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 Malika2 wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Yeah, still no spring-loaded missiles and water pistol action!

I've got three words for you: Spring loaded thunderhawk.

As for water pistol action...I think water games are more meant for Slaaneshi forces...

I feel dirty now, I hope you're happy!

 Blacksails wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That'd be a great move, though they'd still need to be a bit cheaper, 35pts for an AV10 open topped 2HP BS3 mutli-laser isn't a great buy. If they were 25pts and taken as part of a Platoon they'd be solid, with the armored ones at a 15pt upgrade.

Yeah, a 25pts Sentinel with some sort of special rules and taken as an infantry support would make them at least workable. They'd essentially become cheaper, less durable (no 5++) warwalkers with less killy options. Especially if you make the weapons a touch cheaper (basically take 5pts off each upgrade in the current dex). It'd certainly make them interesting anyways and pull them out of the FA slot.

Indeed, something like that would make them viable and worthwhile, without overpowering them, and giving them a niche that isn't the Über-walker of the Eldar, but is still useful.

xruslanx wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.

People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?

What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.

Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.

Vendettas are almost never run in squadrons, you don't need to, it's not like you're going use the other FoC slots for anything else.

To be fair, at AV11, 150pts, and HS, it'd still be a solid unit, just not the auto-buy it is now.

150pts for an AV11 flyer with 3 TL lascannons, a transport capacity, extra armor, hover mode option and a special deployment option is still miles better than most other flyers and still very powerful. Just more appropriately costed, with flyer armor and in the right FoC slot for something with 3 long range, high S, low AP, twin linked guns.

you're having a laugh mate. 150 points for an av 11 heavy support that can't start on the table? That would be taken less than armoured sentinals are at the moment, since you'd be castrating your heavy support which is where the goodies are.

AV11 HS with 3 TL lascannons and possibly two Heavy Bolters as well, that can transport troops, has incredible speed, generate a cover save for itself, is only hit by shooting attacks on 6's in the vast majority of situations and is completely immune to assaults? And can still revert to Skimmer type when it wants? Tri-las predators are 140pts, and while they have a slightly better overall hit rate and better frontal armor, they pack nowhere near the utility, mobility, etc and can't be transports either.

Hell, I own 3, I'd still take them like that.

While you're at it why don't you just make it so that you can only take one of them for every primary detachment? I bet you would still take them then too. I mean at this rate why not make them 200 points and AV 10 because I bet you would still take them then. Because I mean a land raider is 250 and only has two twin linked lascannons! Talk about a deal.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
While you're at it why don't you just make it so that you can only take one of them for every primary detachment? I bet you would still take them then too. I mean at this rate why not make them 200 points and AV 10 because I bet you would still take them then. Because I mean a land raider is 250 and only has two twin linked lascannons! Talk about a deal.

You sure do know how to properly refute an argument.

Hyperbole and sarcasm really help to highlight your point (or lack thereof).

I imagine its probably easier than intelligently explaining your side or refuting any of the other points with counter points or examples.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That'd be a great move, though they'd still need to be a bit cheaper, 35pts for an AV10 open topped 2HP BS3 mutli-laser isn't a great buy. If they were 25pts and taken as part of a Platoon they'd be solid, with the armored ones at a 15pt upgrade.

Yeah, a 25pts Sentinel with some sort of special rules and taken as an infantry support would make them at least workable. They'd essentially become cheaper, less durable (no 5++) warwalkers with less killy options. Especially if you make the weapons a touch cheaper (basically take 5pts off each upgrade in the current dex). It'd certainly make them interesting anyways and pull them out of the FA slot.

Indeed, something like that would make them viable and worthwhile, without overpowering them, and giving them a niche that isn't the Über-walker of the Eldar, but is still useful.

xruslanx wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.

People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?

What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.

Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.

Vendettas are almost never run in squadrons, you don't need to, it's not like you're going use the other FoC slots for anything else.

To be fair, at AV11, 150pts, and HS, it'd still be a solid unit, just not the auto-buy it is now.

