Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When playing a game of tabletop miniture. I try to imagine what I need to do to let my opponent enjoy the game as much as I do. Not set my standards and demand my opponent to reach it or go home.

I personally enjoy playing with painted minitures. It brings a visual enjoyment to the enture game. Playing with grey minies is like playing on a SNES. Great games, but poor visual compaired with PS3s and Xboxs.

I'm a slow painter so I understand why some hobbiest doesn't paint. I also understand with how quickly 40k meta changes, players who really wants a top tier army will be very difficult to have the newest models painited every few months. So I'm OK with people who don't paint armies, as long as they enjoy the game.

I also have an impression that attitudes have changed (for worse from my perspective), most peole used to paint their models before playing, now playing with unpainted ones seems to be pretty common practice. And as it has been already pointed out, in historical wargames unpainted armies are unthinkable. I don't know why the culture has changed in GW games; the designers themselves certainly promote the painting side of the hobby, and we of course never see (or even hear about) an unpainted army used in a game in WD.

I agree with this.

I think the turning point was when RTTs and GTs began dropping soft scores from tournaments (like painting, sportsmanship, comp). I even remember when the "pub quiz" would delineate the top bracket at a GT. Once hard boyz came around this really attracted a certain mindset of gamers where painting was definitely not important. Once GW pulled out of tournaments and TOs were left to their own devices there was never really a return to comp and soft scores with the exception of certain European Fantasy circuits. So, this is what we are left with where winning and battle points are all that matters (used to be the "Best General" prize instead of "Overall Winner").

I have also come across players who don't paint because they will eBay their army for the next new codex creep or perceived power combo. Unpainted minis will sell more quickly as they are not charging a premium for being "pro painted" and it gives the buyer the option to paint in whatever scheme they choose. These people don't really care that they get what they paid for they are just looking to offset the cost of the new army.

Its so much easier to learn to paint these days with the numerous tutorial videos on Youtube, choice of paints and pigments currently available from compainies, and even the cost of airbrushes & equipment going substantially down over the last few years. It just takes some time and some effort. Dakkadakka has a lot of info on painting and is great place for feedback.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

I'm sure you've heard of the SoB update where they got a free Fortress of Redemption. The one where the point costs were left to the wayside was DA vs. CSM if I remember right. Does this mean they advocate giving away free Fortifications and loosely handling point values? Giving units more special weapons than they are allowed? Absolutely not.

Off-topic, perhaps, but I would suggest that they were, in fact, advocating more "free-form" gaming, away from the constraints of the Force Org chart and the specifics of the army lists. Especially if they actually drew attention to that fact. Not to the extent that I'd prefer, but at least it's something.

Hey, pal. I know you're new and all, but do you want to try quoting the right people?

I am known as a very slow painter and I do enjoy painting but over the years I have played with a lot of unpainted armies and feel embarased about it. These days I have a young family am at college again and work full time so painting is a luxury I don't have the time for. But strangely I feel the pull of painting more now than ever before.

rigeld2 wrote:

It's almost like those steps don't take an equal amount of time or something. That "ONE" more step is in actuality hundreds of hours for many people. And you're advocating doing that before moving on at all.

Order is irrelevant... (Except for buying and building). I'm just saying, you can't tell someone that paints he's taking the game too seriously. Yeah, painting takes a long time for lots of people, myself included. But just because something takes a long time doesn't meant it's not worth doing. Takes time to save up to buy the models, takes time to put them together, takes a lot of time and effort to learn to play and win games against others who have learned. Everything takes time. Some people can paint the hell out of things fast, and take longer to learn the game.

I've never said you can't play unless they're painted, I'd just prefer to see armies painted then not.

I'm just saying, you can't tell someone that paints he's taking the game too seriously.

But no one's actually said that. It's possible I missed a post or two, but I've probably come closer than anyone in the thread to saying that and even I didn't actually say that. The people being accused of taking the game too seriously (from my point of view) are NOT the ones who simply prefer painted armies, but rather the ones who seem to be actively looking down on those who don't paint and calling them names or making character judgements because of it (i.e. "That guy with the grey plastic MUST be lazy ...).

