HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition - Crowdfunding Shutdown yet again.

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**Cyporiean**

judgedoug wrote:

I believe using Canada is dual-purpose - no legal challenge of the trademark in Canada, plus bypassing Amazon Payments. Canadian funding is your credit card; so companies don't get double-charged from Kickstarter and then from Amazon for pledges. I'd honestly do the same and only lose 3-4% instead of 5-8% or whatever it is.

Incorrect.

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/fees?country=CA

Kickstarter fee
5% of total funds raised
Payment processing fees
3% + $0.20 CAD per pledge

Pledges under $10 have a discounted micropledge fee
of 5% + $0.05 CAD per pledge.

**DaveC**

They are doing a Youtube Q&A at the moment but it's in Spanish someone is going to translate it later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RQkJpla3PU

A few backers in the comments are translating below is just a reprint of what they have reported back.

On shipping they are going to do a new calculator shipping is based on the weight of the product and comes straight from the Spanish postal service. So the more stretch goals get added the heavier the box the more shipping costs. Shipping needs to be added to pledge before the end based on the calculator. They are trying to get the shipping costs down but will be charging actual shipping costs to each destination. Any shortfall will be collected later. If for any reason you over pay shipping they will give a voucher for the difference that can be used in their online store. If the currency value fluctuates between now and shipping meaning you might have under paid shipping they will cover it - they are taking the risk on the currency conversion side - not backers.

**Catyrpelius**

judgedoug wrote:
Catyrpelius wrote:

The trademark isn't dead in the US, it's just not regestered to Hasbro...

Registration Number 4082281, (REGISTRANT) Stafford, Francis Gregory

This is why Gamezone isn't running the campaign in the far more common currencies of USD or British Pounds. It's also why they aren't using exsisting distributers to drastically lower shipping costs.

Yup, Greg Stafford swooped in and grabbed it ~2002 in the USA when Hasbro and GW let it lapse (IIRC, Heroquest was the original titles for his Glorantha stuff in the early 80's, but Hasbro trademarked it first - I could be mistaken on this part)
In Spain, however, Gamezone very definitely owns the trademark.

I believe using Canada is dual-purpose - no legal challenge of the trademark in Canada, plus bypassing Amazon Payments. Canadian funding is your credit card; so companies don't get double-charged from Kickstarter and then from Amazon for pledges. I'd honestly do the same and only lose 3-4% instead of 5-8% or whatever it is.

In general projects that run in USD tend to fund higher. I personally also only tend to fund projects in USD's because going through a company outside the US for CC processing plays havok with my CCs. Additionaly, according to my CC company, when I post a charge on my credit card thats outside the USA I loose some of the protection thats built into my account. They say it's much harder for them to reverse a charge outside the USA.

Canada is the only country that Kickstarter operates from where the Heroquest trademark isn't either owned by someone other then Gamezone or Dead...

Importing is another shaky area... Importing the game in Spain and Canada isn't a problem. However importing the game into a country that has a living trademark on Heroquest that isn't owned by Gamezone could be a potential problem. While it's unlikely that any goverments customs system is going to seize your personal shipment of Heroquest due to the logisitics and relativly small amount involved, it's much more likely that they would seize and return a container full of Heroquest.

Gamezone isn't a large company, they don't have millions of $ of sales every year. They don't have acess to large cash reserves, teams of lawyers or large lines of credit. Realistically all it would take is Hasbro taking this to court and just letting it sit there with the KS money in escrow. In the end Gamezone might win, and a judge might even order Hasbro to reimberese Gamezone, but I doubt that Gamezone would be able to continue fufillment or development with all the KS money tied up. At the best it would delay the project a year or so, at worst it could destroy the project.

Basically what I've been trying to get across is that, for me atleast, the potential rewards don't outway the likelyhood of the potential consiquences.

To date I've backed 122 projects on kickstarter. I've only had one thats failed to delivere.

**DaveC**

On Stretch goals they have more than 50 ready to go they are trying to tell a story with the SG graphic they will build into fully fledged expansions in their own right once all the pieces are put together which is why they seem a bit all over the place right now. Stretch goals will drop in size as funding slows down so the $33k stretches won't continue.

