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In a Tac squad, or Bike Squad, where you can get two (one special, one combi- on the sarge), which one is better?
Note: this is not in a command squad, where you can take 5. The benefits of five grav-guns probably outweigh those of five meltas, at least in a TAC list.

Melta
Pros
Can pen vehicles
Wounds everything on a 2+, except Wraithlords/knights, GUOs, and other Iron Arm MCs.
ID on anything T4 or below.
Ignores armour
Cons
Shorter range
Fewer shots

Graviton
Pros
Many more shots
Equal with melta at wounding Termies
Better at wounding Wraithlords/knights, GUOs
Cons
Terrible at wounding most everything else
Cannot pen vehicles
Can never ID anything

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, anything else to add?

I don't take grav on tac squads. They're salvo.

I'll take them on bikes all day though.

They compliment each other on bikes. You want to use both really. The real question is grav vs plasma....

Grav on bikes are great, because anything like kroot or orks that the grav wont handle, your twin linked bolter will. That being said, I still take a meltagun squad, If you face elder with 4+ wave serpents and no melta or any anti tank you will be wrecked.

 Orock wrote:
Grav on bikes are great, because anything like kroot or orks that the grav wont handle, your twin linked bolter will. That being said, I still take a meltagun squad, If you face elder with 4+ wave serpents and no melta or any anti tank you will be wrecked.

Aren't melta guns some of the worst anti-tank available against serpents? Seems you'd want volume of high str shots to get through the holo-fields and kill it through hull points. Especially as pens almost never stay pens.

I'd think Grav guns would be better as well as even a single immobilized result seriously hinders it's defenses.

Yep, I'd agree: against Serpents, massed Grav guns is the way to go, as you'll only need three 6's to kill it, and the Grav has lots more shots.

However, my question is about TAC lists, not about tactics for taking down a particularly nasty build of Eldar.

if your playing salamanders then melta are the way to go, cause vulkan twin links them.........


Any other chapter tactics and i think Grav guns on bikes are better.

In a drop pod list, meltas are probably better.

You never want to use salvo weapons on non-relentless models so the choice is pretty easy for tactical squads.

You get 3x the number of shots with a bike all at max range (because the salvo rule was very poorly thought out) so that is a great option. Other units can carry your meltas.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Yep, I'd agree: against Serpents, massed Grav guns is the way to go.

Your better bet against Serpents is to go with assault. Melta bombs and krak grenades will kill a serpent a lot faster and cheaper than any melta guns you can stick in a squad.

Hey look! Bikes can move 12" and then assault 6" reliably. That's an 18"-20" threat range around any bike squad for any wave serpent.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Yep, I'd agree: against Serpents, massed Grav guns is the way to go, as you'll only need three 6's to kill it, and the Grav has lots more shots.

However, my question is about TAC lists, not about tactics for taking down a particularly nasty build of Eldar.

You'd actually only need 2x 6's to wreck a wave serpent; if a vehicle suffers 2x immobilized results the second one causes an extra hull point of damage. So 1 + 1 + 1(bonus) = 3

And grav allows no coversave to vehicles either, so they are actually fairly efficient against serpents.

 Illumini wrote:
And grav allows no coversave to vehicles either, so they are actually fairly efficient against serpents.

I tried telling that to a player, he got all kinds of butthurt. Also he wouldn't allow me rerolls on my grav cannons because "how can it reroll failed pens if it dosent glance or pen".

He has a point, tank hunter won`t allow rerolls for grav weapons. However, the grav amp says your reroll to determine the effect against vehicles - it doesn`t mention anything about penetration, so there is nothing to debate there

Grav amp is purely for dev cents though (to my knowledge anyway, i didnt see anything that could take it besides them) and quite frankly grav cannon dev cents are kinda dumb. They will walk forward for 2-3 turns (depending on terrain) without running before they can shoot something they actually want to shoot, and by then they can be in some serious pain since they lack any invuls.

Not sure if i'd ever use grav guns. Im against list tailoring and in my meta its kinda 50-50 on whether or not youre against a high armor save army or not.

 Illumini wrote:
And grav allows no coversave to vehicles either, so they are actually fairly efficient against serpents.

