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There are 2 players at my club who want to collect germans and one who does.

12 year olds comment: "they have the best and coolest looking stuff"

16 year olds comments: "they had a lot of technological advancements and some very powerful weaponry for their time" (he plays a grenadier list so none of the big toys oddly enough)

19 year olds comment: "germans are just so cool though" (has all the big big stuff and when he starts to get FOW he will only play late for all the big toys.)

So in my area (and its something i noticed at college) a lot of the more immature players seem to be drawn to the german armies right off the bat. Of course some have a genuine interest in it and some collect it because they need to balance out the armies at their club but over all in my years of gaming the germans of FOW etc are like the space marines of 40k. Of course there are always exceptions as i know of some german players from other clubs who have genuine reasons for the german army.

In short: big toys, cool looks, glorification of nazi acheivements and a seemingly elite army is what gets a lot of people.

I collect imperial japan in FOW. A very potent force but it takes a lot of work to play them right. My army lacks a lot of what the other german player has access to and a lot of onlookers see this and all of a sudden the germans are getting the spotlight even though i win most of the time (at huge losses though). It just seems their lists are geared towards the general players.

But its not a bad thing here yet and at the end of the day at least people are playing haha.

It's very hard to separate the Nazis from the Germans, and generally it's also probably insensitive and inappropriate to do so.

That said, the American people as a general rule were actually quite sympathetic (Gallup/etc. polling done on a weekly/monthly basis throughout the period of 1935-1945 supports this) to the German people ... in fact, more so than to the British or French or others ... really the only people who came close in our esteem were the Chinese (it wasn't a racial thing, our hatred of the Japanese people ... we loved the Chinese people at the time).

The image of the average German, and of the German Army in World War 2, has always been a little on the rosy side through the American lens. It's really hard to accurately say why ... too many variables and questions ... but it's not really a "new" thing. The problem is always the Nazi connection; no one in their right mind can really empathize with the Nazi worldview (even if you could somehow erase the history of the Holocaust, their entire viewpoint was pretty extreme ... and ... you CAN'T erase that history, so it goes from extreme to utterly horrifying). Lots of people blatantly NOT in their right mind still often do, further confirming the point.

So as time goes on, and history gets fuzzy, and people start to have more of an impression of a subject being less "taboo," you're going to see very long-standing traditional views come out again ... and those, again, are of a very consistent opinion of Germans as being good ... Nazis bad. Even before the Holocaust was revealed, Americans commonly polled as "Germans are great, we like them, but Hitler's a dick ... and the Nazis are a little cray cray." Our opinion about the German people dropped when we found out about the Holocaust, but not as much as you'd think ... it just became more of "Why did the Germans allow this to happen? Did they just not know? Hitler's not a dick, he's Satan ... and the Nazis are both cray cray AND evil." We were as a people unwilling to readily believe the Germans were all evil (and they probably weren't), and generally drew conclusions oriented around the badness of Hitler/Nazi, not the wrongness of Germans in general.

Once you connect the historical facts of Americans' generally positive opinion of Germans with any other subject, such as miniature wargaming, you can see where it might flesh itself out. Then you get two subsets ... those who represent things like swastikas out of a commitment to historical representaiton, and those who do so out of a subtle fascination or obsession with the Nazis themselves. Therein lies the rub of what's appropriate ... but I suppose you have to judge each individual by their motives.

Some people just think it's cool to investigate, or play the part of the bad guy. Some people just want to represent history accurately. Many Americans LIKE Germans, and always have. Since we can be fairly certain that longstanding positive view has very little to do with a love of the party responsible for a horrific war and the murder of millions of innocents ... it's probably just a simple connection of a broad American positive impression of Germans with the miniature wargaming hobby.


Shorthand: Hey Germans, us Americans like you ... and we always have. We just hate Hitler and the Nazis. As long as we can disengage those two things ENOUGH from our playing games with your radical soldiers and handmade (lol) military tech (HANDMADE TANKS RAWR), awesome!

Way to go with the condecending tone there fella (Swastakowey). Good to know that you are an authority on what makes it acceptable to play a faction in a wargame - and just because I`m curious, what is a genuine reason to play germans?

