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You make it a hobby, not FW or GW. I find it surprising that some feel they are losing something when their opponent has not shelled out hundreds to models.

It would be _better_ for everyone if alternative models were widely accepted.

You complain about the size of the models, I point you to the Riptides that have been modeled in grouching. Again, BRB cares about the size of your base, not how you model your figures. And even in that situation GW is modest about it, allowing you to use whatever you really want if it makes sense.

One more time, you lose nothing if your enemy proxies or uses an alternative model.

Naw wrote:
You make it a hobby, not FW or GW. I find it surprising that some feel they are losing something when their opponent has not shelled out hundreds to models.

It would be _better_ for everyone if alternative models were widely accepted.

You complain about the size of the models, I point you to the Riptides that have been modeled in grouching. Again, BRB cares about the size of your base, not how you model your figures. And even in that situation GW is modest about it, allowing you to use whatever you really want if it makes sense.

One more time, you lose nothing if your enemy proxies or uses an alternative model.

Except for respect for them. I also feel disrespected.

Do you mind if I use my sister's former, now headless, barbie doll as a Titan, so long as guns are rubber-banded to her arms and she's painted in my army's colors?

I'll ignore your childish comeback and instead ask if you feel disrespected when someone does not field a perfectly painted army against you?

Try to get over it and you'll enjoy this hobby more.

 Peregrine wrote:

And so does every other generic "giant robot" toy. Do you think you should be able to put a random anime mech on the table and call it a Warhound "variant"? Or a $10 robot toy from the local walmart?

I would just like to point out that Emperors, Warlords, Reavers, and Warhounds are classes of Titans, not limited to one specific example of each. Imperators and Warmongers are both types of Emperor-class Titans. Of the Warlords, we have MkI Mars-pattern "beetle-backs", MkII's (looks almost "Lucius"), and MkIII's. Of the Reavers we have Goths, Huns, Mars, and Lucius. Of the Warhounds, we have Mars, Lucius, and the original MkI's.

Yet, Warhounds are in a classification of Titans called "Scout" or "Light" titan that Knight-class titans also belong to. Both Reavers and Warlords are classified as "Battle Titans".

Within all that background fluff, at no point are we ever informed that the examples we currently have are the only types of Titans in existence in 40k. Specifically, we are told that other classes, patterns and types of Titans exist, from single crew Knights to city-sized Emperors. A more humanoid light Titan that fits somewhere between a Knight and a Warhound that carries the same weaponry as a Warhound and fills the same role as a Warhound does have its place in 40k.

Personally, I'd use a Leviathan as a Hun-class Reaver (2 arm weapons, no carapace weapon, same stats as a Warhound).

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I would just like to point out that Emperors, Warlords, Reavers, and Warhounds are classes of Titans, not limited to one specific example of each. Imperators and Warmongers are both types of Emperor-class Titans. Of the Warlords, we have MkI Mars-pattern "beetle-backs", MkII's (looks almost "Lucius"), and MkIII's. Of the Reavers we have Goths, Huns, Mars, and Lucius. Of the Warhounds, we have Mars, Lucius, and the original MkI's.

Yet, Warhounds are in a classification of Titans called "Scout" or "Light" titan that Knight-class titans also belong to. Both Reavers and Warlords are classified as "Battle Titans".

Within all that background fluff, at no point are we ever informed that the examples we currently have are the only types of Titans in existence in 40k. Specifically, we are told that other classes, patterns and types of Titans exist, from single crew Knights to city-sized Emperors. A more humanoid light Titan that fits somewhere between a Knight and a Warhound that carries the same weaponry as a Warhound and fills the same role as a Warhound does have its place in 40k.

Personally, I'd use a Leviathan as a Hun-class Reaver (2 arm weapons, no carapace weapon, same stats as a Warhound).

SJ

Seems reasonable. I doubt that there are city-sized Emperors, though. Ridiculously humongous, reaching beyond the clouds, for sure. But probably not city-sized.