150pts for an AV11 flyer with 3 TL lascannons, a transport capacity, extra armor, hover mode option and a special deployment option is still miles better than most other flyers and still very powerful. Just more appropriately costed, with flyer armor and in the right FoC slot for something with 3 long range, high S, low AP, twin linked guns.

you're having a laugh mate. 150 points for an av 11 heavy support that can't start on the table? That would be taken less than armoured sentinals are at the moment, since you'd be castrating your heavy support which is where the goodies are.

AV11 HS with 3 TL lascannons and possibly two Heavy Bolters as well, that can transport troops, has incredible speed, generate a cover save for itself, is only hit by shooting attacks on 6's in the vast majority of situations and is completely immune to assaults? And can still revert to Skimmer type when it wants? Tri-las predators are 140pts, and while they have a slightly better overall hit rate and better frontal armor, they pack nowhere near the utility, mobility, etc and can't be transports either.

Hell, I own 3, I'd still take them like that.

i don't know how any guard player could hope to be taken seriously by saying you'd toss away all of your heavy support in exchange for three weaker vendettas.

Marine players take tri las predators because they don't have access to leman russes or manticores. Marines also do not rely on heavy support to deal damage the way that the guard does, you could make a perfectly killy and efficient marine list without touching heavy support, wheras many guard lists are build around theirs.

You may as well move veterans to hq, and move marbo into the dark eldar codex. It makes about as much sense.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Valkyrie had fluff justifying it's AV12 operating as a clumsier Skimmer (sometimes they mount heavier armor for close support and landing roles but their maneuverability and speed suffers). If GW wants it to be a proper flyer again, it should go back to AV11, or be AV12 and limited to running as a Skimmer (perhaps an option to field it as either/or). It's not like the Predator example really, as the Valkyrie specifically had fluff inserted justifying its higher armor and thus Skimmer status as opposed to an actual Flyer.

Where did you find that information?

I wonder if people advocating for 150-175p vendettas with AV11 would consider them worthwhile ever over a new costed predator? People aren't falling over themselves to take the Predator this edition even though it is now very cost effective and AV13 is more relevant than ever. Predator has almost the exact same firepower as the Vendetta (2.22 vs 2.25 hits per turn) and though the Vendetta is more resilient against non-skyfire weapons and the Predator is worse vs flyer targets, the Vendetta can't shoot turn 1 and unless you intend to take away its flyer status saving grave will probably not be shooting on one of the later turns as well. Predator may therefore output 50% more firepower than the Vendetta for approximately the same cost. The current balance situation between the Vendetta and other similar units in other armies already seems contentious enough to justify a minimum of changes, though with the GW balance pendulum we already know for a fact that it is not in GW's best business interests to make decisions in favor of balance at the cost of sales. Vendettas may yet get a nerf that could put them in an inferior/not top tier competitive position for the next 5 years.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
While you're at it why don't you just make it so that you can only take one of them for every primary detachment? I bet you would still take them then too. I mean at this rate why not make them 200 points and AV 10 because I bet you would still take them then. Because I mean a land raider is 250 and only has two twin linked lascannons! Talk about a deal.

You sure do know how to properly refute an argument.

Hyperbole and sarcasm really help to highlight your point (or lack thereof).

I imagine its probably easier than intelligently explaining your side or refuting any of the other points with counter points or examples.

If you guys (more directed at Vaktathi) seriously think that a Heavy Support, 150 pt AV11 Vendetta is a good deal then I might as well have fun with the whole thing since it's obvious that you guys REALLY hate it and nothing will fix it. So I have fun with it.

Personally I think that making it 160 and keeping it where it is (disallowing squadrons) in Fast Attack is fine. I would still take it for 160 and I most Guard players would still consider it. Granted another underlying issue is the complete worthlessness of other Fast attack selections.
Making it 150 and AV 11 and moving it to heavy support? Honestly why not just remove the entry because that's effectively what will happen.

xruslanx wrote:
Marine players take tri las predators because they don't have access to leman russes or manticores. Marines also do not rely on heavy support to deal damage the way that the guard does, you could make a perfectly killy and efficient marine list without touching heavy support, wheras many guard lists are build around theirs.

