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 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Also how does Helbrecht beat Ghazz? Ap 3 Vs. 2+ armour save. T 4 Vs, strength 10 and a bunch of attacks. Plot armour aside, Ghaz wins full stop.

There's a reason this thread is in the background section, just saying. Fluff-wise Helbrecht shanked a Daemon Prince to death with his combat knife when he was a mere Initiate.

In terms of fluff, Helbrecht is a much better strategist and is easily capable of having Ghaz shot from orbit or by a massive amount of firepower from ground forces.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Also how does Helbrecht beat Ghazz? Ap 3 Vs. 2+ armour save. T 4 Vs, strength 10 and a bunch of attacks. Plot armour aside, Ghaz wins full stop.

He "beats" Ghazzy by making sure he dies... didn't say he would do so and survive himself.

Specifically though, superior martial skill. I hear the ol' Marshal is pretty nifty with that massive sword of his. I suppose he could "play is safe" by just ramming their flagships together and pulling the warp overload trick... but my way is much more dramatic, and befitting the Templar way, methinks. Helbrecht will want the pleasure of running Ghazzy through in personal combat, even if it means being crushed by the latter's power claw in the process, at least his dying act will see Ghazzy dead once and for all.

Like I said, it's a tough decision for Helbrecht to make. Well, he is a rampaging zealot marine, so maybe not that tough a decision after all...



Edit: ninja'd

... How does does Helbrecht beat Ghazzy? I understand plot armour but Ghazzy showed that not even the Dark Angels chapter can stop him. You all are making the same mistake that the commanders of the IOM do. You think Ghazzy is a regular boss who is just bigger and tougher and doesn't really lead his troops. Well you are wrong, Ghazzy is known for his ability to lead the ork troops with a skill unheard of in the ork kulture. Plus I'm pretty sure Ghazzy has more plot armour then Helbrecht, I mean I could be wrong on this one but Ghazzy is the mest well known ork out there and no seems to have a chance of stopping him.

Also don't forget about the WAAAAGHHH!!! field Orks employ. When orks gather in large numbers they generate a latent and powerful psykic field that basically amounts to changing the rules of the universe if enough orks believe it will happed. That's how all there scrap actually works as weapons. So now imagine that not only does Ghaz have plot armour, but he has the reality altering powers of the biggest ork Waaagh! behind him who believe he is invincible. For all we know, he actually might be, if enough orks believe he is.

Orks, because orks cant lose.

More seriously, orks still because cant Imhotekh not figure out ork strategy and always seem to throw him off?

The orks took on the whole planet of armageddon, they can probably break 1 chapter of SM, even if it is the biggest.

Just remembered, Isn't Helbrecht Chillin' with Old Man Yarrick? That's gotta be a large advantage versus the Orks.

And Helbrecht could beat Ghazzy with those fancy Templar Chapter Tactics (Still incredibly unlikely though).

I would reckon that it would be rock paper scissors, Necrons crushing the Templars, templars(with Yarrick's help) destroying Orks and Orks utterly wreaking havoc on those space 'gyptians.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Also don't forget about the WAAAAGHHH!!! field Orks employ. When orks gather in large numbers they generate a latent and powerful psykic field that basically amounts to changing the rules of the universe if enough orks believe it will happed. That's how all there scrap actually works as weapons. So now imagine that not only does Ghaz have plot armour, but he has the reality altering powers of the biggest ork Waaagh! behind him who believe he is invincible. For all we know, he actually might be, if enough orks believe he is.

Well depending on how large the battle is the Necrons could be employing Transcendent C'tan, and depending on how many Shard's were used to make it, it could be close enough to a real C'tan to likewise change the Laws of Physics. Assuming that section of fluff hasn't been retconned, the C'tan could do it at a whim

 Deadshot wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Also don't forget about the WAAAAGHHH!!! field Orks employ. When orks gather in large numbers they generate a latent and powerful psykic field that basically amounts to changing the rules of the universe if enough orks believe it will happed. That's how all there scrap actually works as weapons. So now imagine that not only does Ghaz have plot armour, but he has the reality altering powers of the biggest ork Waaagh! behind him who believe he is invincible. For all we know, he actually might be, if enough orks believe he is.