Well you are right i was just trying to word it in a way that didnt look like i was ripping into the german players. When i mean genuine i kinda meant not for all the big toys reason really. Because if i took out all those bits it would simply look like i was generaloising all german players into one catagory which is far from the point im trying to make.

For example i play imperial japs, arguably more evil than nazi germany to put it simply, yet i play them because they arent normal in how they fight, have a flavour totally different to that of any other army in the game and what they lack in equipment and support they make up for with determination and spirit. (game wise im talking) and its reasons like the above that id call genuine. Rather than say i play japs because they look so cool using their katanas...

So i apolagize for the ill wording but genuine as in a thought out reason based on play style, the other players at the club etc not i like the big toys.

 Illumini wrote:
Way to go with the condecending tone there fella (Swastakowey). Good to know that you are an authority on what makes it acceptable to play a faction in a wargame - and just because I`m curious, what is a genuine reason to play germans?

If your crush is dating a Jewish guy.

There is always the risk of glorifying inappropriate "anything" when playing historical battles.

The Germans are the more powerful "go-to" force for FOW much like Tau or Eldar in 40k.

North America people are a little more forgetful of the Germans because they did not bomb here as extensively as in Britain or other UK countries.

We are a society drawn to technology and the Germans were renown for their skills.
They knew their stuff and it would be foolish not to respect the equipment and training they developed.

I have found in my own experience it is easy to make light of something that seems so long ago and was not any part of my personal experience.
I would not say this is appropriate, a reminder of downright evil events in the past can help us avoid similar in the future.

In the end I would say don't read too deeply in people's choice: they usually go for what looks the coolest for models in an army.

To get it out of the way, Not German, Just Live Here.

I'm not interested in WW2 wargaming (find it a bit boring and uninspiring as a period to game in, and also find it a little uncomfortable since some of the participants or people who lived through it are still alive).

However, if you're going to play a wargame based around the conflict, then I don't see any reason why you shouldn't play the Germans or whoever else. Any historical conflict is going to have it's good guys and bad guys. The Second World War is certainly unique in the particular horror of the holocaust, and the terrible racism and discrimination that preceded it, but those racist viewpoints were common at the time. There was anti Semitism, homophobia and disdain for gypsies and the disabled in most countries in the world at that time. Hitler tapped into that and the Germans took it further than anyone else had, but I figure most of the guys in the German army outside the SS were probably pretty normal for their time. Racist and intolerant perhaps, but not that different from the guys on the other side. The inhuman aspect to the holocaust was thought up partially because the psychological impact on the troops of shooting the Jews was too traumatic, as it likely would have been in any other country had they had an insane political movement like that.

Sadly, genocidal movements in other conflicts have proven the Germans to be far from unique in this tendency to demonize and persecute those perceived as "other".

So I guess I don't really get why people find it SO distasteful over and above the entire conflict, which is still near enough to be raw for a significant number of people. I don't think it has to have anything to do with obsession or approval of the Germans. For example, I am beginning a Dark Ages project at the moment, and I'm collecting armies for the Normans, Gaelic Irish and the Vikings. My upbringing and natural sympathies lie with the Gaelic Irish, but in reality that is due to an amount of indoctrination from my education, and I am collecting all of them for completeness sake.

In short, collect what you want, be ready to field some comments and questions from people if you pick something emotive.

 Talizvar wrote:
There is always the risk of glorifying inappropriate "anything" when playing historical battles.

The Germans are the more powerful "go-to" force for FOW much like Tau or Eldar in 40k.

North America people are a little more forgetful of the Germans because they did not bomb here as extensively as in Britain or other UK countries.

We are a society drawn to technology and the Germans were renown for their skills.
They knew their stuff and it would be foolish not to respect the equipment and training they developed.

I have found in my own experience it is easy to make light of something that seems so long ago and was not any part of my personal experience.
I would not say this is appropriate, a reminder of downright evil events in the past can help us avoid similar in the future.

In the end I would say don't read too deeply in people's choice: they usually go for what looks the coolest for models in an army.

To be fair, Germany's bombing is nowhere near the level of bombing we did to them.

 CaulynDarr wrote:
And from an aesthetic standpoint much of the German equipment is very striking.

Boom!

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
To be fair, Germany's bombing is nowhere near the level of bombing we did to them.