You may as well move veterans to hq, and move marbo into the dark eldar codex. It makes about as much sense.

And yet marine players in my opinion definitely have the edge on HS at this point in time. The TFC is now insane and the Predator is extremely good. The vindicator is still better than a Leman Russ Demolisher.

An 150pts AV11 vendetta would still have a transport capacity, and can maneuver into positions for better AV facings. It'd also be reasonable to give it strafing run, so then it'd hit more reliably against ground targets than the Pred.

Assuming it'll be left in the FA slot, it'd also not compete for other key heavies, also unlike the pred.

Honestly, still a competitively priced unit.

 Blacksails wrote:
An 150pts AV11 vendetta would still have a transport capacity, and can maneuver into positions for better AV facings. It'd also be reasonable to give it strafing run, so then it'd hit more reliably against ground targets than the Pred.

Assuming it'll be left in the FA slot, it'd also not compete for other key heavies, also unlike the pred.

Honestly, still a competitively priced unit.

See now this is more reasonable. I'd take a 150pt AV11 Vendetta that had Strafing Run.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
An 150pts AV11 vendetta would still have a transport capacity, and can maneuver into positions for better AV facings. It'd also be reasonable to give it strafing run, so then it'd hit more reliably against ground targets than the Pred.

Assuming it'll be left in the FA slot, it'd also not compete for other key heavies, also unlike the pred.

Honestly, still a competitively priced unit.

See now this is more reasonable. I'd take a 150pt AV11 Vendetta that had Strafing Run.

I figure it'd be logical for a dedicated ground attack/anti-heavy armour gunship would've had it, but I guess that's just the edition change and a lack of a proper update.

Anyways, before this gets further off topic, I think we can safely agree that the Vendetta is overpowered and in need of some not insignificant re balancing. But we'll see what GW in their almighty wisdom has in store for us.

Either way, I'd like to see the Vulture make an appearance.

 Blacksails wrote:
Anyways, before this gets further off topic, I think we can safely agree

Nope :^)

 ph34r wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Anyways, before this gets further off topic, I think we can safely agree

Nope :^)

If not externally overpowered, at least internally so.

There, that should just about sum up any perspective on the vendetta.

Now can we get some news/rumours, please?

 Blacksails wrote:
If not externally overpowered, at least internally so.

There, that should just about sum up any perspective on the vendetta.

Now can we get some news/rumours, please?

I'll agree with that.

There are no new rumors sadly, I wouldn't expect more for a while.

You guys are amusing. Especially those arguing about the Valk/Vendetta's. As to the rumours? Don't put any stock in them.

Now seeing as this has become a thread of conjecture and fantasy, I'll add my 2 pennies worth.

Imho, Valk/Vendettas will get nerfed, both because they need it(were 30 points undercosted as a skimmer in 5th ed) and because this is how gw operates(force the players to buy new models).

Question is" What would be appropriate?".

I'm betting that they will either get bumped to 160 pt for valk 190 for vendetta if they keep their current stats and abilities.
Or
They drop the front/side av to 11 then expect to see 130 for Valk and 160 for Vendetta.

At these points tbey are still better flyers than the Eldar, DE and Tau have.

Also expect to see one or both get repurposed like the Tau Broadside. Something like the Vendetta's lascannons getting replaced by 3tl autocannons or triple inferno cannons.


Btw, think that I've figured out what will happen with the HWT's. Bet gw makes them artillery units. Man, that would be nasty.

My fondest wish for the next codex is that there will be Vostroyan rough riders on cyber horses (space cossaks ftw).

Finally, expect that your snipers will get a Tau style buff like the kroot or sniper drones and that engineers can regenerate hull points on a roll of 4.

It's been fun postulating but Iz gottas goez now. Later

Edit for some of the typos...,tiny keyboard+no stylus=lotsa typos

I'd like the see the Valkyrie & Vendetta become dedicated ground attack aircraft and lose Skyfire in return for Strafing run. That would give Thunderbolts and Lightnings a purpose. Move the Hydra into Fast Attack (it is the same chassis as the Hellhound) and make a plastic kit for it and there would be a reason for getting it.

 ph34r wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Marine players take tri las predators because they don't have access to leman russes or manticores. Marines also do not rely on heavy support to deal damage the way that the guard does, you could make a perfectly killy and efficient marine list without touching heavy support, wheras many guard lists are build around theirs.

