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 fishy bob wrote:
And I second clively on that it lets other companies fill the niche that is games that are actually fun to play. The only people who should be missing the specialist games are those who are nostalgic about them. If you like the sound of Necromunda, Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic there are plenty of clones out there.


The skirmish market is pretty crowded, but it's not as though Necromunda and Mordheim were ever amazing rulesets in that regard. The real point of those games was the persistent gang development system, but current skirmish systems seem focused on ruthlessly tight balancing in one-off games. It's terribly unfashionable to let the fluff get into the crunch (and will probably remain so until GW ceases to be dominant in the market). Mantic are the only company I'm aware of which are interested in a skirmish game that scratches the RPG itch.
   
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 fishy bob wrote:

And I second clively on that it lets other companies fill the niche that is games that are actually fun to play. The only people who should be missing the specialist games are those who are nostalgic about them. If you like the sound of Necromunda, Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic there are plenty of clones out there.


While I believe that you are right about Necromunda and Mordheim in which they weren't very good one-off games (like ntw3001 said, their strength was the campaign mode), Battlefleet Gothic was a really good game on its own and I don't feel like any other space battle game out there really fills its shoes.
   
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 Easy E wrote:
However, I do really miss Aeronautica Imperialis and still play it a lot.


If you play it a lot what exactly are you missing? I play Bloodbowl regularly along with necromunda and Epic 40k. I don't miss any of them because I still play them.

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Well, it is really hard to get more players into a dead game. The group I play it with just keeps dwindling instead of growing.

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I feel ya there. It doesn't help that most of those groups were small to begin with.

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My gut feeling is that it is somehow connected to the Chapterhouse case. That case is the cause why GW is trying very hard to only release rules that currently have a model to support them; ie no model--no rules.

Because of that, there are simply too many holes in specialist's game line-up that can easily be filled by competitors. I feel with the combo of that legal case, plus the diminishing returns money-wise, put the final nail in specialist's games.

   
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Pious Warrior Priest





English Russia.

It could just be a matter of efficiency.

Rather than make moulds for several games, concentrate on the 3 games. If fans of the specialist games (except for a few) want to play, say Mordheim, Necromunda they can use the existing 40k/Fantasy miniatures, want to play Inquisitor? then there's the roleplay game, which used Inquisitor as a base, drop anything else we don't make models for, such as Battlefleet Gothic.

Less moulds making less figures will cut cost, while leaving more room for expansion with the other 3 games if profit/need arises.

If the specialist games were losing fan support, why not?

Oh man, the first monster I see I'm going to sneak up behind him, whip out my wand, and shoot my magic all over his ass.

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 Easy E wrote:
Well, it is really hard to get more players into a dead game. The group I play it with just keeps dwindling instead of growing.


This is a good point...a duh... I made sure to have multiple teams and armies available for the one's that I still play so that I can pull someone in to play without them needing to find minis first. I can actually out fit a league of 7 players for Bloodbowl myself with each time having enough models available for growth and have 3 massive armies for Epic scale gaming that could outfit 2-3 players each even for some bigger battles.

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 necrovamp wrote:
want to play Inquisitor? then there's the roleplay game, which used Inquisitor as a base

40kRP was largely based on Fantasy Roleplay, not Inquisitor. While there's some similarity, it's more coincidence than providence.

The games cannot be seen as interchangeable, as they play in very different manners. I wouldn't use 40kRP for the PvP play that Inquisitor was designed for, as Inquisitor's more detailed action and damage systems work considerably better for that job. But, on the flip-side, those same things make it pretty poor for handling a PvE game (not that 40kRP's combat system is exactly sprightly).

In fact, I've still yet to find anything I'd actually consider an equivalent to Inquisitor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/10 20:44:15


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I havn't played 40krp, so I can't really comment on it, but i was led to believe it was pretty much the same. I have used Inquisitor for a 'roleplay' (It was Player V Storyteller and had the effect of being a first person shooter on the table top) having said that I wouldn't want to use it for full on rp.

