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2013/10/14 03:07:23
Subject: Making regular (Tactical) Terminators worth taking, how?
Since 5th Edition at least, Assault Termies have been more or less the only Terminators you took for vanilla marines. Regular Terminators just couldn't compare with a 3++, even with the weapons options you took. Even now in 6th, with many agreeing that Termies are over-costed (please don't discuss that here, I made another thread for it if you want to: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547603.page ) TH/SS Termies are still a good solid choice to take.
So I'm wondering how we can make regular Terminators just as good as assault ones, or at least good enough so that you will actually considering them instead of only ever taking hammernators???
Some ideas:
Let them take two special weapons right off the bat, not one for every 5, and only ever two, so you can't take 4 if you have a 10-man squad.2 cyclone missile launchers or 2 assault cannons for around 250 points or less is a pretty good deal.
Let them take 2 for every 5 Termies, so at 10 they can have 4 special weapons. I like the idea, but I'm worried it might be too powerful. Yes it will cost upwards of 450 points, but the squad will put down a considerable amount of firepower while having enough bodies to whether a lot of return fire.
Give them special rules like splitfire or tankhunters.
Let them replace their stormbolters with combi-weapons. Just like CSM termies, and with relentless it will make them deadly, especially with combi-gravs.
Some new types of special weapons: I've always wondered why termies have never been able to take Multi-Meltas or Lascannons, despite it being one of the biggest no-brainers I've ever seen.
Thats all I can think of for now. Any other ideas?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/14 05:26:21
GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants"
2013/10/14 03:21:15
Subject: Making regular Terminators worth taking, how?
I've always wondered why their armaments are described as "powerful" and "long ranged" in the fluff (with generous helpins of the words "punishing hail" and "withering volley" or whatevs ) .We need a terminator devastator squad! four assaulty-canyns and laughing off the hellturkeys. that is worth it. I never take them as is. and the ability to give the sarge a non gakky weapon, et un stormshield. Also, move through cover would be amazing?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/14 03:25:10
Morris, tragically sold his soul to the Chaos Gods of Flowers, Dancing, Laughter and Friendship. The Morris Heresy is on record as the shortest and least successful heresy in Imperial history.
Camkierhi wrote: thats the best group of ass I've seen on the net, and I've looked at alot.
2013/10/14 05:02:46
Subject: Making regular Terminators worth taking, how?
Largeblastmarker wrote: I've always wondered why their armaments are described as "powerful" and "long ranged" in the fluff (with generous helpins of the words "punishing hail" and "withering volley" or whatevs ) .We need a terminator devastator squad! four assaulty-canyns and laughing off the hellturkeys. that is worth it. I never take them as is. and the ability to give the sarge a non gakky weapon, et un stormshield. Also, move through cover would be amazing?
I would take that as an elite or heavy support choice. Unfortunately they overlap too much with devastator centurions. Either way, it doesn't help tactical terminators, whose only real way to be fixed is a major shift in the meta (less or more expensive AP 2), although a lower price couldn't hurt tactical terminators, and perhaps include more options, like combi-weapons and different power weapons instead of just fists. However, there is no single magic bullet solution to making tactical terminators good.
2013/10/14 05:11:19
Subject: Making regular Terminators worth taking, how?
As others have mentioned I have always preferred the CSM terminators for their power weapons and their combi weapons. So adding more weapon options would be helpful. I dont know if this is used in the new edition (I play older editions), but what about making terminators a scoring unit? I imagine a ranged terminator unit holding an OBJ could be powerful.
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2013/10/14 05:22:21
Subject: Making regular Terminators worth taking, how?
Dakkamite wrote: Reduce the amount of AP: 2 infinite range large blasts in the game by about... 90%.
Granted that will still leave several dozen, but its a start.
This is the actual answer, as no matter how much you try to balance 2+ saves, it will invariably upset some sort of balance in the game.
