Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/11/30 20:47:56
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Ha, I know nothing of the RPG or setting other than the name. I stopped playing RPGs after AD&D 2e, but assumed it's been around long enough that it must be good.
2013/11/30 23:34:35
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
We would like to inform you all about the present situation, after the pause of our Kickstarter project by Moon Design P. during the thanksgiving holiday, which is an administrative petition within Kickstarter.
Yesterday, Friday, at the start of the day, U.S. east coast time, we sent a letter to Kickstarter, LINK invoking our legitimate trademark rights so they would deactivate the pause and let us progress in the fund raising campaign. We are waiting for Kickstarter’s reply on this matter.
Simultaneously we, Gamezone and Moon Design P., had a reunion to discuss this issue face to face as and not email exchange as was what was happening up till now.
Moon Design P. solicited the pause in Kickstarter because of fear that Hasbro could act against Gamezone in our crowed funding because we are using an American company on American soil. Their argument was that Hasbro could act against them as well for not impeding us in this project. Even thought they are not in any way included in this project or affiliated with it.
If Kickstarter does not reactivate the pause taking into account our letter ( indicated above in the link), then it can only be reactivated if Moon Design P. asks them to. For Moon Design P. to do so they are asking for two things: An official letter from Hasbro in which it states that they, Hasbro, will neither act against our HQ25th nor Moon Design P. They, Moon Design P., have also demanded a considerable sum and percentages from the Kickstarter project.
If we wait for Hasbro to make a declaration, which we can solicit, weeks or even months could pass. With that our production and creation calendar would be severely affected, as not having the funding to continue the campaign.
If the Campaign does not restart soon, the HQ25th will not be ready for Christmas 2014. It will not be ready to celebrate its anniversary.
There exist 3 possible solutions to this conundrum.
1. Kickstarter reactivates the project attending to our petition
2. Wait for Hasbro to declare that they are not against this crowed funding campaign of HQ25th en Kickstarter (an American Company).
3. Immediately move the crowed funning to a platform within Europe, where no risks of legal repercussions exist.
Option one; we can only wait, we cannot be sure that Kickstarter will lift the pause. We cannot influence their decision any more than we have already.
Option two; Hasbro is not obligated to do anything at all.
Option three; here there is no risk, except of course we will raise less funds, no other platform out there at this moment has the same public pull as Kickstarter.
Why are we telling you this? As our backers, what would you like us to do?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And link to the letter they sent kickstarter -
So.. they are saying that Hasbro could potentially bring some kind of action against Moon, for Moon not.. bringing some kind of action against Gamezone?
On the basis that Kickstarter itself is US based?
Certainly sounds a bit odd! Where are some of the guys from that Chapterhouse thread when you need them!?
If Kickstarter does not reactivate the pause taking into account our letter ( indicated above in the link), then it can only be reactivated if Moon Design P. asks them to. For Moon Design P. to do so they are asking for two things: An official letter from Hasbro in which it states that they, Hasbro, will neither act against our HQ25th nor Moon Design P. They, Moon Design P., have also demanded a considerable sum and percentages from the Kickstarter project.
The first condition I can sort of understand. Sort of, because Hasbro doesn't own the Trademark anymore, but still probably holds the Copyrights (which may or may not actually be an issue).
The second condition smacks of Patent Trolling-like behaviour and pretty much ensures that I personally will never purchase anything this company puts out. Scumbag behaviour in the extreme, in my opinion.
I can't imagine Hasbro issuing a blanket statement promising not to act against the KS (and especially Moon Design),
and if they did write a very narrow specific statement I bet Moon design would still not think it was good enough
not even counting their demand for a royalty and a % of the KS (do Gamezones calculations have enough 'spare' cash in to allow this even if they were prepared to agree to it?)
If they did move to Indiegogo (presumably what they are referring too) it would have a much lower uptake,
and probably be too much of a risk for US backers as Moon design would no doubt keep a close eye on it and prod customs when stuff was shipping (out of fear of Hasbro if nothing else if their statement is on the level)
so really the only chance of this staying big is KS taking a brave stand and turning it back on (and even then Moon design might feel they had to try and go to real court over it)
2013/12/01 00:10:52
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Aye, so either Gamezone are not as sure as they claim to be, or Moon Design is spiking the well with a request they know will cripple the Kickstarter anyways, so not as open to talks as Gamezone where suggesting.
