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 master of ordinance wrote:

So, your cultural point is balls.

Going from "A counterpoint, with qualification" and "An anecdote" to "Your argument is balls" is quite a leap, isn't it? I would certainly take my pistol or rifle, which I own but my girlfriend does not know how to operate, to investigate a burglar rather than sending her or even expecting the same from her. So bam, counter-anecdote.

As for your first point, yes, women are performing the dangerous jobs. But as you yourself say, not as much as men.


How many women play Darkage? Must be lots since they don't suffer from the oversexualization like they do everywhere else.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread (stopped at page 12 or so), but I am curious...
...if oversexualization is the problem keeping girls away from 40k and Fantasy, why don't we see more women playing historicals?

Flames of War has a female Russian tank-driver Hero (Mariya) who is pretty freaking awesome, and her model is just a woman in tanker's overalls climbing out of the driver's hatch (if you must model her at all; a T-34 with a closed hatch would work fine).

My Russian artillery staff teams come with women as radio operators; the only reason you can tell they're women is that they have longer hair poking out from under their caps.

Needless to say, neither of these is sexualized yet women are MORE conspicuously absent from Historical gaming than from Fantasy/Sci-fi!

I'd imagine it has something to do with the perception of miniature war gaming that both men and women have. Miniature war gaming is generally considered an activity appropriate only for males. Coupled with the historic elements of warfare which, and I don't have any statistics to base this statement off of so grain of salt and all that, but I imagine is a field of study that most women choose not to undertake, and you will begin to approach an answer to your question.

Something else to consider is the severe lack of relatable protagonists in historic settings for women. Sci-Fi and Fantasy at least allow for women to be central to the story being told because real world cultural mores can be changed or ignored in those fantastical settings. Unless you focus on very rare outliers the same cannot be said for historic games where women's roles were limited and often took the form of supportive activities not devoted to direct combat. I doubt a rousing game of playing American Civil War Nurses would be as much fun as recreating the Battle of Antietam. Although, bonesaws are cool, so maybe I'd play an ACW Nurses game.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

So, your cultural point is balls.

.

As for your first point, yes, women are performing the dangerous jobs. But as you yourself say, not as much as men.

Not as well as men either.

http://nypost.com/2013/11/10/female-fdny-recruit-fails-running-test-five-times-but-graduates-anyway/

 mattyrm wrote:
Not as well as men either.

http://nypost.com/2013/11/10/female-fdny-recruit-fails-running-test-five-times-but-graduates-anyway/

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Going from "A counterpoint, with qualification" and "An anecdote" to "Your argument is balls" is quite a leap, isn't it?

Hey, look, I'm playing the Game of Quote (with my Littlefinger )

 mattyrm wrote:
Not as well as men either.

http://nypost.com/2013/11/10/female-fdny-recruit-fails-running-test-five-times-but-graduates-anyway/

Other women have done this successfully. It seems a little unfair to lump them in with this unusual case.

It's even more unfair for the NYFD to cheapen their efforts by giving her all these special breaks, as well, of course.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Something else to consider is the severe lack of relatable protagonists in historic settings for women. Sci-Fi and Fantasy at least allow for women to be central to the story being told because real world cultural mores can be changed or ignored in those fantastical settings.

It has zero to do with cultural mores, and everything to do with the lack of certain physical attributes getting you killed on the battlefield. The reason the Spartans used male soldiers instead of female soldiers isn't "because the patriarchy!"

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How many women play Darkage? Must be lots since they don't suffer from the oversexualization like they do everywhere else.

I think this is a forest/trees issue. Fixating on which game ranges have more overly sexualized miniatures is not going to address the larger issue, which is how women perceive gaming as a whole. People generally are not going to want to undertake an activity that is perceived to be a something that the other gender enjoys.

For the guys in this thread have you ever engaged in an activity deemed more suitable for women? Ever take ballet? Make-up lessons at the MAC counter? If you took Home Economics in school were you mocked for it by your friends? I am using tired, cliched examples of "girls" activities to make my point, so apologies for that, but I am trying to show the hurdles that are placed in front of women when it comes to even getting them to approach a game table.

1. Women have to overcome the notion that war gaming is meant for men only.
2. Women have to accept that if they do engage in war gaming they will likely be a minority at gaming events (including pick-up games at the LGS/game club).
2a. Women have to overcome the objectification that often occurs when they enter these spaces.
3. Women have to accept that the industry caters to male interests when generating gaming materials which includes the models and artwork dominating this conversation.

