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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean, what audacity someone would have to tell me I I can't use my shoebox!!

Thats a straw man argument. Asides from the fact that noone here has actually said they want to use shoeboxes as Land Raiders...even if you did want to, all you need is your opponent's permission, period.


Opponent says no > use something else, or find a different opponent who will consent to it.

Opponent says yes > you get to use it.

Peregrine doesn't like it > completely irrelevant if hes not your opponent. He has no authority and influence over games he's not involved in, however much he likes to think so.


(regarding shoeboxes and other weird objects used as stand ins...I wouldn't like it either, and normally I wouldn't consent to it, except when my opponent/friend/etc wants to try out various units proxying random objects before committing to buying a model, in which case I might do it as a favour).

Yes, it is a strawman, but it uses the same logic, and the goal is to point out flaws in the logic.

You're also right that what the opponent says goes, sure, but the thread is a thread asking about whether or not people would allow the Dreamforge Leviathan to be used as an Imperial Titan. Saying that I don't like it is fine, saying everyone else shouldn't allow it is fine too.

Giving an opinion of what should be the case (i.e. everyone should disallow it) is not the same thing as holding a gun to your head and forcing you to refuse to play it. He's stating his opinion, as asked for in the thread, and his opinion is that it is too improper and should not ever be allowed.

The ironic thing is that the day FW releases a Tau Titan, everyone here that says "Tau shouldn't have Titans, it breaks the immersion" will be fundamentally wrong in their narrow point of view. In the case of the Leviathan model, which looks nearly identical to an Epic 40k Knight Titan, saying it does not fit the 40k setting is a statement in ignorance. From to beginning, 40k has always been a game where cool looking models and crazy scratch-builds had a place (I'm looking at you, deodorant bottle Space Marine Grav-Tank!).

I feel sad seeing this great garage hobby turn into an elitist snob grudge-fest over the past decade, where a law degree is needed to win a rules argument, and an art degree is needed so as not to offend the immersion of others.

Thankfully, the interwebz represents the vocal minority rather than the silent majority, allowing the rest of us to enjoy the fruits of cool looking models (regardless of manufacturor) and awesome games we can all talk smack about to our buddies (be they Bro or Fem).

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The ironic thing is that the day FW releases a Tau Titan, everyone here that says "Tau shouldn't have Titans, it breaks the immersion" will be fundamentally wrong in their narrow point of view. In the case of the Leviathan model, which looks nearly identical to an Epic 40k Knight Titan, saying it does not fit the 40k setting is a statement in ignorance. From to beginning, 40k has always been a game where cool looking models and crazy scratch-builds had a place (I'm looking at you, deodorant bottle Space Marine Grav-Tank!).

I feel sad seeing this great garage hobby turn into an elitist snob grudge-fest over the past decade, where a law degree is needed to win a rules argument, and an art degree is needed so as not to offend the immersion of others.

Thankfully, the interwebz represents the vocal minority rather than the silent majority, allowing the rest of us to enjoy the fruits of cool looking models (regardless of manufacturor) and awesome games we can all talk smack about to our buddies (be they Bro or Fem).

SJ

I am willing to believe the Tau have Titans when the Tau get Titans in the fluff. As soon as that happens, I will switch sides of the debate, hands down. Like the God debate - if I ever see incontrovertible proof of his existence, I will switch sides in a heartbeat.

It does look like a Knight Titan, which is awesome. So make up your own Knight Titan rules for it, and I'd be very happy to play against you with it. I'd be happier with you making up rules to fit the mini than arbitrarily grabbing a mini to use for a specific set of rules.

As far as the rest of your post, eh. I disagree. I don't mind all the bickering and the fighting, because it's all, as you say, on the internet. So no worries about it - keep on keepin' on.

EDIT:
Hell, Knight Titan rules would be easy!

Smaller, less well-protected than the Warhound, with only one layer of Void Shield. So, say, 13-13-12, 6 Hull Points, one Void Shield layer. As for weapons, I know the old knights could have a Battlecannon, so it can have one of those, or a Melta Cannon like off of the Devil Dog (or the melta weapon from the Caestus). Then, perhaps a Titan Close Combat Weapon. Sound good?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
They contradict the fluff, and the fluff is one of the main reasons people play 40k. Things like Tau titans make no sense in 40k fluff ...

It's interesting to point out that many people said much the same thing about the entire Tau race when it was first introduced/released.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am willing to believe the Tau have Titans when the Tau get Titans in the fluff. As soon as that happens, I will switch sides of the debate, hands down. Like the God debate - if I ever see incontrovertible proof of his existence, I will switch sides in a heartbeat.

