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The difference is a 2+ to take out that 40 pt warrior vs a 4+ followed by a 6 to take out a 35 point rhino.

It's a pretty big difference.

 stonehorse wrote:
A Krak Missile can take out most tanks and vehicles in one shot

With a lot of luck. It needs to hit, bypass a cover save, penetrate armour, and roll well on the damage table as it gets no bonuses.

At most, you need to hit a warrior, wound on a 2+, and bypass cover.

 stonehorse wrote:
can kill most meq and eeq characters with one shot.

Which will, unless the opposing player is not very smart, be in a unit to be used as ablative wounds, and also pack an invulnerable save.

 stonehorse wrote:
What makes Warriors so special that they should be immune to being killed by such?

Because they're a squad so they get no ablative wounds, which gets no access to invulnerable saves unlike a lot of other expensive units and characters, and pack a 4+ save, unlike a lot of other expensive units or characters. And do not have a damage table like vehicles to hide behind.

 stonehorse wrote:
Also I mentioned that It Will Not Die would favour our Monstrous Creatures, not Tyranid Warriors.

Well yeah, because it would hardly benefit Warrior at all.

 stonehorse wrote:
For the record I run a predominantly Tyranid Warrior force, so know what it is like to lose them to Krak Missiles, but that is what Krak Missiles do.

It is - but Warriors are needlessly fragile to them for their points cost. Eternal Warrior might be too much, but that's how GW swings their pendulum. The idea of T5, W2 would be better, but seems it didn't happen.

 djm55 wrote:
I for one am loving the new models, new organizations, and especially the rumors of point reductions on a number of my favorite currently unused bugs! However, I am going to to be angry if my scratch built Parasite, Doom, and 3 Spore Pods become unusable. Can't January 11th(?) get here sooner? Enough with this Xmas stuff, on to the new year!!!

I agree, taking units OUT of a codex seems like a terrible idea. It can only upset people who put a lot of time and effort into modeling these units, whether they have official models or not. Nothing is unbalanceable, and if they hate the way they play that badly and really have no balancing creativity left to deal with making new rules for them, just make them 350 pts or something and they are effectively out of the competitive codex. Especially for the fact that they are a model waiting to be built and released at any point in time that is guaranteed to sell well, it just seems crazy to write them off.

That being said, I'm still waiting on confirmation that Doom has been cut - so far it just seems like speculation due to the fact that there is no model release shown yet

 stonehorse wrote:

A Krak Missile can take out most tanks and vehicles in one shot, can kill most meq and eeq characters with one shot. What makes Warriors so special that they should be immune to being killed by such?

...
For the record I run a predominantly Tyranid Warrior force, so know what it is like to lose them to Krak Missiles, but that is what Krak Missiles do.

The lack of targets (i.e. armor) in a Tyranid army makes warriors far more likely to be targeted by these high strength weapons, particularly en masse. It's really not fair to expect that the durability of warriors would not have a boost in some way in the new codex given that, in general, it seems that warriors don't make it to the table. it may not be an omnipresent boost, but one that many nid players may appreciate.

T5, W2, Sv3+. Means they can stand up to Kraks, and don't get eaten alive by Heavy Bolters.

Honestly I'd take Sv3+ over T5...

If Deamons and specially Bloodcrushers, doesn't have EW, and they are still T4 W3 models, i don't see why Nids would have a EW bubble.

Some kind of artifact/super biomorph for ONE character at 40pts, i wouldn't even be mad, but a bubble EW for everyone?, nope.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
If Deamons and specially Bloodcrushers, doesn't have EW, and they are still T4 W3 models, i don't see why Nids would have a EW bubble.

Some kind of artifact/super biomorph for ONE character at 40pts, i wouldn't even be mad, but a bubble EW for everyone?, nope.

So we're just forgetting that Bloodcrushers and other Daemons can get a 3++ (up to 2++ is you get lucky)?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
If Deamons and specially Bloodcrushers, doesn't have EW, and they are still T4 W3 models, i don't see why Nids would have a EW bubble.

You're looking at it backwards.

Bloodcrushers should be T5 with a 3+ save. GW saw fit to hit them with the nerf hammer multiple times between their first and current incarnations, and that was a horrible mistake. Why should 'Nids suffer the same terrible fate just because Daemons got screwed?

The comparison to a Rhino makes no sense. Different unit, different use, and has NO killing power whatsoever. Oh, and can't claim an objective. The unit has to get out.

It also isn't hard to kill a Rhino, because it's going to lose Hull Points in a single shooting phase even if the Krak doesn't blow it up.

Also, have you seen tournament results for the last 6 months? There just aren't many Krak missiles seeing play anymore. Everything is S6 and S7. Eldar, Necrons, and Tau are shooting things down with these weapons. There are so few S8 weapons, that I find it hard to believe that people are going to waste them to kill 1 Warrior when there are 5x 6W monsters coming across the table; some of which are shooting back.

People talk like Warriors are the only unit on the table, and every weapon on the opposing side is a Krak missile. Vacuum comparisons is a sign of argument for argument's sake. Warriors didn't get what YOU wanted, so you're mad.

With the new codex in hand, and a lot of games under our belts, we will be able to determine if they are good. Talking about it now - the way it's being discussed - is embarrassing to watch.

Warriors are naked flesh with some bony plates. They aren't Terminators or Lychguard, decked out in super thick armor. Hence the lower save. They are slender and quick, not stocky and armored (like Hive/Tyrant Guard), and thus the T4. They are very killy, a Synapse node, and a vehicle for Shadow as well. Use them to kill infantry below Terminators, and they will decimate.

If your opponent is a colossal moron who wants to spend their Riptides killing less points than he's worth on some Warriors, laugh and enjoy the victory about the ensue.

