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Also, meltagun to the face even if he is struck a deathblow. Its gonna be pretty easy to do when its mounted behind your fist. hell he could punch at moloc and when he goes to parry with the shield he could just melt the arm off. Also, trying and failing is better than trying and succeeding? Since when? i get the whole "learning experience" deal, but if i charge a bloodthurster and a daemon horde and lose terribly and then come back (with more warriors as the ones i just fought with died) and do it again and win, hows that better than winning the first time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS how did this turn into Moloc Vs Dante?

Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!

 bigboss1o1 wrote:
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!

Eh, I don't see it. First off, its no different than referencing Dante's experience as an advantage over Logan's. In actuality when you're talking about people who have made it that far the difference in their experience is minimal at best. But more than that, if all this experience makes Moloc that much better, why does he still die so often? 7 deaths over 500 years is a disappointing lifespan for any marine, let alone a chapter master.

 Orblivion wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!

Eh, I don't see it. First off, its no different than referencing Dante's experience as an advantage over Logan's. In actuality when you're talking about people who have made it that far the difference in their experience is minimal at best. But more than that, if all this experience makes Moloc that much better, why does he still die so often? 7 deaths over 500 years is a disappointing lifespan for any marine, let alone a chapter master.

First off it never actually says he died thats just speculation, and second if he did die at the Amarah campaign it was because he launched a boarding assault on a necron ship crippled it and the necron lord within causing them to retreat and single handedly winning the battle, then got sucked out into space if he died Id say thats admirable and also he wasnt defeated soo your arguement is invalid, and third of all all this hate on termie armor but fluff wise its not just termie armor its artificer termie armor which as stated is way more manueverable then any other termie armor pattern soo its not like he's Domo Roboto with a spear I see him as a heavily armored achilles like in the movie troy total badass.

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!

Eh, I don't see it. First off, its no different than referencing Dante's experience as an advantage over Logan's. In actuality when you're talking about people who have made it that far the difference in their experience is minimal at best. But more than that, if all this experience makes Moloc that much better, why does he still die so often? 7 deaths over 500 years is a disappointing lifespan for any marine, let alone a chapter master.

First off it never actually says he died thats just speculation, and second if he did die at the Amarah campaign it was because he launched a boarding assault on a necron ship crippled it and the necron lord within causing them to retreat and single handedly winning the battle, then got sucked out into space if he died Id say thats admirable and also he wasnt defeated soo your arguement is invalid, and third of all all this hate on termie armor but fluff wise its not just termie armor its artificer termie armor which as stated is way more manueverable then any other termie armor pattern soo its not like he's Domo Roboto with a spear I see him as a heavily armored achilles like in the movie troy total badass.

That's only one of them, the quote given earlier said that there were at least 6 other incidents reported in the last 5 centuries where the Minotaurs' chapter master had fallen in battle.

Even the best terminator armour ever made is still going to be slow and bulky in comparison to power armour, that's the trade off.

 Orblivion wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!

Eh, I don't see it. First off, its no different than referencing Dante's experience as an advantage over Logan's. In actuality when you're talking about people who have made it that far the difference in their experience is minimal at best. But more than that, if all this experience makes Moloc that much better, why does he still die so often? 7 deaths over 500 years is a disappointing lifespan for any marine, let alone a chapter master.

First off it never actually says he died thats just speculation, and second if he did die at the Amarah campaign it was because he launched a boarding assault on a necron ship crippled it and the necron lord within causing them to retreat and single handedly winning the battle, then got sucked out into space if he died Id say thats admirable and also he wasnt defeated soo your arguement is invalid, and third of all all this hate on termie armor but fluff wise its not just termie armor its artificer termie armor which as stated is way more manueverable then any other termie armor pattern soo its not like he's Domo Roboto with a spear I see him as a heavily armored achilles like in the movie troy total badass.

