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So now the new book's out, I figured I'd get a new thread going.

So what do we think about the new Army Book? What's good, what's not, what do people think the best tactics are now, and how will it effect the other armies in the metagame?

Discuss away!

Waiting on mine still :(

Does anyone know if the new prowess affects shooting wounds?

 Eldarain wrote:
Waiting on mine still :(

Does anyone know if the new process affects shooting wounds?

I take it you mean prowess? And no, it only applies in close combat (though, to be slightly OT, I have a feeling Wood Elves will have something along that vein when they're re-done).

Murderous Prowess is still very good though, especially when combined with a Cauldron, which allows you to re-roll all failed wounds.

Vile auto-correct!

Figured it would be melee only. I just saw some people posting summaries that made it sound like it might work with shooting.

From everything I've heard it sounds like a powerful but balanced book.

It's not bad. Those monsters are really scary but pretty easy to kill with shooting/magic before they reach combat. If they do reach combat they'll tear it up!

Expect 3x Hydras and 2x Kharbdyss (sp?) in monster mash lists.

thelordcal wrote:
It's not bad. Those monsters are really scary but pretty easy to kill with shooting/magic before they reach combat. If they do reach combat they'll tear it up!

Expect 3x Hydras and 2x Kharbdyss (sp?) in monster mash lists.

I'm not so sure we'll really be fearing DE monster mash lists honestly... They're all ground based for the most part, (manticore & b.dragon being the only fliers), and overall they'll likely go down decently quickly to anyone who has a solid shooting & magic phase.
HE's & WoC go the monster mash better since all of their relevant ones are fliers, giving them much greater threat range & movement. (plus the Frostie has MUCH better synergies with a T3 army.)

The new Beastlord choice is also rather 'meh', being that he comes with a mandatory mount, (likely the manticore since the scourgerunner is hilariously flimsy, ala Slaanesh Chariots but minus a ward save), can only take 50pts in magic items and his beast buffing ability isn't the greatest.

It might be interesting to see what a DE monster mash can do now that they do have access to Lore of Beasts, but overall I don't think it'll be terrorising the meta in the same way that other 'big scary model spam' lists like WoC triple chimeras are.

You might see msu return.
The warlocks will appear often, multiple roles, undercosted.
Big witch and exec units will abound.
Get use to seeing dark elf life mages especially with the dagger.
You might see 4 or 5 pegasus builds backed by monsters for leadership shennanigans.
It is possible at 2400 to do a 4 manticore, 3 big monsters of choice list but more for shiz n gigs

An interesting book with some good options pretty comparable to the high elf book, both better than he lizrdmen book.
My 2 cents which in Canada is now rounded down :-)

Experiment 626 wrote:
relevant ones are fliers, giving them much greater threat range & movement. (plus the Frostie has MUCH better synergies with a T3 army.)

The new Beastlord choice is also rather 'meh', being that he comes with a mandatory mount, (likely the manticore since the scourgerunner is hilariously flimsy, ala Slaanesh Chariots but minus a ward save), can only take 50pts in magic items and his beast buffing ability isn't the greatest.

I actually quite like the High Beastmaster. He might not be the most competitive choice, but I still think he's worth a try out. For 500 points, you can equip him with Cloak of Twilight and the Enchanted Shield and give him Manticore Rage and Iron Hard Skin. This will give you:

3 WS7 S5 attacks from the Beastmaster, that re-roll to hit, re-roll 1s to wound and have KB and Multiple Wounds (D3)
4 + 2D3 WS5 S5 attacks from the Manticore with KB, plus another D6 S5 hits from Thunderstomp

The Beastmaster has a 1+ save and a 3++ vs ranged attacks, and the Manticore has a 4+ save. And you can fit that into a 2000 point list. For an extra 40 points, you could give the Beastmaster the Ogre Blade, which'll give him S6 instead, and won't need the charge to do so.

So, not the most competitive choice, but I think he's worth trying out!

I'm really liking the new DE book though theres a few things Im a bit annoyed about like how witch elves and executioners which weren't really used before seem to be the way to go now. I guess GW do want to sell more models.

The rules are pretty cool though and Im happy with the magic items and the lore.

I see a lot of people are thinking of running an executioner death star with tullaris and a hag on cauldron, but I was thinking that two hags, both with witchbrew would be better. As I interpret it it would still give you +2 attacks but you would get more ASF attacks (good against HE and high initiative stuff) and would save some points enough to squeeze in a lvl1 sorceress with dispel scroll at 2400pts.