I sat here and read all 8 agonizing pages of this thread. It was rather entertaining. hehehe I'm on the side of "Leviathan = Warhound", but I am biased because I'm purchasing a Leviathan Mortis to convert into a Khorne Lord of skulls. The "official" GW model is atrocious at best. I would never spend my hard earned cash on that ridiculous model. I love the "chaosy" look of the Mortis model. I'm going to add the left handed vulcan cannon as a substitute for the Hades gatling cannon, mount the included scythe onto the back of the right claw hand (Great cleaver of Khorne), and then mount some type of nasty looking cannon to symbolize Gorestorm cannon. I don't play very many games, due to my location, but I would find it extremely unlikely that I would be denied a game using my "proxy" other than the "official" GW abortion. I'm a decent kit-basher as well as a pretty good painter (pics in gallery), so it should turn out pretty awesome. Just my .02

Yikes...is this even an issue. At my FLGS, I've seen plenty of titans, probably 90% scratch built or "off-brand" models, and I've yet to hear a single complaint.

jasper76 wrote:
Yikes...is this even an issue. At my FLGS, I've seen plenty of titans, probably 90% scratch built or "off-brand" models, and I've yet to hear a single complaint.

There's a pretty distinct difference between 'complaints/not playing against it' and just disliking it. Personally, I dislike the idea of that model as a warhound stand in. I'd still play it, but if I were discussing with a friend over a brew post game, I'd probably point out I'd *personally* prefer that he bulk it out or mod it in some way to resemble more closely the warhound from FW or armorcast.

There's always the option to piss everyone off all in one basket, by using a non-GW model, AND by using a homemade paper model that "doesn't cost anything" so you are "that poor guy" as well.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
There's always the option to piss everyone off all in one basket, by using a non-GW model, AND by using a homemade paper model that "doesn't cost anything" so you are "that poor guy" as well.

But you can't do that! because it is not the overprized GW/Forge world one!

It seems that Peregrine is a purist or playing the Devils advocate?, i don't care i use anything i can get my hands on call it a Anime Mecha Warhound Pattern from the Forge world Japanus 7.
Deal with it!

I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?

 sub-zero wrote:
I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?

Because you are a horrific cheater akin to the guy who sneaks in an extra Revenant in his Ork army while other player is looking away.

/sarcasm

Woo-Hoo!! Just bought a Warhound off of eBay today with the arms for the measely price of $450... solid investment if I do say so myself...

Cool paper titan... is that really made of paper? If so, props.

 sub-zero wrote:
I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?

No, I wouldn't really like that. The different shape interferes with TLOS, and non-WYSIWYG equipment is kind of annoying. Why can't you either use the model's actual rules or convert it to follow the character's rules?

 Peregrine wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:
I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?

No, I wouldn't really like that. The different shape interferes with TLOS, and non-WYSIWYG equipment is kind of annoying. Why can't you either use the model's actual rules or convert it to follow the character's rules?

While I'm pretty laid back and wouldn't have a problem playing either way, personally I'm more inclined to make house rules for my titan as a Paladin knight titan(or some Chaos equivalent) , simply because when I look at it, it doesn't look like a Warhound to me. But I guess it might be harder to find people willing to play against a converted titan with house rules than a converted titan using official rules.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Personally id rather see a mix of variants and not bother about the price.

Except this isn't a Warhound variant. The size and shape are wrong, the guns are completely wrong, and there's a melee option that doesn't exist for the Warhound. The main reason to use it over a real Warhound is the cheaper price, and that's the argument that leads to Apocalypse games full of random toys as proxies for all of the big Apocalypse units.

Ok well whats wrong with that argument? Its not a random toy. Its a model. It is pretty much the same size. Doesnt look butt ugly. Costs far less. And are you a little special? Because im 100% certain weapons can easily be converted... and a variant doesnt need to be the same size and shape exact. It has the same basic shape: legs, a body, a head, and arms. Its like saying a small dog isnt a variant of a large dog. If someone moves the turret of a chimera to the back, widens the tracks and puts armored skirting around it, is it not able to be a chimera in your books? Got all the parts that make it a tank but the basic shape has been changed...