That is a lot to ask someone to endure just to play a game.

I certainly don't engage in activities that make me uncomfortable during my leisure time, so I am not surprised that so many women avoid table top gaming due to the factors listed above.

Now, if some of those factors can be chipped away at and changed, I would imagine that the number of willing female participants in the hobby would grow. It ultimately doesn't matter which game line is more or less offensive to women, what matters is that the culture behind our hobby is generally unwelcoming to women and the cheesecake cover art and busty-babe minis does nothing to alleviate that situation. Which is frustrating. I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy said artwork and minis, and while I appreciate that rather silly aspect of this hobby I also appreciate that it is doing nothing to help grow the hobby among women and it is likely keeping this niche hobby a marginalized activity for a largely male audience.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Something else to consider is the severe lack of relatable protagonists in historic settings for women. Sci-Fi and Fantasy at least allow for women to be central to the story being told because real world cultural mores can be changed or ignored in those fantastical settings.

It has zero to do with cultural mores, and everything to do with the lack of certain physical attributes getting you killed on the battlefield. The reason the Spartans used male soldiers instead of female soldiers isn't "because the patriarchy!"

Is that what I said? Did I reference "the patriarchy" at all? No. I was simply pointing out that historical settings don't offer a lot of opportunities for women to take leading roles, because you know, history. Women generally didn't have a lot to contribute to the battlefields of yore, so perhaps why women aren't flocking to historical games is because there is nothing for them to identify with.

Sci-Fi and Fantasy settings can allow women to be gun and sword wielding protagonists because they are set in cultures and worlds where those things are normal. Crack open an old copy of Vampire: The Dark Ages and read the section of female character creation. That RPG was set in a pseudo-historic Europe in the 1200's and as such basically said "if your character is a female you will run up against a lot of social barriers that aren't present in the modern game." If you play D&D or Pathfinder you likely won't have those same restrictions placed on a character unless the DM is specifically introducing real world conventions into the setting, or you are playing with donkey-caves that buy into the -4 strength meme.

Bring on the outrage, Seaward.

*edited typo*

Everything you've just said is predicated on there being large numbers of women who would love to play tabletop games but just feel like they can't because there are too many things stopping them.

This just doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe, maybe if we were to do something to mitigate the issues you list, a few more female gamers would start to enter the hobby, but I repeat, if there was a significant female market out there, someone would be tapping it.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Is that what I said? Did I reference "the patriarchy" at all?

No, you said that the reason for the lack of women on historic battlefields was cultural rather than practical.

The arguments here are a bit fishy. I've given one example, and seen one example, of wargames that would be acceptable to women because they lack the sexual objectification present in other games. These games provide a way into the hobby for women who are truly interested in it, but will not play an oversexualized game marketed to teenagers.

Yet there aren't terribly more women that play them (and in the case of Flames of War, there are actually fewer women locally than fantasy or 40k), which tells me that women aren't interested.

To review:
1) If women are interested, but put off by the oversexualized games, then they could do even a smidgen of research (seriously, 10 mins) and find one of the many that endeavor to not be oversexualized.

2) These less sexual games are not any more popular with women than any of the more sexualized fantasy settings, and in some (admittedly anecdotal) cases, are less popular.

Therefore, women must simply not be interested enough to do the research.

This conclusion means that marketing towards women is a bad idea for wargame companies, because they cannot be expected to make much extra business. The target audience simply isn't interested, and so the marketing decisions would fall flat.

Aye. The fact is, women don't like games of all stripes as much as men do.

I never met a single girl who likes video games as much as men either, and there are hundreds with no overt cleavage.

The most I can get out of my missus is half an hour on Mario Kart.

I know that anecdotal evidence isnt worth a grots toss but I have some experience with females and wargames. Most women I showed the models too enjoy the models and paintjobs. However, what put a lot of them off was how difficult it is to get into it (cost was the biggest factor cited). Modeling and how stupidly complex the rules are were additional factors.

My theory is that females just arent into wargames as games. Different tastes in hobbies and all that.

Note, I am not saying girls arent capable of learning the rules. They probably dont have the desire to. Also , when I say "women" I mean those that dont play wargames. I am not saying those that do arent women I just dont want to type "women who dont play wargames".