Last I heard that was still in big debate. Have the RAW crew won out on that?

The real question is -- how are tourneys ruling it?

Havn`t seen the debate, and I can`t see how it can be a debate, the rules are clear. One opponent didn`t believe the no coversave and the 2 hullpoints on second shot thing in my last tourney, but by going through the relevant rules with the TO and my opponent, I had no problems.

EDIT: Ignore what I say below. This is the product of me not having read the salvo rule properly. I used to think its "stand still = fire max amount of shots; move = fire smaller amount of shots as per profile"


I fail to see why Grav Guns shouldnt be taken on tac squads. Yeah, if they move you get 1 shot less, but are your tac squads moving ALL the time? Are they? Maybe there's that one squad with a heavy weapon sitting there and guarding an objective.

And if that squad has a Las or Plasmacannon, something you used to take to compliment it was a plasmagun, right? 1 shot at 24", 2 shots at 12"

The Grav Gun with its 3 shots at 18" is a compromise and safer too (no overheat) - sure it doesnt have the reach of the plasmagun, but at 12"-18" it is thrice as effective, and at 0"-12" 33% more effective than the plasma gun, so deep strikers beware. Your squad's bolters can finish off those things the grav gun struggles against.

And if you are moving? At 0-12" it is just as good as the plasmagun, and at 12" to 18" twice as effective as the plasmagun. Always ignores armor, just like the plasmagun, but while the plasmagun wounds most things on a 2+ save monstrous creatures (where it begins to struggle, i.e. 3+, 4+, 5+ etc) the grav gun wounds anywhere between 2+ and 6+ depending on what you face. Those things that it wounds on a 5+ or 6+, your bolters can take care of anyway (exception to this are daemons, but their inv. save has been reduced to 5+ now; Ogryns are the other things that come to my mind, but nobody takes them). So while the plasmagun shines against terminators and other infantry, but struggles against MCs, the gravgun shines against terminators and MCs, but struggles against other infantry, but thats what youe boltguns are there for.

 Illumini wrote:
Havn`t seen the debate, and I can`t see how it can be a debate, the rules are clear. One opponent didn`t believe the no coversave and the 2 hullpoints on second shot thing in my last tourney, but by going through the relevant rules with the TO and my opponent, I had no problems.

I'll try to give the teal deer argument for allowing the save, without starting an argument. As written in the core rules and your codex, grav guns don't explicitly allow cover saves. However, the Dark Eldar FAQ allows vehicles with invulnerable saves to use those saves against effects immobilizing effects (specifically, dangerous terrain). Therefore, we have precedent for allowing vehicles to make saves against results that neither glance nor penetrate. Obviously, cover saves are not allowed during dangerous terrain tests, but these weapons don't test for dangerous terrain, nor do they have the ignore cover rule. Since we know vehicles can use saves against things that neither glance nor penetrate, the cover save should apply.

Sorry for derailing the thread. And no, I don't think tank hunters would work on grav guns. Since there's no FAQ precedent to rule otherwise, RAW does apply. Naturally, the grav amps have specific language to grant rerolls, anyway.

On topic: I would strongly advise against fielding grav weapons on your tactical squads. Bikes are a fine platform for them already, and the army should have some of each. There's too many targets where actual penetrating results are attractive, particularly necrons. (Open-topped AV13 vehicles giving +1 on the damage chart with quantum shielding? Yes, penetrating hits are useful here.)

 Sir Arun wrote:
I fail to see why Grav Guns shouldnt be taken on tac squads. Yeah, if they move you get 1 shot less, but are your tac squads moving ALL the time? Are they? Maybe there's that one squad with a heavy weapon sitting there and guarding an objective.

And if that squad has a Las or Plasmacannon, something you used to take to compliment it was a plasmagun, right? 1 shot at 24", 2 shots at 12"

The Grav Gun with its 3 shots at 18" is a compromise and safer too (no overheat) - sure it doesnt have the reach of the plasmagun, but at 12"-18" it is thrice as effective, and at 0"-12" 33% more effective than the plasma gun, so deep strikers beware. Your squad's bolters can finish off those things the grav gun struggles against.

