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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 17:47:47
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Lord of the Fleet
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A lot of 6th Edition army lists in this forum use the term "1999+1" when it comes to points. I can gather that it's something to do with the 2nd FOC you can take at 2000 points, but seeing as such a choice is optional, I don't really get why this is needed. My question simply is what does it mean and why is it necessary?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 17:55:11
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings
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It simply means '2000 points'. But that's not hip to say, you see, just like the word 'cool' sucks pl0x, too. Instead, you use 'YOLO SWAG'.
So, as you see, it's the new hip to use 1999+1 points, instead of 2000 points. It's necessary to be swag. I mean, you can see it in the armylist itself that there isn't a 2nd FOC, hmm?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 18:02:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 17:57:46
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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It's a "short" way of saying "Let's play 2000 points, but no second FOC."
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 18:00:40
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Morphing Obliterator
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at 2000 points you can use a double force org (i.e., 6 fast attack slots, 6 heavy support slots, etc)., which makes for some radically different lists than anything you can make at 1999 and under. early on in 6th, some tournaments were requiring 1999+1 point lists to avoid the double FOC thing. not sure if that's still the case, but I believe that's the origin of the term. I just translate it to "2000 points, single FOC."
edit: bah, happyjew types faster...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 18:01:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 18:03:10
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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2000 means you are allowed to take a second FOC.
1999+1 means you are NOT allowed to take a second FOC.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 18:05:00
Subject: Re:What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Douglas Bader
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It's a phrase invented by clever  s who think they've found a loophole in the double FOC rules where you can play a 1999 point game where you're allowed to go over by one point without it being a 2000 point game and enabling double FOC. The only reason to say "1999+1" instead of "2000 points, single FOC" is because these people are terrified of admitting that they're using a house rule to limit the FOC.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 18:08:04
Subject: Re:What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings
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Peregrine wrote:It's a phrase invented by clever  s who think they've found a loophole in the double FOC rules where you can play a 1999 point game where you're allowed to go over by one point without it being a 2000 point game and enabling double FOC. The only reason to say "1999+1" instead of "2000 points, single FOC" is because these people are terrified of admitting that they're using a house rule to limit the FOC.
Gee, I just find myself agreeing with you!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 18:52:29
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver
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1999+1 exists because some people actually like playing a balanced game, and some others just like to brainlessly spam the same unit 6 times.
Maybe someday they'll realise that playing with 6 Heldrakes and 4 Daemon Princes is actually the same as playing with 3 Heldrakes and 2 Daemon Princes... only it takes twice as long.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 18:52:41
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 18:54:45
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Douglas Bader
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Nym wrote:1999+1 exists because some people actually like playing a balanced game, and some others just like to brainlessly spam the same unit 6 times.
How is 1999+1 more balanced than 2000 points with single FOC?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 19:04:32
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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Peregrine wrote: Nym wrote:1999+1 exists because some people actually like playing a balanced game, and some others just like to brainlessly spam the same unit 6 times.
How is 1999+1 more balanced than 2000 points with single FOC?
At least at the start of 6th, it was the balance that we knew, rather then the unknown one. Which is when the 1999+1 showed up a lot more often. Some armies get more out of the double FOC then others. I agree that it isn't any more balanced, just that some people prefer to play that way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 19:05:53
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Douglas Bader
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Nevelon wrote:At least at the start of 6th, it was the balance that we knew, rather then the unknown one. Which is when the 1999+1 showed up a lot more often. Some armies get more out of the double FOC then others. I agree that it isn't any more balanced, just that some people prefer to play that way.
You missed the point a bit there. A 2000 point game with single FOC and a 1999+1 game are exactly identical, except the 1999+1 game allows the person organizing it to pretend that they aren't using a "no double FOC" house rule.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 19:14:50
Subject: Re:What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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1999+1 = 2k with no double force org
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 19:45:44
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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Peregrine wrote: Nevelon wrote:At least at the start of 6th, it was the balance that we knew, rather then the unknown one. Which is when the 1999+1 showed up a lot more often. Some armies get more out of the double FOC then others. I agree that it isn't any more balanced, just that some people prefer to play that way.
You missed the point a bit there. A 2000 point game with single FOC and a 1999+1 game are exactly identical, except the 1999+1 game allows the person organizing it to pretend that they aren't using a "no double FOC" house rule.
I don't think they are pretending. It's just a shorthand way of explaining house rules. By phrasing it as 1999+1 they cut of any RAW arguments with the double FOC rules.
It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Two ways of writing the same rules modification. I don't see any malice or subterfuge in the 1999+1 phrasing. It's pretty obvious what's going on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 19:47:49
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Douglas Bader
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Oh, they are. You must have missed all the people congratulating themselves for being so clever and finding the "loophole" that lets you play single- FOC at 2000 points while still following the standard rules.