New witches and exec model kits = they're now much better in game.

 Druchii wrote:

I see a lot of people are thinking of running an executioner death star with tullaris and a hag on cauldron, but I was thinking that two hags, both with witchbrew would be better. As I interpret it it would still give you +2 attacks but you would get more ASF attacks (good against HE and high initiative stuff) and would save some points enough to squeeze in a lvl1 sorceress with dispel scroll at 2400pts.

Yeah, I think that's how it works. That's not a bad idea either, putting your Scroll on a Lvl1 leaves the Lvl4 open to take the Dagger, which I still think is a very useful item.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Druchii wrote:

I see a lot of people are thinking of running an executioner death star with tullaris and a hag on cauldron, but I was thinking that two hags, both with witchbrew would be better. As I interpret it it would still give you +2 attacks but you would get more ASF attacks (good against HE and high initiative stuff) and would save some points enough to squeeze in a lvl1 sorceress with dispel scroll at 2400pts.

Yeah, I think that's how it works. That's not a bad idea either, putting your Scroll on a Lvl1 leaves the Lvl4 open to take the Dagger, which I still think is a very useful item.

I still think that Black Guard are top dogs, with Sisters a close second. Don't get me wrong, executioners are up there, but they're so expensive, that if they go, you have nothing else.

Whereas, Black Guard are exactly the same as the previous book, except with improvements. And sisters synergise with units. I'm looking at a large combat unit on their own, as well as MSU.

The large combat unit holds some merit, in that, against anything with low armour and high strength, they have a lot of attacks with the +1 to wound, and the 4+ ward in combat.

the MSU approach goes into flanks and denies parry saves.



As for the Monster mash, I expect to see someone run the pseudo monster mash. With 4 Medusas. ((Two solo and two shrines)) and 3 hydras. Two Beastlords on manticores ((Naked)) and two masters on manticores. 7 monsters, 4 medusa shooting attacks and a core of crossbows.


As for the book, it is indeed a good book. Not broken, good personal lore, and no bad units.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

As for the Monster mash, I expect to see someone run the pseudo monster mash. With 4 Medusas. ((Two solo and two shrines)) and 3 hydras. Two Beastlords on manticores ((Naked)) and two masters on manticores. 7 monsters, 4 medusa shooting attacks and a core of crossbows.

600 points of lords
440-500 points of heroes
480-540 in specials
530 in rares.

Bare bones (no upgrades or gear on anything) you're looking at over 2700 points to fit all those monsters and fit the minimum 25% core.
Most likely you're going to want some gear on the masters, breathes on the hydras.
I think 2 or 3 hydras, medusa on foot, and a flying hero or two is much better. Manticores are too squishy, taking more of them is just more squishy.

Lizardmen, on the other hand, can do NINE monsters. (carnosaur scar vet, 3 bastiladons, 3 steggadons, 2 steg ancients + 25% core).

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since I forgot to mention it above, you'll notice on page 95 is the death of the sorceress.
125 points gets you a level 2 wizard, with two awesome spells. (soul blight, and a S5 magic missile).
You also get 5 wounds, a 4+ ward, you're M9 fast cav, you have 10 S4 poison attacks with ASF, and 5 S3 mount attacks.

Can anyone think of a reason to take a sorceress as a hero choice when Warlocks are so awesome?

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Can anyone think of a reason to take a sorceress as a hero choice when Warlocks are so awesome?

-Matt

Yep, plenty. Warlocks are stuck with the same spells. Doom bolt is a cool Magic Missile, but we all know MMs are the worst spells. Now Soulblight is good, but there are other spells I'll want access too, that Warlocks can't provide. Also, Warlocks probably aren't that survivable, being out on their own in the open. And Warlocks can't take a scroll.

Don't get me wrong, Warlocks are great, but Sorceresses are far from dead.

As The Shadow said, the Warlocks give you only a limited spell selection, where a Sorceress allows more flexibility. But my thinking is to run them in tandem.

My 3k list in progress has a lvl 2 Beasts Sorceress riding shotgun with the Warlocks on a Dark Steed of her own. This gives her speed and bodies with a 4+ ward to soak up shooting while she can stay very close to the monsters and monstrous cav to buff it with Beasts magic.

 The Shadow wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Can anyone think of a reason to take a sorceress as a hero choice when Warlocks are so awesome?