To be fair, destroying half of their country enabled them to rebuild with the most modern factories and systems they could, making them the industrial powerhouse of Europe and permitting them to dominate the EU

 CaulynDarr wrote:
And from an aesthetic standpoint much of the German equipment is very striking.

Hugo Boss did design most of their uniforms.

 BrookM wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:
And from an aesthetic standpoint much of the German equipment is very striking.

Hugo Boss did design most of their uniforms.

Indeed its true and much of their tanks were designed to be inspiring.

One should not underestimate that the biggest weapon the WW2 era Germany had was the propaganda and they utilized it in every mean or form.

Its of little surprise people get attracted to WW2 German forces, its a testament to the skill and talent of the designers who designed them to look inspiring.

For me I like the style of Germans, in the US the WWII German army is still the standard archtype of what bad guys should be. Everything in the cut of the uniform and helmets was intentionally designed to be imposing (particularly the SS) If you look at "tactical" swat uniforms used by modern police they mimick much of that imposing design. Darth Vader's helmet is a perfect transistion of the geman design made villian. It denotes a sense of threat, power and authority which is why it's attractive as the bad guy element.

I don't want to play German because I agree with their ideals, but all good villians need a strong set of principles not matter how horrible they may be. The random I kill everybody psycho villian is nowhere near as intimidating as the villian that believes in a cause and has a twisted sense of honor and duty. That's because we can usually see some of our own potential in that villian. You can take a person intending to be good and just but if you twist the situation around enough those principles that would otherwise drive them to be hero are what makes them into a villian.

Remember that most Germans embraced the Nazi's not because they wanted to kill Jews or to take over the world, they did it because they wanted to see a strong Germany. National pride in itself is noble cause, but unfortunately it was twisted by the leadership into something horrific. That's part of what makes the Germans so striking and why they are still the basic model for tons of TV, movie, and video game bad guys.

In addition to the darker visual style the fact that they had far superior weaponry is also a huge draw. People typically don't respect a weaker enemy or nation, when a nation is stronger or more advanced than your own it further increases the sense of threat and power that you are facing and at the start of WWII Germany was on the leading edge of the world.


In a simular light I've always preferred playing Rome in historicals or Imperial Forces in the various Star Wars games. Much of their design has echos of the "German bad guy", faceless helemeted goons, ruthless tactics and vastly superior force. If those things weren't as dominant as they were in that setting it'd make the good guys a lot less impressive. A good hero starts as an underdog but needs a very worthy bad guy to challenge him or the story falls flat.



(Before anybody brings it up, yes much of the German WWI design was intentionally patterned after Roman Imerial themes).




.

Plus, it's the Nazi's own fault for using a symbol that makes it look like you have a ninja star on your flag. The swastika would actually be an intriguing symbol on it's own, if only it wasn't coupled with something so bad.

I have some interest in the time of the Nutsies.

I am a WW2 reenactor and I do run around in a forest in a Wehrmacht uniform. I have third reich coins and paperwork in my room. I can sing "Panzerlied" in it's entirety although badly. The reason why? Well, my friend was doing Germans so I wanted to hang out with him. The reason I stayed is because of how fascinating the Wehrmacht is. They have the right mixture of being familiar, evil, mysterious and strong that captivates people. Of course they got their dark green (They're Dark Green uniforms. Not grey. Dark Green) behinds kicked all the way back to Berlin by a superior force but damned if their imagery makes you interested in how they got their asses handed to them.

This imagery, projecting power, mystery and familiarity in equal measure, of course would be latched onto by gamers and writers alike. They're the perfect bad guys. They are both terribly evil and terribly human. You can find yourself fighting and being them depending on how you see things. Of course what they did was vile and one of the worst things ever done to humanity. But it was done by humans and I think that is where they are separated from other villains.

That or mother fethin' Tigers and mother fethin' STG44's.


EDIT: By the, I run Soviets in BA. For the Motherland!

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Plus, it's the Nazi's own fault for using a symbol that makes it look like you have a ninja star on your flag. The swastika would actually be an intriguing symbol on it's own, if only it wasn't coupled with something so bad.

Can you really say that in the face of a Hindu?

Or anybody else who has this symbol in his/ her cultural inheritance or religion the past, lets see, 5 thousand years?

What? we should be thankful they didn't use a plain cross cause Christianity's symbol should be banned?