Its weird because on the dropping of 6th ed, 2+ saves became huge for a small amount of time, namely before Eldar and Tau. Until then, the nerf to power weapons and general lack of AP2 en masse kept termies reasonable.
The big problem is the proliferation of AP2+ or masse high strength weaponry to force a lot of saves.
The only way to fix them is a slight cost reduction (no less than 30ppm), and a reduction in AP2 weaponry or a cost for them. Otherwise, they're actually still a bargain, considering they get a 5++, powerfist, and storm bolter on top of a normal marine, so 30-35ppm with some attractive options and a reduction in AP2 weapons would be fine.
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2013/10/14 05:24:35
Subject: Making regular Terminators worth taking, how?
Twoshoesvans wrote: As others have mentioned I have always preferred the CSM terminators for their power weapons and their combi weapons. So adding more weapon options would be helpful. I dont know if this is used in the new edition (I play older editions), but what about making terminators a scoring unit? I imagine a ranged terminator unit holding an OBJ could be powerful.
I would love this. Maybe as with Bikes, taking a Captain/Chapter Master with Termie Armor makes all units of 10-man termies troops? But for for whatever reason GW seems dead set on ever making Termies for vanilla marines troops, despite the fact that 3 of the other SM armies can do it already...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/14 05:26:09
GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants"
2013/10/14 05:54:32
Subject: Making regular Terminators worth taking, how?
Largeblastmarker wrote: I've always wondered why their armaments are described as "powerful" and "long ranged" in the fluff (with generous helpins of the words "punishing hail" and "withering volley" or whatevs ) .We need a terminator devastator squad! four assaulty-canyns and laughing off the hellturkeys. that is worth it. I never take them as is. and the ability to give the sarge a non gakky weapon, et un stormshield. Also, move through cover would be amazing?
haha i think thats what the Centurians are ment to be granted its rather silly that they do not have a invulne save.
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2013/10/14 05:55:10
Subject: Making regular (Tactical) Terminators worth taking, how?
Make all terminator saves 2+ invulnerable. Make sure these elite of elite always get their save. Then the best way to get rid of them is weight of fire, as is they are worthless.
Make storm shields 5+ FNP in meelee only.
Done.
Also too much freaking ap 2, or ap 3 for that matter. the 3+ tax has never been more crippling then with this much ap 3 weaponry now.
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2013/10/14 06:00:13
Subject: Making regular (Tactical) Terminators worth taking, how?
Orock wrote: Make all terminator saves 2+ invulnerable. Make sure these elite of elite always get their save. Then the best way to get rid of them is weight of fire, as is they are worthless.
Make storm shields 5+ FNP in meelee only.
Done.
Also too much freaking ap 2, or ap 3 for that matter. the 3+ tax has never been more crippling then with this much ap 3 weaponry now.
I was actually thinking something along the lines of WHFB: Give Terminators a 1+ armor save. A roll of 1 still fails of course, but now they can take it against AP2 weapons like Lascannons and things with rending. No ++ saves by themselves now, but a stormshield gives them a 5++.
Or would that be too broken as well?
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+10 points a model for one round of fire for each special ammo seems rather steep, GK get +1S to all their bolter types for 20 points a squad, and that can be 10 guys.
Maybe HB replacing SB combined with the one army chapter tactics would be OP, only had the chance to read through a friends SM codex once. But I would rather see one unbalanced unit then all non assault terminators being fairly weak pointsinks.
I like the idea of the 1+ save. That is more in keeping with the idea that they can withstand devastating firepower, much like they could way back in 2nd edition.
Giving them a rule that lets them reroll their armor or invulnerable save would make them massively more survivable, but might be too powerful with character models.
Rumbleguts wrote: +10 points a model for one round of fire for each special ammo seems rather steep, GK get +1S to all their bolter types for 20 points a squad, and that can be 10 guys.