Not sure I'd back an indiegogo version of it though.
edit - oh and aye, agree with Taarnak, I'd stay clear of anything Moon brings out based on this situation as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 00:12:14
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
2013/12/01 00:13:16
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Yeah I think at this stage it's kickstarter or bust. They could go to Indiegogo but they will get a fraction of the backing as people will see that they've already lost the KS campaign due to doubts guess this is going to carry on into next week at least.
Personally much as I want a HeroQuest remake I won't back it on Indiegogo if they lose the KS I'll wait for retail to be sure even if that means losing out on any extras better than losing the pledge in total.
No way Hasbro is going to commit to anything one way or another it's not in their interests to.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/01 00:17:24
2013/12/01 00:26:27
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Moondesign are a scumbags and their attitude is full of crap claiming they need royalties to protect themselves from an uninterested Hasbro, just in case.
I will gladly pay more for the hassle of a euro-crowd funding to make sure moon design never sees a fething dime. I am fine with deals being reached with hasbro but to hell with moon design.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2013/12/01 00:42:09
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
I don't get it. I thought Gamezone was a-ok with Hasbro on this whole kickstarter. This keeps getting weirder and weirder.
Question is how much is Moon Design asking for. It was pointed out earlier on, Hasbro has a flat fee of $20,000 to use one of their Licenses. If Moon Design is asking for the same amount, is that "considerable"?
2013/12/01 00:42:45
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Alpharius wrote: It sure looks as if Gamezone thinks Hasbro could do....something?
Huh? It looks like Moon Designs thinks Hasbro could do something. Gamezone is only looking for a written letter to assuage Moons Designs concerns (at least that's what the message says).
2013/12/01 00:49:54
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: Aye, so either Gamezone are not as sure as they claim to be, or Moon Design is spiking the well with a request they know will cripple the Kickstarter anyways, so not as open to talks as Gamezone where suggesting.
Not sure I'd back an indiegogo version of it though.
edit - oh and aye, agree with Taarnak, I'd stay clear of anything Moon brings out based on this situation as well.
silent25 wrote: I don't get it. I thought Gamezone was a-ok with Hasbro on this whole kickstarter. This keeps getting weirder and weirder.
Question is how much is Moon Design asking for. It was pointed out earlier on, Hasbro has a flat fee of $20,000 to use one of their Licenses. If Moon Design is asking for the same amount, is that "considerable"?
I would assume Hasbro licenses include the right to duplicate rules (eg, copyright as well as the trademark), and includes worldwide licensing from what I understand. $20,000 for the trademark alone, which arguably isn't needed, is a considerable amount comparatively at least.
2013/12/01 00:54:10
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Alpharius wrote: It sure looks as if Gamezone thinks Hasbro could do....something?
Huh? It looks like Moon Designs thinks Hasbro could do something. Gamezone is only looking for a written letter to assuage Moons Designs concerns (at least that's what the message says).
Huh?
There exist 3 possible solutions to this conundrum.
1. Kickstarter reactivates the project attending to our petition
2. Wait for Hasbro to declare that they are not against this crowed funding campaign of HQ25th en Kickstarter (an American Company).
3. Immediately move the crowed funning to a platform within Europe, where no risks of legal repercussions exist.
Option one; we can only wait, we cannot be sure that Kickstarter will lift the pause. We cannot influence their decision any more than we have already.
Option two; Hasbro is not obligated to do anything at all.
Option three; here there is no risk, except of course we will raise less funds, no other platform out there at this moment has the same public pull as Kickstarter.
Why are we telling you this? As our backers, what would you like us to do?
Sure looks like GZ thinks Hasbro *could* do something, maybe? On top of what Moon is already doing.
-
2013/12/01 01:04:45
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Alpharius wrote: It sure looks as if Gamezone thinks Hasbro could do....something?
Huh? It looks like Moon Designs thinks Hasbro could do something. Gamezone is only looking for a written letter to assuage Moons Designs concerns (at least that's what the message says).
Huh?
There exist 3 possible solutions to this conundrum.
1. Kickstarter reactivates the project attending to our petition
2. Wait for Hasbro to declare that they are not against this crowed funding campaign of HQ25th en Kickstarter (an American Company).
3. Immediately move the crowed funning to a platform within Europe, where no risks of legal repercussions exist.
Option one; we can only wait, we cannot be sure that Kickstarter will lift the pause. We cannot influence their decision any more than we have already.
Option two; Hasbro is not obligated to do anything at all.