You may as well move veterans to hq, and move marbo into the dark eldar codex. It makes about as much sense.

And yet marine players in my opinion definitely have the edge on HS at this point in time. The TFC is now insane and the Predator is extremely good. The vindicator is still better than a Leman Russ Demolisher.

how do marines 'have the edge'? Demolishers have a turret and, more importantly, av 14/13/11, the vindicators crappy av 13/11/10 can be popped at the side by an autocannon.

Space marines also can't get basilisks or manticores, or any meaningful artillery at all really (whirlwinds are glorified peashooters). Guard's main problems are with troops, everything else just needs a price cut outside of the aforementioned vendetta.

The thing with the vendetta is that it offten switches to hover mode to let off or take on troops, so dropping tis armour to 11 or 10 would just kill it as a transport option.
Id be more inclinde to bump it up to 150 points reduce its transport capacity to say 6 so it used for comand squads and the suposed smaller vet squads. but then id say that because it is a heavy flyer remove its jink save.

As for the rest of it instead of releaseing new plastic infantry units what id realy like to see is releasing a number of upgrade packs that have armour plates, diffrent heads weapons that sort of thing so you buy the base cadian or catachan unit and can then use the bits from the upgrade pack to make them diffrent.

well that and i want my plastic hydras

 DarthOvious wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
drop it to AV11,

Why? Such a change would be much more horrific for the fate of the Valkyrie, would break the established fluff around its AV, and would make your proposed cost changes overkill as it would be bad at that point already.

Perhaps keep AV12 for the Valkyrie but make the Vendetta AV11?

One thing is for sure if the Vendetta keeps AV12 then it will be increased points wise. It functions a lot like the Stormraven (troop transport & AV12), barring guns of course and thats 200pts.

The vendetta is nothing like a stormraven.

1. not an assault vehicle
2. cannont carry troops and a walker
3. has fixed weapons, only shooting forward. No turret to shoot at a 2nd target, no machine spirit power in the IG
4. Is vunerable to the melta rule, 2 dice on the penetration role.

How to fix the Valk/vendetta.

1. No squadron
2. Point increase to 150 points - 170 range.

A storm talon puts out alot of fire power, twin linked too, at a pretty cheap price. Storm raven puts out as much if not more for more points, but, better protection.

What I want to see the Vendetta do:

1. Dedicated transport for CCS or Storm troopers (similar to how land raiders can do it)
2. Slight points increase
3. Would like deep strike to come back in, (similar to land raider rules for BA)
4. A varient where we can drop a scout sentinel into play (like the forge world)

 martin74 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
drop it to AV11,

Why? Such a change would be much more horrific for the fate of the Valkyrie, would break the established fluff around its AV, and would make your proposed cost changes overkill as it would be bad at that point already.

Perhaps keep AV12 for the Valkyrie but make the Vendetta AV11?

One thing is for sure if the Vendetta keeps AV12 then it will be increased points wise. It functions a lot like the Stormraven (troop transport & AV12), barring guns of course and thats 200pts.

The vendetta is nothing like a stormraven.

Of course not. It doesn't fly and it doesn't carry troops.

1. not an assault vehicle

I know right. Cause Imperial Guard are famous for their assaults and not all their guns.

2. cannont carry troops and a walker

It can carry troops and you get the special deployment like we do. One extra walker on top of that is not a big difference. Some BA armies don't even take the walkers and just take the troops inside. Anything inside still takes a gigantic hit when the stormraven is destroyed and will probably be dead afterwards.

3. has fixed weapons, only shooting forward. No turret to shoot at a 2nd target, no machine spirit power in the IG

You do get 3 twin linked Lascannons though. Which is just nasty.

4. Is vunerable to the melta rule, 2 dice on the penetration role.

Those quad guns with their Meltas

To sum up, I wasn't stating that the Vendetta was an exact match for the stormraven, but it is very similar in what role it performs and how well it performs that role.

