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Honestly, I'd rather deal with riptides any day of the week over the immortal wave serpents.

Anyone who complains about meqs is just not getting it. Bikes aren't undercosted, they are still a whopping 21 pt/W with 3+ save at best. Grav guns can't be spammed for long, because Orks and Tyranids will end that fast.

Ironcially, IG is one the lists that can shoot back at the Tau/Eldar in a meaningful way. Leafblower from 5th ed is still potent. And then there's the Vendetta still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

madtankbloke wrote:
I have 3 armies. Imperial Fists, Necrons and Tau

When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.

When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....

When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.

No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.

I inverse rage, because I know that losing is the expected outcome when using any amount of BA models, lol. The sad part is that I still feel that the BA codex has a fighting shot against the new C:SM book, but none at all against Tau/Eldar/Demons. That's how bad meqs are.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Just my two and a half cents on the subject:
Any game where spamming a unit (like Riptides) is so common, especially to the extent where the competitive lists are effectively 'well I can fir X of these unit so I will take X and then fill out the rest of the list', the problem is not with the players but the game itself.

I won't blame players for taking legal lists that are overly nasty, and I'll play them just like anyone else, but playing those people is exactly what ruined the game for me.

Not really. I'd rather have a game that gives more options, possibly even broken options, and trust in the maturity of players who (for the most part) know that not all available options are appropriate at all times and that a minimum of civilized pre-game communication can easily ensure a fun game for both sides, than a game that is too restrictive to do anything whacky.

It's the same with the ever-recurring Forge World-legality discussion. Just because an option exists, doesn't mean it's appropriate to make use of it at all times and in all circumstances. If in (even the slightest) doubt that it might diminish the overall fun of the experience, try opening your mouth to talk about it before feelings (or egos) get hurt.

Not to mention that there are always different options to go about it. Said Tau Player above could've, to name just one idea, entered to store saying "I want to test my really hard competitive Tau list for a tourny next week. I realize the armies you guys have with you might not be tournament optimized. Would you still allow me to test my mean-tournament-machine against you if I'd use 10% less points than you do?". Or something of that kind.

more options are better even if they're broken.... lol

trust in the maturity of 40k players.... double lol

good ones

 happygolucky wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Well, what army(s) do you play?

......I play Tau with one unit on braodsides and one riptide. Then I play White Scars Grav gun Spam

Ok well what exact units do you put into both army's like for troops and elites? etc, etc?

atm it just sounds like your opponents are just whining..

A couple of crisis suits for tau, with a skyray and hammerhead. And other things like one unit of pathfinders and so forth.
Im still getting a hod of Space Marines.....But typically Khan and a kitted out chapter master. Hell my last game I brought LC termies in a LR and they where pissed about it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Makumba wrote:
There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time

Seriously?

My standard Guard list has two squads of meltagunners who can deal with that. Admittedly, I play Elysians, so my melta is almost always in range when it arrives, but a standard guard list just replaces melta with plasma.

Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.

i think i read somewhere statistically it takes about 30 plasma gun shots to down a riptide.

can you back up your statements with some math?

Rommel44 wrote:...which got the Tau player upset and he began ranting on how he can never get any games anymore with his Tau as too many people believe that they are too strong in this edition as favors them to much thanks to GW making it a shooting game.

...but from talking to a friend in WA, he even stated that the Tau players at his store bring other armies as no one wants to fight the Tau right now, because in his opinion they are too strong right now and need a nerf to balance them out, as though they suck in CC, GW's changes to the Assault rules made it even harder for people to do that.

Regardless of the power level of tau at the moment, I'd agree that tau are going to have a hard time getting a game in (at our FLGS half the players switched over to tau with the new codex, and within a month, it became only tau players playing other tau players, and when they got sick of that, and no one else would play them, they started not showing up anymore after a couple of months). The key thing that's missing is this:

EmperorsChosen wrote:People need to realise that it isn't always about winning or losing, if you have fun then you have 'won' really.

... which is the problem. Tau aren't fun to play against. Win or lose. It's not about WAAC and powergaming, and game balance, etc. etc. It's about an enjoyable game.