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Note, I am not saying girls arent capable of learning the rules. They probably dont have the desire to. Also , when I say "women" I mean those that dont play wargames. I am not saying those that do arent women I just dont want to type "women who dont play wargames".

That you had to tie yourself in knots to cover yourself like that is testament to how daft this thread has gotten in places.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The arguments here are a bit fishy. I've given one example, and seen one example, of wargames that would be acceptable to women because they lack the sexual objectification present in other games. These games provide a way into the hobby for women who are truly interested in it, but will not play an oversexualized game marketed to teenagers.

Yet there aren't terribly more women that play them (and in the case of Flames of War, there are actually fewer women locally than fantasy or 40k), which tells me that women aren't interested.

To review:
1) If women are interested, but put off by the oversexualized games, then they could do even a smidgen of research (seriously, 10 mins) and find one of the many that endeavor to not be oversexualized.

2) These less sexual games are not any more popular with women than any of the more sexualized fantasy settings, and in some (admittedly anecdotal) cases, are less popular.

Therefore, women must simply not be interested enough to do the research.

This conclusion means that marketing towards women is a bad idea for wargame companies, because they cannot be expected to make much extra business. The target audience simply isn't interested, and so the marketing decisions would fall flat.

People want to play what's avalible to them. Doing research to find less avalible games to get into a hobby that's hostle and uncomfortable isn't something most people would do I would find. Especially when we don't have the same network of people to help us get into them.

Mattyrm do you go to conventions ? Since at least the recent ones in aus I have met loads of women into video games as much as men are.
Not as many as men, but then if the people selling are not interested in potential audience why take interest in them.
Every convention I have been to I have been left stand at one point since it was assumed I wasn't interested. Why men where getting shown the game. Other places where keen to give me a go, and I gave them support.

I would also say that if these threads keep coming up then there must be some people looking for alternative products, and I think slowly it is changing. But I still haven't realy found the alternative products I need, so I haven't been able to buy them.

 azreal13 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Note, I am not saying girls arent capable of learning the rules. They probably dont have the desire to. Also , when I say "women" I mean those that dont play wargames. I am not saying those that do arent women I just dont want to type "women who dont play wargames".

That you had to tie yourself in knots to cover yourself like that is testament to how daft this thread has gotten in places.

If there is something that I learned reading Women's Rights dicussions is that they will call you every name in the book and disregard your argument entirely if it can be construed as misogynist.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I know that anecdotal evidence isnt worth a grots toss but I have some experience with females and wargames. Most women I showed the models too enjoy the models and paintjobs. However, what put a lot of them off was how difficult it is to get into it (cost was the biggest factor cited). Modeling and how stupidly complex the rules are were additional factors.

My theory is that females just arent into wargames as games. Different tastes in hobbies and all that.

Note, I am not saying girls arent capable of learning the rules. They probably dont have the desire to. Also , when I say "women" I mean those that dont play wargames. I am not saying those that do arent women I just dont want to type "women who dont play wargames".

This is actuly a realy great post
One of the bigist issues I have is building and learning the rules, it wasn't something I was used to.
I have to cut my nails when I want to build some of the more fiddly models :0
Learning the rules is allways realy hard without someone to teach outside of the competive enviroment.

Some reason I didn't get the first part :0

But I think it's just that every barrier that men have with these games is adding to extra barriers that most don't have to even deal with.

Apple fox wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I know that anecdotal evidence isnt worth a grots toss but I have some experience with females and wargames. Most women I showed the models too enjoy the models and paintjobs. However, what put a lot of them off was how difficult it is to get into it (cost was the biggest factor cited). Modeling and how stupidly complex the rules are were additional factors.

My theory is that females just arent into wargames as games. Different tastes in hobbies and all that.

Note, I am not saying girls arent capable of learning the rules. They probably dont have the desire to. Also , when I say "women" I mean those that dont play wargames. I am not saying those that do arent women I just dont want to type "women who dont play wargames".

This is actuly a realy great post
One of the bigist issues I have is building and learning the rules, it wasn't something I was used to.
I have to cut my nails when I want to build some of the more fiddly models :0
Learning the rules is allways realy hard without someone to teach outside of the competive enviroment.

It makes you feel any better, I read the rule book cover to cover twice. I still don't understand what warped mind came up with this crap and that expected everyone to memorize it all. I don't even know a lot of it.