Maybe HB replacing SB combined with the one army chapter tactics would be OP, only had the chance to read through a friends SM codex once. But I would rather see one unbalanced unit then all non assault terminators being fairly weak pointsinks.
I like the idea of the 1+ save. That is more in keeping with the idea that they can withstand devastating firepower, much like they could way back in 2nd edition.
Giving them a rule that lets them reroll their armor or invulnerable save would make them massively more survivable, but might be too powerful with character models.
I don't like the idea that comes with these because its about changing an important aspect of the game (AP) and its also about saying Over Powered units are fine, because I don't like my unit being Under Powered. I'm sure you can think of other ways that make them balanced, useable and fill a niche without making them over powered. A heavy bolter each??? That unit of 5 is dropping down 15 strength 5 AP 4 shots a turn while moving. That is horrible for xenos armies like Dark Eldar (A bit biased maybe, but that unit Is OP to my army) or Tau/Necron infantry based lists. A 3+ save is meant to be extraordinary protection (As said in the Eldar codex, where there 3+ is 'one of the best suits of armour in the known galaxy'), having entire units which simply poop all over anything under that line is simply not good balance when so many armies pay through they're noses to even get a save vs bolter fire!
1+ Save? How is that fair vs armies that can't muster much/any AP 1 weapons? Once again, Dark Eldar are left in the dust, turning their only form of defence to put a stupid amount of splinter rounds into them (18 shots per terminator...). How about Tyranids without a single piece of AP 1 save for psykic powers. Or Orks with only their shock attack gun. Then giving re-rolls would increase the survivability of the 'characters' by to much? How about increasing everythings survivability off the scale! That's 36 wounds before a single terminator falls. OP as anything.
Its not terminators that are bad, its the Meta, don't go around making a unit over powered to compensate for something that changes with each new codex release. How much is a power fist? 20ish points. How much is artificer armour? 20ish points. Storm Bolters are 10pts. You have a bargain in your terminators, why so much hate for them?
2013/10/14 19:08:51
Subject: Making regular (Tactical) Terminators worth taking, how?
Let them take the two upgrade weapons even in a five man squad (this was the case for a while) let them all have relic blades OR powerfists and let them assault after deepstrike.
Then there function would be deepstrike, unload with kick butt weapons then finish up with an assault. They can't sweeping advance so it's a one trick poney but a heck of a trick.
The other choice would be make them about 5~10 points cheaper
2013/10/14 19:53:56
Subject: Making regular (Tactical) Terminators worth taking, how?
Let the armour be as it is and add +1T a bike does this because it is a bulky chunk of equipment. A centurion does this so why not a terminator? This would represent the fact that those suits were made for usage in hazardous environment like wildfires, radiation etc.
You still need luck for saving a lascannon blast or plasma weaponry but you would survive lots more of small calibre. It is true, you still will kill terminators with cadence but fluff says, that they are almost inpenetrable to small arms fire. I would even go grant +2T just to nerf Tau and Eldar plasma spam and the not-so-occasional plasmacannon blast.
And I do not believe in "every army must have something similar" thing. Dark Eldar NEVER would don such a kind of clunky, unaesthetic armour. Humans are too weak to use them or they are simply not available to them. Orks have a good toughness and win by number and tyranids still have guys with rending weapons. And then you would not need more weapon upgrades. The fact that the 2-attack-with-power fist-guys will endure a round of melee by sheer resilience they will become formidable even in CC. Otherwise it is lurch forward and lay down a withering hail of stormbolter fire (which should be rending because of ridiculous amount of bolts being fired)
Imagine: would you pay 200 pts for 5 teleporting guys with T6, 2+/5+ save, power fists and rending stormbolters? Before the "overpowered" card is played i would like to see whether there might be a mathematical approach to this instead of "guessing a possible imbalance". The written rules here were done with respect to fluff first, then competivity.
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2013/10/14 20:05:08
Subject: Making regular (Tactical) Terminators worth taking, how?