GW took 5th ed 40k and decided that what it needs is to make gunlines much more powerful than they already were relative to other armies when it came out with 6th ed. Lots of people, myself included, loathe playing gunlines, and find playing against them tedious for several good reasons. It's just not a fun game.

So they made 40k less fun with a gunlinier edition, and then they released tau, which exploited all the rules and just flat-out broke a bunch more, which further exposed the problems 40k has right now.

Nobody should feel obligated to play a game they know is going to be boring. If tau make boring games, their players are going to get fewer games in. Behold, a free market, I suppose. I'd also note that this isn't exactly a new phenominon. I'll point you to places on dakka where this has already been discussed like here and here. It seems that reality on the tabletop is merely catching up with the abstract principles.

It's not like no one saw this coming...

kb305 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Makumba wrote:
There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time

Seriously?

My standard Guard list has two squads of meltagunners who can deal with that. Admittedly, I play Elysians, so my melta is almost always in range when it arrives, but a standard guard list just replaces melta with plasma.

Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.

i think i read somewhere statistically it takes about 30 plasma gun shots to down a riptide.

can you back up your statements with some math?

No, because A) I can't be bothered, and B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

kb305 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Makumba wrote:
There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time

Seriously?

My standard Guard list has two squads of meltagunners who can deal with that. Admittedly, I play Elysians, so my melta is almost always in range when it arrives, but a standard guard list just replaces melta with plasma.

Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.

i think i read somewhere statistically it takes about 30 plasma gun shots to down a riptide.

can you back up your statements with some math?

the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.

lol. Sig worthy material right there.

Its all down to what I've brought. I have daemons, and while my particular daemon list isn't top tier they're not bad as a whole - so I'd be willing to face a higher 'class' of lists if I've got my daemons on me.

If I've brought Orks though, honestly, I won't stand a chance against anything half decent and you won't get a game out of me - because it'll be boring as gak for both of us (unless your a d-bag that enjoys stomping gakky lists)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.

Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?

First off, tau need markerlights or a list built around not using them. There is no other list.

Any tau player that has more than 2 riptides is crossing a line IMO.

Beyond that, I see lots of tau players getting games. The only people I don't see getting games are the always tournament mode players at my FLGS. There's 3, and they can't really get pick up games now because no one wants to play their nonsense. For reference, I'm talking about 2 Daemons and 1 Nercon players.

If you're having trouble with tau, remember they hate av 13 and higher since they have trouble killing it at range. Also, just get to melee and stop complaining. In a recent tournament I made it to melee in a long ways deployment vs a tau player with obliterators, and remember since obliterators can't run, that's a long walk.

 Crimson wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.

Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?

If you want to get technical...Physics does. And since dice are made with real consistency, the physics for his dice versus your dice will vary. And the surface you roll on will vary. As will how the dice are released, etc. Stats are a simplified way of looking at outcomes, true physics would give you the real odds but they'd be a bear to actually run.

 troa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.

Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?

If you want to get technical...Physics does. And since dice are made with real consistency, the physics for his dice versus your dice will vary. And the surface you roll on will vary. As will how the dice are released, etc. Stats are a simplified way of looking at outcomes, true physics would give you the real odds but they'd be a bear to actually run.

is this your cloak and dagger way of saying that you use weighted dice or some other method of cheating? or is it just a pile of nonsense?

Well "true physics" if every single angle, surface, mass etc. was calculated you wouldn't get odds you'd get the exact value and placement of the die.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Well, what army(s) do you play?

......I play Tau with one unit on braodsides and one riptide. Then I play White Scars Grav gun Spam

Ok well what exact units do you put into both army's like for troops and elites? etc, etc?

atm it just sounds like your opponents are just whining..

A couple of crisis suits for tau, with a skyray and hammerhead. And other things like one unit of pathfinders and so forth.
Im still getting a hod of Space Marines.....But typically Khan and a kitted out chapter master. Hell my last game I brought LC termies in a LR and they where pissed about it.

Aye well since I've been reading the SM codex as my friend lent me it I cant really see any problems with it... better for me if you used grav-weapons anyway, I use a ton of daemon engines

It just looks like your opponents are just whining, I wouldn't pay too much attention to them in fact I would shove this pic up in their faces every time they do:



Its what I do on Dakka when I see people whining about the Helldrake..