-Matt

Yep, plenty. Warlocks are stuck with the same spells. Doom bolt is a cool Magic Missile, but we all know MMs are the worst spells. Now Soulblight is good, but there are other spells I'll want access too, that Warlocks can't provide. Also, Warlocks probably aren't that survivable, being out on their own in the open. And Warlocks can't take a scroll.

Don't get me wrong, Warlocks are great, but Sorceresses are far from dead.

I can take a scroll on a level 1 if I want a caddy; or on the level 4.
Soul blight has won me more games than mindrazor has. -1S -1T for an army of S3 T3 guys is a huge boon. Being able to bubble soul blight to effectively hit every enemy unit in the game is worth it.
Magic missiles might not be great all the time, but the threat of throwing out 2D6 S5 hits is significant. Being dark magic, if you're rolling 3 dice, 42% of the time you are going to do another 2D6 S1 hits, 2% of the time 3D6 S1 hits. S5/S1 hits does 4-5 wounds vs T5, 3-4 wounds vs T6, and 2-3 wounds vs T7 or more. It's a good deal for 12+.
I'm a firm believer that having a situation back up spell is totally fine when the main spell (soul blight) is so awesome.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Can anyone think of a reason to take a sorceress as a hero choice when Warlocks are so awesome?

-Matt

Yep, plenty. Warlocks are stuck with the same spells. Doom bolt is a cool Magic Missile, but we all know MMs are the worst spells. Now Soulblight is good, but there are other spells I'll want access too, that Warlocks can't provide. Also, Warlocks probably aren't that survivable, being out on their own in the open. And Warlocks can't take a scroll.

Don't get me wrong, Warlocks are great, but Sorceresses are far from dead.

I can take a scroll on a level 1 if I want a caddy; or on the level 4.
Soul blight has won me more games than mindrazor has. -1S -1T for an army of S3 T3 guys is a huge boon. Being able to bubble soul blight to effectively hit every enemy unit in the game is worth it.
Magic missiles might not be great all the time, but the threat of throwing out 2D6 S5 hits is significant. Being dark magic, if you're rolling 3 dice, 42% of the time you are going to do another 2D6 S1 hits, 2% of the time 3D6 S1 hits. S5/S1 hits does 4-5 wounds vs T5, 3-4 wounds vs T6, and 2-3 wounds vs T7 or more. It's a good deal for 12+.
I'm a firm believer that having a situation back up spell is totally fine when the main spell (soul blight) is so awesome.

-Matt

If you're going to run a Lv4 Dark Magic user, then Warlocks are the natural support choice and you don't actually need any Lv2's outside of wanting access to say Beast or Heavens. Another Lv1 at most for a scroll caddy would be the max, since 2 units of Warlocks will achieve far more. (double Soulblight? Yes please!)
Give your Lv4 the Dagger and have fun. Your opponent is now worried about the likelihood of 3 killer Hexes and 2 brutal combos that go with them. Plus you have the potential for 3 Doombolts. Opponents will hate your magic phases!

Besides, Warlocks have even better miscast protection than Pink Horrors, who are already stupidly survivable to miscast damage as it is... (whoopee-s***, you can take up to 3 auto wounds that allow you your 4++ save )
Show me another wizard in the entire game that's laughing at miscasts like the Warlocks are.

Not only that, but a lot of wizard hunting solutions are a total fail against warlocks.
10 S4 poison attacks with ASF really thin out a lot of the problems. 4+ ward cuts your losses, and unless they all die, you still have your level 2 wizard.

Let's take the wizard levels out of the review.
For 25 points, you get fast cav with 2 S4 attacks, with ASF, poison and murderous power, along with a S3 I5 horse attack. 6+ armor, and 4++ ward.
That's worth 25 points a model.

Yeah, Warlocks are really good, I admit and, trust me, I'll be taking them most games. What I'm saying is that a Hero Level Sorceress, for me, is still a must-have, to provide me with extra support spells (e.g. PoD, Wyssan's, Melkoth's) and a Scroll. Even if my Level 4 is packing the scroll, I'll normally run my Level 2 with the Tome, because there's some great combos to be had from being able to choose one of the spells in the Dark Magic Lore.

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, Warlocks are really good, I admit and, trust me, I'll be taking them most games. What I'm saying is that a Hero Level Sorceress, for me, is still a must-have, to provide me with extra support spells (e.g. PoD, Wyssan's, Melkoth's) and a Scroll. Even if my Level 4 is packing the scroll, I'll normally run my Level 2 with the Tome, because there's some great combos to be had from being able to choose one of the spells in the Dark Magic Lore.

