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Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
Right now I only see a major problem with Codex: Orks - Costs.
Overall 6th ed. wasn't too harsh on Orks, but point costs have been dropping with every new codex release, so our main advantage and defining trait, the ability to spam low-quality, cheap units, is being slowly neutralized. Right now, only certain units (boyz, big guns...) retain an edge over the competition.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Aah yes, complaining about your new codex taking another 4 months.
I would almost feel sorry for you if I didn't play Blood Angels who have to wait for an entire year.
That's an entire year I have to sit in a corner and cry due to the new C:SM codex.
Kangodo wrote: Aah yes, complaining about your new codex taking another 4 months.
I would almost feel sorry for you if I didn't play Blood Angels who have to wait for an entire year.
That's an entire year I have to sit in a corner and cry due to the new C:SM codex.
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the Ork codex several years older than the BA codex? What, you would expect BA to get a codex first? I guess that'd be right up GW's alley, if the rumors about Nids being next are true.
Only two years.
Difference is that I haven't seen a single thread where people complain that the Orks aren't fun to play anymore.
Nor did Orks get a kick in the balls like "we" did with this new release.
Anyway: It's 4 months! Many people would sell their soul for that.
Kangodo wrote: Nor did Orks get a kick in the balls like "we" did with this new release.
We got kicked in the balls much more than you did, and it was when 6th edition hit the shelves. I can't believe how self-centered some people can be...
If you don't hear people complain it's because most Ork players don't give a rat's ass about winning or losing, or just play with Max Lootas.
Nym wrote: We got kicked in the balls much more than you did, and it was when 6th edition hit the shelves. I can't believe how self-centered some people can be...
Are you sure you want to voice that opinion in a thread that is about a guy complaining he has to wait 4 months for his codex?
Kangodo wrote: Nor did Orks get a kick in the balls like "we" did with this new release.
We got kicked in the balls much more than you did, and it was when 6th edition hit the shelves. I can't believe how self-centered some people can be...
If you don't hear people complain it's because most Ork players don't give a rat's ass about winning or losing, or just play with Max Lootas.
[irony intensifies]
Blood Angles took a massive hit. I literally have not seen them played once since 6th has rolled around.
Orks took a big hit too, but we at least had some units get better.
Both need an update guys, so chill. GW will do what it always does and randomly draw a name from a hat, and that lucky army will get a new codex
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Are they really that bad?
I play guard and my friend plays an ork horde in trukks and battlewagons. Then he just rush my lines and start hacking my poor guardsmen into pices!
And with the KFF i have a hard time stopping them before they reach my lines and charge on hes second turn.
Bödeln wrote: Are they really that bad?
I play guard and my friend plays an ork horde in trukks and battlewagons. Then he just rush my lines and start hacking my poor guardsmen into pices!
And with the KFF i have a hard time stopping them before they reach my lines and charge on hes second turn.
I'm sorry but I'm gonna say this bluntly, the problem is with your tactics or army makeup.. KFFs are objectively weaker this edition, vehicles are weaker this edition, close combat overall is weaker this edition.
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To be honest I am actually worried about a new Ork codex due to the very money-oriented/model-selling based rules they put out to promote their products and especially if the rumours are true about Matt Ward being our new codex author you can be sure he won't give a frak about how our book ends up either in terms of fluff (which he will inevitably dumb down or ruin with his own negative perception towards greenskins)
In all honesty, HOW!? The ork fluff is something that screams Ward! I mean he does over the top heroes and weird combinations, and that's just straight Orky, I mean we've got an ork Biker who rammed through a titans face, survived being on fire killed the crew and drove off. Orks are already above the standard when it comes to "How can it do that!" Levels.
deliberately make them underpowered ala Orcs and Goblins in 7th ed. where he explicitly said he didn't care much about Orcs/Gobbos and made them what he expected them to be in contrast to his 7th ed. Daemons book where he said "It'd be a shame if they weren't overpowered".
You've taken both the quotes and mangled them hard, it's still no worse then what the others do when it comes to UP/OP codex's.