By phrasing it as 1999+1 they cut of any RAW arguments with the double FOC rules.
Saying "2000 points, you may not use the double FOC rule" also cuts out any possible arguments. It just requires admitting that you're playing a house-ruled game.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 20:46:04
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Peregrine wrote: Nym wrote:1999+1 exists because some people actually like playing a balanced game, and some others just like to brainlessly spam the same unit 6 times.
How is 1999+1 more balanced than 2000 points with single FOC?
Or just playing 1999 points, and not needing a house rule to keep the second FOC at bay?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/23 20:46:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 20:53:29
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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Peregrine wrote:You missed the point a bit there. A 2000 point game with single FOC and a 1999+1 game are exactly identical, except the 1999+1 game allows the person organizing it to pretend that they aren't using a "no double FOC" house rule.
No, it's the same except that '1999+1' is shorten than '2000 but you can only take one FOC'
It's the same reason why we abbreviate 2000 to 2k and other things.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 21:02:43
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Peregrine wrote:
Oh, they are. You must have missed all the people congratulating themselves for being so clever and finding the "loophole" that lets you play single- FOC at 2000 points while still following the standard rules.
By phrasing it as 1999+1 they cut of any RAW arguments with the double FOC rules.
Saying "2000 points, you may not use the double FOC rule" also cuts out any possible arguments. It just requires admitting that you're playing a house-ruled game.
I say 1999+1 because everyone knows what that means. I could also say 2000 and no second FOC, but I've chosen to say it the first way and that's the whole reason for it. Really weird things piss you off.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 21:38:18
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver
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Judging by his sig, this guy obviously has a problem with house rules. Maybe a house rule stole his lunchbag when he was a kid or something... Or maybe he keeps buying expensive and OP Forgeworld stuff and nobody wants to play with him.
Unfortunately, playing at 1999 with a single FOC is no house rule at all, and there's nothing he can say that will change that. At my LGS we don't even bother with that +1 silliness, since most lists end in odd numbers anyway.
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Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 21:42:07
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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The existence of this thread suggests otherwise...
Again, if you want to play a game with just a single FOC, surely it's simpler to just choose a points value that only allows for a single FOC, rather than trying to claim that 1999+1 doesn't actually equal 2000?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 21:47:18
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Nym wrote:1999+1 exists because some people actually like playing a balanced game, and some others just like to brainlessly spam the same unit 6 times.
Maybe someday they'll realise that playing with 6 Heldrakes and 4 Daemon Princes is actually the same as playing with 3 Heldrakes and 2 Daemon Princes... only it takes twice as long.
unfortuneatly while some armies can fill 2000 points with quality units without exceeding 3 of each slot, some cannot.
Playing 2000 points with 2 force orgs is like playing 1000 points with one force org. Games shouldn't be played at either. 1500 works just fine for most armies.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 21:50:45
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
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Nym wrote:
Judging by his sig, this guy obviously has a problem with house rules. Maybe a house rule stole his lunchbag when he was a kid or something... Or maybe he keeps buying expensive and OP Forgeworld stuff and nobody wants to play with.
No, his problem is when people start acting like their house rule is somehow more correct or otherwise superior to the RAW, which, even considering how bad GW is at rules writing, you ain't any better.
If someone asked me to play a "1999+1" game, well, 1999 +1 = 2000 = double FOC.
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DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 22:15:17
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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And yet everyone else in the thread were able to not only answer it, but it seems most people understand that what we're after when we say it is the distinction of no second FOC.
It's sort of like those threads where people go "What does WTF mean?"
And then someone tells them and then they're in the know. The thread pops up when someone needs to know. Not because it's a mystery.
Of course you are correct that not everyone knows what it means. Not everyone knows how to count either. Everyone in my group knows what it means and no one has ever started preaching that saying 1999+1 is to sit on a high horse, and that, in fact, I shouldn't be saying that because it means I am trying to be clever.
How. Dare. I.
Krellnus wrote: Nym wrote:
Judging by his sig, this guy obviously has a problem with house rules. Maybe a house rule stole his lunchbag when he was a kid or something... Or maybe he keeps buying expensive and OP Forgeworld stuff and nobody wants to play with.
No, his problem is when people start acting like their house rule is somehow more correct or otherwise superior to the RAW, which, even considering how bad GW is at rules writing, you ain't any better.
If someone asked me to play a "1999+1" game, well, 1999 +1 = 2000 = double FOC.
So you'd purposefully misunderstand him to put him in his place. So he doesn't think he can just go around saying things? I'm not sure what you are punishing him for. Your idea that he is trying to circumvent something in a tricky manner?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/23 22:18:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 22:16:36
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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1999+1 is definitely the rule and not the exception. It was a silly thing to do, putting that DFO at 2000 instead of 2500. But tourney organizers just got tired fo dealing with the DFO lopsided masturbation fest thaT is DFO. So now most tournies do 1850. It avoids the whole issue, the games get played in a more reasonavble amount of time and less (note i said LESS) shinanigans occur.