I like the Ida of making terminator storm bolsters rending. I like the +1 toughness too.
What if terminators got both there regular and invuln save against each attack. More like the way magic saves worked in older editions of fantasy. That would make them a little more resiliant to small arms spam.
Rumbleguts wrote: +10 points a model for one round of fire for each special ammo seems rather steep, GK get +1S to all their bolter types for 20 points a squad, and that can be 10 guys.
Maybe HB replacing SB combined with the one army chapter tactics would be OP, only had the chance to read through a friends SM codex once. But I would rather see one unbalanced unit then all non assault terminators being fairly weak pointsinks.
I like the idea of the 1+ save. That is more in keeping with the idea that they can withstand devastating firepower, much like they could way back in 2nd edition.
Giving them a rule that lets them reroll their armor or invulnerable save would make them massively more survivable, but might be too powerful with character models.
I don't like the idea that comes with these because its about changing an important aspect of the game (AP) and its also about saying Over Powered units are fine, because I don't like my unit being Under Powered. I'm sure you can think of other ways that make them balanced, useable and fill a niche without making them over powered. A heavy bolter each??? That unit of 5 is dropping down 15 strength 5 AP 4 shots a turn while moving. That is horrible for xenos armies like Dark Eldar (A bit biased maybe, but that unit Is OP to my army) or Tau/Necron infantry based lists. A 3+ save is meant to be extraordinary protection (As said in the Eldar codex, where there 3+ is 'one of the best suits of armour in the known galaxy'), having entire units which simply poop all over anything under that line is simply not good balance when so many armies pay through they're noses to even get a save vs bolter fire!
1+ Save? How is that fair vs armies that can't muster much/any AP 1 weapons? Once again, Dark Eldar are left in the dust, turning their only form of defence to put a stupid amount of splinter rounds into them (18 shots per terminator...). How about Tyranids without a single piece of AP 1 save for psykic powers. Or Orks with only their shock attack gun. Then giving re-rolls would increase the survivability of the 'characters' by to much? How about increasing everythings survivability off the scale! That's 36 wounds before a single terminator falls. OP as anything.
Its not terminators that are bad, its the Meta, don't go around making a unit over powered to compensate for something that changes with each new codex release. How much is a power fist? 20ish points. How much is artificer armour? 20ish points. Storm Bolters are 10pts. You have a bargain in your terminators, why so much hate for them?
By your logic then, Warp Talons are some great, unappreciated unit. A 3+, 5++ Jump Infantry model with two LCs, all for only 30 points? Must be a hell of a bargain right? Right? Go find me a CSM player that actually uses them, I'll wait...
You're looking at Terminators in a vacuum. Compared to other units in the new codex, especially Honor Guard and Veterans, they are way over costed for what they bring. And thats not considering the meta.
As for you DE/Nids comment. Yeah they don't have AP1, SO WHAT!? With the amount of shots the average DE/Nid army can put forth, you kill them by weight of fire. That has always been the best way to kill termies: weight of fire. 18 shots to bring down one termie? SO WHAT!? Any decent DE army should be able to put out hundreds of poisoned shots pert turn, and if it can't well then frankly, its a crappy army list. And thats not even considering the fact that DE are one of, if not the fastest army in the game, meaning you should be dancing circles around the termies with your transports while they never get a chance to assault you. And thats not also considering the fact that DE have the only unit in the game (Incubi) that even Hammernators do NOT want to be in assault with...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/15 03:17:40
GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants"
+10 points a model for one round of fire for each special ammo seems rather steep, GK get +1S to all their bolter types for 20 points a squad, and that can be 10 guys.
Maybe HB replacing SB combined with the one army chapter tactics would be OP, only had the chance to read through a friends SM codex once. But I would rather see one unbalanced unit then all non assault terminators being fairly weak pointsinks.
I like the idea of the 1+ save. That is more in keeping with the idea that they can withstand devastating firepower, much like they could way back in 2nd edition.