That's only one of them, the quote given earlier said that there were at least 6 other incidents reported in the last 5 centuries where the Minotaurs' chapter master had fallen in battle.

Even the best terminator armour ever made is still going to be slow and bulky in comparison to power armour, that's the trade off.

yes but whats the trade off for speed oh yeah the durability soo if it takes like 5 good hits to take me out and one to ruin you well you better hope your really really really fast. Im just saying


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This has been fun im going to bed by all means continue I love this ill be back to retort in the morn night all! MOLOC, MOLOC, MOLOC!!!

OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.

RULES

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)

To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves

So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn


Turn two

Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total


Turn Three

Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total


Turn Four

Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total


DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.

At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.

You didn't take into account that Dante has Hit & Run either. That'd let him disengage, shoot his pistol and get bonus charge attack.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You didn't take into account that Dante has Hit & Run either. That'd let him disengage, shoot his pistol and get bonus charge attack.

They said it. This is a bar brawl because "that's what Moloc is good at"

Based on thi, I don't think Moloc can even beat Calgar.

 DarthOvious wrote:
OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.

RULES

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)

To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves

So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn


Turn two

Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total


Turn Three

Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total


Turn Four

Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total


DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.

At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.

Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.

RULES

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)

To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves

So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn


Turn two

Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total


Turn Three

Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total


Turn Four

Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total


DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.

At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.

Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.

To be honest I doubt that Moloc could beat a kitted out Chapter Master from the new Space marine Codex now. Someone want to run the numbers?

 DarthOvious wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.

RULES

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)

To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves

So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn


Turn two

Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total


Turn Three

Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total


Turn Four

Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total


DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.

At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.

Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.

To be honest I doubt that Moloc could beat a kitted out Chapter Master from the new Space marine Codex now. Someone want to run the numbers?

Whatre we saying, EW shield, axe, AA on a bike?

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.

RULES

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)

To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves

So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn


Turn two

Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total


Turn Three

Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total


Turn Four

Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total


DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.

At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.

Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.

To be honest I doubt that Moloc could beat a kitted out Chapter Master from the new Space marine Codex now. Someone want to run the numbers?

Whatre we saying, EW shield, axe, AA on a bike?

That would do it I think. Even just a storm shield with the burning blade will accomplish it.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.

RULES

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)

To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves

So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn


Turn two

Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total


Turn Three

Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total


Turn Four

Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total


DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.

At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.

Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.

To be honest I doubt that Moloc could beat a kitted out Chapter Master from the new Space marine Codex now. Someone want to run the numbers?

Whatre we saying, EW shield, axe, AA on a bike?

Shield, TH, AA, Bike. Who is seriously going to run a Chapter Master with a mere axe? Have him be Black Templars for rerolls in challenges just for the lulz.

I don't have the new dex yet but I keep hearing of this mystical "Burning Blade" that's suppossed to kill stuff dead.

 Deadshot wrote:
I don't have the new dex yet but I keep hearing of this mystical "Burning Blade" that's suppossed to kill stuff dead.

It's more or less the Loyalist version of the AoBF. It's +3S AP2 at initiative but has a chance to burn the wielder. It's also more expensive than a Terminator. I personally still think a Thunder Hammer is better, as it's S8 and thus reaches that magical ID level for T4. If you manage to wound your enemy and he lives you'll bring him down to your I anyway, and a Chapter Master with 3++, EW and 4 wounds is probably going to live long enough to hit back regardless of what charges him.

I thought the mask only worked against shooting attacks?
You didn't account for the 2 in 6 chance that he 1 shots dante before the battle even takes place.

Also remember dante strikes last and moloc is striking first with str 6 AP 2 and a 3+invuln.

TT I fail to see where dante wins this engagement.

Also in relation to

Even the best terminator armour ever made is still going to be slow and bulky in comparison to power armour, that's the trade off.

According to the rules terminator armor only hinders the persons ability to run if it affected there reflexes and ability to act else you would see a penalty to weapon skill and I doubt you would see it employed so heavily.

