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Everybody is completely overlooking the fact that the burning blade is way more expensive than the thunder hammer.
When there are two items where there is a legitimate debate on which one is better, and one is almost half the cost, I don't see a reason why you should be taking the more expensive one.

If you have t5 w4 2+/3++/6 eternal warrior with IWND, does it really matter if you are striking last? 1 extra strength with no worries about scalding yourself like a fresher cooking with a metal handled pan for the first time... powerfist every time!

Yep, and S7 to S8 is probably the most important 1 pt strength difference in the game.

herpguy wrote:
Everybody is completely overlooking the fact that the burning blade is way more expensive than the thunder hammer.
When there are two items where there is a legitimate debate on which one is better, and one is almost half the cost, I don't see a reason why you should be taking the more expensive one.

Well, they're good in different situations, so it makes sense to evaluate in which situation which weapon is better. Your local meta will probably affect which will ultimately be more useful.

Though I agree, that Thunder Hammer seems to generally be the better choice to go with the EW shield, especially as you consider the price. However, as I play IF successor, I'd personally just take Lysader at that point.

I don't play loyalists, but I would think that the bike CM might actually be better than Lysander. For about the same points he can go anywhere on the battlefield in one turn. However, that's an argument I guess I don't know much about.

One thing about S8 vs S7. Being able to instakill T4 is nice, but not actually as big deal as it may first seem. Bikes and Marks of Nurgle are really popular on T4 characters, so the multiwound HQs you can actually squish with S8 might not be that common. That's also why Lysanders S10 is so great.

 Crimson wrote:
One thing about S8 vs S7. Being able to instakill T4 is nice, but not actually as big deal as it may first seem. Bikes and Marks of Nurgle are really popular on T4 characters, so the multiwound HQs you can actually squish with S8 might not be that common. That's also why Lysanders S10 is so great.

HQs aren't the only things with multi-wounds; Paladins, Hive Guard, Broadsides, for example.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

HQs aren't the only things with multi-wounds; Paladins, Hive Guard, Broadsides, for example.

Certainly true.

 Crimson wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

HQs aren't the only things with multi-wounds; Paladins, Hive Guard, Broadsides, for example.

Certainly true.

Fiends, flesh hounds, screames, nid warriors/shrieks, raveners,

Using the allies and secondary FOC to get 3 OB!!

Or you could just consider the Damocles rhino

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want to go all-out, balls-to-the-walls offense-centric, run him as a Black Templar. Sure, you lose IWND and your 6+ FNP, but rerolls in challenges lets you take care of the most dangerous MCs even better and makes sure that most fighty Characters stay well away from you.

Not since the new codex has my HQ been accepted in challenges. Makes me sad since the only times i get to use the CT has been when my Hg champ got killed by a chaos lord, and my scout sergeant killed a sallie HG champ (he had a hammer).

Striking at I1 is all well and good as long as you are still at 4W. However when you get later in the game and the Master has been shot/wounded in one combat already suddenly the difference becomes immense.

It only takes 6 saves to reliably put a wound on him even with high AP fire, if you are striking last then you lose the ability to cut down some of your foe before they strike. The Thunder Hammer is better at killing things that don't want to fight you but is worse when something is coming gunning for you. Hell even a power fist sarge can put a wound on him if he has the hammer whereas with the blade he'd cut them down for no cost.

The blade simply has more staying power as most things that will hit him at ap2 will never live to strike whereas with the hammer he's haemorrhaging wounds constantly to any power fist/axe or MC that gets too close.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Striking at I1 is all well and good as long as you are still at 4W. However when you get later in the game and the Master has been shot/wounded in one combat already suddenly the difference becomes immense.

It only takes 6 saves to reliably put a wound on him even with high AP fire, if you are striking last then you lose the ability to cut down some of your foe before they strike. The Thunder Hammer is better at killing things that don't want to fight you but is worse when something is coming gunning for you. Hell even a power fist sarge can put a wound on him if he has the hammer whereas with the blade he'd cut them down for no cost.

The blade simply has more staying power as most things that will hit him at ap2 will never live to strike whereas with the hammer he's haemorrhaging wounds constantly to any power fist/axe or MC that gets too close.

The only enemies you're going to be cutting down before they strike is stuff your Chapter Master really shouldn't have to bother with anyway. Any kind of serious melee threat will live through at least one turn of attacks. It might just be because I'm used to fighting loads of Meganobz and other 2+W T4 models, but S8 really does make a difference. Being able to threaten the enemy with ID is huge. It also makes a difference against MCs in that S7 usually only wounds on 3+, whereas S8 will wound most MCs on 2+. If they're rocking Iron Arm that starts making quite a difference.

In a challnge how many models are able to put 6w on a t5 model before the 2+/3++/6 save? And after that he gets to recover a wound each turn on a 5+. With a 3++ I wouldnt exactly say he will be haemorrhaging wounds, when excetionally few models have more than 6 attacks to begin with, which at worst have to hit, wound, then get past a 3++. Often having to get past a 2+ with a 6+ fnp.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In a challnge how many models are able to put 6w on a t5 model before the 2+/3++/6 save? And after that he gets to recover a wound each turn on a 5+. With a 3++ I wouldnt exactly say he will be haemorrhaging wounds, when excetionally few models have more than 6 attacks to begin with, which at worst have to hit, wound, then get past a 3++. Often having to get past a 2+ with a 6+ fnp.