The fact that Forgeworld has released a 100% official Tau Titan is not incontrovertible enough for you?

I quote, from none other than Peregine himself.

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

Hell, Knight Titan rules would be easy!

Smaller, less well-protected than the Warhound, with only one layer of Void Shield. So, say, 13-13-12, 6 Hull Points, one Void Shield layer. As for weapons, I know the old knights could have a Battlecannon, so it can have one of those, or a Melta Cannon like off of the Devil Dog (or the melta weapon from the Caestus). Then, perhaps a Titan Close Combat Weapon. Sound good?

Absolutely. Using a custom ruleset would be ideal, but its much less likely to be approved by your opponent than a proxy model using an official GW ruleset that has been written and er... 'balanced' by GW's game designers.

^^ Exactly, re knight titan. I only say use Leviathans as Warhounds because there aren't current official rules for knights (that I know of?). Leviathans do seem to be more closely styled towards knights. If there were official, current knight rules I doubt I'd hesitate to suggest using them.

If this is the official model/design for knight titans, it really does resemble the leviathan - however the leviathan trounces it in looks.


There is a definite line between forgeworld rules and homebrew rules. I'm in the FW = GW camp, so all FW is fair game for basically any game where tournaments haven't specifically prohibited it. Homebrew rules are for close friends only, at least until a big org like Dakka comes out with a comprehensive patch (so wish this would happen).

 bossfearless wrote:
I think we can all agree that someone whose sig contains the words "sell me your fw superheavies" is probably not in touch with the economic issues that contribute to most of the lower cost titan alternatives.

Yeah, because someone who is looking for ~$150 rare and OOP models is completely out of touch with economic issues, while someone who is arguing about how they should be allowed to use their $150 toy in a 40k game (and not even a standard everyday game, a special expansion game) understands very well what it's like to play a game within a limited budget.

The fact that Forgeworld has released a 100% official Tau Titan is not incontrovertible enough for you?

What "fact"? Neither FW nor GW have ever released anything remotely resembling a Tau titan, or included anything remotely resembling a Tau titan in the fluff.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If you're not participating in the game, then its not your game, period. You have no right to dictate what other people do when they play Warhammer 40K without you. If people want to invent their own fluff for their own games and their actual opponents consent to it, using original characters, entirely original races, original and unofficial models and even a mix of proxies and official rules/profiles than thats their business, not yours. All they need is their actualy opponent's consent, not you.

So where exactly are you getting this ridiculous idea that when I say "I hate it" in a thread asking "what's your opinion on X" that means that I'm going to come to your game and force you at gunpoint to take your titan proxies off the table?

I suggest you do the same, and we can both live in blissful ignorance of each other from now on.

Nah, one-sided ignoring is a lot more fun. Then I get to publicly criticize you all I want and you never get to respond.

 Peregrine wrote:
What "fact"? Neither FW nor GW have ever released anything remotely resembling a Tau titan, or included anything remotely resembling a Tau titan in the fluff.

What is it, the Manta? The gigantic Tau ship that can carry heaps of models and has a lot of guns and is something like a grand.

 Yonan wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
What "fact"? Neither FW nor GW have ever released anything remotely resembling a Tau titan, or included anything remotely resembling a Tau titan in the fluff.

What is it, the Manta? The gigantic Tau ship that can carry heaps of models and has a lot of guns and is something like a grand.

That's a superheavy flyer (small starship, really), not a titan.

Yeah but we're just talking semantics here. It's a titan sized model - or bigger? It's huge, it literally has the space to carry the models iirc.

 Peregrine wrote:
What "fact"? Neither FW nor GW have ever released anything remotely resembling a Tau titan, or included anything remotely resembling a Tau titan in the fluff.

Someone else said that Forgeworld has released a Titan-sized walker for Tau. I'd seen some images of new Tau walkers on the FW site but didn't know their size, so when I read the comment about Tau titans I connected the two.

You should direct this remark at the poster who brought up "Tau Titans" in the first place.

So where exactly are you getting this ridiculous idea that when I say "I hate it" in a thread asking "what's your opinion on X" that means that I'm going to come to your game and force you at gunpoint to take your titan proxies off the table?

You've stated several times that you dislike the idea and think that no-one else should be allowed to do it.

You have not been saying "I don't like it and wouldn't allow it myself but if you want to do it, go ahead". You've been saying "I don't like the idea and wouldn't allow it, and I don't think you should be allowed to do it either. Anyone who wants to do this is a power gaming, fluff ignoring cheapskate TFG who just wants to spam D-Weapons".

