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Is/was there anyone better than him? I know he was "undefeated" among the World Eaters and then of course on Terra he did good.

Have they ever said how did he died?

Jago Sevatar beat him once.

Not sure if they've covered that yet. It'd be kind of cool if he's still out spearheading some crusade somewhere.

Never heard of that guy - just read and he sounds boss!

I hope these type of guys get a model too.

I would love a Sigismund but also a Sevatar!

I have a feeling it involved Sevatar using a dirty trick, or taking advantage of Siggy being honourable or noble... Which is cool...

Sevatar should have a "Head butt" move if his model does come out

im willing to bet Lucius was better than him

How about Delvarus after the events in Betrayer?

IssacClarkeisBatman99 wrote:
im willing to bet Lucius was better than him

Nah, he is good but gets beaten a lot during the heresy... Raven guard, luna wolves, word bearers to name 3 legions who had warriors who beat him

 Massaen wrote:

IssacClarkeisBatman99 wrote:
im willing to bet Lucius was better than him

Nah, he is good but gets beaten a lot during the heresy... Raven guard, luna wolves, word bearers to name 3 legions who had warriors who beat him

He can't be that good, given his 'if you kill me you become me' schtick. It would never come up if he couldn't be beaten (outside of the fact he gets his face kicked in multiple times pre fall).

From the novella "Savage Weapons" these are ranked as the best fighters in the legions astartes: Abaddon, Jubal khan of the scars, Sigismund of the Fists, Sevatar and Corswain of the Dark Angels. Personally I would also add Lucius and Nykona Sharrowkyn

Lucius absolutely is on that list! Wtf?! I can't even begin to believe this has to be debated.

Hands down, Lucius is THE BEST SWORDSMAN EVER. PERIOD. And I'm not saying that because I necessarily like the little prick, but because that is how he was written.

Yes, pre-heresy, the tool gets smacked down quiet a bit, none more noticably than when he squares off with Loken. In fact, it is that fight with Loken, and the shame endured as a result of that loss, that Lucius is molded forever after as THE BEST SWORDSMAN EVER. He's fanatical to that end. So much so that between his first fight with Loken and his last fight with Loken, Lucius' skills increased exponentially to the point Loken could barely stay on his feet with Lucius playing games.

Now, it's noted his Armor of Shrieking Souls should be some kind of invalidation? Not so. Lucius is a champion of Slaanesh, the BEST according to the Chaos Codex. So skilled is Lucius that he competes with other swordsman on their level so as to enjoy the fight as much as possible. Now tack on all the Warp stuff that has been added onto him, plus the focusing of his intent on the sword itself, and you have a bladed monster that IS a sword.

So that said, based on Dantioch's list; Abbadon is number 1 hands down, but he cheated to do that by stealing Drach'nyen from the Tower of Silence. I've heard great things about Khan, but I wouldn't have expected him to rank higher than say someone like Angron or Lucius.

Also, if we're bringing Lucius and Abbadon to the party, then we must be talking about Pre-Heresy, which still leaves guys like Angron at the head of the pack.

How about this though: In what respect of H2H are we talking? Fist punching? A duel between swords? What about gun play? I don't know if anyone fits the bill for the last, but this becomes an important question to ask when you consider the outcomes of fights like Loken v. Lucius in their first fight. Lucius went into the fight thinking they were going to duel and Loken won the fight by breaking his nose.

So all out, whoever is left standing wins? Or do we have some measure of the arenas, like Lucius has when the Emperor's Children are fighting in Fulgrims Arenas?

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Jago Sevatar beat him once.

I see people bringing this up a lot on dakka, though it is sadly not true. Jago head butted Sigismund and got disqualified as result. Sigismund and Jago fought each other to a standstill in that duel, and it did not end until Jago decided to cheat. NO ONE WON THAT DUEL.

I'd say Sigismund is certainly one of the best. It is REALLY hard to determine who was truly the best Marine in Hand-to-Hand combat though.

My vote is for Corswain. I like his name...

My list wasn't in any way organised so I don't know which of these are actually the best one just that these would compete for the title.

The best way to define hand-to-hand combat for this tread is probably if you threw two of these champions into an arena with their melee weapon of choice, who would win?