Oh man, the first monster I see I'm going to sneak up behind him, whip out my wand, and shoot my magic all over his ass.

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I seem to remember hearing about the Chapterhouse case – someone sued GW for not providing models there were rules for?
   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

Yeah, unless I get a look at GW's books and they show unequivocally that the SGs were a flop on their own merits(or rather, lack of them), I'm going to stick with the more obvious reason; GW killed the SGs because they always end up having to take "hard decisions" due to their own previous mistakes and ineptitude.

SGs had to go because GW are trying to go full-plastic and the SGs weren't making enough cash for it to be worthwhile putting them through the same metal>finecast>plastic box cycle as the main ranges. Why didn't they make enough cash? Because there weren't enough players. Why weren't there enough players? Because GW stopped supporting the games with new rules and models. Why did they stop supporting them? Because there weren't enough players at the time to justify devoting resources. Again, why too few players? Because GW had previously run down support over a period of time as they "focused" their business by gutting their website and magazines.

The company has been busily boxing itself into a corner for the last decade or so, reacting to the fallout of their own previous errors rather than the market at large; sadly, fighting the fires with cost cutting and gimmickry seems to be the one aspect of business in which Kirby truly excels, so it'll probably be a good few years yet before anyone else can pry either the company or the IPs out of his deathgrip and do something interesting with them.

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Cosmic_Seth wrote:
My gut feeling is that it is somehow connected to the Chapterhouse case. That case is the cause why GW is trying very hard to only release rules that currently have a model to support them; ie no model--no rules.

Because of that, there are simply too many holes in specialist's game line-up that can easily be filled by competitors. I feel with the combo of that legal case, plus the diminishing returns money-wise, put the final nail in specialist's games.



The main reasons IMO is the removal of metal minis from GW's range, in order to produce specialist ranges in resin they'd need to remold everything which costs money and they are a very slow mover that doesn't justify the switch.

The secondary area pertains the CH case, but likely not in the way you suggest. As part of the case findings UK law only protects the model designs for 15 years once they are out of publication and considered to be abandoned after a certain period. (plus many of the themes were sourced from 2000ad & Dredd which they makes it difficult to defend ownership of) They are protected much longer in the US however GW always focuses primarily on the UK market, if they can't protect their properties in the UK then it's likely not worth maintaining.

Many of the specialist games are very close to that 15 year bubble and the company mind set is likely to cut them free rather than continue to invest in a line that may prove to be difficult property to manage legally.


A third possible reason is that there are rumors that GW has been streamlining it's product line in order to sell the company, which would pair up well with removing the legally weak properties. They've been undertaking massive cost cutting by reducing their retail base in the US in order to keep stock prices inflated while their market share has shrunk drastically in the last year. Rumors indicate they've lost as much as 30% of their market in the US last year and since they can no longer cut costs further 2014 will likely be when GW holders will see a significant dip in stock price. This is the ideal point at which to make a sale of company bid as you want to sell the company at a perceived strong point before the shares drop in value.

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West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

And there's always the fact that historically, GW loves to promote the line for a Specialist Game before it comes out so there is a large amount of initial sales, but then hates to keep the game around and spend effort to continue to sell it. Even when Specialist games was at it's height in the early 2000's, you would see a game like Battlefleet Gothic get an article and advertise as new releases in White Dwarf for about six issues, and then everything would go silent like the game never existed.

They love those initial splurge sales, but then hate to keep anything around that can threaten their core lines. Look at Space Hulk 3rd ed. It wasn't even a matter of changing over to plastics, and there is a strong demand even these years later, but they refused to sell it after the initial glut of "Limited Edition" purchases. $100 copy of Space Hulk means little Timmy isn't buying $100 of Space Mehreens.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/29 00:01:57




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 whitehorn wrote:
I think if we ever see specialist games again it will be in a pre Christmas box set, and they have done so badly in the past (im looking at you dreadfleet) that I think Gw will avoid them for a good long time.