They have apparently contacted Hasbro about getting distribution rights in those territories where Hasbro still hold the rights. Hasbro haven't committed to anything they think they are waiting to see how it does before they get an answer. That doesn't affect their ability to ship the game direct from Spain to backers worldwide it just means they could put it in shops in other countries if they get the distribution rights worldwide.

**nkelsch**

DaveC wrote:
On Stretch goals they have more than 50 ready to go they are trying to tell a story with the SG graphic they will build into fully fledged expansions in their own right once all the pieces are put together which is why they seem a bit all over the place right now. Stretch goals will drop in size as funding slows down so the $33k stretches won't continue.

Personally, I want a crap-ton of quests. Heroquest was great, but once you ran through the 24 or so quests, you kinda lose some replay value. So a much much larger quest bank or even a system for 'random quest' would be awesome.

I am kinda excited for a lot of the stuff the fan community started to be adopted in this.

**DaveC**

Well there will be 50 in the main game plus however many they do for the expansion stuff (Quest book 2) plus they have said (in the interview) that all the old quests are fully compatible with the new version.

more from interview extra monsters will be available as add ons - there will be add ons in this KS. The extra room tiles will all be double sided and apparently they are looking to do a modular board system as well but probably after KS (in addition to the classic board). There will be a Dragon miniature for use on the outdoor side of the board (maybe after KS) and other bigger monsters.

They are looking into an app to track things so you don't need character sheets and pencils it may include a quest creator.

**Culldarinal**

Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

**Riquende**

Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

So... you've ruined it for everybody?

I've decided to skip this, there's just too much murkiness surrounding it. If it ever sees the light of day then I'd be interested.

**nkelsch**

Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

**choasdwarflord**

nkelsch wrote:
Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

Like they would not have found out about it. Better now than later before the money changes hand.

**Da Boss**

Heroquest was my introduction to fantasy gaming and the idea of a "dungeon", so I am really interested in this! I am a bit wary about it until the legal issues are completely cleared up. But at least being here in Germany, my shipping costs probably won't be very high.

**Forar**

Catyrpelius wrote:
To date I've backed 122 projects on kickstarter.

... O.o

Man, and here I thought *I* had a problem.

Do... do you need to back a project just to get up in the morning? This is a safe place, you can tell us.

**squall018**

nkelsch wrote:
Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

Yeah, I think it would be better to go ahead and find out now. I'm interested to hear what they say after they're done "looking into it".

**Forar**

choasdwarflord wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

Like they would not have found out about it. Better now than later before the money changes hand.

I don't imagine it'll make a difference.

Well, for 31 more days.

The cynical view would be that the most damage would be done for whomever might have a frivolous claim to wait until the campaign is over to start up proceedings.

With the extra bonus of knowing exactly how much cash they should be getting (minus KS fees and people who fail to pay their pledged amount).

Note: I don't actually think this is a terrifyingly murky place. I'm just saying, if someone had even a tenuous grasp of a case and wanted to mess with the campaign, they might as well keep quiet until it's over.

Edit: of course, I am not a lawyer, and I'm not sure what the laws are in place across these 4+ jurisdictions regarding protecting Intellectual Property and how much due diligence needs to be shown; ie: would it hurt their case to know about the project and sit on their hands for a month and change? That's for actual lawyers to decide. I do hope they've at least spoken to one such lawyer.

**Pacific**

judgedoug wrote:
Alpharius wrote:

Wait - are you a lawyer?

And if yes, or even no, are you able to see into...The Future?

Sorry, I must be misunderstanding.

Gamezone owns HeroQuest in Spain - not up for argument, the Spanish trademark office shows it.
Both Hasbro and Games Workshop do not own the trademark for HeroQuest in Canada (expunged), or even in the USA (status being Dead), both confirmed by the respective country's trademark and patent offices.

I kind of understand Alphy's point.. did you know that someone having a Heroquest tattoo on their left buttock automatically extends trademarks for 10 years? Neither did I.. but that's exactly the kind of random legal point that, while completely incomprehensible and nonsensical to the rest of us, a lawyer would know about!

There is still the possibility of some *expletive* being a *expletive* and sinking the project. From what others have said I think it's probably unlikely, and I hope to the gods that it won't happen, but it would be nice if one of the chaps from the Chapterhouse thread could post something more definitive.