Option three; here there is no risk, except of course we will raise less funds, no other platform out there at this moment has the same public pull as Kickstarter.
Why are we telling you this? As our backers, what would you like us to do?
Sure looks like GZ thinks Hasbro *could* do something, maybe? On top of what Moon is already doing.
Number 2 is in relation to
-------------------
If Kickstarter does not reactivate the pause taking into account our letter ( indicated above in the link), then it can only be reactivated if Moon Design P. asks them to. For Moon Design P. to do so they are asking for two things: An official letter from Hasbro in which it states that they, Hasbro, will neither act against our HQ25th nor Moon Design P. They, Moon Design P., have also demanded a considerable sum and percentages from the Kickstarter project.
--------------------
MD is asking for GZ to get a letter from Hasbro saying they won't act against either GZ (which is fair) or MD (which is not fair). Frankly, Hasbro is under no obligation to provide a letter, moreso a letter saying they won't against MD.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 01:06:15
2013/12/01 01:09:20
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
Smacks of extortion to me. If I were Gamezone I'd flip em the bird and take the whole project to Indiegogo.
Yeah - it might not make the million dollars it would on Kickstarter. But it would still do really well, more than enough to get the game made and produce some nice extras. Then all the fence-sitters can just buy it at retail in a year. (or year and a half, as these things tend to go)
And I'd do it just out of spite to this Moon Design place too.
2013/12/01 01:15:43
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
If I was Indiegogo, I'd be putting together a pretty sweet package to encourage GZ to make the switch. After all, Kickstarter only became popular for gaming once the real big projects hit. Something like Heroquest could help Indiegogo hit mainstream.
2013/12/01 01:48:06
Subject: Re:HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
First off, there is no way in hell hasbro would release a statement stating that such and such is free of litigious risk. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand how this would not be beneficial to hqsbros interest in the future.
Second off, if hasbro doesnt think that the demand is there for Heroquest with nearly a half million raised in a couple days, then they are sillier than anyone detractor could say.
It may be time for hasbro to dust off the parker edition of D&D fantasy adventure game that was never widely available in NA yet was a comparable heroquest engine with a few refinements. (modular board, initiative, variable dice)
oh wait.... wotc would never introduce a quality competitive.product. Netrunner was dropped because it competes with mtg. They would never make a.decent dungeon crawl board game that would.compete with d&d. Ravenloft/ashardalon/drizzt don't count. The less said about them the better.
The interest is there. Now the beurocracy needs to pull their heads out of their collective asses long enough to make a few bucks. I doubt that will happen though.
That's a bombshell! They told GameZone ahead of time they wouldnt allow it, but GameZone launched anyway with no word of that. They'd also license the name but won't do so without Hasbro's greenlight. This is dead in the water on Kickstarter and GameZone knew this was likely coming. Crazy! The comments on that BGG link are well worth reading, but here is the text of Moon Design's statement:
Hello all,
We want to give some background on the dispute surrounding Gamezone’s Kickstarter campaign to launch a remake of the hybrid board game/roleplaying game originally published by Milton Bradley called “Heroquest”.
Last week, Moon Design petitioned Kickstarter to remove the crowdfunding campaign for Gamezone’s “Heroquest” game. “Heroquest” is the registered US trademark of Moon Design and is the name of our “Heroquest” roleplaying game and assorted products. To allow a game using the same name to be promoted in the United States through Kickstarter without a license would be an unacceptable dilution of our brand and create market confusion to our detriment.
The trademark “Heroquest” is registered by Francis Greg Stafford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Registration Number 4082281) for use in game book manuals. Moon Design Publications LLC has the exclusive license for use of that trademark. For some time now we have been working on creating a board game called “Heroquest” pertaining to the mythology of Glorantha and an updated version of our Heroquest roleplaying game.
The project by Gamezone, a Spanish game company, proposes to remake a role-playing/board game originally produced by Milton Bradley and Games Workshop in 1989. The project calls their game “Heroquest” which is identical to our registered mark and easily confused with it.
Gamezone initially asked us for use of the Heroquest trademark on July 31, 2013. The next day we asked them if they could provide us with a copy of any written agreement with Hasbro to produce a 25th Anniversary Edition of Hasbro’s board game. Gamezone did not provide us with any written confirmation (and as of this date still has not done so). On August 26, 2013, we informed Gamezone by email that we must decline their request.