Agree somewhat but Space Hulk was no flop. I see a few box sets sprinkled over the future, targeted at the main games. No support needed as the models will all be interchangeable with 40k and WFB.

I loved specialist games but I can understand GW not continuing with them if they earned no money. It's only the money coming in that keeps our hobby growing and improving.

Still want to see a new BFG though!!

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bloodbath wrote:
I seem to remember hearing about the Chapterhouse case – someone sued GW for not providing models there were rules for?
actually GW sued someone for providing models there were rules for that had no model.

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I don't see how anyone can bring CHS into this. GW gave up on Specialist Games long before CHS came along.

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- Made by a company ran by an ex-GW employee.

- Sculpted by a lot of people who have done GW sculpts at some point.

- Rules written by the person who was in charge of Necromunda support during the specialist games golden age (fanatic magazine etc.):



Specialist games are still out there if you want them, just not made by GW themselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/30 10:56:01


 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

True. It's just unfortunate that I love the 40K setting so much.

Although I have all the files of sprites I need, plus the NetEA rulebook, to play Epic:Armageddon with all the options for every 40K race, with flat printed-out units instead of models.

One of these days I need to get a new photobucket account and share them for everyone to use. Other than the fun of painting the models (which I miss), you get absolutely everything out of the Epic experience. All my vehicles and infantry stands are even the correct scale.



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I'd recommend Imgur or Flickr over the hot mess that is Photobucket these days.

 
   
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 scarletsquig wrote:
- Made by a company ran by an ex-GW employee.

- Sculpted by a lot of people who have done GW sculpts at some point.

- Rules written by the person who was in charge of Necromunda support during the specialist games golden age (fanatic magazine etc.):
Spoiler:



Specialist games are still out there if you want them, just not made by GW themselves.


You know, funny you should say that but.. a friend of mine said exactly the same thing when we played Deadzone for the first time;

"Deadzone is the kind of game GW would have made in 2013 if they had never taken on Lord of the Rings, had the 'boom' and become publically owned".

Nowadays he name 'Games Workshop' itself has almost become some kind of ironic moniker for what the company once represented. It's difficult to explain to younger players, who have only ever known the 3 'core' systems, that in the 90's the company was such a hot bed of creativity and there was just so much fresh and exciting stuff coming out all of the time. I think it will certainly be remembered as the 'golden age' of the company.

Now, a lot of the guys who made those games have moved on, obviously Jake Thornton but also Alessio, a couple of the key guys who work for Battlefront etc.

But, regardless of company tag, both Dreadball and Deadzone are great little games. They're fun, dynamic, and fast - again similar in concept to the games that people (I think mistakenly) liken them to, in Bloodbowl and Necromunda, but they've got 15 years of games development and '2010's' stamped on them. If you're a fan of wargaming I don't think I'm overstepping the mark to say that these new games coming out from Mantic are pretty much essential purchases.


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It's difficult to explain to younger players, who have only ever known the 3 'core' systems, that in the 90's the company was such a hot bed of creativity and there was just so much fresh and exciting stuff coming out all of the time. I think it will certainly be remembered as the 'golden age' of the company.


Exactly. Though i think you could expand that to the early 2000's, too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/01 15:29:51




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
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Going way back to the OP in regards to "where to get the rules". The PDFs are still hosted on the actual Games Workshop site. Who knows for how long...

Necromunda:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480009a&categoryId=6700007a§ion&aId=21500022a

Mordheim:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480008a&categoryId=6700006a§ion=&aId=21500021a

etc.

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Coastal Bliss in the Shadow of Sizewell





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

The sad thing is the basic idea behind Necromunda with a few tweaks could be a pefect way to get new players into 40K, and offer up models to established 40K players to make them either get in for the fun of it, or even raid the range for models for their 40K armies. It seems like a win win to me if done right.

