of the NL models we've seen from GW.

Saying they are an improvement on those though isn't saying much!

If I were making those guys, they would get a mk6 Beakie helm, and a skull-decal fitted to the front of them. Would look far more sinister than either the GW 40k guys (which look comical) or these, which the addition of wings make the helmet look crowded/muddled. You've already got NL iconography on the model in 2 places it doesn't need the helmet as well, and in that sense if I were to use these helmets I would probably try and remove the wings.

The bits of flayed skin/heads etc. are a nice touch on the actual miniatures though, although I'm sure what many NL fans will have been green-stuffing for years.

Hmmm, I have been informed that Tom Kirby does not influence the releases of the design team. I retract my earlier.

He may not do directly, but the overall effect is the same as if he were - 'suits' with no interest in the game beyond the bottom line get to decide what gets released and what doesn't, it's been acknowledged by several key sources and the evidence would be plainly obvious even if it weren't.

Re Lords of War, a bit of deja vu:

Had built and painted the second Reaver kit ever produced by Mike Biasi Studios (pre-Armorcast) and took it to a tournament in Los Angeles. This was before anyone had seen any of these kits (1991). Had it stashed in a box under the table. Set up part of my army on the table and then reached under and put the Reaver on the table. The look on my opponent's face was priceless as was the "N0000000ooooooooo.....".

I can see this scene repeating itself endlessly in different iterations with the new Lord of War rules....

T

They've sent out another christmas jigsaw but they've not made the same mistake with the file names so we don't have the full image yet.

yeah,
Huzzah!

Panic...

Seems like the World Eater Red Butchers

 Armorum Ferrum wrote:
Seems like the World Eater Red Butchers

You're getting that from a leg and a hilt? Impressive

Are the rules for all this Forgeworld release stuff available or do I have to buy all the IA books to see the rules? FW site has some limited info but not all.

 Armorum Ferrum wrote:
Seems like the World Eater Red Butchers

Agree completely. Recognise that leg armour.

 Bull0 wrote:

 Armorum Ferrum wrote:
Seems like the World Eater Red Butchers

You're getting that from a leg and a hilt? Impressive

Yep - I've seen em up close at Games Day and I've been waiting for them ever since

 Armorum Ferrum wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 Armorum Ferrum wrote:
Seems like the World Eater Red Butchers

You're getting that from a leg and a hilt? Impressive

Yep - I've seen em up close at Games Day and I've been waiting for them ever since

Well, that explains it.

 Fishboy wrote:
Are the rules for all this Forgeworld release stuff available or do I have to buy all the IA books to see the rules? FW site has some limited info but not all.

That depends on which models you're asking about. Horus Heresy models will, obviously, be in the Horus Heresy books. Other models will be in the IA books. And, to confuse the issue more, some of the Heresy vehicles are also in the new edition of IA2 (some of them as relics, some of them not). .

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Are the rules for all this Forgeworld release stuff available or do I have to buy all the IA books to see the rules? FW site has some limited info but not all.

That depends on which models you're asking about. Horus Heresy models will, obviously, be in the Horus Heresy books. Other models will be in the IA books. And, to confuse the issue more, some of the Heresy vehicles are also in the new edition of IA2 (some of them as relics, some of them not). .

Yeah, it's not really the best system. Wish they had a code at the bottom saying where you could find the most current rules. (You forgot to mention that they've also updated stuff, so it's not always clear what the most current version is, even if you have rules for a version.)


...Also, Tannhauser, great avatar. Every time I see it, I get a small sense of nostalgia. Also, sometimes the impulse to get more coffee. Also, sometimes Toto's score by mistake.

More marines.

Yay.

Remember when they said the HH stuff wouldn't impact other releases, neither 40k nor fantasy? Wasn't that funny?

Where are the admech myrmidons!!!! I want to see better pics (painted).

When are they doing War in Heaven? I want some necron super heavies. The ones from GW aren't good enough. Where are the classics, like the Aeonic Orb and the Abbatoir?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
More marines.

Yay.

Remember when they said the HH stuff wouldn't impact other releases, neither 40k nor fantasy? Wasn't that funny?

It's still Forgeworld, so if it isn't Space Marines, or Imperial Guard tanks, there's not much else they do apart from a little Xenos here and a few there.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It's still Forgeworld, so if it isn't Space Marines, or Imperial Guard tanks, there's not much else they do apart from a little Xenos here and a few there.

Hey, maybe on that last part they could release a neat model or two for some of the Necron HQ's that were in IA 12... you know, the book that came out back in March? Just an idea.

 Fishboy wrote:
Are the rules for all this Forgeworld release stuff available or do I have to buy all the IA books to see the rules? FW site has some limited info but not all.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf list of where to find things