Despite being explicitly refused permission to use our trademark, Gamezone went ahead and launched this Kickstarter. As a New York State corporation, Kickstarter is subject to US trademark laws and the use of our trademark in the campaign was a violation of those laws.We told Gamezone that they needed to immediately get a licensing agreement from us (which, among other things, would require that they pay us for the rights to the name since it would mean foregoing our opportunity to release our game using our trademark and to compensate us for that lost revenue).
Gamezone did not get back to us within the period we set, and rather than have this end up in litigation (which could also bring in other parties with IP at stake), we asked Kickstarter to suspend the campaign. We then spoke to Gamezone informing them that we had certain non-negotiable demands for any license agreement, among them a statement that Gamezone has explicit permission from Hasbro to make this game based on their IP. Gamezone has assured us that they can get such permission, but until we see confirmation, we cannot responsibly license our trademark to be used in this Kickstarter campaign.
We sympathize with the fans of the Milton Bradley game who enthusiastically supported this project. We strongly support Kickstarter and the revitalization of old games with a loyal following. However, such activities must be done with the consent of the trademark holder and of any other legal owners of the property.
Regards,
Rick Meints
Moon Design Publications
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 04:00:14
2013/12/01 03:59:41
Subject: Re:HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
We want to give some background on the dispute surrounding Gamezone’s Kickstarter campaign to launch a remake of the hybrid board game/roleplaying game originally published by Milton Bradley called “Heroquest”.
Last week, Moon Design petitioned Kickstarter to remove the crowdfunding campaign for Gamezone’s “Heroquest” game. “Heroquest” is the registered US trademark of Moon Design and is the name of our “Heroquest” roleplaying game and assorted products. To allow a game using the same name to be promoted in the United States through Kickstarter without a license would be an unacceptable dilution of our brand and create market confusion to our detriment.
The trademark “Heroquest” is registered by Francis Greg Stafford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Registration Number 4082281) for use in game book manuals. Moon Design Publications LLC has the exclusive license for use of that trademark. For some time now we have been working on creating a board game called “Heroquest” pertaining to the mythology of Glorantha and an updated version of our Heroquest roleplaying game.
The project by Gamezone, a Spanish game company, proposes to remake a role-playing/board game originally produced by Milton Bradley and Games Workshop in 1989. The project calls their game “Heroquest” which is identical to our registered mark and easily confused with it.
Gamezone initially asked us for use of the Heroquest trademark on July 31, 2013. The next day we asked them if they could provide us with a copy of any written agreement with Hasbro to produce a 25th Anniversary Edition of Hasbro’s board game. Gamezone did not provide us with any written confirmation (and as of this date still has not done so). On August 26, 2013, we informed Gamezone by email that we must decline their request.
Despite being explicitly refused permission to use our trademark, Gamezone went ahead and launched this Kickstarter. As a New York State corporation, Kickstarter is subject to US trademark laws and the use of our trademark in the campaign was a violation of those laws.We told Gamezone that they needed to immediately get a licensing agreement from us (which, among other things, would require that they pay us for the rights to the name since it would mean foregoing our opportunity to release our game using our trademark and to compensate us for that lost revenue).
Gamezone did not get back to us within the period we set, and rather than have this end up in litigation (which could also bring in other parties with IP at stake), we asked Kickstarter to suspend the campaign. We then spoke to Gamezone informing them that we had certain non-negotiable demands for any license agreement, among them a statement that Gamezone has explicit permission from Hasbro to make this game based on their IP. Gamezone has assured us that they can get such permission, but until we see confirmation, we cannot responsibly license our trademark to be used in this Kickstarter campaign.
We sympathize with the fans of the Milton Bradley game who enthusiastically supported this project. We strongly support Kickstarter and the revitalization of old games with a loyal following. However, such activities must be done with the consent of the trademark holder and of any other legal owners of the property.
Regards,
Rick Meints
Moon Design Publications
I wonder if Kickstarter is also a registered corporation in Canada and the UK? Additionally all of MDP's Trademark assertions should include some verbiage indicating that they are for the US only.
Since we are fairly certain that Gamezone owns the Spanish Trademark, and it is highly unlikely that any of the game components are going to be produced in the US, I also wonder if these folks have any sort of legitimate gripe.
Still feels a bit like sour grapes and pettiness right now.
~Eric
Edit: Spoilered the response since RiTides beat me to it while I was typing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 04:00:52
GameZone not mentioning any of this is pretty sketchy, though. "No C&D possible" was far from transparent regarding what they had discussed, and been refused permission for, beforehand.
