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Anyone read any of his fluff? I know his books do tend to pretty much destroy canon (with stupid stuff like back flipping terminators. Is it absolutely horrible or is it so-bad -it's-hilarious?

Horrible+bad it's hilarious.

Whilst his books are rather over the top and not that great, I don't particularly have a problem with back flipping terminators. They are heavy, yes, but they are also provided with power assisted exoskeletons that should allow a reasonably human-normal range of motion.

People over exaggerate his fluff bending. The biggest thing is his loose use of the multi laser and a love affair between the far seer and Gabriel. Great writer though. Worth a read just for it. 40k lore is what you make it.

 raiden wrote:
People over exaggerate his fluff bending. The biggest thing is his loose use of the multi laser and a love affair between the far seer and Gabriel.

You remember the kids bringing down an Eldar Falcon with sticks?
Or braying Necrons and Tyranids?
Or Eldar Guardians trying to block Warp Spiders ... and suceed? And Reapers and Death Jesters running into close combat?
Or Eldar Harlequin always ending in "a pile of mutilated bodies" in no time?
He also invented the fat bald drooling child-molesting Farseer.
Half his Eldar are Slaanesh worshippers, including the boss of the Ulthwe seer council and Lelith. Eldrat also had a pact with Slaanesh.

Also he introduces a severely wounded female farseer, only to have her tortured, maimed and mutilated for 180 pages before she is finally allowed to die.
And he introduces the last possible Exarch for Shining Spears on Ulthwe, only to have her slaughtered.
Yes, he writes about Eldar as if they raped and killed his wife (and as if he never read a Codex about them).

He is the reason why there is a stricter fluff control at BL. And he never was a good writer beside that.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 raiden wrote:
People over exaggerate his fluff bending. The biggest thing is his loose use of the multi laser and a love affair between the far seer and Gabriel.

You remember the kids bringing down an Eldar Falcon with sticks?
Or braying Necrons and Tyranids?
Or Eldar Guardians trying to block Warp Spiders ... and suceed? And Reapers and Death Jesters running into close combat?
Or Eldar Harlequin always ending in "a pile of mutilated bodies" in no time?
He also invented the fat bald drooling child-molesting Farseer.
Half his Eldar are Slaanesh worshippers, including the boss of the Ulthwe seer council and Lelith. Eldrat also had a pact with Slaanesh.

Also he introduces a severely wounded female farseer, only to have her tortured, maimed and mutilated for 180 pages before she is finally allowed to die.
And he introduces the last possible Exarch for Shining Spears on Ulthwe, only to have her slaughtered.
Yes, he writes about Eldar as if they raped and killed his wife (and as if he never read a Codex about them).

He is the reason why there is a stricter fluff control at BL. And he never was a good writer beside that.

Wait...what? Like I mean I heard about the whole kids destroy falcon with sticks thing but...WHAT?!? Braying Necrons and 'nids?!? Slaaneshi Eldar?!?! Actually, wasn't there something about a transforming land raider/razorback there somewhere?

The Razorback doesn't actually transform, he just forgets that it's a Razorback for a page or so, and says that it's something else.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 raiden wrote:
People over exaggerate his fluff bending. The biggest thing is his loose use of the multi laser and a love affair between the far seer and Gabriel.

You remember the kids bringing down an Eldar Falcon with sticks?
Or braying Necrons and Tyranids?
Or Eldar Guardians trying to block Warp Spiders ... and suceed? And Reapers and Death Jesters running into close combat?
Or Eldar Harlequin always ending in "a pile of mutilated bodies" in no time?
He also invented the fat bald drooling child-molesting Farseer.
Half his Eldar are Slaanesh worshippers, including the boss of the Ulthwe seer council and Lelith. Eldrat also had a pact with Slaanesh.

Also he introduces a severely wounded female farseer, only to have her tortured, maimed and mutilated for 180 pages before she is finally allowed to die.
And he introduces the last possible Exarch for Shining Spears on Ulthwe, only to have her slaughtered.
Yes, he writes about Eldar as if they raped and killed his wife (and as if he never read a Codex about them).

He is the reason why there is a stricter fluff control at BL. And he never was a good writer beside that.

And that kids, is why C.S. Goto is bad for you and you shouldn't touch his books unless you want to "lol" a bit.