I prefer to play painted armies myself and I tend to only deploy painted armies. In all honesty, if two people are standing at two tables and one guy has a painted army and one doesn't - yeah, I'll go for the painted player first. The thing is, if there's time I'll still play the unpainted player after that and even if there isn't time, I will in no way make them feel bad for not having a painted army. It's the players that get sanctimonious about painting that are taking it too seriously.

 kronk wrote:
As I said earlier in the thread, chick dig painted minis. So paint your minis.

Also, shower (with soap) and use deodorant.

Given that the "chicks" I've seen play often don't have painted or fully painted armies I'd say that probably isn't true. It is something more to the tune of, "chicks could careless what you do with your toys."

They do however care about the showering with soap haha.


I am probably in the lazy category judging by statements here. I work a ridiculous amount of hours each week and when I get a day off I choose to unwind and play the game much more often then paint the models. So given how much I work and how little time I have to devote to my hobby after social life and such I am a pretty big lazy jerk it seems. Sucks being so lazy all the time. I should definitely do more painting in the 6-7 hours every day I have before work starts all over again.

I am probably in the lazy category judging by statements here. I work a ridiculous amount of hours each week and when I get a day off I choose to unwind and play the game much more often then paint the models. So given how much I work and how little time I have to devote to my hobby after social life and such I am a pretty big lazy jerk it seems. Sucks being so lazy all the time. I should definitely do more painting in the 6-7 hours every day I have before work starts all over again.

Well, it's not just that you're lazy. You're also having fun the wrong way. I think that's very selfish of you. Perhaps this isn't the hobby for you?

Seriously though, that's exactly what I'm talking about. For some people, painting just isn't in the cards all the time. I would gladly play your unpainted army if it meant the group got one more player!

Panties really are being twisted all over the place in this thread. How about people actually read what others are saying and take a few moments to think about things before they post some hyperbolic, point scoring, quasi-rant?

Tycho wrote:

I am probably in the lazy category judging by statements here. I work a ridiculous amount of hours each week and when I get a day off I choose to unwind and play the game much more often then paint the models. So given how much I work and how little time I have to devote to my hobby after social life and such I am a pretty big lazy jerk it seems. Sucks being so lazy all the time. I should definitely do more painting in the 6-7 hours every day I have before work starts all over again.

Well, it's not just that you're lazy. You're also having fun the wrong way. I think that's very selfish of you. Perhaps this isn't the hobby for you?

No, he just is prioritizing playing over painting. He is being lazy in that he is skipping over an entire, major part of the hobby in order to play more games. Which is fine, but he is still not fully participating in the hobby.

I work and go to university full time and don't really enjoy painting that much. However I always field fully painted. If you have time for wargaming at all then you have time for painting. It's all about prioritizing the different facets of the hobby. Maybe you play next week instead of this week in order to paint. Or maybe you don't because you're lazy. I don't care but a spade is a spade.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Panties really are being twisted all over the place in this thread. How about people actually read what others are saying and take a few moments to think about things before they post some hyperbolic, point scoring, quasi-rant?

Because, that would be booorinng...

No, he just is prioritizing playing over painting. He is being lazy in that he is skipping over an entire, major part of the hobby in order to play more games. Which is fine, but he is still not fully participating in the hobby.

I work and go to university full time and don't really enjoy painting that much. However I always field fully painted. If you have time for wargaming at all then you have time for painting. It's all about prioritizing the different facets of the hobby. Maybe you play next week instead of this week in order to paint. Or maybe you don't because you're lazy. I don't care but a spade is a spade.

So in your mind, the only possible reason someone could have for not painting is because they have a personality flaw. lol I can't wait to see what happens when you start a family ...

SilverMK2 - you were saying something about hyperbole?

Tycho wrote:

No, he just is prioritizing playing over painting. He is being lazy in that he is skipping over an entire, major part of the hobby in order to play more games. Which is fine, but he is still not fully participating in the hobby.