This ^

I would totally allow it, it looks awesome. Of course it would be nice if he tried to make it a bit taller, and maybe converted the weapons a bit - but hey, most people don't know what they look like anyway.

My friends and I would totally be fine with it, but then again, we are all very laid back easy going people who like to have fun.

 Peregrine wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:
I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?

No, I wouldn't really like that. The different shape interferes with TLOS, and non-WYSIWYG equipment is kind of annoying. Why can't you either use the model's actual rules or convert it to follow the character's rules?

Actually the FW Deamon prince is taller than the GW Be'lakor model, so the TLoS advantage would go to my opponent, not myself. As for the wargear, the GW Be'lakor wields a sword where the FW Deamon prince wields an axe. Wouldn't either one of those edged weapons have the same effect when cleaving through power armor? Furthermore, Be'lakor's "weapon" is an etherblade and quoting the GW dataslate "it's ghostly form in eternal transience between shape and shadow; solidity and silhouette." Meaning that his "weapon" can take on any form or shape that he wishes, as in a huge axe. Would you like to argue your point further? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if your being sincere in your stance or just merely trolling for the sake of trolling.

 sub-zero wrote:

Would you like to argue your point further? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if your being sincere in your stance or just merely trolling for the sake of trolling.

His truths are self evident, why bother egging him to further off topic posts? He says it is so, so it is. You should just leave this one as it lies. I have the model of which you speak. I think your larger problem is the wings for him to fly. What are you going to use for wings that would be as finely detailed as the DP model?

Again, back to OT, with the inclusion of FW to the list of allowable Super Heavies, the idea of the cheaper titan is going to be rough. I plan on setting up a game or two with mine once I've built and painted it. Just going to run it with the Vulcan and the Plasma Blast in Escalation.. save the D for Apoc.

 Matt1785 wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:

Would you like to argue your point further? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if your being sincere in your stance or just merely trolling for the sake of trolling.

His truths are self evident, why bother egging him to further off topic posts? He says it is so, so it is. You should just leave this one as it lies. I have the model of which you speak. I think your larger problem is the wings for him to fly. What are you going to use for wings that would be as finely detailed as the DP model?

Again, back to OT, with the inclusion of FW to the list of allowable Super Heavies, the idea of the cheaper titan is going to be rough. I plan on setting up a game or two with mine once I've built and painted it. Just going to run it with the Vulcan and the Plasma Blast in Escalation.. save the D for Apoc.

He doesn't need "physical" wings, he's a psyker, he can just levitate himself to where he needs to be.

WIP of my Chaos Knight Titan/Leviathan/War Hound/ Whatever

bladeiai wrote:
WIP of my Chaos Knight Titan/Leviathan/War Hound/ Whatever

Very nice!!! Those Leviathan models just scream 40K to me!

 sub-zero wrote:
Actually the FW Deamon prince is taller than the GW Be'lakor model, so the TLoS advantage would go to my opponent, not myself.

Not necessarily. A taller model is easier to see, but also has an easier time seeing over cover.

As for the wargear, the GW Be'lakor wields a sword where the FW Deamon prince wields an axe. Wouldn't either one of those edged weapons have the same effect when cleaving through power armor? Furthermore, Be'lakor's "weapon" is an etherblade and quoting the GW dataslate "it's ghostly form in eternal transience between shape and shadow; solidity and silhouette." Meaning that his "weapon" can take on any form or shape that he wishes, as in a huge axe.

Since I don't feel like buying garbage I haven't read the character's rules. I was responding based on your claim that the model's equipment wasn't WYSIWYG. You can't just turn around and say "surprise, it's actually WYSIWYG and you're trolling".

 sub-zero wrote:
He doesn't need "physical" wings, he's a psyker, he can just levitate himself to where he needs to be.