The problem with the tome is a lot of dark magic combos are situation to your opponent. Items that let you choose spells force you to choose spells when the list is created(as per BRB). So, unless you are tailoring your list for each opponent, you've got to pick that spell when you write the list. This means you won't know if you're going to get those other spells you want to combo it with.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, Warlocks are really good, I admit and, trust me, I'll be taking them most games. What I'm saying is that a Hero Level Sorceress, for me, is still a must-have, to provide me with extra support spells (e.g. PoD, Wyssan's, Melkoth's) and a Scroll. Even if my Level 4 is packing the scroll, I'll normally run my Level 2 with the Tome, because there's some great combos to be had from being able to choose one of the spells in the Dark Magic Lore.

The problem with the tome is a lot of dark magic combos are situation to your opponent. Items that let you choose spells force you to choose spells when the list is created(as per BRB). So, unless you are tailoring your list for each opponent, you've got to pick that spell when you write the list. This means you won't know if you're going to get those other spells you want to combo it with.

-Matt

Some are, but most aren't, at least the ones I'm thinking of. If you want to go with a Ld bomb type list, with a Kharibdyss or two, or a Cry of War Hag and maybe a Death caster to try for Doom + Darkness, then the ability to ensure Shroud of Despair is brilliant. Also, a Lvl4 Life caster would work very well with a Lvl2 Dark caster with the Tome. The Dark caster chooses World of Pain, which synergises brilliantly with Dwellers (and is awesome anyway), and Power of Darkness, any lost wounds from which can be regained using the Lore of Life attribute.

Leadership wrecking is risky; you run into vampires, tomb kings, daemons, or a frenzied chaos warrior army you're in trouble.

Power of Darkness isn't worth it. 8+ to generate D3 dice? You're likely to spend as many as you need. Also PoD is a signature, you don't need a special item for that.

I would take it for word of pain, but not to try and combo with dwellers, but to combo it with another word of pain.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Leadership wrecking is risky; you run into vampires, tomb kings, daemons, or a frenzied chaos warrior army you're in trouble.

Power of Darkness isn't worth it. 8+ to generate D3 dice? You're likely to spend as many as you need. Also PoD is a signature, you don't need a special item for that.

I would take it for word of pain, but not to try and combo with dwellers, but to combo it with another word of pain.

-Matt

Sorry for being noobish but how is Leadership wrecking bad against vampires, tomb kings, daemons and frenzied chaos? Are they all fearless or something?

Also I agree with the shadow that power of darkness is still pretty good. You might end up casting it with two dice and only get one back but then youve given your unit +1s and only used one power dice. Not bad I think though its obv not as good as it once was!

 Druchii wrote:
Sorry for being noobish but how is Leadership wrecking bad against vampires, tomb kings, daemons and frenzied chaos? Are they all fearless or something?

Undead use the Unstable rule. For every point of combat they lose by, they lose one model. Their leadership doesn't come into account. They can never flee, even voluntarily. They're immune to psychology completely. Daemons do use leadership upon losing combat, but they're also immune to psychology. Frenzy grants immunity to psychology as well, and can only be removed by beating the unit in combat. Which is difficult against a frenzied unit of chaos warriors. That's why I use them.

 Evertras wrote:

 Druchii wrote:
Sorry for being noobish but how is Leadership wrecking bad against vampires, tomb kings, daemons and frenzied chaos? Are they all fearless or something?

Undead use the Unstable rule. For every point of combat they lose by, they lose one model. Their leadership doesn't come into account. They can never flee, even voluntarily. They're immune to psychology completely. Daemons do use leadership upon losing combat, but they're also immune to psychology. Frenzy grants immunity to psychology as well, and can only be removed by beating the unit in combat. Which is difficult against a frenzied unit of chaos warriors. That's why I use them.

But in the case of Undead/Demons does their leadership not affect the amount of guys they lose so if they were to roll a 10 for their test and they were ld5 they would lose 5 guys but if I was to reduce their ld by 1 they would then lose 6?

Lol I might just be looking for a good reason to use the Kharibidyss I really love the model! Need to learn how to spell it though

 Druchii wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

 Druchii wrote:
Sorry for being noobish but how is Leadership wrecking bad against vampires, tomb kings, daemons and frenzied chaos? Are they all fearless or something?