The fact that you think Ork fluff is about wacky insanity shows how little you understand the nuances it has overall as a race. Yes it has some goofiness that reflects the cockney tomfoolery it was based on but it also displays how terribly alien they are in that their whole society is geared towards smacking other people's heads in with a hearty guffaw and the darker aspects of enslaving and brutalizing entire populations for the sake of slaughter being "fun" and instinctually bred into their entire race. In an ork context and perspective this is perfectly normal but in a human POV it is almost completely incomprehensible. Even Chaos has it's core selfish motivations beyond simple murder for kicks as Khorne fanatics wage war for multiple reasons such as for some twisted sense of martial honour, out of hatred for the Imperium or simply for Khorne's favour as their patron through skulls/blood and what not. The Imperium commits atrocities primarily based upon necessity and survival. Similarly, xenos species like the Eldar manipulate thousands of other species to die for a handful of Eldar lives to persist out of desperation to maintain what is left of their race and their inherent idea of their own superiority. The Orks have little to none of that motivation and it is base instinct similar to how the Tyranids are an gestalt mind bent only on feeding, the Orks are only bent on making war. It's not all about Orks shooting themselves into each other with rokkits 24/7 Michael Bay style which Ward is likely to misconstrue as.
Ward would also likely screw up with the idea of psychic resonance based upon the Ork's gestalt WAAAGH! field which many already misconceive as being "because Orks think it work, it does!". Ork tech and many other thing simply work better under Ork use than if it was utilized by another race because of this resonance. It's even shown in RPG's where Ork shootas are able to be used by non-Orks but they tend to jam much more often or aren't as functional if it were under the use of an Ork. As a result no this doesn't mean Orks can just grab a lead pipe and duct-tape some nails to it and all of a sudden it will shoot hot lead at the enemy. They have Meks for a reason.
Also disregard the quotes all you like but it doesn't spell well for the Orks. The fact that he even stated such things in a WD already shows his dislike towards the Orks unlike Necrons/Space Marines which he is clearly a fanboy of both (which coincides with the amount of effort he put into it when and how he wrote them, in contrast to the OnG army book) I don't expect it be balanced and I try to avoid a very optimized competitive viewpoint of Orks simply because that's not the reason I play them. It's the fluff and having fun and seeing as how Ward will likely screw up their playstyle according to his negative bias towards them fluffwise he at best will omit important info from the Ork background while at worst he will overemphasize only one aspect of the Orks like you have and likely lower them as a threat/viable faction while doing so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/07 22:25:28
People who keep whining about orksies YUU DUN PLAY DA WAY O' DA WAAAAAAAAAAAGH! GORK UND MORK DUN LIKE YUU!
NOO RISE FELLAH GITZ FER DA WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Waagh like a bawz
-
Kaptin Goldteef's waagh! 16250 points 45/18/3 (W/L/D) 7th Ed
Bödeln wrote: Are they really that bad?
I play guard and my friend plays an ork horde in trukks and battlewagons. Then he just rush my lines and start hacking my poor guardsmen into pices!
And with the KFF i have a hard time stopping them before they reach my lines and charge on hes second turn.
I'm sorry but I'm gonna say this bluntly, the problem is with your tactics or army makeup.. KFFs are objectively weaker this edition, vehicles are weaker this edition, close combat overall is weaker this edition.
You may be right. But the list he is using has worked well against a lot of other pkayers aswell.
Just lots of boys charging and enough dies to kill things.
Ugavine wrote: Grimskul, I sadly agree with everything in your post. I think the Ork Codex will get messed up.
The sad part is that I really REALLY don't want anything that I have said to come true and the main reason why I hold this pessimistic view towards our upcoming codex is because it will dampen the pain that comes if what I predict (or some version of it) does come true at some point. I really hope Phil Kelly gets another whack at it as an author and Ward as far away as possible but judging from the way GW has been going so far with their codices it's hard not to think that they'll screw up the Orks in some way or form. It'll either emphasize some new form of monstrous creature/flyer randomly thrown into the fluff (with colourful names such as "Not-Squiggoth" or "SlaughterKilly-Beast") or other must-have new unit no one asked for rather than updating some of the models that need it.
The good thing is that we can always choose to play our previous codex rather than the new should it come to that level of bad codex, there's also a bunch of wonderful fandexes on the WAAAGH! forum that are routinely updated and tweaked for various Klans and Freebootas; heck they even have one for Rebel Grotz.
Orks are still a good and viable army, even with an old dex.
Daemons got a nice new update, but it screwed over alot of units.
Mix that in with 6th and it pretty much killed them off.
++ saves lowered.
Toughness lowered.