Well depending on how large the battle is the Necrons could be employing Transcendent C'tan, and depending on how many Shard's were used to make it, it could be close enough to a real C'tan to likewise change the Laws of Physics. Assuming that section of fluff hasn't been retconned, the C'tan could do it at a whim

In which case the Templars have the reincarnated Emperor of Mankind on their side. The Necrons wouldn't be insane enough to unleash a near-full C'tan back into the world anyway.

Even a Transcedent C'tan would be enormously destructive going off the TT rules. Those things are nasty!

Orkz win cuz we da strongest der iz. Not even an Ork player and I love those Green Skins XD Still rooting for them because they have Coop and Kamina as their gods. Orkz win be default right there.

BT fan, but orks take this one.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Helbrecht won the rematch though.

Templars win. Fly ship into middle of battle, detonate Warp Drives. Success!

Helbrecht won an ambush with his fleet.

Imotekh's entire empire would make Helbrecht and Ghazghkull weep gentle tears of sorrow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Depends on how we define Helbrecht's fleet. He was overall void commander during Armageddon III after all.

He doesn't have a fleet that size or power on average though, not nearly.

And it still might not be enough, considering Imotekh rules over something like two hundred worlds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

willhman wrote:
... How does does Helbrecht beat Ghazzy? I understand plot armour but Ghazzy showed that not even the Dark Angels chapter can stop him. You all are making the same mistake that the commanders of the IOM do. You think Ghazzy is a regular boss who is just bigger and tougher and doesn't really lead his troops. Well you are wrong, Ghazzy is known for his ability to lead the ork troops with a skill unheard of in the ork kulture. Plus I'm pretty sure Ghazzy has more plot armour then Helbrecht, I mean I could be wrong on this one but Ghazzy is the mest well known ork out there and no seems to have a chance of stopping him.

Belial shouldn't be as formidable an opponent as Helbrecht, IMO.

But then again Imotekh humiliated him in single combat so hey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In which case the Templars have the reincarnated Emperor of Mankind on their side. The Necrons wouldn't be insane enough to unleash a near-full C'tan back into the world anyway.

The Transcendant C'tan is a being that the Necrons actually have and do employ in particularly brutal battles though.

Basically they are just really big C'tan shards.

In space, I think Necrons take it, due to superior tech and maneuverability. Just because Imotekh can't predict Orky strategy doesn't mean he can't blow them up.

On the ground, Orks for sure. If only because Ghazzy's Waaagh!!! includes enough Orks to soak every bit of munitions the BT forces have without breaking a sweat, while simultaneously overwhelming the Necron positions.

I'm assuming that all involved parties are bringing every resource they can reasonably bring to the table. I'm also assuming all forces are stripped of plot armour (though the implications of Orkish Waaagh!!power potentially granting Ghazzy for-real plot armor are...disturbing, to say the least).

Yarrick shows up, riding his Baneblade that was infiltrated by Creed, fires Marbo out of the main gun on Ghaz who dies.

With that done, Helbrecth goes on a suicide rush agaisnt Imotekh and they both die.

The IG is triumphant again, Huzzah!

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Helbrecht won the rematch though.

Templars win. Fly ship into middle of battle, detonate Warp Drives. Success!

Helbrecht won an ambush with his fleet.

Imotekh's entire empire would make Helbrecht and Ghazghkull weep gentle tears of sorrow.

Helbrecht won an ambush, followed by winning 1v1 forcing Imo to teleport away and make a run for it. It's expanded upon in the new Codex: Space Marines.

Imotekh would actually have to put effort into this, and he would win.