More on the topic of sexualization... I honestly don't think it bothers girls as much as you'd think. I'm sure they are used to it by now seeing as how pervasive it is within western culture. I know a woman that actually likes the cheesecake models. I think what bothers them is the attitude us neckbeards take with women. Would you like to go into a place where strangers treated you like an object and acted creepy about their toys? Okay, admittedly, I would love that but I am a shameless twisted fether.

 mattyrm wrote:
I never met a single girl who likes video games as much as men either, and there are hundreds with no overt cleavage.

The most I can get out of my missus is half an hour on Mario Kart.

That... I think might be a generational thing. I think it's probably true for people that are our age. I am not so sure it will be true for the girls that are now, you know, 12 or 14 or so. My niece spends every waking minute playing PC games (She alternates between Minecraft and L4D2) and my nephew finally had to give in and buy an Xbox just so he could have some gaming time at all.

Apple fox wrote:
I would also say that if these threads keep coming up then there must be some people looking for alternative products

That's one theory.

Again, if you're convinced that women are really, really into complex tabletop wargaming, you could make a killing serving that market.

I understand what you are sauying Ouze, but still... Its so fething obvious that its just the topic.. why do we keep going in circles?

Topic. Nothing else.

Plenty of young women play video games now, but they usually play other type of games, my best mates wife fething loves all the dancing ones, she doesn't mind driving sims either.

Same with my missus, driving, maybe platformers.

She even likes board games too, but gak like Monopoly, not WAR games.

Men love war.

Check out who goes to see Love Actually at the movies - way more women than men.

Check out who goes to see war movies - way more men than women.

It is obviously, and indisputably, a topic that more men are interested in, and so it is obviously more heavily marketted towards them.

Its not the industry, its not humanity, its not a complex ploy to undermine women, its not complicated.

Its a topic that more men are into, across every single hobby ever.

There is no way you can possibly prove otherwise... no matter how much mental gymnastics you use. Even if I brought this topic up with my fething grandmother she would say the same thing, she knows feth all about wargames, but its painfully fething obvious.

How on earth is anybody arguing otherwise with a straight face? :S

 mattyrm wrote:
Aye. The fact is, women don't like games of all stripes as much as men do.

I never met a single girl who likes video games as much as men either, and there are hundreds with no overt cleavage.

The most I can get out of my missus is half an hour on Mario Kart.

You should come to Japan many female gamers here and in multiplay guys normally don't use overly sexual remarks when playing together. Also More diverse games in Japan.
Also about playing tabletop games, i go to a boardgame event every month and there are girls playing games with figures, but most of these games do not entail the destruction of the opponents forces.
From what i see girls are less interested in games were the sole purpose is to destroy each others forces.

Apple fox wrote:
People want to play what's avalible to them. Doing research to find less avalible games to get into a hobby that's hostle and uncomfortable isn't something most people would do I would find. Especially when we don't have the same network of people to help us get into them.

This is a different issue, though, than mere oversexualization. Hostility and discomfort for a woman engaging in a traditionally "male" activity, dominated by (stereotypically) socially inelegant people is the problem. I think the oversexualization is, at worst, a component of this, and at best, a side-effect (as opposed to a cause).

Can't believe I'm doing this, I tried to stay out of this thread as long as II could as it went along its predictable path.

Want a reason why women don't play these type of games as much of men? Just read this thread.

Every second post is a male saying women don't like this sort of stuff because our 1950's sterotype of gender roles is man are all manly man who love war and women are dainty and love their dancing & crafting. Than there are those that are saying that women should just deal with the sexually objectified minatures because that's what makes money.

Doesn't exactly sound like an inviting community for women does it? Why the hell would you want to become a part of something when the people involoved say that this isn't for you just because of what's between your legs. Have you noticed that there are an increasingly larger number of women playing video games over the last few years (yes even outside of casual games) while wargaming has seen no discernible change. Because the video game industry has identified the presentation and objectification of women as an issue and a barrier of entry to many and are trying to rectify it.

Ever stop to think that the reason we are told boys and girls are meant to like different things is because marketing companies have spent a good deal of money the last couple decades telling us that.

There is an amazing video on youtube where a 4 year old girl is having a rant in a toy store about why all the 'girls' toys are pink dollies and why she can't play with the 'boys' superhero toys and vice versa. She has more inteligence than the majority of adults both in this thread and out in the world about how gender roles are full of gak. Especially in this day and age where the lines between gender and sexuality are becoming increasingly blurred.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
People want to play what's avalible to them. Doing research to find less avalible games to get into a hobby that's hostle and uncomfortable isn't something most people would do I would find. Especially when we don't have the same network of people to help us get into them.