Culldarinal wrote:Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

If this were the Beasts of War forum, I think you would have a rating right now that you might never recover from

**judgedoug**

Cyporiean wrote:
judgedoug wrote:

I believe using Canada is dual-purpose - no legal challenge of the trademark in Canada, plus bypassing Amazon Payments. Canadian funding is your credit card; so companies don't get double-charged from Kickstarter and then from Amazon for pledges. I'd honestly do the same and only lose 3-4% instead of 5-8% or whatever it is.

Incorrect.

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/fees?country=CA

Kickstarter fee
5% of total funds raised
Payment processing fees
3% + $0.20 CAD per pledge

Pledges under $10 have a discounted micropledge fee
of 5% + $0.05 CAD per pledge.

Woops! You're right! My mistake.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

squall018 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

Yeah, I think it would be better to go ahead and find out now. I'm interested to hear what they say after they're done "looking into it".

Hasbro UK person 1 : "Someone in Spain is using the HeroQuest trademark"
Hasbro UK person 2 : "What is a 'HeroQuest' ?"
Hasbro UK person 1: "Some game we made back in the late 1980's."
Hasbro UK person 2: "Huh. Okay, well do we still own the trademark?"
Hasbro UK person 1: "No. That company in Spain now owns it."
Hasbro UK person 2: "Alright. Hey check out this great animated gif of a cat doing a back flip"

**Alpharius**

That's certainly one interpretation of how things might possibly go.

Anyway, this one's in the odd position of being more expensive the more successful it is!

**Azazelx**

choasdwarflord wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.

Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

Like they would not have found out about it. Better now than later before the money changes hand.

This.

**judgedoug**

Azazelx wrote:
choasdwarflord wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.

Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

Like they would not have found out about it. Better now than later before the money changes hand.

This.

I would agree if they hadn't already registered the HeroQuest trademark in Spain, where they're based...

**Azazelx**

Nope. Better that they find out now than in 6 months regardless.

My only problems are with the shipping that's clearly going to be a nightmare and the unfriendly timing.

**TheAuldGrump**

'So, uh, you know that somebody in Spain is doing a Heroquest Kickstarter?'
'Whassa matter, mate? GW's lines busy?'

Seriously... Spanish copyright has nothing to do with what goes on in the UK.

UK copyright law has nothing to do with what goes on in Spain.

The iffiness, if any, will not matter until the product is being sold in the UK - as Gamezone has already stated.

Remember, contrary to popular belief, Kickstarter is not a storefront.

You are not making a purchase, you are investing in the company towards a specific goal - which just happens to end up with you holding the product in hand as reimbursement for your investment.

(If you think that sounds strange, technically when you buy a ticket to a movie you are not paying to see a movie, you just happen to be renting the seat while a movie just happens to be showing....)

Rules cannot be copyrighted in either the US, Spain, or the UK - so long as the same rules are being written with new text... no law is broken in any of those countries.

HeroQuest is a trademark that has been allowed to lapse - Issaries would have a better argument than Hasbro UK.

So... not a consideration.

At least until they try to sell it on Highstreet.

The Auld Grump

**Bioptic**

Alpharius wrote:
That's certainly one interpretation of how things might possibly go.

Anyway, this one's in the odd position of being more expensive the more successful it is!

Reaper Bones II was as well - ended up being over $50 to the UK for a $100 pledge! Of course, their manifesto for the KS was "you are buying a heavy box filled with PVC". I can well believe they wanted to cover the cost of shipping a Tarrasque or that diorama-that-is-a-full-set-of-solid-plastic-ruins-with-a-giant-dragon-on-top, but I do think it ended up hurting things. Not least because 50% of the pledges from international backers went straight on shipping rather than tooling costs, despite unlocking stretch goals.

I feel that I have the luxury of time with this one - will have a clearer picture in a fortnight.

**silent25**

Via BGG. Some translated comments from the interview:

Regarding the game;

- New HQ will be compatible with the old one and 28-30 mm fantasy miniatures. Probably there will not be any re-edition of the old adventures (as you can get it anywhere...yeoldein)

- Morkar and Zargon will have miniatures! They are agents of a superior entity.