I work and go to university full time and don't really enjoy painting that much. However I always field fully painted. If you have time for wargaming at all then you have time for painting. It's all about prioritizing the different facets of the hobby. Maybe you play next week instead of this week in order to paint. Or maybe you don't because you're lazy. I don't care but a spade is a spade.

So in your mind, the only possible reason someone could have for not painting is because they have a personality flaw. lol I can't wait to see what happens when you start a family ...

SilverMK2 - you were saying something about hyperbole?

You take the time to assemble, what makes taking the time to paint so far fetched?

I mean I go months without having any time for any wargaming endeavor, yet I still manage to slowly paint my armies over time. Do you not see the flaw in your reasoning? And btw no, that's not what I was saying. And who's talking about hyperbole?

 Las wrote:
You take the time to assemble, what makes taking the time to paint so far fetched? So somehow building minis is always an option regardless of any kind of commitments?

I mean I go months without having any time for any wargaming endeavor, yet I still manage to slowly paint my armies over time. Do you not see the flaw in your reasoning?

To build an entire Tac squad box - maybe 2 hours (getting all the tools out, putting everything away). Total. Painting a single mini will take far longer than that (counting set up and take down).
Do you not see the flaw in your reasoning that they're equivalent?

It takes you over two hours to paint a single tac marine!?

 Las wrote:
It takes you over two hours to paint a single tac marine!?

It takes me 2 hours to paint one guardsman. Then there's basing. Tac marines take about as long. Sure, I can paint a marine in 15 minutes, but for a good paintjob it takes 2 hours.

_e

Counting setup and takedown, yes. 15-20 minutes to set up my area, about an hour and a half (counting time to wait between coats) to paint him, 15-20 minutes to put it all away.

So maybe not "far longer" as I initially said, but a very long time. And no, leaving my paint setup out isn't an option.

Something weird is going on here. So you care enough about painting to spend two hours on a single troop choice mini but not enough to mind fielding grey armies?

Tycho wrote:
So in your mind, the only possible reason someone could have for not painting is because they have a personality flaw. lol I can't wait to see what happens when you start a family ...

SilverMK2 - you were saying something about hyperbole?

Yes, yes I was. And I believe I also mentioned taking a second to actually read what someone had posted and think about what they were actually saying before replying...

rigeld2 wrote:
Painting a single mini will take far longer than that (counting set up and take down).

A more than flawed counter-point. I dare say very few, if any, painters will do set up and take down for a single model*. It's called economy of time and effort. Even newbies will know, and if not they will likely be advised, to do their minis in blocks at least squad sized (5-10 troops, give or take).

Getting TT standard is neither hard nor that time consuming. If you've got the time for collecting, building, reading/learning the rules and gaming, you should have the time management skills to also get some painting done, even if it means you do it little by little. What's more, once you start and carry on, you will get better and quicker at it, too.



*Edit: I should clarify that I'm excluding large, complex, or unique, individual projects with this statement, and mean a basic troop choice/footslogger. I know this seems like common sense, but with the way this thread is, I just thought I'd spell it out now lest someone take my words and run wild with them again...

Yes, yes I was. And I believe I also mentioned taking a second to actually read what someone had posted and think about what they were actually saying before replying...

Maybe you play next week instead of this week in order to paint. Or maybe you don't because you're lazy. I don't care but a spade is a spade.

I'd say he's pretty clear with is point there. The one and only reason in his mind that someone doesn't have painted armies is because they are lazy. Period.

It takes you over two hours to paint a single tac marine!?

It might seem far-fetched but I believe him. I've seen people at my club take even longer to do mediocre paint jobs. Even when I've shown them quicker/easier ways to do things they just really struggle with it, so I can definitely see someone taking that long.

 Las wrote:
Something weird is going on here. So you care enough about painting to spend two hours on a single troop choice mini but not enough to mind fielding grey armies?

I do. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and and am more of an all or nothing kind of guy. If I'm painting a model, it will look as good as I can make it. I will not rush through an army to get paint on it.