Hell this is a quick example I knocked up in the last half hour just off the top of my head.

Necroumda - change name to something more relevant, like 40K Skirmish. You do a faction for each army. Which gives a tie in to all the armies available and effectively advertises them in the game and then design the warbands so to inspire folks who play 40K to give it a go, or grab the models for their 40K armies.

Space Marine faction - Scout Patrol: do a Captain Scout (as folks have asked for a 10th marine Capt in Scout armour ) Some snipers with cloaks, a mix of bolt pistol and bade, Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Flamer, Melta gun, Plasma gun and a couple of Sgts. Dynamic poses.

Dark Angels - Fallen Hunters: A force of heavily marked up Deathwing in mk 6/7 with bits and pieces on them to represent their duty.

Blood Angels - Black Rage redemption Force: Death Company looking for the final end in combat, leader is a Chaplain guiding them to their end while performing final duties for the chapter. Have a Winged special, a Blood Angel equivalent to a lone wolf, a fallen angel type that could be used as a HQ. Also a Blood Priest attached to the company, so in variant colours.

Space Wolves - 13th Company: A Captain, Wolfen, battered and worn armour veterans, Space Wolves who have never stopped the grand crusade against their chaos brethren.

Imperial Guard - Kaskrin Unit: The squad leader can double as a HQ in a Guard army, do a Commissar, psyker and various poses of Kaskrin. Also make sure there are a couple of females in there to give Guard players access to some official GW versions.

Adepta Sorotias - Sorotias Lamia Patrol: basically a hit squad for the Sorotias, new unit style, that could translate into the main army eventual, or allow folks to use them as counts as Battle sisters. More in the field look, have one or two with shaved heads, couple with the hair growing longer where they've been out in the field for a while. Sniper models, mix of weaponry, CC figures.

Grey Knights - Heretic Absolution Squad: Grey Knights hunting the heretic where ever it dwells, Grey Knights on constant hunt, so extra gear and special equipment. Led by a Psyker/capt.

Chaos Marines - Black Legion Assassin Squad: Black Legion themed chosen, hand picked by Abaddon to kill a target. Base them on some of the art of the previous Chaos Dex, some they would make some stand out Chosen, as well as being a fun force to play.

Chaos Daemons - Summoned Fiends: A mix of Daemons for the four powers, the leader being a undefined herald type, with a couple of new Daemons based on the lesser powers, maybe throw in a mad psyker who summoned them as a special.

Eldar - Exodite Scouts: Feral looking Eldar, with a few new CC weapons, and a long Shuriken rifle that has a 24" range. Also maybe a pet creature/raptor style beast. Make sure at least two of them are female, potentially have a Warlock/seer in there who is female as well.

Dark Eldar - Slavers Cult: Dark Eldar sent to collect the very best for the arena, elite wyches, and Dark Eldar warriors under the watchful eye of a cruel and arrogant taskmaster. Might have a beast of some kind in there as support.

Necrons - Flayer Cult: Have a Necron Lord Flayed One, plus a mix and match of Flayed One models, introduce malfunctioning Immortals or some such to grant a couple of models with firepower and show the degrading Necrons into the Flayed One mindset.

Orks - Blood Axe Kommando's: Orc Warboss, nobz (dress one nob in a fake commissar uniform) and boyz all done in a Kommando style, which would give inspiration for Ork players to either add or Start Blood Axe warbands for their armies.

Tau Empire: Infiltration team: Elite Pathfinders, geared up to the nines, with a Kroot Shaper and two bodyguards as cc support, maybe a lone hound. Oh and 150% make sure their is a Demiurg in there as a special support figure.

Tyranids - Genestealer Cult: Patriarch, Hybrids and Stealers, it sells itself, and allows folks access to long wanted models, which can then be used in Tyranid armies, or the basis of counts as Guard armies etc.