- The core box will include expansions, and a hole campaign

- New Heroquest is Fully compatible with the old One, you can play the old manual campaigns using the new board and miniatures

- Dionisio says the basic price is quite tight, it is even too low for commercial purpose

- The size of each cell: a little bit bigger than in the old one, so that you can move better the miniatures

- The bases are transparent, and you will be able to glue the miniatures as you want

- There will be characters in the Hero Expansion with their own spells

- About the sarcophagus insert and the spirit steel; "You will get wonderful surprises, I am a fan!" "we will not send anything that you cannot use, we know how to make games"

- They are working in a experience/leveling up system which don't need pencil and paper

- They are accepting personal mods for HQ, they will study them and get an agreement to use it.

- All templates, all rooms, and all the maps are double-sided (they are printed on both sides)

- They are trying to transform the heroes card into a card where you can write and clean.

- There are some alpha rules but we will not publish them until people from around the world check them (they name quite a few countries) to make beta rules to be tested by the community.

- There are going to be different editions: Foundation edition, numbered and with backers names on it, with the foundation logo. In XMas 2014, there will be the 25th Anniversary boxes. Once they are finished, they are gone.

- No walls. But they are going to try something good intermediate between walls and a flat board

- They are probably going to include female enemies. Maybe the boss of Morcar and Zargon is a female being...

- There are going to sell metal coins, but they are not going to be add-ons. Gamezone are metal and resin producers.

- They want to try up to 6 players for Beta version

- The core box is going to bring dividers or small coffers, so that everything is well kept. They are passionate about keeping things properly, and with cool things!

Regarding the campaign and stretch goals;

- The rolling stone: is almost twice the size of the barbarian, We'll include one smashed corpse or any helmet there. It is part of a giant rock trap.

- It will be "revealed" that Zargon and Morcar are only agents of a higher and darkest being...

- We only saw the 10% of the SG

- They told that the SG's are going to be an exclusive expansion

- There are more than 50 SG prepared and you can guess the next SG in the secrets image

- They can change mind on not showing the SG if it is very impopular

- The original idea for the SG wasn't using images, but as a story unveiled more and more with each goal achieved.

- As the kickstarter progress, the goals will be at lower amounts (less than 33k CAD) which is unusual... But they want to do it so you keep getting things even if the kickstarter slows down.

- There will be add ons with extra monsters

- SG are meant to add flavour and to use them in future expansion, but you do not really need them to enjoy the core game

- The 50 quest are in basic. all SG are part of Book Quest 2.

- Pledge will be changed and included news perks.

- There's a SG that reveals the old boardgame.

- During the morning, they are working in the creative part of the project, because there is work to do in the creative part. But in the evening and the night, they work for the KS.

- Question: Painted miniatures as addon? Response: probably not, but in their website they will link pages with tutorials or people who want to hire their services.

Regarding the copyrights;

- They can't put the boxes in the shops of foreign countries, but they can sell it worldwide and send it legally.

- Hasbro is probably waiting for the success of the campaign to be interested in" (They keep saying they are in contact with Hasbro).

Regarding shipping costs;

- Shipping costs: "We have to reduce them".

- they just don't want to make profit nor loose money from shipping, the calculator will take the weight and calculate it (no fixed cost for each box, but for each pound). The cost are from spanish postal service, they are trying to reduce them

- If they improve the shipping costs and you've already paid the shipping costs they will reimburse you the difference as a voucher in their shop.

- They have their webmaster working at full throttle to improve/redesing the shipping calculator.

Regarding the future of the game;

- There will be a big surprise by next christmas related with modular boards.

- Big monster for exterior Maps, we must fit a dragon.

- Exterior ruins will lead to dungeons.

- App for smartphones, tablets.

- If the game is successful, they would like to make modular furniture in the future.

- Solo-play would be possible via expansion.

- There are going to be future expansions, and maybe one of them will transform HQ into a more complicated game.
And afterwards, the game is going to be called "Heroquest Classic".

Last message form Dionisio: "Keep calm and Heroquest".

Looking into the comments, they likely have the green light from Hasbro's Spanish branch as they have been saying, but not elsewhere. If they had Hasbro UK's blessing, there may have been talk of distribution in the UK.