Undead use the Unstable rule. For every point of combat they lose by, they lose one model. Their leadership doesn't come into account. They can never flee, even voluntarily. They're immune to psychology completely. Daemons do use leadership upon losing combat, but they're also immune to psychology. Frenzy grants immunity to psychology as well, and can only be removed by beating the unit in combat. Which is difficult against a frenzied unit of chaos warriors. That's why I use them.

But in the case of Undead/Demons does their leadership not affect the amount of guys they lose so if they were to roll a 10 for their test and they were ld5 they would lose 5 guys but if I was to reduce their ld by 1 they would then lose 6?

Lol I might just be looking for a good reason to use the Kharibidyss I really love the model! Need to learn how to spell it though

Demons roll against their leadership as you described, undead do not. If they lose by 5, they lose 5 wounds. Nothing else factors in. No rolling at all.

 Evertras wrote:

 Druchii wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

 Druchii wrote:
Sorry for being noobish but how is Leadership wrecking bad against vampires, tomb kings, daemons and frenzied chaos? Are they all fearless or something?

Undead use the Unstable rule. For every point of combat they lose by, they lose one model. Their leadership doesn't come into account. They can never flee, even voluntarily. They're immune to psychology completely. Daemons do use leadership upon losing combat, but they're also immune to psychology. Frenzy grants immunity to psychology as well, and can only be removed by beating the unit in combat. Which is difficult against a frenzied unit of chaos warriors. That's why I use them.

But in the case of Undead/Demons does their leadership not affect the amount of guys they lose so if they were to roll a 10 for their test and they were ld5 they would lose 5 guys but if I was to reduce their ld by 1 they would then lose 6?

Lol I might just be looking for a good reason to use the Kharibidyss I really love the model! Need to learn how to spell it though

Demons roll against their leadership as you described, undead do not. If they lose by 5, they lose 5 wounds. Nothing else factors in. No rolling at all.

Actually, Ld-wrecking a great way for Dark Elves to combat "The List" almost every Daemon army will run... (especially in a tournament)

Most daemonic units are typically run in an MSU or MMU fashion, with only Plaguebearers & Beasts, (and very occasionally Bloodletters if someone is crazy enough to try them), being sizable.
Daemonettes will typically max out at 18 because they like to hit flanks since they're really just non-ASF elves with just a 5++, while Horrors have no reason to ever buy more than the basic 10 since their Lore is overall fairly poor on them.

Dark Elves can out-fight almost everything in the Daemon army short of the 'uber brick of 4-6 Beasts, thus nuking that Ld and removing the BSB re-roll which Beasts & Plaguebearers will almost always get, can pretty much ensure that Daemons will always be testing for Daemonic Instability on a 2 or 3 when you win combat. You'll melt those units much faster, which is important since Dark Elves don't want protracted fights vs. anything.

To kick off a bit of a new discussion, what do people think of Hellebron and Morathi? I think they're actually pretty good.

Hellebron kicks ass in combat, and she isn't all that expensive if you factor in the 85 points (?) worth of Khainite Gifts she's got, and the fact you don't need another Witchbrew Hag to make a unit go mental.. The lack of defensive capabilities whatsoever is somewhat perturbing, but you could mount her on a Cauldron for a passable 6+/5++, which gives you all the benefits of the Cauldron too. Does take up all your Lord points though, pretty much. But, and I'll say it again, she wrecks some serious face in combat.

Applying the same logic to Morathi, taking away the 125pts for a Pegasus (not even factoring the improved statline), the 4++ and the MR 2, she costs 250 points. Which is only 30 points more than a Level 4 Sorceress. For that 30 points you get the ability to mix and match Lores (to some extent), an extra D3 bonus to casting Dark Magic, 4 WS5 S5 KB attacks with the potential to cripple an enemy character and the potential to drop the opponents' WS by 5.

Hellebron is a bit more of a unknown quantity, but I genuinely think Morathi is a great choice in lists, unless you have a specific plan in mind for your list that requires a Lvl4 caster using a lore other than Dark, Shadow or Death. Or you're playing in a comp where no SCs are allowed, of course.

Any super fighting character who is T3 with 6+/5++ isn't worth having.

Morathi is a great deal. Not only is she "only" 30 point more, but having a 4+ ward and MR2 are things that normally wizards can't do. 2+ ward vs spells is pretty good, considering those misfires from Black Horrors, or the wound from Power of Darkness.

I think the big loser is Malekith. 4+ armor and 2+ ward looks great, but it's only a ward vs non-magical attacks.
For his cost, you can get both a dread lord, and a sorceress lord, and have them both perform better than Malekith.