There wouldn't be an issue here, if you hadn't expressed your opinion as a Cease and Desist demand that nobody use Leviathan's as Warhounds (or use any non-GW models at all), and thrown some condescending insults in for good measure.

Nah, one-sided ignoring is a lot more fun. Then I get to publicly criticize you all I want and you never get to respond.

You do that if you wish. I'll settle with never again having to listen to your smug arrogant insults. A satisfactory result for both of us, yes?


Oh, and you still havn't confirmed that you've watched this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAWQhXUYDWs

I would allow you to use the model, and I would allow you to use the Warhound rules for it. But I wouldn't allow you to refer to it as a "Warhound Titan" during the game. It's not a Warhound Titan. Call it a Warhound Titan and I'll pick up my models and leave.

A rediscovered STC pattern, calling it a crusader and just using the warhound rules works well for you then, right Bob? That's what I do. Blood Ravens search for lost lore and tech and are on good terms with Ad Mech so it's pretty damn fluffy for me imo.

That works well for me, yes. Having it as a count-as in terms of rules works for me. Not as a count-as in terms of fluff.

40K fluff is good, so I'm a little pickier and more "protective" when it comes to that. 40K rules are garbage, so the way I see it you can do what you want.

That would be fair.

I see lots of comparisons of the leviathan as a toy..

Yeah because GW doesn't sell models that look like toys..........

Here's a few good examples:













Lets be honest the quality of here, the products do look toyish, and tbh if someone wanted to convert/use alternate stuff/both for these units, then I would have no problems with it, after all im not going to force them to use and play with ugly things that they don't like because "its official".

And lets also be honest here, Wargaming minis ARE toys, hence why we all joke about our Man-dollies and mini action men, so to be spouting that someone else should not use their toys because it doesn't fit his/her idea of what their toys fight is kinda petty don't you think?

And the same goes with the Warhound titan, some people may not like the look of the Warhound titan, and some may even hate it just as much as someone who may hate the Centurion models, and may find the Leviathan a much more cooler looking model to create, so why should they be penalised for having a model they wanted than one they did not? at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if a model is official or not, if someone would rather invest into a Leviathan because it looks more awesome than, a Warhound in their opinion, why should they be penalised?

I see certain posters tarring all apoc gamers with the same brush here, about buying stuff because of the justification that it is cheaper, so lets get this straight:

Most apoc gamers do not care about winning a game of apoc

Most apoc gamers only care about putting awesome models on the table and recreating a Michael Bay movie in 40k.

Only few gamers will apply apoc to a competitive sense.

Even fewer will look at how to break apoc by "Spamming D-weapons"

The very few minority who do look at "Spamming D-weapons" are the one you want to avoid since they only really care about curb-stomping you and will not gain satisfaction until they do, and will apply the same logic in regular games in 40k.

As I have said again and again, most apoc gamers do not care about such things and look for only a fun time, not curb-stomping you.

As they say "A few bad apples to ruin the bunch"...

@aegisgrimm: That khorne leviathan is pretty sweet. That's the 15mm version? My buddy out here has the regular sized one (28mm?) and I'm interested to see a size comparison between the two.

As far as I know, that was one of the new 15mm Crusaders converted to replace the Khornemower. And it looks ten times better than the mound of skulls on tracks GW produced.

As far as I can tell, 15mm crusaders are scaled perfectly to be Knights, and prices very nicely to be able to afford a Household (squad). Just count the ranged weapon arm as a "rotary battlecannon", where instead of working full-on like a minigun, after each shot it rotates to the next "ready" barrel, like a giant revolver.

This argument has gone full circle so many times now I have completely lost count.

All it boils down to is one side screaming "You only want it cause you want D weapons and you are to poor to afford GW official D weapons, ergo, stop playing apocalypse"

where as the other side "sure you can use it, just alter the rules a bit to represent it being a smaller warhound and maybe save up to get the real one?"

People getting so worked up and stubborn in their ways is what ruins this hobby, it's just a hobby in which fully grown men push little plastic toys about a board. If you don't want to face the imposter warhound, simply don't and say so, I'm sure the player wont take offence if you give justified reasons which make sense

People getting so worked up and stubborn in their ways is what ruins this hobby, it's just a hobby in which fully grown men push little plastic toys about a board. If you don't want to face the imposter warhound, simply don't and say so, I'm sure the player wont take offence if you give justified reasons which make sense

Got it in one.

But I especially like how buying a 100 model, regardless of what it's supposed to be subbing for, makes you a cheapskate. Sign of the times of current 40K.