 Troike wrote:
The Razorback doesn't actually transform, he just forgets that it's a Razorback for a page or so, and says that it's something else.

Land raider. It goes from Land Raider to Razorback to Land Raider again IIRC.

Here's 1D4chan with a hilarious list of reasons. Language is NSFW btw, lots of F-bombs

So he made SM uber badass, I am ok with that, but yeah, if you want STRICT fluff only stuff goto didn't know what he was writing about, but as a writer is actually pretty good, some people are just to die hards to see the good writer under the superficial fluff destruction. oh and it wasn't JUST sticks >.>. also, I have no problem with termies that ride on tope of LR, I find that awesome.

raiden wrote:So he made SM uber badass, I am ok with that, but yeah, if you want STRICT fluff only stuff goto didn't know what he was writing about, but as a writer is actually pretty good, some people are just to die hards to see the good writer under the superficial fluff destruction. oh and it wasn't JUST sticks

Internet hyperbole tends to exaggerate stuff (is anyone taking 1d4chan seriously? go read the manual on how to use the internet ), and "word of mouth" is very strong in the 40k fandom. I've found that almost every single Black Library author does not "strictly" adhere to fluff, from Abnett's emotional servitors to Mitchell's unisex-Scholas, and the same goes for FFG's RPG and its female Vostroyans or SoB spellcasters. A lot of fans just don't know the fluff well enough to notice all the little inconsistencies, and perhaps Mr. Goto's deviations are simply a tad more obvious. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black by virtue of ignorance of their own appearance.

I recommend anyone should read his interviews - he seems like a pretty nice guy - and read up on how fluff works in 40k, rather than blindly jumping on the bandwagon.

Note: I've not read any of his books - maybe they really are bad - but I'm sure the same goes for most of the haters.

Lynata, there's a difference between how the fluff works in 40k and the atrocities C.S. Goto committed. It's almost as if he didn't even care to do a small bit of research. The weapon mistakes are not excusable by " Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -> Melta IS Melta, Warp Spiders ARE Warp Spiders. You can't just change rules of an "universal truth" inside an universe and just "LOLZ".

The Slaaneshi Eldar that I can forgive. Who knows, maybe there are some out there, but something as "Standard" as weapons and gear? Inexcusable.

And really, I think 1D4chan is actually very serious business when it wants. They seem to have plenty of accurate articles but written in their typical "FUUUUUUUUUUU" style with plenty of tongue-in-cheek humor.

TheDraconicLord wrote:Lynata, there's a difference between how the fluff works in 40k and the atrocities C.S. Goto committed. It's almost as if he didn't even care to do a small bit of research.

And I could say the same about Sandy Mitchell, yet that guy is absolutely loved by large parts of the fandom. Biased perception is biased.

All I'm saying is that a lot of fans seem strangely forgiving towards some particular authors, and at the same time strangely antagonistic against others. It just doesn't come across as equal treatment, and I think this is due to a lot of fans not realising how much other authors deviate from previously established fluff themselves, and because of internet hyperbole such as Goto supposedly putting multilasers on Tyranids.

And really, I think 1D4chan is actually very serious business when it wants.

Depending on the editor. I still remember a time when the SoB page was all LOL -4 STR and GB2KITCHEN.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492687.page#5044249

tl;dr: don't just blindly trust the stuff somebody posts on the internet, regardless of whether it's 1d4chan, lexicanum or 40kwiki.

 Lynata wrote:
Note: I've not read any of his books - maybe they really are bad - but I'm sure the same goes for most of the haters.

That's the point, I have read most Eldar books, first because they were the only Eldar books, then after 2 to be able to warn others. Haven't read Eldar Prophecy to the end though because it was too terrible. That includes content AND style: Harlequins always "somersaulting" and ending "in a pile of mutilated bodies" (sadly these are quotes).

I am aware of artistic freedom and Abnett. Goto is a special case as he has absolutely no clue about what he writes about and he obviously doesn't care. Eldar fans should avoid him completely: You don't want his images in your head, believe me.

Only positive thing: After the Goto fiasko, Gav Thorpe was allowed to write an Eldar triology, and he knows his stuff as former GW background coordinator.

 Lynata wrote:

TheDraconicLord wrote:Lynata, there's a difference between how the fluff works in 40k and the atrocities C.S. Goto committed. It's almost as if he didn't even care to do a small bit of research.