Giving them a rule that lets them reroll their armor or invulnerable save would make them massively more survivable, but might be too powerful with character models.
I don't like the idea that comes with these because its about changing an important aspect of the game (AP) and its also about saying Over Powered units are fine, because I don't like my unit being Under Powered. I'm sure you can think of other ways that make them balanced, useable and fill a niche without making them over powered. A heavy bolter each??? That unit of 5 is dropping down 15 strength 5 AP 4 shots a turn while moving. That is horrible for xenos armies like Dark Eldar (A bit biased maybe, but that unit Is OP to my army) or Tau/Necron infantry based lists. A 3+ save is meant to be extraordinary protection (As said in the Eldar codex, where there 3+ is 'one of the best suits of armour in the known galaxy'), having entire units which simply poop all over anything under that line is simply not good balance when so many armies pay through they're noses to even get a save vs bolter fire!
1+ Save? How is that fair vs armies that can't muster much/any AP 1 weapons? Once again, Dark Eldar are left in the dust, turning their only form of defence to put a stupid amount of splinter rounds into them (18 shots per terminator...). How about Tyranids without a single piece of AP 1 save for psykic powers. Or Orks with only their shock attack gun. Then giving re-rolls would increase the survivability of the 'characters' by to much? How about increasing everythings survivability off the scale! That's 36 wounds before a single terminator falls. OP as anything.
Its not terminators that are bad, its the Meta, don't go around making a unit over powered to compensate for something that changes with each new codex release. How much is a power fist? 20ish points. How much is artificer armour? 20ish points. Storm Bolters are 10pts. You have a bargain in your terminators, why so much hate for them?
By your logic then, Warp Talons are some great, unappreciated unit. A 3+, 5++ Jump Infantry model with two LCs, all for only 30 points? Must be a hell of a bargain right? Right? Go find me a CSM player that actually uses them, I'll wait...
You're looking at Terminators in a vacuum. Compared to other units in the new codex, especially Honor Guard and Veterans, they are way over costed for what they bring. And thats not considering the meta.
As for you DE/Nids comment. Yeah they don't have AP1, SO WHAT!? With the amount of shots the average DE/Nid army can put forth, you kill them by weight of fire. That has always been the best way to kill termies: weight of fire. 18 shots to bring down one termie? SO WHAT!? Any decent DE army should be able to put out hundreds of poisoned shots pert turn, and if it can't well then frankly, its a crappy army list. And thats not even considering the fact that DE are one of, if not the fastest army in the game, meaning you should be dancing circles around the termies with your transports while they never get a chance to assault you. And thats not also considering the fact that DE have the only unit in the game (Incubi) that even Hammernators do NOT want to be in assault with...[/spoiler]
all of the above is prety much correct. But with only one wound, and limited use and delivery methods, they may seem great in a vacuum, but not when compared to other choices that are either more specialized, or just plain more powerful.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/10/15 04:20:04
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Camkierhi wrote: thats the best group of ass I've seen on the net, and I've looked at alot.
Make them T6?? or T5? or give them 2 wounds each? . T6 /T5 would cut out half of the, "I shoot my flashlights at you and you die" sillyness. oh give us an option to give all terminators FnP?
Morris, tragically sold his soul to the Chaos Gods of Flowers, Dancing, Laughter and Friendship. The Morris Heresy is on record as the shortest and least successful heresy in Imperial history.
Camkierhi wrote: thats the best group of ass I've seen on the net, and I've looked at alot.
Rumbleguts wrote: +10 points a model for one round of fire for each special ammo seems rather steep, GK get +1S to all their bolter types for 20 points a squad, and that can be 10 guys.
Maybe HB replacing SB combined with the one army chapter tactics would be OP, only had the chance to read through a friends SM codex once. But I would rather see one unbalanced unit then all non assault terminators being fairly weak pointsinks.
I like the idea of the 1+ save. That is more in keeping with the idea that they can withstand devastating firepower, much like they could way back in 2nd edition.