However I would ask what's in your Chapter Master? just interested that's all..

I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar...

Just seems like it is cyclical. You are never going to learn to beat an army unless you play against it.

cvtuttle wrote:I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar...

Just seems like it is cyclical. You are never going to learn to beat an army unless you play against it.

But it isn't. Grousing about a new codex is tradition. People who play the new codex not being able to play games... that's new. Dare I say, unique.

We're looking at something very different here, not merely more of the same.

I wont play against a Tau player if he brings eldar allies or if he dbl force orgs to get 4 or more riptides.

zteknon wrote:
I wont play against a Tau player if he brings eldar allies or if he dbl force orgs to get 4 or more riptides.

What if he brings 4 or more riptides in a single FOC?

 cvtuttle wrote:
I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar... .

And BA, and undoubtedly IG, I think what makes people irked is when people play with an "I win" button, I certainly would not enjoy playing against someone who only uses I win armies, but hey I am just a casual player so to some dakkaites I am a heretic and must be burned

 cvtuttle wrote:
I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar...

I remember when this applied to space wolves spamming long fangs and rune priests
I remember when this applied to Paladin spam
I remember when this applied to helldrake spam
I remember when this applied to riptide spam
I remember when this applied to wave serpant spam

See the pattern? You want a fun pick up game, bring a fun pick up list.

Im guessing you mean using the Farsight Enclave? If its a 1750 game or thereabouts i think hes nerfing his army hard enough since all his power is focused in just the rip tides.

Still its a gimmick and its not much fun to play against. If its a tournament then i have no say in what the other person brings and i just gotta play. But for fun Id like to at least have a chance with my poor space bugs.

I dont enjoy playing Tau vs Tau so i don't. I'm basically avoiding playing my tau until its not the flavor of the month anymore. Kind of made me sad to see everyone just flocking to them when they were probably the second least played army for so long.

madtankbloke wrote:
I have 3 armies. Imperial Fists, Necrons and Tau

When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.

When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....

When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.

No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.

I haven't read all the post in this topic but I wanted to respond to this.

I play 7 armies, used to have Tau but just sold them after playing a little while with this new codex. The only army even approaching OP is Tau, even then it is very possible to field a nice balanced Tau army the problem is the lack of LOS blocking terrain at most clubs/tournaments, Riptides which I would argue ARE OP mostly because of their relatively low point cost, and 6th edition shooting rules. These three things make them unfun to play against, unfun for me to play with, and generally bad for the game at large. Now two of those three things aren't even the fault of the codex! The biggest problem with the codex is there is not a single bad choice in it. Not a one. The worst people can come up with is Vespids but they are just fine even if they aren't amazing. My main army is Nids and I know a thing or two about worthless choices when about 2/3s my book is just bad.

We have a Necron player who is a really good friend of mine and I agree, people complain way to much about them. I think RP are annoying, but not unbalancing. In effect it is army wide FNP with different downsides, it is good, it is great, but they pay for it in other ways. Annihilation Barges? Under costed but not in the same realm as Riptides. I've had one take out a flying hive tyrant in one round of shooting due to some lucky rolling on my friends part and my inability to roll a save. That didn't make me think they were OP, they are a very solid unit. The thing in Necrons that sticks out to me as OP is MSS. It is my opinion that anything that rolls 3d6 on leadership with any kind of substantial effect is OP. The average roll for 3d6 is 11 and that beast out ANY LD in the game. That means 50% of the time MSS is going to go off and that to me is way to easy. Again, as a Tyranid player I have to say that the Dooms ability is the same, it is way to easy and causes way to much damage.

I also play C:SM and...okay I will be honest, I don't get this one. The only reason they may appear OP is if your club runs heavy on the meta with a bunch of Riptides and Wraithknights which get destroyed by Gravguns. Don't know what to say.

There is such a thing as OP, OP is not unbeatable, OP is in relation to other things of it's class. Like the Riptide compared to other MC's or other heavy weapon platforms like Leman Russ. It blows the competition out of the water, the only thing that comes close IMHO is a flying hive tyrant, but the tyrant is priced appropriately for what it does.

That poor Guard Player, having to fight a army that can match his shooting. Bet that kept him up for hours that night. Poor guy.