And I could say the same about Sandy Mitchell, yet that guy is absolutely loved by large parts of the fandom. Biased perception is biased.

Please, do tell us more. I haven't read a single book of his so I'd love more details.

All I'm saying is that a lot of fans seem strangely forgiving towards some particular authors, and at the same time strangely antagonistic against others. It just doesn't come across as equal treatment, and I think this is due to a lot of fans not realising how much other authors deviate from previously established fluff themselves, and because of internet hyperbole such as Goto supposedly putting multilasers on Tyranids.

Touché! I have previously been incorrectly misled with the Carnifex multilaser thing. You are 100% correct here, but still, when Goto deviates it's with the subtlety of a brick to the face. A casual reader may not even notice something amiss with some of the authors, but c'mon, there's a limit when they don't even seem to care.

And really, I think 1D4chan is actually very serious business when it wants.

Depending on the editor. I still remember a time when the SoB page was all LOL -4 STR and GB2KITCHEN.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492687.page#5044249

tl;dr: don't just blindly trust the stuff somebody posts on the internet, regardless of whether it's 1d4chan, lexicanum or 40kwiki.

Well, I'll be damned, I never knew the Sororita's page has been in a such sorry state before . Still, people do seem to care when it comes to the fluff and it does seem up-to-date. When we can't own every single book / magazine / codex out there and read them for ourselves, we gotta get our information outta somewhere. But your advice of taking everything with a pinch of salt is wise.

So basically it's okay and may even be pretty good just take it with a grain of salt?

C.S. Goto?

He's not a good writer. Leaving aside his fluff massacring ways, Warrior Brood was barely readable, and Eldar Prophesy was just impossible.

With Eldar Prophesy especially, he falls into the trap of trying to make things alien by making up words - it's impossible to 'get into' the book because you have to check the appendix every five words. The language is often over-complicated - loquacious for the sake of trying to look intelligent, with syntax worthy of a computer translating into Russian and back. These, over and above the Eldar suiciding by breaking his soulstone, is why I dislike C.S. Goto.

About the only good thing about him are the GoTo in C jokes that practically write themselves.

I haven't read his elder stuff so I cant say anything, but from reading his blood raven books I feel he has a fairly good talent for writing, just a more noticeable lack of lore than other authors.

TheDraconicLord wrote:Please, do tell us more. I haven't read a single book of his so I'd love more details.

Ehh, I think it's mostly stuff a lot of his readers just aren't very familiar with. For example, in his books, the Schola Progenium serves as a training center for Sororitas Novices, Cadet Commissars and Storm Troopers, who are trained by their own organisations, with the pupils even mingling and playing sports against one another. This is a fairly different image to the Schola as described in GW own fluff, which practices a strict separation of the sexes and has only Drill-Abbots as teachers. Plus, the kind of advanced training the Mitchell describes in his books would happen in the various organisation's own facilities - young Sisters serve their novitiate in a convent of the Orders Famulous, and young Commissars are schooled in Commissar Training Squads that are part of an existing Imperial Guard regiment.

Oh, and in Mitchell's book, the Veteran Sister Superior in charge of training novices at the Schola hangs out with the other teachers, drinking alcohol and playing cards with them, even flirting with Cain. This just doesn't synch with anything I got from the Codex fluff about "a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regim" and whose members "believe that the purpose of life is to suffer". Considering how this veteran is in charge of raising the next generation of Sisters, this only makes the contrast even more critical.

According to Troike, his portrayal of SoB is less "breaking" in other books he wrote, but it continues to irritate me because I often see various 40k fans pulling exactly this character and this book as "proof" that Battle Sisters are supposedly allowed to feth around and enjoy themselves, although this goes against the very character of the entire army. As a Sisters player, I would argue that this is way more uncharacteristic and damaging than a bunch of Marines deploying with multilasers - it just isn't recognised as such because people are more familiar with Space Marines than with SoB. But does it make that any better than what Goto wrote?