Believe it or not, some people don't play Iron Hands... or even take a bike.

 Crimson wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
In a challnge how many models are able to put 6w on a t5 model before the 2+/3++/6 save? And after that he gets to recover a wound each turn on a 5+. With a 3++ I wouldnt exactly say he will be haemorrhaging wounds, when excetionally few models have more than 6 attacks to begin with, which at worst have to hit, wound, then get past a 3++. Often having to get past a 2+ with a 6+ fnp.

Believe it or not, some people don't play Iron Hands... or even take a bike.

So what? Take a Wraithknight even against your non-Bike non-IH CM; 6A, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved only. T5, 6+ FNP and IWND are actually a lot smaller things than 3++ and IW.

Dont forget that the striking at init 1 isnt as bad if you target the charge target first with grav weaponry, thereby concussing that first turn as well.

while this will mostly only occur with the bike backup for a biker CM, it definitely might swing things back in the favor of the hammer over the blade.

Hmm, the thunder hammer arguments are kind of convincing. The 20 pts saved can go towards artificer as well. Hmm...

The question now is, is it worth having Tigurius or an additional Chapter Master?

I think it's pretty beastly. Artificer Armor, Bike, Shield Eternal + Power Fist/Thunder Hammer. 245-250 points. The I1 isn't that big a deal on a character with 4 wounds, a 2+/3++ and Eternal Warrior, and the S8 can be clutch against a lot of targets. And the Hammer can be good to ensure them striking at I1 too if they survive the first attack (good against Daemons and big MCs). And getting bikes as troops to go alongside him is a sweet bonus.

I would also add an auspex to that build.

12 inch range, doesnt need to hit, lwoers cover by 1 and, crucially, doesnt count as your shooting target for that squad.

pretty useful against any deathstars that have invisible or otherwise have shroud/stealth (eldar/de stars in general),

and still lets the CM charge something else that's a bigger threat.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Hmm, the thunder hammer arguments are kind of convincing. The 20 pts saved can go towards artificer as well. Hmm...

The question now is, is it worth having Tigurius or an additional Chapter Master?

I don't think that's a choice that will ever have to be made because (a) for anyone not Ultramarines that can't get Tiggy, and (b) for Ultramarines themselves, there's no point in taking the Chapter Master we are discussing when you can instead take Calgar.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The question now is, is it worth having Tigurius or an additional Chapter Master?

You can always take Tigerius, buy him a Command Squad w/ Bikes, and have it join the Chapter Master so he gets Feel No Pain on top of his already beastly survivability.

If you're already going all in with a Chapter Master on a Bike, why not 2?

Two Iron Hands Chapter Masters on bikes with Storm Shields and Thunderhammers. T5, 3++, 6+ FNP, It Will Not Die on W4, 2 Str 10 Pie Plates to dish out, and speed to be anywhere needed by turn 2.

Because Tigurius allows you a 80% chance to get misfortune which is extremely important for dealing with Screamerstars and Seer Councils, my two biggest fears.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the bonus attack you could get with the blade. You'll probably never get it if you have a SS (or Shield Eternal), which makes the Thunderhammer more appealing to me.

Perhaps, going off the idea of 2 CMs, give one TH/Shield Eternal and the other the Burning Blade and a pistol for the extra attack. I would make the TH/SE my Warlord and throw him at a nice big threat while the Blade CM takes out anything else I need dead.

Tons of points, but tons of potential.

Or a captain instead of another CM. Ride with a bike command squad for gravguns and fnp.

I guess I should just RTFR, but can you take the Shield Eternal, a cc weapon AND a ranged weapon? Or just 2 of 3?

Two CMs sounds immense, but only if they are Iron Hands, the IWND potential is just too annoying to put down easily! Especially having double blast paired with a Tau Commander should easily get FB on a wide variety of things.

Tigurius brings a lot to the table though, including reserve manipulation. Ugh i'm torn!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tomjoad wrote:
I guess I should just RTFR, but can you take the Shield Eternal, a cc weapon AND a ranged weapon? Or just 2 of 3?

You can take all three, restrictions are so 5th ed.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tomjoad wrote:
I guess I should just RTFR, but can you take the Shield Eternal, a cc weapon AND a ranged weapon? Or just 2 of 3?

You can take all three, restrictions are so 5th ed.

Not in this case, armoury requires you to swap one weapon for a relic.(Indomitus armor is the exception) In this case you either trade in your chainsword or bolt pistol for the Eternal Shield.

If you take a regular Storm shield though, you can keep the chainsword and bolt pistol then trade them for 2 other weapons.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Because Tigurius allows you a 80% chance to get misfortune which is extremely important for dealing with Screamerstars and Seer Councils, my two biggest fears.

This is when you ally with Smurfs as an Iron Hands Detachment would not be able to take him.