So, If I can't find time to paint an entire army to a standard I am comfortable with, I won't.


People can't judge how others choose to enjoy the hobby.

We have casual players, tournament players, hobbyists, and every combination and gradient inbetween. No one is right, and no one has the right to judge the other on how they enjoy the hobby.

That's part of my point - because it takes so long and leaving the station set up isn't possible, it's extremely hard to do it little by little.

And really - I don't paint much above tabletop standard - I don't enjoy painting so I do the minimum that looks good to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Las wrote:
Something weird is going on here. So you care enough about painting to spend two hours on a single troop choice mini but not enough to mind fielding grey armies?

It's not that I care enough - I'd rather not.
Because of attitudes like yours however, I feel that I have to. In addition, to use an army in a tournament I feel that I must have everything painted. That's why it's been over 2 years and I haven't gotten more than a tac squad done for my Marines. I rushed my Nids and am unhappy about it. I won't do that with my Marines.

Personally, when I take the time to paint a model, I want it to look great. Hence the long time to paint. I find I prefer the look of grey plastic over poorly/partially painted minis.
Also, collecting, building, and learning the rules doesn't take a lot of time. I can read the rules in class. It's easy to go and put one guy together. Painting requires a larger chunk of time to devote to, even for basic tabletop quality.

_e

Tycho wrote:

Yes, yes I was. And I believe I also mentioned taking a second to actually read what someone had posted and think about what they were actually saying before replying...

Maybe you play next week instead of this week in order to paint. Or maybe you don't because you're lazy. I don't care but a spade is a spade.

I'd say he's pretty clear with is point there. The one and only reason in his mind that someone doesn't have painted armies is because they are lazy. Period.

No, there are a variety of reasons why you might have an unpainted army. However choosing to completely ignore painting and make no effort to work towards accomplishing painting goals is laziness.

It does not make me mad in the least if a person doesn't paint their army.

I personally love to paint it is a nice way to relax while you listen to a bit of music and let your mind go numb after a long day. But I'm also a fairly slow painter and tend to occasionally play a game or two with the odd unpainted figure and nobody really seems to mind.

I think with a hobby you tend to get out of it what you put into it. So if someone wants to buy an army, put it together and play with it unpainted that is totally their decision because it is their money they are spending.

 Las wrote:

Tycho wrote:

No, he just is prioritizing playing over painting. He is being lazy in that he is skipping over an entire, major part of the hobby in order to play more games. Which is fine, but he is still not fully participating in the hobby.

I work and go to university full time and don't really enjoy painting that much. However I always field fully painted. If you have time for wargaming at all then you have time for painting. It's all about prioritizing the different facets of the hobby. Maybe you play next week instead of this week in order to paint. Or maybe you don't because you're lazy. I don't care but a spade is a spade.

Well, it's not just that you're lazy. You're also having fun the wrong way. I think that's very selfish of you. Perhaps this isn't the hobby for you?

No, he just is prioritizing playing over painting. He is being lazy in that he is skipping over an entire, major part of the hobby in order to play more games. Which is fine, but he is still not fully participating in the hobby.

I work and go to university full time and don't really enjoy painting that much. However I always field fully painted. If you have time for wargaming at all then you have time for painting. It's all about prioritizing the different facets of the hobby. Maybe you play next week instead of this week in order to paint. Or maybe you don't because you're lazy. I don't care but a spade is a spade.

im in the same boat as him, I don't have time to paint, or even play some weeks. so I should skip out on the part that I like, playing, for the part that I cant stand, or do well, otherwise im lazy? wow this reminds me of halo 3 era where people refused to play with others unless you had at least a 2.5 kd ratio, cause your playing the game wrong

I just don't understand why you would even choose wargaming as a hobby if you can't stand painting.

this reminds me of halo 3 era where people refused to play with others unless you had at least a 2.5 kd ratio, cause your playing the game wrong

Exactly.

I just don't understand why you would even choose wargaming as a hobby if you can't stand painting.

Wow ...

Having a good kd ratio is not an inherent part of halo, painting miniatures simply is for wargaming.