Ultimately, I think Mitchell just didn't read a lot about how the Schola Progenium and the Commissariat works. He seems to have misunderstood the Schola for a sort of boot camp for SoB, Commissars and Storm Troopers, and being an orphan in the Imperium means you invariably end up in one of those three organisations.
However, in Codex fluff, the Schola neither accepts any orphans, nor does every progena end up in one of the aforementioned departments. In fact, only the smallest minority does, with most students becoming civilian clerks in the Administratum, only allowing those who display sufficient zeal, ruthlessness and martial spirit to end up in the Sororitas/Commissariat/Storm Trooper regiment.
Arguably, this would make the entire character of Commissar Cain impossible, as a student with his personality and character traits would neither be forced to become a Commissar, nor would he be allowed to.
So either he didn't read up on all the sources, or he did not care for them because he absolutely wanted to have his Friendly Commissar for a lighthearted novel series. And a lot of fans like him for this.

Alas, 40k does not aim for consistency, and Mitchell's vision of the 41st millennium is just as valid as Codex fluff. But of course the same could be said about Goto's. Ultimately, readers who grow up and like the fluff printed in one source may become confused or even angry about obvious contradictions as they erroneously expected it to tie together. A lot of readers just don't seem to know the fluff good enough to notice how often such conflicts actually occur between the sources...

TheDraconicLord wrote:Still, people do seem to care when it comes to the fluff and it does seem up-to-date. When we can't own every single book / magazine / codex out there and read them for ourselves, we gotta get our information outta somewhere.

Our own Troike worked a lot on the page, or so I was led to believe.

It still inflates the number of how many Sisters there are, but that's another topic.

I definitively agree about us having to get the information somewhere. My personal advice would be to use such wikis as a sort of "basis" for your research, but never stop looking. Lexicanum for example contains a list of sources and may thus be used like an index of sorts, allowing you to track down where a piece of fluff actually comes from, and then (if possible) read it for yourself to double-check whether or not the article truly reflects the original statement.

purplefood wrote:Horrible+bad it's hilarious.

Kroothawk wrote:Yes, he writes about Eldar as if they raped and killed his wife (and as if he never read a Codex about them).
He is the reason why there is a stricter fluff control at BL. And he never was a good writer beside that.

TheDraconicLord wrote:And that kids, is why C.S. Goto is bad for you and you shouldn't touch his books unless you want to "lol" a bit.

TheDraconicLord wrote:Lynata, there's a difference between how the fluff works in 40k and the atrocities C.S. Goto committed. It's almost as if he didn't even care to do a small bit of research.

Kroothawk wrote:Haven't read Eldar Prophecy to the end though because it was too terrible. That includes content AND style: Harlequins always "somersaulting" and ending "in a pile of mutilated bodies" (sadly these are quotes).
I am aware of artistic freedom and Abnett. Goto is a special case as he has absolutely no clue about what he writes about and he obviously doesn't care. Eldar fans should avoid him completely: You don't want his images in your head, believe me.

SkavenLord wrote:So basically it's okay and may even be pretty good just take it with a grain of salt?

I see you got it /sarcasm

Lynata wrote:And I could say the same about Sandy Mitchell, yet that guy is absolutely loved by large parts of the fandom. Biased perception is biased.

I have only read "For the Emperor" which for a long time was the only Tau book fully respecting official Tau background.
Some people miss the humour, when a free spirit commissar describes e.g. fanatics like the Sororitas.

khornate sorcerer.... GG

He wrote a book called Darkness of Dark.......that should really tell you all you need to know.

Kroothawk wrote:Some people miss the humour, when a free spirit commissar describes e.g. fanatics like the Sororitas.

If you really think that something like a "free spirited Commissar" could exist in the setting, that is.

gossipmeng wrote:khornate sorcerer.... GG

The common description of the Bloodtide is another good example for the internet hyperbole!

Dustin V wrote:
He wrote a book called Darkness of Dark.......that should really tell you all you need to know.

Sounds like a good title for a D.N.Angel doujinshi...

 Lynata wrote:
According to Troike, his portrayal of SoB is less "breaking" in other books he wrote

While that one Sister was the most contradictory to SoB fluff, I will point out that that the others sure weren't perfect either. We have: idiotic Sisters who forget their military training and charge by themselves into Tyranid swarms, and a whole Order being mind controlled by a psyker when Sisters are stated to have a resistance to warp trickery. The Novices are probably the best portrayal in the book, apart from the whole freely mixing with males in the Schola part. And one of them is shown to be attracted to one of Cain's Commissar Cadets, which a heavily brainwashed person wouldn't really be doing.