Storm of chaos chart.
Power weapons going to AP3.
Overwatch.
All in all, not good.
But its the transition into 6th that caused alot of issues with older books.
marv335 wrote: Some of the Ork models are still from 2nd ed.
A very tiny number.
Almost all of the Sisters models are from 2nd edition. Including the basic troops.
Compared other armies like those mentioned before (including variant guard armies and the like), Orks have gotten decent updates.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/07 23:21:45
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The fact that you think Ork fluff is about wacky insanity shows how little you understand the nuances it has overall as a race.
I'll just quote the eldar on this, one of my favorite quotes actually..
The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.
It's not all about Orks shooting themselves into each other with rokkits 24/7 Michael Bay style which Ward is likely to misconstrue as.
So the Rokkit boyz don't exist? Of course though they are more of a military style organization, what with the rebellious youngin's rebelling against orky culture by trying to be all military about it.
Ward would also likely screw up with the idea of psychic resonance based upon the Ork's gestalt WAAAGH! field which many already misconceive as being "because Orks think it work, it does!". Ork tech and many other thing simply work better under Ork use than if it was utilized by another race because of this resonance. It's even shown in RPG's where Ork shootas are able to be used by non-Orks but they tend to jam much more often or aren't as functional if it were under the use of an Ork. As a result no this doesn't mean Orks can just grab a lead pipe and duct-tape some nails to it and all of a sudden it will shoot hot lead at the enemy. They have Meks for a reason.
You mean the one thing that has never been consistently agreed upon at all? The ork Gestalt field has been changed and checked through so many authors that it can be as wild as the Chaos Gods motivations. You've got reports of tech-priests finding guns that literally don't work at all and basically are just thrown together gears that aren't even connected, and don't work in their hands but will work in an ork that believe it does. Then you've got the ones that are built well enough that the Imperium says it can work, and it does but it works perfectly in the hands of an ork (like your example). Then you've got the one example where it was shown that ork technology is as functional as the Imperiums, but is alien in comparison to the works of the Machine spirit.
) I don't expect it be balanced and I try to avoid a very optimized competitive viewpoint of Orks simply because that's not the reason I play them. It's the fluff and having fun and seeing as how Ward will likely screw up their playstyle according to his negative bias towards them fluffwise he at best will omit important info from the Ork background while at worst he will overemphasize only one aspect of the Orks like you have and likely lower them as a threat/viable faction while doing so.
You could always just use the older fluff, I still see people using the old fluff for Beer squigs, Yellers. Also the fact of the matter is he hated Orcs and Goblins, not orks (not that I know of anyways)
Also I enjoy that you can construe my thoughts on orks from one post, I enjoy their fluff, but at the same time they've been from Serious Grimdark to Wacky Cockney Pub brawl. They are one of the few to swap places every so often and generally it's quite orky for them to move around as they feel like. Orks are Orks, they enjoy what they do.
To be honest, I just want those old Weirdboyz back from 'Ere we go rogue trader. They had extreme power! If extreme chance to explode themselves and anyone in their way.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/08 01:56:02
Jackal wrote: Orks are still a good and viable army, even with an old dex.
Daemons got a nice new update, but it screwed over alot of units.
Mix that in with 6th and it pretty much killed them off.
++ saves lowered.
Toughness lowered.
Storm of chaos chart.
Power weapons going to AP3.
Overwatch.
All in all, not good.
But its the transition into 6th that caused alot of issues with older books.
Not sure what codex you've been using, but overall Daemons are rocking out pretty well since the new book...
5++ isn't much of a nerf since it only affected Tzeentch, and we got a re-roll out of it so it's really more like a trade-off. (actually, that re-roll is silly good once you do buff yourself to a 4++ save, so honestly, Tzeentch got buffed!)
Sure some toughness values went down, but so did pts costs. More bodies makes up for being easier to wound. Bloodcrushers also gained 'true' cavalry status AND an additional wound.
The Warpstorm is fairly controllable. Bring Instruments to stop your own army from getting hit. Bring Kairos if you're really super paranoid about it, or else know that roughly 16% of your games will land you that same Warlord Trait.
If you think Warpstorm kills our army, please, go play it in Fantasy where without your FAQ handy, 9 of the 12 results screw you over!!!