Additional Forces..
CSM - Fallen: Mix of Fallen Dark Angels inc a Cypher like Leader and cultists, could do a corrupted Ogryn or something like a Monster the cultists unleash on their foes.

Guard - Tanith First and Only: Scout Guard, and a reference to the books.

Marine - Ultramarine Tyrannic Veterans: an update of the old models, with a couple of HQ themed in their look, a Librarian and Captain, (so as to support the Cassius Figure in the 40K range)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 11:01:26


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Sounds a bit like the design notes on the last page of Da Uvver Book.

 
   
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Coastal Bliss in the Shadow of Sizewell





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

Seems another reason why I need to get hold of an old copy of Gorkamorka at some point. Still one of the few GW games I've never owned or played.

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

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Paisley, Scotland

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Seems another reason why I need to get hold of an old copy of Gorkamorka at some point. Still one of the few GW games I've never owned or played.
I freakin' loved Gorkamorka. The setting was fantastic with the heavily influenced by Mad Max style of buggies, trukks & traks. Orks always were my favourite army, but dabbled in a few others to some extent before GM absolutely brought that love of Orks back to the fore, leading into buying things for a full on 40k force too. It even played into the initial Necron 40k releases as well with the fluff about the Pyramids. I duly snapped up a ton of those metal monsters too for my second proper army. The only thing I wish they had done is instead of the Gorkers vs Morkers thing, gone for Clan rivalry like the Necromunda houses so there would have been 6 initial mobs to pick from prior to the Digganob supplement.

You can find it on eBay but the prices I've seen people want for sealed, mint boxes are crazy. I got really lucky that a few years ago, a pal and I managed to get one and split it between us for about £50. He's since sold me the other half as he's dropped his Ork interest in favour of his two main armies (Tau & Daemons). If you find one around that price again I'd consider that an absolute bargain as the traks that came out with it are *STILL* on sale (til the new 'Dex anyway), the old trukks can easily sub for buggies (I'm gonna stick some Goff Rockers in the back of one for a laugh), the 12 Orks make a decent old skool trukk mob and along with the books you get some kick ass scenery - the fort is superb even now.
   
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West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I pretty much play 40K skirmish by using the stock 2nd edition rules, and just ignore the pages on squad cohesion and I use very small points costs games. Also, you may choose a force from any of the 2nd edition codexes, but don't have to buy full squads- you just go by the cost for each figure you want to use. The only slowdown is Space Marines, who don;t have an individual model cost for squads (so you have to do simple division, big whoop).

For instance, just throwing a "350" points cap on a game lets a Marine player use a single 10-man tactical squad with heavy and special weapons upgrades, and a veteran sergeant w/ some special gear. Losing the squad cohesion rules lets each figure operate as independently as the controlling player wishes, just like in Necromunda/Gorkamorka.

It's pretty fun. The only stepping stones are Wargear cards and if players want to use psykers, who can be too powerful for such small games, unless maybe you use the drastically simplified psyker rules in the main 2nd edition rulebook.

Gorkamorka:

I think that the modern range of miniatures would make for awesome games of Gorkamorka.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/02 15:34:45




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
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Carmarthen, UK

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Gorkamorka:

I think that the modern range of miniatures would make for awesome games of Gorkamorka.
They totally do! I prefer them over the original models.

 
   
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West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Just checked the Psionics chapter of the original 2nd edition rulebook, and it's so perfect for a skirmishing-level version of the pretty cumbersome Psychic Phase. There are 6 different powers and psychic mastery (1-4) grants access to up to that many powers, and a higher psychic mastery makes powers easier to pull off.

Perfect for that unique Necromunda style level of "simplistic depth".

I can't wait to try some games out, because a game of Orks versus any other 40k race gives the best of both worlds, where you have the 40K "feel" while a smaller number of models and a vehicle or two give the Orks much of that "Gorkamorka" feel at the same time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/02 18:09:41




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
 
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