Trial of the Mantis Warriors was a good short story, had some interesting ideas and a good portrayal of both the Red Corsairs and the Mantis Warriors.

The Imperial Armour books changed a lot of it though but it is still pretty cool.

 Troike wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Some people miss the humour, when a free spirit commissar describes e.g. fanatics like the Sororitas.

It's not just a matter of Cain's perception being biased, though. The Sisters in those books actually do act inaccurately/are portrayed badly, regardless of Cain's sneering.

That's like saying that Monty Python didn't portray Palestine and its inhabitants realistically in "Life of Brian".

But Cain is, despite being comical, meant to be somewhat serious. He notes in one of his forewords that he does try to adhere to 40K canon, which he really doesn't do with Sister "let's crack open a cold one". It's not an outright comedy like Life of Brian is.

Really, the main problem is that a lot of fans do take it seriously, leading to inaccurate perceptions of some things.

Troike wrote:Really, the main problem is that a lot of fans [I]do[/io] take it seriously, leading to inaccurate perceptions of some things.

This. The novels would surely work better if it was a clear parody or satire.

I've already said it in another thread - the entire debacle could be saved if, at some point, it would be revealed that Cain pulled a Köpenick and was actually just some poor but clever hiver scum who managed to steal a Commissar's coat and then got swept up in the Imperial war machinery, and just ran with it as he was afraid of what they'd do to him if they find out. This would invalidate his memoirs as largely faked or at least intentionally twisted without making them less entertaining to read - and you could even add a section about how in the end it was chosen to keep the truth a secret in order to preserve morale and cover up the awkward slip-ups...

Troike wrote:It is irritating, but I find that some people will see how inaccurate it is if you provide relevant codex fluff and some statements about how Black Library has issues with adhering to canon.

I think I just see these views to be spreading more quickly than the small core of Sisters players (who know what it says in the studio material) can point out the deviations.

The novels are just way more popular, and then there's the issue of people usually sticking to what they read first, as that shaped their perception of the setting. It's the main reason for why I am so dead-set on GW's original material, I think ... it is just what I "grew up with", so to speak. Sure, I could name other reasons, but I'd be hypocritical if I wouldn't add that those may well be excuses/justifications influenced by the initial decision.

 Lynata wrote:
there's the issue of people usually sticking to what they read first, as that shaped their perception of the setting. It's the main reason for why I am so dead-set on GW's original material, I think ... it is just what I "grew up with", so to speak. Sure, I could name other reasons, but I'd be hypocritical if I wouldn't add that those may well be excuses/justifications influenced by the initial decision.

Sure, some people will stick to their ideas on principle, but I don't think it's always the case. I'd call myself an example of that, since I came in with the usual misconceptions (there are millions of Sisters, Acts of Faith are magical, Cain must have right about the chasity thing), but when I saw the relevant studio material that went against it, I changed my views. I do think that one can make a very compelling case just by posting the relevant studio stuff, and explaining the problems that third-parties have in adhering to the fluff (this is as easy as pointing to Goto).

 Lynata wrote:

raiden wrote:So he made SM uber badass, I am ok with that, but yeah, if you want STRICT fluff only stuff goto didn't know what he was writing about, but as a writer is actually pretty good, some people are just to die hards to see the good writer under the superficial fluff destruction. oh and it wasn't JUST sticks

Internet hyperbole tends to exaggerate stuff (is anyone taking 1d4chan seriously? go read the manual on how to use the internet ), and "word of mouth" is very strong in the 40k fandom. I've found that almost every single Black Library author does not "strictly" adhere to fluff, from Abnett's emotional servitors to Mitchell's unisex-Scholas, and the same goes for FFG's RPG and its female Vostroyans or SoB spellcasters. A lot of fans just don't know the fluff well enough to notice all the little inconsistencies, and perhaps Mr. Goto's deviations are simply a tad more obvious. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black by virtue of ignorance of their own appearance.

I recommend anyone should read his interviews - he seems like a pretty nice guy - and read up on how fluff works in 40k, rather than blindly jumping on the bandwagon.

Note: I've not read any of his books - maybe they really are bad - but I'm sure the same goes for most of the haters.

I too once thought as you do. But they really really are that bad. The whole transforming Raxorback/Land Raider bit was in he first few pages I skimmed while in the book store.

To top it off, a Terminator was dragged to his death by a SPORE MINE!