Overall, Dual Force Org tournies don't pull as big a crowd because even if you HAVE the models, you don't ususally feel like playing AGAINST that kind of force.
It's just really no fun and should be reserved for more apocalyptic type games.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 22:16:56
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 22:27:15
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Purifier wrote:
And yet everyone else in the thread were able to not only answer it, but it seems most people understand that what we're after when we say it is the distinction of no second FOC.
It's sort of like those threads where people go "What does WTF mean?"
And then someone tells them and then they're in the know. The thread pops up when someone needs to know. Not because it's a mystery.
Of course you are correct that not everyone knows what it means. Not everyone knows how to count either. Everyone in my group knows what it means and no one has ever started preaching that saying 1999+1 is to sit on a high horse, and that, in fact, I shouldn't be saying that because it means I am trying to be clever.
I didn't say it was a mystery. I merely questioned your claim that everybody knows what it means, when, clearly, not everyone does.
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Jancoran wrote:1999+1 is definitely the rule and not the exception. It was a silly thing to do, putting that DFO at 2000 instead of 2500. But tourney organizers just got tired fo dealing with the DFO lopsided masturbation fest thaT is DFO. So now most tournies do 1850. It avoids the whole issue, the games get played in a more reasonavble amount of time and less (note i said LESS) shinanigans occur.
How many tournies were running at 2000 points previously anyway?
From what I've seen, 1500 and 1750, with 1850 cropping up more recently, has been more or less the standard since the start of 3rd edition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 22:29:08
Subject: Re:What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Sister Vastly Superior
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Well, my group played almost exclusively at 2000-2500. Now I see a lot of 1850 games being played.
_e
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I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 22:37:53
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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insaniak wrote:
I didn't say it was a mystery. I merely questioned your claim that everybody knows what it means, when, clearly, not everyone does.
I'm not sure if you're being serious, ironic or facetious.
Saying "everyone knows" is a very sweeping statement that is almost never (I can't actually think of a single time) meant to be taken literally.
One of the most common uses of the phrase is probably* in disbelief. "You don't know about The God Emperor? everyone knows about the God Emperor!"
That sentence disproves itself, as the person that didn't know about the God Emperor by definition didn't know about the God Emperor.
Everyone I play with knows what it means. And I cannot stress this enough:
We do not consider ourselves to have beaten the rules. We see it as short hand for "2000 points but without the allowance for a second Force Organisation Chart"
Sort of like how FOC is also short for something, and people like to do that. And this one makes sense.
*I added that probably as I assume you'll need me to cite studies to show this if I only put "is".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 23:23:43
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Purifier wrote: insaniak wrote:
I didn't say it was a mystery. I merely questioned your claim that everybody knows what it means, when, clearly, not everyone does.
I'm not sure if you're being serious, ironic or facetious.
I was initially amused at the claim that 'everybody knows what it means' in a thread that was specifically asking what it means.
It becomes progressively less amusing the longer you try to turn the whole thing into a big deal...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 23:33:54
Subject: What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Peregrine wrote: Oh, they are. You must have missed all the people congratulating themselves for being so clever and finding the "loophole" that lets you play single- FOC at 2000 points while still following the standard rules. By phrasing it as 1999+1 they cut of any RAW arguments with the double FOC rules. Saying "2000 points, you may not use the double FOC rule" also cuts out any possible arguments. It just requires admitting that you're playing a house-ruled game.
You're putting words and opinions into other people's mouths and try to shove them down against their will. That's not very nice of you. 1999+1 is easier to say than "2000 without an addition FOC", especially in the middle of a Swedish conversation. That's it. It's as simple as that. (And yes I've had to explain the concept to people the first time I use it) Save the derision for when people actually pretend double FOC isn't part of the original rule set, most likely in the YMDC forum.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 23:35:09
I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 23:34:40
Subject: Re:What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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I had never heard of this and think the suggestion of playing 1999pt games would have been a better route to take.
How many 2000 point lists hit the exact mark anyway?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/23 23:37:35
Subject: Re:What exactly is a "1999+1" list?
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Medium of Death wrote:I had never heard of this and think the suggestion of playing 1999pt games would have been a better route to take. How many 2000 point lists hit the exact mark anyway?
It seems to be a thing in more recent codexes for models and options to cost even 5-point increments at their natural levels of purchase. Making even 5 point increment lists or actually exactly hitting the point cost limit with the new Eldar codex, for instance, is not all too difficult. P.s. although Imperial armies probably have a lot of 1 point upgrades in the form of flood lights and portable radios. (Which in theory should make hitting point limit even easier.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/23 23:38:52
I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. |
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