Swastika is an ancient symbol and the hysteria that surrounds it for the brief time Nazi Germany used it is at least disheartening.

Anecdotally, I was going to make an American FoW centered on Patton's 3rd Army when my friend was thinking Soviet, but then he swapped over to USA so I went German for diversity. Now he dropped out because he cannot see wargaming beyond GW and I'm looking into Americans again. Seriously though, the guy is on a yo-yo attached to Imperial Guard. He's recollected them like 5 times.

They're the ultimate badguy, with a pretty cool ass looking aesthetic (death's head, iron cross, feldgrau, secret police in black leather trench coats, etc etc etc ... jackboots + great coat - it's a badass looking aesthetic. The 3rd Reich had some pretty good designers working for them).

That's pretty much why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Plus, it's the Nazi's own fault for using a symbol that makes it look like you have a ninja star on your flag. The swastika would actually be an intriguing symbol on it's own, if only it wasn't coupled with something so bad.

Can you really say that in the face of a Hindu?

Or anybody else who has this symbol in his/ her cultural inheritance or religion the past, lets see, 5 thousand years?

What? we should be thankful they didn't use a plain cross cause Christianity's symbol should be banned?

Swastika is an ancient symbol and the hysteria that surrounds it for the brief time Nazi Germany used it is at least disheartening.

While yes, technically true.... didn't they turn it from the Hindu symbol... i.e. the arms are rotating in the opposite direction of the hindu sign ? I was always under the impression that while they ripped off the design, they tweaked it in this way on purpose.

I mean, they totally did steal it, not denying that, but a backwards R and a frontwards R are still relatively different things.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
To be fair, Germany's bombing is nowhere near the level of bombing we did to them.

To be fair, destroying half of their country enabled them to rebuild with the most modern factories and systems they could, making them the industrial powerhouse of Europe and permitting them to dominate the EU

And you're fething welcome for that!

The German Army was probably the most powerful land army in the world at its peak, and German troops were much better trained and disciplined than their western allies. As such they have kudos amongst fans of military history.

Hell the Spartans used to beat their slaves to death for entertainment, yet they're venerated for their soldiering.

Hold on...

How does this:

 Swastakowey wrote:
12 year olds comment: "they have the best and coolest looking stuff"

16 year olds comments: "they had a lot of technological advancements and some very powerful weaponry for their time" (he plays a grenadier list so none of the big toys oddly enough)

19 year olds comment: "germans are just so cool though" (has all the big big stuff and when he starts to get FOW he will only play late for all the big toys.)

Equal this...

 Swastakowey wrote:
... glorification of nazi acheivements...

"They look cool" is a subjective thing. I think the Nazi's had the best uniforms and the coolest looking tanks. That doesn't mean I'm trying to glorify Nazi achievements. Acknowledging that Germany during WWII had a number of excellent technological advances isn't "glorifying Nazi achievements" either - it's just the truth. They did. They had some really effective and advanced things and the allies spent a lot of time playing catch-up.

What i mean is yes they had amazing stuff but the common problem is they didn't have much of it or it wasn't practical. Yes they over came a lot of stepping stones but on the battle field a lot of it wasn't useful or there simply was not enough of it to be useful or effective over all. Yet how many video games and models do you see armed with STG (the assault rifle) for example? tonnes they seem to have access to hundreds of them. that's just an example. The over glorification of their achievements should be ever present on the battlefield etc yet because they are cool they are made easily accessible throughout wargames and whatnot it really increases their cool factor.

The above i am finding hard to explain but if you know what i mean maybe you can expand on it. Im not saying it as in you are proud to bear the nazi forces because they did stuff, im merely saying that a lot of the cool toys and tanks etc that make people play the ww2 germans was hardly common yet you see it in huge numbers frequently in wargaming.

I have one demo game of Bolt Action under my belt. That's the full extent of my WW2 historical wargaming. In that game, I played Americans and we were fighting the Germans. There were no vehicles involved. The Americans had a sniper team and the Germans had a MG42. Regarding ninety percent of the game, as far as I could tell, Germans and Americans were roughly equivalent. The coolest thing in that particular game, however -- at least IMO -- fell into the remaining ten percent; namely, the MG42 was truly fearsome.