1) You can carry troops. OK so you can't carry a dreadnought but then you don't get any dreadnoughts anyway. However you can still carry squad X from destination A to destination B quickly

2) You are armour value 12

3) You have a special deployment rule. So even if you do get vector locked, you can still deploy.

The differences you cited still don't warrant the massive points cost difference between the Stormraven and the Vendetta.

Vladsimpaler wrote:While you're at it why don't you just make it so that you can only take one of them for every primary detachment? I bet you would still take them then too. I mean at this rate why not make them 200 points and AV 10 because I bet you would still take them then. Because I mean a land raider is 250 and only has two twin linked lascannons! Talk about a deal.

Again, a vehicle that's immune to assaults, is only hit by 98% of shooting attacks on 6's, has three twin linked long range guns that ignore all armor saves and can penetrate the heaviest tanks in the game, *and* transport capacity, incredible speed, and can still choose to operate as a skimmer if it chooses to. That's still puts almost everyone else's flyers to shame at 150pts and AV11, barring the Heldrake which i also think should be AV11 (but still would be 20pts more expensive).

this is coming from a guy that owns 3 vendettas.

xruslanx wrote:

i don't know how any guard player could hope to be taken seriously by saying you'd toss away all of your heavy support in exchange for three weaker vendettas.

Because they're silly good, getting that kind of firepower for that low a points investment is very rare, especially on super maneuverable skimmers that are incredibly difficult to engage, and still have a transport option. I'm not saying they'd be an auto-take, that's the point of such changes, but they'd still be very good and you'd have to actually think about taking them, as opposed to just tossing them in as a matter of course.

Marine players take tri las predators because they don't have access to leman russes or manticores.

Neither of which really fulfill the same roll as a trilas predator. Russ tanks aren't there to engage enemy tanks, they're bad at it, they're there to mash infantry of all types. Manticores can engage tanks due to their high Strength fairly effectively but are still much more generalist vehicles.

Marines also do not rely on heavy support to deal damage the way that the guard does, you could make a perfectly killy and efficient marine list without touching heavy support, wheras many guard lists are build around theirs.

To some degree yes, but at the same time, I've definitely run IG armies without any HS before and done just fine.

You may as well move veterans to hq, and move marbo into the dark eldar codex. It makes about as much sense.

Hrm...no.

A gunship transport sporting more firepower than a Land Raider and better direct-fire AT capability than any other unit in the codex sounds like a Heavy Support to me.

ph34r wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Valkyrie had fluff justifying it's AV12 operating as a clumsier Skimmer (sometimes they mount heavier armor for close support and landing roles but their maneuverability and speed suffers). If GW wants it to be a proper flyer again, it should go back to AV11, or be AV12 and limited to running as a Skimmer (perhaps an option to field it as either/or). It's not like the Predator example really, as the Valkyrie specifically had fluff inserted justifying its higher armor and thus Skimmer status as opposed to an actual Flyer.

Where did you find that information?

It's in the codex, talking about how sometimes it gets additional armor plating that limits its maneuverability when engaging in close support operations. I don't have my book on me right now but when I get home I can look up the passage.

I wonder if people advocating for 150-175p vendettas with AV11 would consider them worthwhile ever over a new costed predator? People aren't falling over themselves to take the Predator this edition even though it is now very cost effective and AV13 is more relevant than ever. Predator has almost the exact same firepower as the Vendetta (2.22 vs 2.25 hits per turn) and though the Vendetta is more resilient against non-skyfire weapons and the Predator is worse vs flyer targets, the Vendetta can't shoot turn 1 and unless you intend to take away its flyer status saving grave will probably not be shooting on one of the later turns as well. Predator may therefore output 50% more firepower than the Vendetta for approximately the same cost.

The big thing with the vendetta is that return fire is much less relevant and it can fill multiple roles, and can effectively take *all* the sponson options of a Predator and at very low premium by comparison, on top of being a transport. Right now, 140pts gets you three twin linked lascannons and two heavy bolters on an AV12 flyer platform that can transport 12 dudes, while all the Predator gets 1pt better frontal armor (and 1pt worse side armor) and the ability to start on the table, lacking the speed, transport capacity, and "double sponson" option of the Vendetta.