Some of the strongest people in the game use terminator armor, abaddon, lysander, calgar, Moloc, Draigo and you see no impairment to there reaction time or ability to fight at all.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
I thought the mask only worked against shooting attacks?

Nope, it cause the opponents HQ to reduce their WS by 1, their Wounds by 1, their attacks by 1 and their Initiative by 1.

You didn't account for the 2 in 6 chance that he 1 shots dante before the battle even takes place.

You wanted a brawl, so you got a brawl. There isn't any shooting in brawls. Besides, Dante could always look out sir on the table top. This is a challenge setting in combat. You have challenged Dante and he has accepted.

Also remember dante strikes last and moloc is striking first with str 6 AP 2 and a 3+invuln.

Yes, I took that into account. I even took into account his preferred enemy Space Marines.

TT I fail to see where dante wins this engagement.

That's because you are blinded by mediocracy.

EDIT: I also forgot that if Moloc fails a leadership test he is reduced to WS1 for the turn since Dantes Death Mask acts as a normal Death Mask in addition to its other rules.

Burning Blade, AA, Storm Shield. Total cost for that bad boy would be about 235 on a CM platform.

I think they'd basically tie. Striking at initiative, hitting on 4+s, wounding on 2+s, both have a 3++ save.

How many attacks does Moloc have though? If he's only got 3 base then he should only be getting 1.5 hits to a CM's 2, and dealing 1.25 wounds to 1.66. After 3++, Moloc deals .4166 wounds per round compared to .5533 wounds.

Things get even worse if you give the CM a bike. Then Moloc is only wounding on 3+s, meaning he's only dealing 1 wound per turn, of which .333 will be unsaved.

That's assuming I got the statlines right.

Edit:
Oh, if Moloc has Preferred enemy: SM, then that gives him a bit of a boost, he'd be hitting 1.75 times (rerolls 1/3 of his 1.5 misses, so .5 rerolls, and 50% hit, so .25 more hits per turn).
He'd then basically get 1.7 wounds, since he misses a to-wound once every 36 rolls.

Thus, with PE, Moloc would get 1.7 wounds, and deals .566 wounds. So .013 wounds more per turn. Moloc wins against regular CM (though we would probably need to take into account blind rules, as well as the possibility of the CM wounding himself; I don't know how those numbers would work out).

Against a CM on a bike, Moloc still gets 1.75 hits, but only wounds 1.16 times before rerolls, which add .19 wounds (.59 wound rolls missed, 50% get rerolled, of which 2/3 wound), so 1.35 wounds when all is said and done.

So against a bike CM, after saves, Moloc is dealing .45 wounds a turn and taking .5533 wounds a turn. Thus Moloc loses in that setup.

Also, it'd be interesting to make the CM IH so he gets IWND.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Burning Blade, AA, Storm Shield. Total cost for that bad boy would be about 235 on a CM platform.

I think they'd basically tie. Striking at initiative, hitting on 4+s, wounding on 2+s, both have a 3++ save.

How many attacks does Moloc have though? If he's only got 3 base then he should only be getting 1.5 hits to a CM's 2, and dealing 1.25 wounds to 1.66. After 3++, Moloc deals .4166 wounds per round compared to .5533 wounds.

Things get even worse if you give the CM a bike. Then Moloc is only wounding on 3+s, meaning he's only dealing 1 wound per turn, of which .333 will be unsaved.

That's assuming I got the statlines right.

Moloc's attack base is only 3. He is basically dead against this CM.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
I thought the mask only worked against shooting attacks?

Nope, it cause the opponents HQ to reduce their WS by 1, their Wounds by 1, their attacks by 1 and their Initiative by 1.

You didn't account for the 2 in 6 chance that he 1 shots dante before the battle even takes place.

You wanted a brawl, so you got a brawl. There isn't any shooting in brawls. Besides, Dante could always look out sir on the table top. This is a challenge setting in combat. You have challenged Dante and he has accepted.