Oh noes, Bloodletters are ruined!!! AP3 still makes MEQ's cry, and for 10pts you can get ap2 on your characters. Plus Slaanesh exists, and Greaters are still T6 making them some of the game's meanest combat beatsticks.
Overwatch is overrated... Orks for some reason are amazing at it though?! (go figure...) When it comes to Tau who are arguably the biggest worry, just make sure you're assaulting with multiple units when you make your main charge. (and with FMC's, Jugger/Steed Heralds, 'Crushers, Hounds, Beasts, Seekers, Fiends, Screamers & Furies, if you can't pull off more than 1 unit a turn charging, well, the codex isn't the problem)
Then there's what we gained;
- Rewards which may be random at first, but can be semi-tailored on the spot, have some brutal default options and are decently organised to ensure that if you want protection you can get it on the MC's. (ever seen what a T6 LoC with 4+ FnP & re-roll invulns can do - besides very horrible things to your opponent?!)
The Grimorie & Portalglyph are honestly complete steals for only 30pts.
- Psychic dominance. No spams Divination or Telepathy like we do, plus we have Biomancy too. Flickering Fire would honestly be downright broken if it weren't a psychic power! Lore of Nurgle isn't too shabby either.
- More HQ's, plus we kept Princes as Heavy choices after a fashion. Now we can run a Greater + upto 4 Heralds (who also provide some seriously ridiculous synergy with units)
It's be nice to see Orks get the kind of update we got honestly!
And if Kelly isn't on the job, then maybe Ork players can hold out hope for Vetock to give them some love, since he did a pretty good job overall with the Fantasy O&G's. (only the Magic Items section really blows chunks)
ZebioLizard2 wrote: You could always just use the older fluff, I still see people using the old fluff for Beer squigs, Yellers.
Indeed, these things haven't been retconnect out of existence-- they just aren't emphasized as much anymore.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Psienesis wrote: <snip> Of course, Dark Eldar historically had this same problem, and then a new line of models was introduced with an updated Codex, and they are now a popular Xeno army.
They are now one of the most expensive armies to collect and build, with limited choices in models, few effective builds, and few options for truly customizing the army to make it your own, while our other power armored choices offer a range of options, units, and playstyles, depending on which Codex you want to go with and which flavor of Space Marine you choose to play. With the fluff including so many mentions of Orders Minor, this level of variety should be available to the Sisters, but it isn't, and the loss of its Inquisitorial ties has only further limited its viability on the tabletop, apart from a very few specific builds.
Thanks for elaborating as requested.
Some of the cynicism looks like it stems from being a fan and SOB being ignored for so long.
As you had pointed out (which I had thought the same), some armies when dusted off see a new lease on life so it is only waiting for GW management to see this potential.
There is hope that with the precedence of taking "dog" armies and updating them to profitability they may be looking around for more.
The range of models are sufficiently old that I figure the artists would have more free-reign than normal.
I might be reading too much into this but separating them from the Inquisition would make it easier to make them a specific codex and not invalidate another.
I do not think they will be WD or PDF since GW management has made a point of giving very little out for free so whatever way they will get published it will be in a codex of their own or rolled into another (looking less likely but possible).
This was what I was thinking since they have little choice in getting rid of them so updating them is the only option, it is just a matter of when.
Good thoughts but it is maddening to be the last army to get an update before a rules change and this may be the case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/08 18:48:34
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: You could always just use the older fluff, I still see people using the old fluff for Beer squigs, Yellers.
Indeed, these things haven't been retconnect out of existence-- they just aren't emphasized as much anymore.
I suppose, there haven't had a huge retcon for orks in most cases, I think the only thing that's probably gone is the Goff 'Eadbangers (The Guitar wielding orks)
Though it makes me wonder if the Hair Squigs are still there then.
But yeah, Ork fluff to me is one of the most flexible, on one side you've got the Cartoony galaxywide pub brawl, which to orks is what it looks like, I mean to them it's a fun romp through space in most cases (Cept the Goffs, but they is all serious anyways).
And then you've got the darker aspects, Space Marine played it up as to what everyone else see's from the Orks. Ruthless, barbaric monsters that invade and kill for fun all the while destroying things that they feel like.
You can play them on either end and it'd still be pretty Orky.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/08 21:13:30
Kangodo wrote: Aah yes, complaining about your new codex taking another 4 months.
I would almost feel sorry for you if I didn't play Blood Angels who have to wait for an entire year.