The current balance situation between the Vendetta and other similar units in other armies already seems contentious enough to justify a minimum of changes, though with the GW balance pendulum we already know for a fact that it is not in GW's best business interests to make decisions in favor of balance at the cost of sales. Vendettas may yet get a nerf that could put them in an inferior/not top tier competitive position for the next 5 years.

To be honest I'm *expecting* vendettas to be 230pts and take 2 HS slots with the way GW goes

 Vaktathi wrote:

I wonder if people advocating for 150-175p vendettas with AV11 would consider them worthwhile ever over a new costed predator? People aren't falling over themselves to take the Predator this edition even though it is now very cost effective and AV13 is more relevant than ever. Predator has almost the exact same firepower as the Vendetta (2.22 vs 2.25 hits per turn) and though the Vendetta is more resilient against non-skyfire weapons and the Predator is worse vs flyer targets, the Vendetta can't shoot turn 1 and unless you intend to take away its flyer status saving grave will probably not be shooting on one of the later turns as well. Predator may therefore output 50% more firepower than the Vendetta for approximately the same cost.

The big thing with the vendetta is that return fire is much less relevant and it can fill multiple roles, and can effectively take *all* the sponson options of a Predator and at very low premium by comparison, on top of being a transport. Right now, 140pts gets you three twin linked lascannons and two heavy bolters on an AV12 flyer platform that can transport 12 dudes, while all the Predator gets 1pt better frontal armor (and 1pt worse side armor) and the ability to start on the table, lacking the speed, transport capacity, and "double sponson" option of the Vendetta.

I like the way they assume that Marine players are not going to be falling over themselves for predators in the new edition, even though the codex has only been out for 2 weeks and not enough time has been spent to learn what lists work.

* Only one entry for Sentinels, no armor upgrade, closed cabin has no game effect but is just cosmetical.

What.

That's... stupid.

 Melissia wrote:

* Only one entry for Sentinels, no armor upgrade, closed cabin has no game effect but is just cosmetical.

What.

That's... stupid.

Yeah that'll suck. The only reason I field 2 of them is that the 12 front armour makes them vaguely survivable (can't be brought down by 2 glances from bolters at the front).

 DarthOvious wrote:
I like the way they assume that Marine players are not going to be falling over themselves for predators in the new edition, even though the codex has only been out for 2 weeks and not enough time has been spent to learn what lists work.

How old are the CSM and DA books again?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.

People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?

What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.

Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.

What I want is for the Vendetta to not be the most shooty, the most resilient and the cheapest all at once. Go look at the Tau, Eldar, or DA fliers and then try to justify the Vendetta costing 30-50 points less than those.

It's not the most resilient. Heldrakes are far more resilient. Night Scythes are more resilient in terms of passenger protection. It's also not the "most shooty". Both Heldrakes and Night Scythes have a weapon that is better suited to the current meta.

In an infantry-heavy meta, where hardly anybody takes mechanized armies, having 3 Lascannons really isn't that amazing. Vendettas are great for shooting down other fliers and stripping 1 or 2 wounds a turn off of a Riptide or Wraith Knight.

Finally, it's also not the cheapest. Night Scythes weigh in at ~30% fewer points and can be taken as Dedicated Transports.


0 for 3 on this one...

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


It's not the most resilient. Heldrakes are far more resilient. Night Scythes are more resilient in terms of passenger protection. It's also not the "most shooty". Both Heldrakes and Night Scythes have a weapon that is better suited to the current meta.

In an infantry-heavy meta, where hardly anybody takes mechanized armies, having 3 Lascannons really isn't that amazing. Vendettas are great for shooting down other fliers and stripping 1 or 2 wounds a turn off of a Riptide or Wraith Knight.

Finally, it's also not the cheapest. Night Scythes weigh in at ~30% fewer points and can be taken as Dedicated Transports.


0 for 3 on this one...