And as for Lucius being the best swordsman in the world, he got killed pretty easily by Sharrowkyn although that was at the begining of the heresy and he's most certanly gotten better since then.

Gabriel"In the balls"Seth.

 Dantioch wrote:
And as for Lucius being the best swordsman in the world, he got killed pretty easily by Sharrowkyn although that was at the begining of the heresy and he's most certanly gotten better since then.

I'll put it this way: Lucius is so good that a Chaos God refuses to let him die. Now this seems like some kind of backwards logic that would otherwise illustrate how crap he is, however I'll add this preface: Lucius fights to the talent of his enemy NOT HIS OWN. This is why he dies. It's because he loves fighting so much, he'll die to have an enjoyable fight.... and then Slaanesh reanimates him in the body of his killer. lol

That is a crazy powerful duelist, imo.

If we're not just talking about the Heresy and with Primarchs exempt, these space marine special characters are the..:

...Best Space Marine Swordsman
Either of these two so far:

Castellan Garren Crowe
WS8 | I6(10)
Perfect Warrior and Master Swordsman are amongst his noted special rules.

The Sangiunor
also WS8 | I6 and primarily wields a sword.

Neither Lucius nor Sevatar match either of them in terms of the profile categories relevant to 'skill'. We'll have to await to see where Sigismund's FW HH release will land him amongst them.

...Best Space Marine Close-combatant
A much more open category. I reckon several characters (Abaddon (v.40k) Draigo, Logan Grimnar, Mephiston and The Redmaw to name five) would, along with the two above, give Sigismund a good run for his money.

Didn't Fulgrim best Lucius in The Primarchs? Didn't he toy with Lucius so that Lucius actually believed he could win up until theu dueled?

 Deadshot wrote:
Didn't Fulgrim best Lucius in The Primarchs? Didn't he toy with Lucius so that Lucius actually believed he could win up until theu dueled?

Fulgrim is a Primarch though, and himself one of the best swordsmen amongst the Primarchs. No Space Marine would have stood a chance.

I really hope Sigismund beats the tar out of Lucius when we finally get to the Siege of Terra.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Didn't Fulgrim best Lucius in The Primarchs? Didn't he toy with Lucius so that Lucius actually believed he could win up until theu dueled?

Fulgrim is a Primarch though, and himself one of the best swordsmen amongst the Primarchs. No Space Marine would have stood a chance.

I really hope Sigismund beats the tar out of Lucius when we finally get to the Siege of Terra.

I'm with most of ya'll about Lucius. He's an arrogant turd who has had way too much handed too him for his own good. But he is what he is. Should Sigismund and Lucius fight in the Siege of Terra, I imagine Lucius would spend the whole time baiting Sigismund, and ineffectually at that, to which Lucius would do as he typically does (except where Loken was concerned) and just not care. That's the problem with fighting a guy like Lucius (something my brother actually embodies quiet well, now that I think about it. lol): You try against this guy and he's like "Ok. We'll do it your way and if I lose, well I wasn't trying. I was fighting as good as you are. " and if you don't try hard, Lucius is still baiting with "Oh come on! You can do better than that? MYEH! "

Very, very obnoxious. Usually, the only way to deal with these "never try" types is to out right kill them...but with Lucius, if you kill him you become him and he gets better and stronger. :O

Here is a better question: Would you WANT anyone to be better than Lucius? Because if that's so and they kill him, then you've lost your guy. lol

All that said, I don't see Lucius getting crushed in the Battle of Terror, unlike Kharne who was apparently left mangled on a pile of bodies and then stopped being dead and started being angry again. lol

Can't have all the champs take an arrow to the knee in that fight.

The way to win against Lucius; Walk away.

 Deadshot wrote:
The way to win against Lucius; Walk away.

...And get stabbed in the back of the head. lol Or worse yet, tentacle raped by his Lash. Eww...

Back away then. And fend off the lash. But in either case, don't fight him, he wins somehow. He kills you, or dies happy with his fight, and then respawns to troll away.

 Deadshot wrote:
Back away then. And fend off the lash. But in either case, don't fight him, he wins somehow. He kills you, or dies happy with his fight, and then respawns to troll away.