That's an entire year I have to sit in a corner and cry due to the new C:SM codex.
Couldn't you just, you know, play the new C:SM Codex? And then ally in some Death Company or something? I mean, all the other Chapters used to "Counts As" the Blood Angels all the time. I mean, Orks have one Codex to use. Spess Mahreens have four. If Codex: Blood Angels sucks so bad, well, there are a lot of other flavors you can use to have mediocre 6th Edition Power Armor.
Besides, Blood Angels are lame, and Orks are awesome. That alone is reason enough for them to see an update sooner.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/08 23:30:55
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Orks cannot even shoot decently, that's superlame! Stupid green-skins.
But that is exactly what I will do; My Blood Angels are mostly black, so they will play as Raven Guard and some day even as UM-successor if I get my hands on 8 Droppods.
My comments was just there to tell him he shouldn't QQ so much.
Many players would be happy with "those long 4 months".
Ugavine wrote: Grimskul, I sadly agree with everything in your post. I think the Ork Codex will get messed up.
The sad part is that I really REALLY don't want anything that I have said to come true and the main reason why I hold this pessimistic view towards our upcoming codex is because it will dampen the pain that comes if what I predict (or some version of it) does come true at some point. I really hope Phil Kelly gets another whack at it as an author and Ward as far away as possible but judging from the way GW has been going so far with their codices it's hard not to think that they'll screw up the Orks in some way or form. It'll either emphasize some new form of monstrous creature/flyer randomly thrown into the fluff (with colourful names such as "Not-Squiggoth" or "SlaughterKilly-Beast") or other must-have new unit no one asked for rather than updating some of the models that need it.
The good thing is that we can always choose to play our previous codex rather than the new should it come to that level of bad codex, there's also a bunch of wonderful fandexes on the WAAAGH! forum that are routinely updated and tweaked for various Klans and Freebootas; heck they even have one for Rebel Grotz.
I don't think ward is as bad as people say. Sure the fluff is kinda silly but rules from ward are pretty nice. Kelly on the other hand wrote dark eldar dex which like 1 competitive build (spam venoms and raiders) and csm dex which imo is so bad that I'd rather stick to 4th ed dex (without faq ups). Even the current ork dex is a bit bland.
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
I don't think ward is as bad as people say. Sure the fluff is kinda silly but rules from ward are pretty nice. Kelly on the other hand wrote dark eldar dex which like 1 competitive build (spam venoms and raiders) and csm dex which imo is so bad that I'd rather stick to 4th ed dex (without faq ups). Even the current ork dex is a bit bland.
Dark Eldar had multiple competitive builds before 6th. 6th has greatly diminished them, just as it did with orks.
Ward writes, from what I've seen, a more obvious codex than Kelly, the immediate must haves and powerful combos should be more readily seen. I'm hoping he's learning about fluff writing or that the design team is and they start bringing in talent from the previous designers/black library writers to team up with the rules dudez. Still, orks is perhaps the best venue for overblown wackiness in the 40k universe.
Kangodo wrote:Aah yes, complaining about your new codex taking another 4 months.
I would almost feel sorry for you if I didn't play Blood Angels who have to wait for an entire year.
That's an entire year I have to sit in a corner and cry due to the new C:SM codex.
You're funny. Another spoiled MEQ player grumbling. Do what half the others do and respray your army/just tell your opponent you're using a different codex.
Melissia wrote:
marv335 wrote: Some of the Ork models are still from 2nd ed.
A very tiny number.
Almost all of the Sisters models are from 2nd edition. Including the basic troops.
Compared other armies like those mentioned before (including variant guard armies and the like), Orks have gotten decent updates.
We've been expecting you... I might suggest with GW's current fixation with crazy over the top minis that you count your blessings for the time being, or you might end up with a giant 'megamaid' style walkers for a redone sisters army...
Orks enjoyed a very decent update, model wise, and we're enjoying certain Polish and other attentions for our models, it's a great army for modelling and converting enthusiasts.
Of course not. They'd have to actually produce a new miniature for Sisters for that to happen, and they aren't going to do that any time in the next few years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/09 11:36:34
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
16250 points 45/18/3 (W/L/D) 7th Ed
6250 points 9/3/1 (W/L/D) sixth-ed
3400 points 19/6/0 (W/L/D) 8' armybook