Yarrick headbutts Ghazghkull and becomes the bestest warboss ever, uniting the orkz and spehss mehrines who proceed to go out and crush the robo tomb kings.

It's kannon

 Void__Dragon wrote:

The Transcendant C'tan is a being that the Necrons actually have and do employ in particularly brutal battles though.

I'd assumed they were incredibly rare though. Imotekh might not have one. Do we even know if he has any C'tan Shards? They'd be spread pretty thinly across millions of Tomb Worlds after all.

If anyone has C'tan Shards, or Transcedent C'tan, it'll be the Stormlord. IIRC, he's basically top of the metaphorical food chain. I think the Silent King is above him and that's about it.

 Inky wrote:
Just remembered, Isn't Helbrecht Chillin' with Old Man Yarrick? That's gotta be a large advantage versus the Orks.

And Helbrecht could beat Ghazzy with those fancy Templar Chapter Tactics (Still incredibly unlikely though).

I would reckon that it would be rock paper scissors, Necrons crushing the Templars, templars(with Yarrick's help) destroying Orks and Orks utterly wreaking havoc on those space 'gyptians.

Gazzkul EASILY outsmarted Yarrick at every turn in chains of Golgotha. He has also repeatedly outsmarted IG commanders and Space marines.

 Deadshot wrote:
If anyone has C'tan Shards, or Transcedent C'tan, it'll be the Stormlord. IIRC, he's basically top of the metaphorical food chain. I think the Silent King is above him and that's about it.

No, Imotekh is above even the Silent King in military power.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

The Transcendant C'tan is a being that the Necrons actually have and do employ in particularly brutal battles though.

I'd assumed they were incredibly rare though. Imotekh might not have one. Do we even know if he has any C'tan Shards? They'd be spread pretty thinly across millions of Tomb Worlds after all.

Not with there being tens of billions of shards, they aren't. C'Tan, you see, were really big....

The Stormlord is probably in possession, at this point, of scores of shards of various C'Tan, which he probably shoves into, and splits apart from, one another, as suits his whim and tactical need for that battle. Why? Because he's a jerk and he can do these things.

Using the game rules as a guideline, you can have a C'Tan shard with two nifty powers for the price of a kitted-out tank or a mid-range deathstar unit. Kind of expensive, sure, but not so much as to indicate you only see them in 5K+ Points games or anything. The Transcended ones are Apocalypse-only and ruin entire worlds.

 Happyjew wrote:
In the end? The Eldar. This was all carefully arranged by Eldrad himself to take out some Necrons and divert a Waaagh that would have caught up a few Maiden worlds.

This. I approve.

Zaki, your Avatar - Porco Rosso?

 Happyjew wrote:
Zaki, your Avatar - Porco Rosso?

Of course.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Zaki, your Avatar - Porco Rosso?

Of course.

indeed...

 Deadshot wrote:
If anyone has C'tan Shards, or Transcedent C'tan, it'll be the Stormlord. IIRC, he's basically top of the metaphorical food chain. I think the Silent King is above him and that's about it.

That's a fair point.

Psienesis wrote:Not with there being tens of billions of shards, they aren't. C'Tan, you see, were really big....

Are the numbers ever actually stated? Each of them is supposed to have the power of a whole C'tan, aren't they? They just can't remember how to do most of the stuff.

What's up with the background provided for the Transcendent C'tan? Isn't turning one loose the thing they're supposed to be terrified of? With any C'tan Shard usually only used in extreme times?

I can't imagine a Transcendant C'tan having the power of a C'tan in its prime.

Those guys flew around blowing up solar systems in fistfights with each other back in the day.

In fairness, even the new C'tan, fully powered, were nothing compared to the old. I remember in the old fluff in particular that the C'tan could rewrite Laws of Physics at a whim and could do almost anything. Except survive the Warp. The C'tan were literally the gods of the matierial universe.