Giving them a rule that lets them reroll their armor or invulnerable save would make them massively more survivable, but might be too powerful with character models.
I don't like the idea that comes with these because its about changing an important aspect of the game (AP) and its also about saying Over Powered units are fine, because I don't like my unit being Under Powered. I'm sure you can think of other ways that make them balanced, useable and fill a niche without making them over powered. A heavy bolter each??? That unit of 5 is dropping down 15 strength 5 AP 4 shots a turn while moving. That is horrible for xenos armies like Dark Eldar (A bit biased maybe, but that unit Is OP to my army) or Tau/Necron infantry based lists. A 3+ save is meant to be extraordinary protection (As said in the Eldar codex, where there 3+ is 'one of the best suits of armour in the known galaxy'), having entire units which simply poop all over anything under that line is simply not good balance when so many armies pay through they're noses to even get a save vs bolter fire!
1+ Save? How is that fair vs armies that can't muster much/any AP 1 weapons? Once again, Dark Eldar are left in the dust, turning their only form of defence to put a stupid amount of splinter rounds into them (18 shots per terminator...). How about Tyranids without a single piece of AP 1 save for psykic powers. Or Orks with only their shock attack gun. Then giving re-rolls would increase the survivability of the 'characters' by to much? How about increasing everythings survivability off the scale! That's 36 wounds before a single terminator falls. OP as anything.
Its not terminators that are bad, its the Meta, don't go around making a unit over powered to compensate for something that changes with each new codex release. How much is a power fist? 20ish points. How much is artificer armour? 20ish points. Storm Bolters are 10pts. You have a bargain in your terminators, why so much hate for them?
By your logic then, Warp Talons are some great, unappreciated unit. A 3+, 5++ Jump Infantry model with two LCs, all for only 30 points? Must be a hell of a bargain right? Right? Go find me a CSM player that actually uses them, I'll wait...They are a bargain, doesn't mean they are a must take, you get more then you pay for all right, but that doesn't mean you want everything you pay for. Also lack of grenades is troubling, and they also compete with the helldrake. They pull a hell of a job when deepstriked into tau though
You're looking at Terminators in a vacuum. Compared to other units in the new codex, especially Honor Guard and Veterans, they are way over costed for what they bring. And thats not considering the meta. In a good Vanguard unit with jump packs and some power weapons they end up costing similarly anyway, an they still have different roles. Honour Guard are a lot better now, but still lack the deep strike option termies get, making a transport mandatory. How do I not look at them in a vacuum? How are you meant to analyse a unit without taking its statline and wargear into context of the price?
As for you DE/Nids comment. Yeah they don't have AP1, SO WHAT!? With the amount of shots the average DE/Nid army can put forth, you kill them by weight of fire. That has always been the best way to kill termies: weight of fire. 18 shots to bring down one termie? SO WHAT!? Any decent DE army should be able to put out hundreds of poisoned shots pert turn, and if it can't well then frankly, its a crappy army list. And thats not even considering the fact that DE are one of, if not the fastest army in the game, meaning you should be dancing circles around the termies with your transports while they never get a chance to assault you. And thats not also considering the fact that DE have the only unit in the game (Incubi) that even Hammernators do NOT want to be in assault with...[color=red] but that's not the point. That means that these armies have to be shoe horned into specific army lists (Venom spam, Devil Gaunts) simply because they have nothing that can beat terminators anymore. Nidzilla? Dead, Monsterous Creatures are AP 2, so even the thought of multiple terminators would kill the list. Any decent DE army? What about a wych themed army? Or a Coven army? Or a Reaver/Baron army? These lists would die as they won't have the amount of wounds to inflict while those CML/Powerfist guys control my movement. DE NEED to be in control of the movement. What does fast have to do with deep striking CML/AC dropping down on my home objective? You don't win matches by running away, and dark elder transports tend not to stay functional when shot at wuth multiple rocket launchers. Also Incubi Vs hammernators and you think incubi win? Ever? Its no invul vs a 3+, see how that works out.