Also remember dante strikes last and moloc is striking first with str 6 AP 2 and a 3+invuln.

Yes, I took that into account. I even took into account his preferred enemy Space Marines.

TT I fail to see where dante wins this engagement.

That's because you are blinded by mediocracy.

EDIT: I also forgot that if Moloc fails a leadership test he is reduced to WS1 for the turn since Dantes Death Mask acts as a normal Death Mask in addition to its other rules.

This, the Death Mask is nothing to scoff at.

EDIT: To specify, it isn't the enemy HQ. It is any enemy independent character of your choosing that suffers the Death Mask effects.

 DarthOvious wrote:


Moloc's attack base is only 3. He is basically dead against this CM.

Eh, preferred enemy gives Moloc just enough of a boost that his damage output is higher. Still a difference of .013 wounds per turn basically translates to "whose dice are friendlier today" or "they kill each other."

Which, I guess with the whole "recover body, stick brain in jar, stick jar on bear-I mean, stick brain in new dude" shtick, Moloc wins.

Though the Burning Blade might automatically cremate the body, making brain recovery impossible.

Let's just say that IH Bike CM with Burning Blade and EWSS plus IWND is the strongest dude in the galaxy. I haven't run the numbers, but he probably sees Abbadon, and is like "Come and have a go, if you think you're hard enough."

I'm not reading 5 pages worth of banter but azrael with a 2+/4++ and a master crafted relic blade with a combi plasma cannon that is assault 1 could put a hurting on some in a rumble

Unfortunately for Azrael, on the tabletop at least, that AP3 is only going to take him so far. Anyone with a 2+ save is going to be outpacing him if they have an AP2 weapon of their own, of which Calgar, Moloc, Grimnar, and Dante all have.

He probably fares better in fluff though.

In fluff there can be only 1. Draigo.

Moloc fanboism. I'm stunned. Is this how you all feel when UM Calgar fans dig their heels in despite all logic?

Fluff, its not even comparable.
Skar Thirster >> Huron.
Alive for over 1k years > dying all the time.
Awesome because you are > tooled up by Terra (and still can't cut it)

It's like arguing that a high school football player is better than Adrian Peterson because he has better season stats and a higher win/loss ratio. Silly


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I'm a huge UM fan... Huge. But fluff wise Grimnar 1 fast draws and iaijutsu obliterates Moloc or he would but Dante wins the starring contest so Moloc walks away defeated before it even happens. Calgar chuckles as he was going to rip Molocs heart out.

Also i would like to see official stats for Tu Shan before we pick a winner. Sallies supplement cant come fast enough

Well since it is a FFA Brawl, and brawls only occur in one locale the clear winner is Logan Grimnar. He'll drink the rest under the table and still be able to bash their heads in.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Also i would like to see official stats for Tu Shan before we pick a winner. Sallies supplement cant come fast enough

Yeah, Tu'Shan should put the hurt on lots of people. Tu'Shan and Stronos, assuming they get added in Supplements, should be pretty awesome on the tabletop, provided GW doesn't do something dumb like give them 3+ armor saves or AP3 weapons. Also interested in Jubal Khan and Vladimir Pugh, though Khan might be more about chewing infantry than straight up 1 on 1, and Pugh, even if he's awesome, will still probably be overshadowed by Lysander.

Someone had homebrew rules for Tu'Shan that gave him Termi armor, a drakescale cloak conferring 3++, EW built in, strength of 5, and a Thunder Hammer, that due to a special rule, he could use at initiative. The result is pretty monstrous if you think about it.

I imagine the official GW one will have similar stats, though he might not get to strike at initiative with his TH. Still, a guy with 2+/3++, EW, and an S10 TH is pretty much an unmatched beatstick, except for perhaps Relic decked out CMs from C:SM.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Him an the emperor would be bros.

Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!

I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....