**Culldarinal**

choasdwarflord wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Culldarinal wrote:
Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

Like they would not have found out about it. Better now than later before the money changes hand.

That's pretty much what I thought.
There are some undoubtedly dodgy things about this one, starting with the use of that tv ad (rights owned by hasbro uk) for commercial purposes, so definitely not covered by fair use.

nkelsch wrote:Snitch to GW as well while you are at it. They may want to attempt to own Black Orc or something.

If I really wanted this to fail, I would as I'd be surprised if they don't own the trademark on Morkar, (1st everchosen of chaos) and tried to claim infringement due to the use of their orignial way of spelling it as used in heroquest : Morcar.

**Herzlos**

Pacific wrote:

Culldarinal wrote:Out of interest, I contacted Hasbro UK, to see if they're aware of the project.
Their response was that they;re looking into it.
So ...

If this were the Beasts of War forum, I think you would have a rating right now that you might never recover from

That was my initial thought, but then I realised that Hasbro will become aware of it at some point, and I'd rather they looked into it before my $150 is taken than after.

Though they appear to already be in discussion (with Hasbro Spain, at least), so hopefully they'll come to some deal, and then I'll go nuts

**Erasoketa**

The difference between having an agreement with Hasbro or not having it, is not wether GZ will be able to do the game or not. They have the brand in Spain, they're making it in Spain, and they'll sell it in Spain. It will be sold worldwide only through online stores. If Hasbro is smart about it and get an agreement, GZ would pay royalties to them so that the game could be normally distributed wherever Hasbro has the rights. Hasbro would only have to take the money. Dionisio said in the video that he's very willing to pay that royalties if it helps to have a better distribution of the game.

**Kroothawk**

judgedoug wrote:
Hasbro UK person 1 : "Someone in Spain is using the HeroQuest trademark"
Hasbro UK person 2 : "What is a 'HeroQuest' ?"
Hasbro UK person 1: "Some game we made back in the late 1980's."
Hasbro UK person 2: "Huh. Okay, well do we still own the trademark?"
Hasbro UK person 1: "No. That company in Spain now owns it."
Hasbro UK person 2: "Alright. Hey check out this great animated gif of a cat doing a back flip"

GW person 1 : "Someone in Spain is using the HeroQuest trademark"
GW person 2 : "What is a 'HeroQuest' ?"
GW person 1: "Some game we made back in the late 1980's."
GW person 2: "Sue the crap out of them, file it 22nd December!"
GW person 1: "Huh. Okay, well do we still own the trademark?"
GW person 2: "You must be new here. We don't care about those things until the lawsuit is almost over."

**Absolutionis**

Relevant news from an anonymous source:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2013/11/28/81513/

HeroQuest has been doing rather well over on Kickstarter for Gamezone.
Though questions have arisen about whether or not they have the license to print the game.
An anonymous source close to TGN has said that, as of yet, Gamezone does not, in fact, have the license.
At time of posting, Gamezone has not replied to an e-mail from us asking about the matter.

I know TGN doesn’t generally do such news posts, but I wanted to pass this one along, as my source is rather reliable on such matters. Gamezone recently posted up a long video answering a lot of questions about the game, but this question in-particular has been somewhat deflected or not directly answered on several occasions.

Stay tuned for further developments.

Seems like non-news, but makes everything look somewhat shady.

**Erasoketa**

What license? "An anoymous source" has quite a low value after all the times GZ have been dealing with the same question.

**decker_cky**

Absolutionis wrote:
Relevant news from an anonymous source:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2013/11/28/81513/

HeroQuest has been doing rather well over on Kickstarter for Gamezone.
Though questions have arisen about whether or not they have the license to print the game.
An anonymous source close to TGN has said that, as of yet, Gamezone does not, in fact, have the license.
At time of posting, Gamezone has not replied to an e-mail from us asking about the matter.

I know TGN doesn’t generally do such news posts, but I wanted to pass this one along, as my source is rather reliable on such matters. Gamezone recently posted up a long video answering a lot of questions about the game, but this question in-particular has been somewhat deflected or not directly answered on several occasions.

Stay tuned for further developments.

Seems like non-news, but makes everything look somewhat shady.

Seems like irresponsible journalism, since it paints a relative non-issue as a key issue from a position of authority.