Aside from their admittedly striking designs, German arms have a general reputation for being awesome -- whether we're talking MG42s or the dreaded 88s. And the German soldiers, even when considered as "bad guys," have a reputation for being capable, stoic warriors organized into elite formations.

Sorry to go off topic but how is bolt action? given your limited experience in the game id love to hear how good you thought it was. ive been looking at it and maybe try to get some mates into it but im not sure yet.

I had a great time losing so that should tell you something. The order dice are really cool. I also like the scale and the models are not too expensive, either. My buddy who also posts here is running a demo day at our LGS and the store is offering discounts. I plan to get a German and a Soviet starter army ... and maybe also a Japanese army given Warlord is releasing plastic Marines soon.

One point, I have heard here on Dakka -- and my experience confirms it -- that this is a terrain heavy game. So if you get in, plan to get lots of stuff for your men to use as cover.

Im thinking of going after some japs too. cool i might get some then.

They just recently did plastic Japanese so it's a good time. The books, being Osprey, are a tad pricey as are the order dice but those are one-time buys and the miniatures are relatively affordable and the ones I have seen are good quality sculpts with variety. The most striking thing about the game to me was the randomized activation sequence/order dice mechanic. It kept the game fluid (the dice account for everything you can do, making for a great play aid) as well as unpredictable.

 Swastakowey wrote:
What i mean is yes they had amazing stuff but the common problem is they didn't have much of it or it wasn't practical. Yes they over came a lot of stepping stones but on the battle field a lot of it wasn't useful or there simply was not enough of it to be useful or effective over all. Yet how many video games and models do you see armed with STG (the assault rifle) for example? tonnes they seem to have access to hundreds of them. that's just an example. The over glorification of their achievements should be ever present on the battlefield etc yet because they are cool they are made easily accessible throughout wargames and whatnot it really increases their cool factor.

The above i am finding hard to explain but if you know what i mean maybe you can expand on it. Im not saying it as in you are proud to bear the nazi forces because they did stuff, im merely saying that a lot of the cool toys and tanks etc that make people play the ww2 germans was hardly common yet you see it in huge numbers frequently in wargaming.

Panzer IV built: 8,800

Panthers built: 6,000

Tiger I built: 1,347

Konigstiger built: 492

MG42 built: 400,000+ in it's lifetime of '42- '68

Sd.Kfz 251 (halftrack) built: 15,252

Assault rifles were just coming into play and were still new. The more common SMG was widely used on both sides. I don't know about you, but the numbers seem significant enough to warrant their deployment on these advances. You have to remember how fast tech was moving in WW2 and they still shot them out of production and into battle that fast. Germans were making quality equipment, but it was quantity that won out in the end. Too many T-34s and too many Shermans and too many troops for them to handle.

I find it strange that so many people confuse Nazi's and German Soldier's. They are very different animals indeed. The German Soldier fought for his or her country, taking orders, shooting at the enemy and trying to win. Just like a US, Brit, French, Russian or any other Soldier out there at that time.

A Nazi, on the other hand, tended to be an extremist. Members of the Nazi Party were often treated with contempt by the average German Grunt. The S.S were feared and hated in equal measure. People get swept up in the history of WW2, imagining the German's did some awful things to their fellow man. Yes, they did, but certainly no worse than the Russian's did during their advance on Berlin.

The Russian's wiped East Prussia off the map, burning buildings down that could have offered them shelter from the weather (it was January), raping and murdering as they went, drunk or high on dangerous Chemicals and homemade alcohol. There are reports of Russian Tank Columns attacking German Civilians as they tried to retreat form places like East Prussia, mowing them down like cattle. Some of the Russian Journo's attached to the spearheading Tank Columns would write of their disgust at the behaviour of the Russian 'Tankists'.

I guess my point is, why are the Germans treated like the bad guys? During WW2, every Soldier from every country was capable of some disgusting atrocities.

I've been into FoW for about 7 years now, and I've progressively watched it become what it was.

For awhile it was really German heavy, and we used to joke that Battlefront's business was paid for by nazi gold bullion...but as of late the codex creep of allied (and now soviet) toys are really doing the Germans in...which makes them very very very hard to compete if at all.

Basically, it was all fun and games until someone at Battlefront thought it was time for the Germans to pay.

On topic though, I mainly play German themed armies because I have a fascination with the history, and the modeling aspects are nearly limitless.