And if you are moving? At 0-12" it is just as good as the plasmagun, and at 12" to 18" twice as effective as the plasmagun. Always ignores armor, just like the plasmagun, but while the plasmagun wounds most things on a 2+ save monstrous creatures (where it begins to struggle, i.e. 3+, 4+, 5+ etc) the grav gun wounds anywhere between 2+ and 6+ depending on what you face. Those things that it wounds on a 5+ or 6+, your bolters can take care of anyway (exception to this are daemons, but their inv. save has been reduced to 5+ now; Ogryns are the other things that come to my mind, but nobody takes them). So while the plasmagun shines against terminators and other infantry, but struggles against MCs, the gravgun shines against terminators and MCs, but struggles against other infantry, but thats what youe boltguns are there for.

This is why salvo weapons are bad on non-relentless models.. people don't understand why they're so awful. It's not a rapid fire weapon, you don't fire once at max and twice within half. IF you move at all you fire at HALF range *and* at the lowest # of shots. It is not "half range and max # of shots". Therefore if you move grav weapons fire twice at 9" inches not 3 times at 9 or twice at 18. I think if more understood how salvo actually worked there would never be a question of why it was such a poorly worded rule.

Never use salvo on non-relentless models if you can avoid it!

Right, I stand corrected sorry.

Grav v Melta, always melta

Grav v Plasma, always grav

The only reason to take grav instead of melta is your oppoent is a biomancy spamming fool. The next update to nids will make that far less common, so prepare accordingly, cause guard are on the way.

 juraigamer wrote:
Grav v Melta, always melta

Grav v Plasma, always grav

The only reason to take grav instead of melta is your oppoent is a biomancy spamming fool. The next update to nids will make that far less common, so prepare accordingly, cause guard are on the way.

I'd disagree with the above.
I think it comes down to the platform.
On bikes:
Grav vs. Melta - Grav.
Grav vs. Plasma - Grav
Grav vs. Flamer - Depends on the role you want for the unit. More likely Grav though.
On foot:
Grav vs. Melta - Melta.
Grav vs. Plasma - Plasma.
Grav vs. Flamer - Flamer.

Grav shoot the same amount of shots as plasma after moving, so grav not getting not puts it in the preferred category. Just because everyone says "grav on bikes" doesn't mean that's what you need to do.

 juraigamer wrote:
Grav shoot the same amount of shots as plasma after moving, so grav not getting not puts it in the preferred category. Just because everyone says "grav on bikes" doesn't mean that's what you need to do.

On foot? Only upto 9 inches.

On bike? They can move and still shoot thrice upto full range.

 juraigamer wrote:
Grav shoot the same amount of shots as plasma after moving, so grav not getting not puts it in the preferred category. Just because everyone says "grav on bikes" doesn't mean that's what you need to do.

As the guy above said.
You might be getting 2 shots, but only at 9". The plasma can still fire one at 24" or two at 12". Big difference.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Illumini wrote:
And grav allows no coversave to vehicles either, so they are actually fairly efficient against serpents.

Last I heard that was still in big debate. Have the RAW crew won out on that?

The real question is -- how are tourneys ruling it?

Via what magic does the Grav-gun/cannon ignore cover?

In short, it ignores cover on vehicles because it does not roll armour penetration, it rolls for an effect.

Against other stuff, it rolls to wound, so they get cover as normal

 Illumini wrote:
In short, it ignores cover on vehicles because it does not roll armour penetration, it rolls for an effect.

Against other stuff, it rolls to wound, so they get cover as normal

Gotcha. I thought it was against everything, which made me confused.

But as I mentioned earlier, there's an FAQ that allow vehicles to take saves against "effects", irrelevant of whether it comes from a glancing or penetrating hit.

I'd allow the cover save, but I acknowledge that the debate is ongoing. I'd appreciate if others would extend the same courtesy, rather than implying consensus where there isn't any.

Where I play, there is consensus on the no cover for vehicles. Unless it is overthrown by a FAQ, RAW, you cannot save against it with vehicles. If anyone want to play it differently, that is up to them, their opponent or their TO.