I do not care whom I play or what army they run so long as they are not a total asshat,,,I play because I enjoy the game.

Crimson wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.

Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that mathematics affects the world. It doesn't. Mathematics describes the world. It does not have any power to change it. And, with probability, mathematics is never going to be a perfect description because there are too many factors that the mathematics doesn't take into account when rolling dice.

Anyway, everybody knows that the dice gods are real.

I'm one of those people that really doesn't play against Tau. I play really fluffy Dark Angels and having to go up against what is quite possibly the least fun army in the game to play against just doesn't excite me at all.

If there is no one else to play against, yeah I'll battle a Tau player, but if I see more than two riptides, I'm not playing you. I have better things to do than get curb stomped.

That is my thoughts for pick up games. I enjoy playing against Tau when it comes to my matched league games because then I just throw as many Deathwing Land Raiders into my list as possible and see how things go.

Part of the problem here is playing pick-up games in shops. If people played with friends at home or at a club, there would be a much better understood social acceptability of what to put in your army.

When any decent new codex is launched a good "spam" list is found and becomes the hot list for several months until people work out good counters or another hot codex comes out.

People will be complaining about something other than Tau in a few months from now.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Anyway, everybody knows that the dice gods are real.

True dat. And most of the time they hate me. Except my last game, but I think they were teaching my friend a lesson in not playing since the start of 6th.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Crimson wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.

Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that mathematics affects the world. It doesn't. Mathematics describes the world. It does not have any power to change it. And, with probability, mathematics is never going to be a perfect description because there are too many factors that the mathematics doesn't take into account when rolling dice.

Such as the dice spirits?

 Ravenous D wrote:

Bingo.
Look over at the "why do people not like playing against unpainted models thread". Its amazing the level of laziness and unwillingness that some people have. Its this defense mechanism people have developed over the years, "If you don't like it, quit" "I can do whatever I want with my hobby" etc etc. Its the anthem of an entitled generation to expect everyone to accept their lazy gak attitudes and bad behaviour as either some sort of life choice or disease.
The warhammer community is packed with Goobs, the guys that never learn, don't want to learn, and are incredibly vocal when it comes to you telling them to up their game.

Not trying to hijack the thread but Wow really? So because I have school, a girlfriend, am in the Army, I work and also take care of myself by working out (and to maintain my shape for military service) that's means I am "lazy"? Maybe before calling everyone who does not paint their armies as "lazy bums" take into account that some people have priorities that take precedence over painting models for their hobby, you don't see me calling players like you "stuck up pricks" for refusing and berating players without a painted army.

 Ailaros wrote:

... which is the problem. Tau aren't fun to play against. Win or lose. It's not about WAAC and powergaming, and game balance, etc. etc. It's about an enjoyable game.
GW took 5th ed 40k and decided that what it needs is to make gunlines much more powerful than they already were relative to other armies when it came out with 6th ed. Lots of people, myself included, loathe playing gunlines, and find playing against them tedious for several good reasons. It's just not a fun game.
So they made 40k less fun with a gunlinier edition, and then they released tau, which exploited all the rules and just flat-out broke a bunch more, which further exposed the problems 40k has right now.
Nobody should feel obligated to play a game they know is going to be boring. If tau make boring games, their players are going to get fewer games in.

Have to agree with this and its the reason that I cannot and will not play or run a gunline army. Now will I refuse to play someone who runs a gunline army? No, but I do agree that it is not very fun to play against and sadly for most Tau players it is THE list to go with as their rules make an already strong list even stronger. Now I do feel that if someone who is looking for a friendly game and ends up being forced to play a "Tri-Tide" Tau or "Necron Flying Circus" list is the fault of the other player, especially if he knows that his list I not optimized to fight something like that.

Just because the person with the tournament or WAAC list is having fun does not make it a "fun game", and even then don't see how its fun destroying an opponent who has no chance as I find games like that, even if I am the one destroying my opponent its not fun for anyone. People need to be willing to adapt and compromise because this whole "I am a competitive player so they need to buy competitive stuff and play competively" or "I am a fluff player, they need to not spam OP stuff and make cheese lists" is hypocritical either way you look at it.