Honestly, lets keep it civil here. These are just ideas people throw around for fun since any rules used are only going to be on home tables between friends. Not like GW trolls these sites looking for ideas, I hope.
I actually play tyranids, and I think that standard terminators are seriously lacking in ranged firepower considering how easy it is for them to die to mass light fire, and close combat is worse when you throw in poison. Heavy bolters was just throwing out an imperial weapon that exists. Something more balanced would keep the basic stats of the stormbolter but maybe increase the range to 30 and make it assault 3. Yes its 15 shots in a 5 man squad, but they are still only AP 5 and str 4. Not terribly powerful considering the unit that is carrying it. They need a bit more range and a bit more shots per model, which was why I thought of the heavy bolter, its the next standard upgrade from the stormbolter.
Its funny though. It seems like many people hate the Centurion unit for a variety of reasons. I think they need a point reduction but otherwise I love them and think that this is a lot closer to what non-assault terminators should have been like. Heavier weapons then regular space marines can carry and fire effectively while moving, special rules for firing multiple weapons, etc. But now that we have Centurions, where does that leave standard terminators.
Funny thing is, terminators way back in 2nd edition were more like this. Only terminators could carry thunderhammers and stormshields. Those systems required too much power and strength for regular space marine armor. Same thing with lightning claw., Assault cannons/cyclone missile launchers/hvy flamers are still terminator only so far as man portable systems go. Although a SM hero could buy a combi bolter bolter it still wasn't a stormbolter as I recall. The bolter bolter let you fire two shots, but the stormbolter used a ... I want to call it a jam die but I know that was our own nickname, that could allow it to get 3 shots. Averaged around 2. I seem to recall the fluff on them saying that the recoil on a storm bolter was too much for even a space marine to use unbraced.
Let them take an additional heavy weapon at 5 men, let them take Veteran Skills. It wasn't OP when that was available in Codex: Black Templars, but it also wasn't UP. They were pricey, sure, but they were durable and packed a mean punch.
That or give them Special ammo for their Storm Bolters. It never made sense to me that Sternguard got that but not Terminators.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Let them take an additional heavy weapon at 5 men, let them take Veteran Skills. It wasn't OP when that was available in Codex: Black Templars, but it also wasn't UP. They were pricey, sure, but they were durable and packed a mean punch.
That or give them Special ammo for their Storm Bolters. It never made sense to me that Sternguard got that but not Terminators.
^^ This. Having 2 heavy weapons in 5 man squads is fine and as we've already seen it's not OP. Give everyone that doesn't take a special weapon special issue ammo and now you've got a real choice to make (and it makes sense as the gunner is to worried about employing his CML or AC to switch between ammo types). Now you have a versatile terminator unit that can put out a lot of hate (4 heavy weapons/ 10 man termie squad, not that it matters b/c people would just do MSU units anyway...) and has a versatile reaction to multiple situations with the special ammo. No points adjustment needed.
One of them filthy casuals...
2013/10/15 13:48:57
Subject: Making regular (Tactical) Terminators worth taking, how?
Overhaul the Stormbolter. Make it salvo 3/5 or assault 4, something to really lay down a massive amount of fire as they are always depicted.
Think about it, originally Stormbolters were effectively 2 bolters strapped together (which is why Chaos termies have combi-bolters), so they should be about to spit out twice as much fire as a standard bolter. Since SB are more refined combi-bolters, assault 4 makes the most sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/15 13:49:13
Based on these ideas, I'm thinking maybe the storm bolter should have two profiles like Psycannons: Either Assault 2 or Heavy 4. That way PA marines can still take them if they want (not that I see anyone ever doing this anymore) and terminators reap the benefits of their Relentless rule.
It would make GK termies with psybolt ammo broken though...
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