This is a different issue, though, than mere oversexualization. Hostility and discomfort for a woman engaging in a traditionally "male" activity, dominated by (stereotypically) socially inelegant people is the problem. I think the oversexualization is, at worst, a component of this, and at best, a side-effect (as opposed to a cause).

Yes, that's what we've been saying. Still, even if we can't eliminate the entire problem of the hostile environment, at least we address certain components of it and weaken it through piecewise action. "Solve everything or solve nothing" is a false dilemma.

 Madcat87 wrote:


Doesn't exactly sound like an inviting community for women does it?

The rest of what you wrote wasn't worth replying to, it was yet another post saying that gender roles are nonsense. The fact is, women don't want to wargame as much because they don't want to wargame as much. You can talk about gender roles all you like, that's a fact. My missus hasnt been conditioned to prefer reading over boxing, she just does, shes very much a tomboy and always has been, but she aint a man, and funny thing, men and women are a little bit different, gender roles be damned.

Unless of course, you are saying that the single solitary reason that women aren't beating down the doors at GW is because they are terrified of the "uninviting community" right?

That is as offensive to men as the idea that women are only good for mopping floors! Are you seriously suggesting that the majority of men who play the game would.. well.. act weird? What do you think they would do? Turn into slobbering monkeys and start dry humping their legs when they bent over to pick the dice up?!

Women don't like to wargame as much because women don't like to wargame as much. Its a fact. I guarantee that even if GW suddenly released a range of fully clothed, cammed up Cadian Womens Regiments, and banned anyone under the age of 21 from their stores for fear of childish leering, you STILL wouldn't see women make up more than the current smaller smattering of hobbyists, they just aren't as interested, and there is no way you can possibly argue that the sole reason for that is because society and men are dicks.

The only possible way your argument would make sense, is if you are talking about indoctrination since birth, and that all women inevitably embrace feminine roles because of pressure since they were babies. If you are arguing that, you are taking this already dour conversation to a next level, and I still wouldn't agree with you anyway. I don't believe for a second that If I was stranded and raised by wolves on a desert island when I was 4, I would prefer a doll to a bazooka, I think women have a more nurturing instinct because of 200,000 years of evolution, and men are more aggressive for the exact same reason.

If you think removing all cultural norms would suddenly make women want to go around beating people up, and men want to stay at home and stoke babies, you are ignoring the fact that we are evolved apes.

Non-violent tabletop games do exist, would be nice to see more of them.

I've even seen dungeon crawler rules without hostile monsters (or monsters so powerful they have to be avoided) where the players have to outwit each other by rotating the rooms while avoiding traps and obstacles.

I guess I fall under the "guys that like stuff that should be for girls" category as far as MLP goes, I find that most people are quite accepting of that, so I really don't think its all that difficult for gamer girls to enjoy a male majority hobby.

They aren't mythical creatures, a previous girlfriend of mine was one, she completely modded her xbox case so was pretty hardcore about it too.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder if their is any correlation between the opinions expressed by male posters in this thread and their experience (or lack thereof) in dealing with actual, living, breathing members of the opposite sex?

I agree with Madcat to an extent. Girls and boys have a lot of their tastes defined by what society tells them they should like. It's just how humans are. We are social animals that want to fit in with the pack. However, I also agree with Matt here since I also believe that men and women are just plain different. Sure, the differences may be minor but they are still there. Maybe playing with little mandollies while arguing about what a huge text book says about how to play with them isn't something that appeals to most women.

In addition, I also support the hypothesis that the wargamer culture does keep women out of the hobby. To an extent. Every store I've been to has been nice to girls and there is a regular at my main store. I believe it is mostly the perception of gamer culture that does it.

Though there is a grain of truth in it, as with most stereotypes.

I wonder if there are 18 page threads in the knitting and crochet forums where women wonder why more men don't get into it.

 rabidaskal wrote:
I wonder if there are 18 page threads in the knitting and crochet forums where women wonder why more men don't get into it.

Because it would go

"I wonder why more men aren't into knitting and crochet?"

"They're not that into it, they prefer paintball, wargames, videogames and things like that."

"Oh well, fair enough I suppose. Boys and their toys eh?"

"Exactly, but at least it gets him out from under my feet a few days a month."

"True dat."

And that would be an end to it.