Yup. He is the ultimate troll. lol

So you don't fight him. Can't lose if you don't play. And then he can't win.

 Deadshot wrote:
So you don't fight him. Can't lose if you don't play. And then he can't win.

Still assuming he doesn't fight you. Think about it...as good a fighter as he is, do you really think you can keep backing up and he'll just get frustrated and leave you alone? There is no chance. XD

Best you could do is be the apex of an honorable swordsman, hope you beat him in combat without killing him and let his nerves rattle on the reality that he was truly beaten. Unfortunately, this backfires too. This is exactly what Loken more or less did and in response Lucius fed Loken to Abbadon. @.@

Sad story. True story. Almost as bad as Aximand killing Torgaddon; like a little brother killing his favorite older brother, because the louder brother told him too.... slightly off topic. lol

Or just not swordfight? Put a bullet through him. Take off his arms and legs. Put him in a Dreadnought sarcophagus. Toture him.

Why are some of you bringing up Primarchs as a reference in this thread, lol?

Yes, Lucius was so inferior to Fulgrim that he was paralyzed in fear/awe at how powerful Fulgrim was in hand-to-hand combat.

Any Primarch could beat Lucius. With their fists. Probably unarmoured.

The same goes for basically any Legionary that isn't a powerful psyker, like Kor Phaeron (Who actually DID defeat an armed and armoured Guilliman) or Ahriman.

Now, Sigismund has currently not done much in the series, but he is hyped as being absurdly skilled.

And Lucius? Kharn is probably better than him.

Erebus was able to give Lucius a very good fight, and almost fought him to a stalemate.

Kharn fething destroyed Erebus. It was the single most one-sided Space Marine fight I've ever read about in a 40k novel. Kharn attacks Erebus three times in the time it took Erebus to blink, he batters him around, cuts his hand off, and cuts his spine in half. Erebus only survived through the use of sorcery; he teleported away. Kharn was crushing him so casually that he was friggin' bored, lol. Kharn at his best is simply one of, if not the most dangerous Marine in h2h during the Heresy, with the possible exception of Argel Tal, whose daemonic possession gives him quite the advantage.

Though, branching outside of the Heresy, there are probably Marines better than Sigismund. Mephiston might not be as skilled in martial combat, but being strong enough to rip a Carnifex in half (Not hyperbole) makes up for it. The Sanguinor as well, due to man-fighting one of/the most powerful Bloodthirster in single combat and winning. And of course, there is, sigh, Draigo, whose prowess in hand to hand combat is nothing short of demigod-like.

Also, Savage Weapons also names Raldoron of the Blood Angels as one of the most formidable Marines.

Unless Erebus fighting Lucius to a standstill happened recently, I don't see how its really relevant. Lucius has shown the most rapid increase in martial skill in the entire series behind Lorgar. In the space of a year he went from getting one-shotted by Loken to destroying him in moments and casually solo'ing the Phoenix Guard. Less than a year after that he's fighting entire squads of enemies by himself and destroying them while doing silly gak like holding one hand behind his back or hopping around on one leg, because fighting normally would be too boring and easy.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Unless Erebus fighting Lucius to a standstill happened recently, I don't see how its really relevant. Lucius has shown the most rapid increase in martial skill in the entire series behind Lorgar. In the space of a year he went from getting one-shotted by Loken to destroying him in moments and casually solo'ing the Phoenix Guard. Less than a year after that he's fighting entire squads of enemies by himself and destroying them while doing silly gak like holding one hand behind his back or hopping around on one leg, because fighting normally would be too boring and easy.

And similarly a Kharn that was incapable of any rational thought was beating Torgaddon and Loken at the same time in martial combat (They had to use a Dozer blade to beat him as you recall). As for mook-killing, to be blunt I'm not really that impressed, Kharn does the same gak every other scene in Betrayer, hacking through Tetharchs (Sp?) one after another, alongside "lesser" combatants. And while Lucius has improved since he dueled Erebus, we haven't seen evidence of improvement to the extent that he'd be capable of outright dominating a renowned (If cowardly) warrior like Erebus. Kharn's blows were literally so quick as to not be perceived by fellow Space Marines, which IIRC has never been the case for Lucius.