Lokhir might be the secret super star.
4 S4 attacks, re-rolling to wound, re-rolling to hit, and being able to put those hits on any character, even if you aren't in base to base (looking at your characters hiding in a 2nd rank).
If he does go in a challenge, he makes his unit unbreakable.
2+ armor (hv army, cloak and helm) and 4+ regen, and terror. All for 235. He pretty much pisses all over the 155 point fleet master lord choice.

 The Shadow wrote:
To kick off a bit of a new discussion, what do people think of Hellebron and Morathi? I think they're actually pretty good.

Hellebron kicks ass in combat, and she isn't all that expensive if you factor in the 85 points (?) worth of Khainite Gifts she's got, and the fact you don't need another Witchbrew Hag to make a unit go mental.. The lack of defensive capabilities whatsoever is somewhat perturbing, but you could mount her on a Cauldron for a passable 6+/5++, which gives you all the benefits of the Cauldron too. Does take up all your Lord points though, pretty much. But, and I'll say it again, she wrecks some serious face in combat.

Applying the same logic to Morathi, taking away the 125pts for a Pegasus (not even factoring the improved statline), the 4++ and the MR 2, she costs 250 points. Which is only 30 points more than a Level 4 Sorceress. For that 30 points you get the ability to mix and match Lores (to some extent), an extra D3 bonus to casting Dark Magic, 4 WS5 S5 KB attacks with the potential to cripple an enemy character and the potential to drop the opponents' WS by 5.

Hellebron is a bit more of a unknown quantity, but I genuinely think Morathi is a great choice in lists, unless you have a specific plan in mind for your list that requires a Lvl4 caster using a lore other than Dark, Shadow or Death. Or you're playing in a comp where no SCs are allowed, of course.

I think that Hellebron is really powerful. With the ward save she gets from being on the Cauldron, she might even survive a few return hits. She's deadly against characters and units alike. But...she HAS TO either be mounted on a cauldron or in the same unit as one for the 5++. Probably better off putting the BSB on it and her in the unit. That way she can't be hit with as many attacks.

I still don't know what to think about Morathi. I wasn't really sure what to think about her in the old book either. Clearly powerful, but I'm not convinced that I really want to run her over a lvl 4 for slightly cheaper.

Overall, the book is really good. I feel like it's pretty well balanced, but there are a couple of issues.

Number one is that the Warlocks are just plain broken. The ability to take the ward saves vs the miscast is ridiculous.

Number 2 is that, unless you're in a shooting heavy meta, WEs are clearly better than corsairs. I will still use corsairs cuz I likes 'em, but the additional attacks means that they will kill more (oh, and they're a higher I, so even more likely to get rerolls to hit) and the 5++ they get from the CoB pretty well negates the 4+ armor save the corsairs get. The ONLY downside I really see is the inability to stick a non-khainite character in there with them. Even so, giving a master/dreadlord a 2+ including a Dragonhelm means that you get a 2+/2++ if you have the flaming banner in the unit...so not much of a downside...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Any super fighting character who is T3 with 6+/5++ isn't worth having.

Morathi is a great deal. Not only is she "only" 30 point more, but having a 4+ ward and MR2 are things that normally wizards can't do. 2+ ward vs spells is pretty good, considering those misfires from Black Horrors, or the wound from Power of Darkness.

I think the big loser is Malekith. 4+ armor and 2+ ward looks great, but it's only a ward vs non-magical attacks.
For his cost, you can get both a dread lord, and a sorceress lord, and have them both perform better than Malekith.

Lokhir might be the secret super star.
4 S4 attacks, re-rolling to wound, re-rolling to hit, and being able to put those hits on any character, even if you aren't in base to base (looking at your characters hiding in a 2nd rank).
If he does go in a challenge, he makes his unit unbreakable.
2+ armor (hv army, cloak and helm) and 4+ regen, and terror. All for 235. He pretty much pisses all over the 155 point fleet master lord choice.

Yeah, the downsides to Hellebron are pretty huge. She'll kill a ton, though. Stick her on the corner of a horde and when she makes way, she can only be swung at by one file (so, up to 5 HE spearmen is the max that would be swinging at her). If her WS was 9 she'd be even safer, but <shrug> Either way she's not lasting too long, but it's not as drastic as you say.

I really, really like Lokhir. I liked him a lot in the last book. In the last book he was more than 15 points too expensive...now that SDC gives scaly skin, he might be worth the 235...but probably not. Comparing him to the useless Fleet Master is useless.