Oh, ok. So it isn't WYSIWYG. If the model doesn't match the rules (no wings, wrong weapon, etc) then why can't you just use the rules that do match the model? Why do you need to give it different rules?

That's great Blade, awesome weathering on the paintjob.

 sub-zero wrote:
Very nice!!! Those Leviathan models just scream 40K to me!

 Yonan wrote:
That's great Blade, awesome weathering on the paintjob.

Thank you for the compliments and I'll try to post some more pics as it progresses. To me it looks like a heavy knight class titan or maybe a smaller version of a Reaver Hun class titan. I have some of the arms on the way and should have them in a few days. I'm thinking my best bet is to call it some type of heavy knight titan and using a slightly modified (or un-modified if that is more acceptable) War hound datasheet.



These two were at the same stage as the other, but just in case anyone wanted to see a few more views.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
As long as it fits their theme, has had effort put into it and looks remotely like the part then yes, yes i would.

2) It's funny that you would go on and on about the rules and converting models and stuff, but you're uncomfortable with simply writing your own rules to make it a knight titan. It's smaller than a Warhound, has a completely different style from a Warhound, and doesn't have weapons that look anything like the weapons a Warhound can take. It DOES, however, look almost exactly like a knight titan would (in my imagination), has weapons systems that the old knights could get (and since the knight no longer has an official model, the weapons are less of a big deal because NO ONE knows what some of them look like) and it's almost exactly the right size to be a knight titan.

No, It's actually much closer to a Warhound titan in size than a knight. As I have all ready shown in comparison pictures the Leviathan is as tall as an Armorcast Warhound, and has more bulk. The only "official" 40k scale knight ever produced is also pictured, and it is MUCH smaller than an Armorcast Warhound.

Some more pictures of my slightly more Chaosy Knight Titan:
(sorry my camera kind of sucks)

The things on his shoulders are supposed to be removable Void shields (magnetized) in case anyone was wondering



Also I got this datasheet from another member if anyone is interested:

And there is a thread here discussing stats in case you want to field one in a game: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/569772.page

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
As long as it fits their theme, has had effort put into it and looks remotely like the part then yes, yes i would.

I'm talking about an unconverted model, like the Leviathans people want to use as Warhounds.

I am not gonna be a (insert nasty word here) to someone with brains because they spent less on a model that the expensive one does no differently.

I guess you don't value the fluff of having appropriate models, or the appearance of the superior real models? TBH with that kind of attitude why play 40k? If the models are just game pieces and you value the rules/gameplay most then why not play a game with rules that don't suck?

I'm not looking to get the leviathan mortis for my IW because it's cheaper. I can afford the warhound and I have never ever gone out of my way to be cheaper on a conversion build. I honestly dislike the warhound kit. It's poorly made and ugly and it's overall look doesn't fit my army on top of the fact that every single model in my army is highly converted and using that chunk of misshapen resin as a basis for conversion would be a lot of work for not much pay off. I'm planning to use official FW weapons, bulking up the top section, lengthening the legs, maybe bigger feet, bringing the head out a little bit, and using tons and tons of chaos bits. I haven't gotten to making it yet but does that sound like adequate level of conversion to be more faithful to the (horrid) original? Feel free to take a peek at my gallery to see my expensive conversions. Replacement cost of the defilers alone would be over $200. I just made an obliterator squad from the centurion kit that cost easily $120 to make. So like I said it's not an issue of cost for me it's that I don't think the warhiound kit is worth the effort of spending 40hrs fixing before I can even think about the crap load of work converting a big ass hunk of resin is gonna be.

Wondering how the leviathan compares size wise to the new cerastus knight as it is larger than the gw knight

I wouldn't allow it. It's about 25% smaller and the wrong shape compared to the real warhound.

Titans should something you put a huge amount of money, effort and love into to make something that looks amazing on the Tabletop