And my entry (not my work) on the subject of "poor idiots using cardboard boxes just so they can become cheapskate Apocolypse players overnight", titled "Eat it":

 AegisGrimm wrote:

People getting so worked up and stubborn in their ways is what ruins this hobby, it's just a hobby in which fully grown men push little plastic toys about a board. If you don't want to face the imposter warhound, simply don't and say so, I'm sure the player wont take offence if you give justified reasons which make sense

Got it in one.

But I especially like how buying a 100 model, regardless of what it's supposed to be subbing for, makes you a cheapskate. Sign of the times of current 40K.

And my entry (not my work) on the subject of "poor idiots using cardboard boxes just so they can become cheapskate Apocolypse players overnight", titled "Eat it":

That carboard box looks amazing! Wish i could turn coke cans and breakfast boxes into well made models. Another thing, reckon those slating carboard models have all their scenery from GW and do not use homemade buildings or terrain?

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:


Apart from that, I have nothing against the use of alternative models. In fact, alternative models are just great for the IG, as they are supposed to be extremely varied. I use the Eisenkern Stormtroopers for my IG army and they look great.

Got any pictures on Dakka?

Not yet, but I'm planning on uploading a few pictures once the army is fully finished.
They fit in really well with my Iron Hands. Now I only need to find some viking IG to go with my Space Wolves...

And the cardboard box above looks amazing. I would make an exception for that

Looking forward to it.

Didn't think thus was still going. Give it some modified rules apart from the Warhound. Maybe some weird Forge guardian or something. I doubt we know of every Titan variant. Heck we find new tech with every Imperium release... Stormraven, Dreadknight, Centurion Armour. Make something up I'm cool, but a Warhound is a Warhound. Lots of opportunity to write a story for that thing, don't just be a Warhound.

Haven't changed my view on not being a huge fan of it but to each their own.

 Matt1785 wrote:
Give it some modified rules apart from the Warhound. Maybe some weird Forge guardian or something. I doubt we know of every Titan variant. Heck we find new tech with every Imperium release... Stormraven, Dreadknight, Centurion Armour. Make something up I'm cool, but a Warhound is a Warhound. Lots of opportunity to write a story for that thing, don't just be a Warhound.

People are much less accepting of custom rules than they are custom models, with good reason imo. Giving it the warhound rules, which are the nearest fit official rules (that I know of) seems like the best idea, even if yeah you call it something else. Rediscovered STC gives ample opportunity for that. When players start designing rules for their own models you get the (often well earned) perception of the balancing being atrocious.

Just falls back to talking with your opponent first. Just make sure people are cool with what you've done and you are set. But I agree some may be less trustworthy to write rules then others... Just review them first.

I believe this issue may garner more attention when FW releases it's Lords of War option for the Warhound. I'd suspect more push back then. And it would be fair. I'm lucky with the group I play with. Everyone just wants to have a fun time.

I've used empty granola bar boxes for terrain, I am certainly not opposed to this (but wouldn't mind seeing some warhammerifying done to it to make it fit in a little more nicely).

A majority of the Warhounds around here are the armorcast ones, so I feel fewer people would object to a Dreamforge Leviathan. I have 34 titans (no, not kidding) so I'm not a "cheapskate". Sure, 15 are scratchbuilds, but still.

I bought my leviathan because it looked cool, its style fit with my grey knights army, it's easier to transport, and I love the swappable weapons option, that you can't do with the Forgeworld Titans.

Here is an Armorcast Warhound next to a leviathan.

Just in case anyone was wondering, here is a warhound next to the Epicast Knight, and a 15mm Leviathan. This is the older resin leviathan that is actually about and inch taller than the new plastic one.

Cheapskate! ; p

Scale pics always nice, thanks for posting them. I'm scared to ask for a titan collection shot. I *want* to, but I'm worried about what it will do to my hobby budget.

I would allow it, though I think it would ruin the aesthetic of the game (my personal opinion). I also think that of the armourcast titans and a few other things. Occasionally in the case of a 1v1 apocalypse game with maybe 3-5k points per side where the point was to depict an epic clash of models (rather than the usual apocalypse "bring everything and duke it out" mantra) I would ask my opponent not to use it on the grounds that it would spoil the look of the two armies lined up and ready on the field. Say what you like about it, but I think the lack of detail and big, smooth surfaces all over it really detract from the 40k aesthetic. I would also wish to disallow the armourcast Warhound on the same grounds, and in this sort of battle I wouldn't want unpainted models either.