Disagree about the helldrake being the most resilient. Now the Helldrake is the best dog-fighter and is better at alpha striking than a lone vendetta and as such has an edge 1 on 1.....but then helldrakes can't be taken in squadrons. Remember, we are not just talking about single model comparisons but unit vs unit and as a unit the Vendetta is more durable.

As to fire power, hmmm, a squadron of vendettas can remove a riptide in one turn. Not easily but it can happen. This is what many fail to recognize. A vendetta squadron is like a Tau broadside team from the old codex. A single model while super cheap for what it does, is still only decent. Its when you stack 2-3 models worth of firepower that the unit becomes devastating. This is why the Vendetta is the shootiest.

On the last one, I completely agree, the necron flyer "is" way under costed and op. Still, just because one unit is undercosted and super cheap doesn't preclude the Valk/Vendettas from also being way undercosted/op. Also, remember that the Valk/Vendetta has better armour.

Later

Edit for corrections

Vendetta better than a heldrake? Not a frigging chance. It's still under-costed, and needs a nerf, but let's be honest here, the Heldrake has almost broken the game.

You have a model which is AV12, regenerates hull points, has a 5+ invuln so it never has to jink and thus snap fire, it can fire in a full 360 degree arc, has an AP3 torrent template, giving it enormous threat radius and ability to just outright remove most models in the game, can vector strike things for reliable damage and can activate an ability to re-roll failed wounds.

It outright ignores what weaknesses fliers has, is a hard counter to pretty much any infantry based army, and is very resilient against most AA weapons. The only thing it isn't good against is heavy vehicle lists; my armoured company couldn't care less about the flying turkeys, but how many armies bring 7+ AV 14/13/10(11) vehicles to the table?

The vendetta, on the other hand, is merely a very good flier; it's probably the best anti-flier flier (that's what I use mine for), and it's an effective transport with good firepower. It is, however, limited by its firing arc, low ballistic skill direct fire weapons (twin linked, admittedly), has poor volume of fire so it's only really effective against vehicles and high value T4 multi-wound models, and doing a wound or two to MCs. Horde armies don't care about it, deep strike armies don't care about it, MC armies don't care very much about them unless in large numbers, only flier spam armies and vehicle lists really have something to worry about it.

Hell, I know a guy locally who often brings 3 vendettas and 2 vultures, and they accomplish far less than 2-3 heldrakes, while representing a larger points investment.

The vendetta should still be more expensive; 160 at absolute minimum, probably 170-180, but that's it really. The Turkey, on the other hand, needs serious consideration and revision.

The vendetta was god when people's lists hadn't yet changed from 5th, and their transports were just getting blown to pieces across the table, but now with a greater focus on foot sloggers, deep striking or easier-to-get cover saves, and no outflanking (which is what really made that thing boss; 3 TL lascannons on side armour is death to most things), it really isn't king anymore.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Go look at the Tau, Eldar, or DA fliers and then try to justify the Vendetta costing 30-50 points less than those.

[ a bunch of stuff about Heldrakes and Night Scythes ]

0 for 3 on this one...

Uh-huh.

Larry Vela on Bell of Lost Souls wrote:
These rumors come to us in multiple sets, and we have ordered them from most trustworthy to least based on a variety of "truthifying methods":

The Probable stuff:
IG Veterans/Stormtroopers (plastic 5-man box)
Hydra
Artillery combo-kit
Roughriders (new plastic box)

The Possible stuff:
IG Regiment Doctrines: Each Regiment (Cadian, Catachan, etc...)has doctrines, similar to SM Chapter tactics. Examples listed were:
Cadians - may issue 2 orders to a unit
Catachans - Move-thru-cover, and Jungle Fighter (???)

Thunderbolt flyer: Very heavy armor, but cannot jink.

The Salt-mine
Imperial Robots - 2 new robots, requiring an Admech handler/enginseer.

Knight Paladin - Taller than riptide, not as tall as Wraithknight. Vanquisher cannon and Uber-chainsword are standard load out. May upgrade to Punisher Cannon, Uber-Fist with Inferno Flamers