A Mod already said drop it brass, so drop it.

 brassangel wrote:
If your opponent is a colossal moron who wants to spend their Riptides killing less points than he's worth on some Warriors, laugh and enjoy the victory about the ensue.

Assuming you give your Warriors the upgrades they want/need, the Riptide is always going to be worth less points unless you have only a 3 man squad of Warriors.

And then when your opponent spends a little bit of effort killing a squad of say 9 warriors, suddenly you are left with only 2/3's of your points, easy as that. As for your example, could likely happen on turn 1 vs tau.

I think the only colossal moron would be the guy with Warriors on his side of the field.

Ugh, why can't we just meet in the middle, give Warriors (and derivatives) toughness 5. Solves all the problems nicely: tough to kill, representative of the fact that the hive mind can keep them functioning even though they have suffered wounds that would be lethal to other organisms, but still instant-deathable to high enough S weapons.

New rumor from Natfka that Boneswords witll be AP 3 and some info on Apex (one per army) biomorphs. Crazy theory here, but if regular Boneswords will now be AP 3 and duel Boneswords are AP 2 and regenerate from wounds inflected on a +5 (per Nafka). Could this mean that a single Boneswords regains wounds inflicted on a roll of a 6?

 brassangel wrote:
I find it hard to believe that people are going to waste them to kill 1 Warrior when there are 5x 6W monsters coming across the table; some of which are shooting back.

And none of which are scoring units.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Ugh, why can't we just meet in the middle, give Warriors (and derivatives) toughness 5. Solves all the problems nicely: tough to kill, representative of the fact that the hive mind can keep them functioning even though they have suffered wounds that would be lethal to other organisms, but still instant-deathable to high enough S weapons.

Middle ground? Compromise? Crazy talk.

But yeah, T5, W2 would be idea. Toughens them up without giving them a better save, means they won't be ID'd unless it's a paritcularly powerful gun, still decently resilient to small arms.

I wouldn't reduce their wounds to 2 unless they upped their save. Just too easy for a Heavy Bolter to rip through the unit with 2 wounds a piece.

T5 W3 Sv4+ means that you dedicate bigger anti-infantry and light-AT weapons (Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and the like) to kill them, which I think is fair.

 brassangel wrote:


It seems like nobody really wanted Warriors to be viable, they just wanted them to kill Terminators really efficiently, for less points, and with no drawbacks. Shows how close-minded most players are.

Nah, it shows how pigeonholed Warriors have become due to the degradation suffered over the lifespan of the current codex.

Right now they have literally no reason to exist other than being able to effectively hunt down 2+ armour save/multiwound models. There are other, better Tyranid units for every other task you could possibly want to complete in a game.

So when people see AP 2 disappear, unaccompanied by any new revelation that gives Warriors another role, they quite reasonably react with disappointment.

You've been repeating the idea that all is not lost until we've seen the codex as a whole, and I completely agree with that, but so far nothing we've learned has made Warriors more worthwhile than they are now, and several things have made them less worthwhile. At the moment, based on the paltry percentage of information we have, Warriors have been nerfed. Obviously that will have to be reassessed as more and more information comes out, until January 11+ gives us the final word, but right now it's not looking good.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 brassangel wrote:
I find it hard to believe that people are going to waste them to kill 1 Warrior when there are 5x 6W monsters coming across the table; some of which are shooting back.

And none of which are scoring units.

Yeah, no matter how awesome or cheap the other stuff in the codex gets, T4 W3 Warriors are always going to be an amazingly ripe target. In every mission they're either a scoring unit, or an easy kill point. Killing them removes Synapse coverage. And even from a quick-and-dirty "earning your points" perspective, there are very few S8+ carrying units that wouldn't do good work by simply taking out a 30+ point Warrior model, especially considering that any lighter weaponry firing from the same unit will have a much more acute effect on Warriors than it would against a Monstrous Creature.

How many of us were actually taking Boneswords on anything other than Tyrants in the first place? An AP3 nerf to them literally means absolutely nothing to those of us that haven't been using Warriors anyway, since Warriors are the only unit it'll really affect with MC's having AP2 smash attacks regardless.

Sure it's a little disappointing to those of us that were intent on taking Warriors in the future, but if the rumours are true about them gaining Eternal Warrior through means of Apex Biomorphs then they may still have their place in an army, they just won't be the AP2 Terminator killers of old. I'm pretty sure that they'll have their uses. I look forward to the codex dropping and seeing how I can utilise them. 'Nids already have plenty of stuff that can deal with Termies anyway, one way or another.

Really liking the idea of Apex Biomorphs by the way, I liked the idea of chapter relics and whatnot so giving the 'Nids an equivalent is very cool indeed.

My Alpha Warrior ALWAYS took BS/LW.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 djm55 wrote:
I for one am loving the new models, new organizations, and especially the rumors of point reductions on a number of my favorite currently unused bugs! However, I am going to to be angry if my scratch built Parasite, Doom, and 3 Spore Pods become unusable. Can't January 11th(?) get here sooner? Enough with this Xmas stuff, on to the new year!!!

I agree, taking units OUT of a codex seems like a terrible idea. It can only upset people who put a lot of time and effort into modeling these units, whether they have official models or not. Nothing is unbalanceable, and if they hate the way they play that badly and really have no balancing creativity left to deal with making new rules for them, just make them 350 pts or something and they are effectively out of the competitive codex. Especially for the fact that they are a model waiting to be built and released at any point in time that is guaranteed to sell well, it just seems crazy to write them off.

That being said, I'm still waiting on confirmation that Doom has been cut - so far it just seems like speculation due to the fact that there is no model release shown yet

I bet if they are removed from the regular codex we will see them all (including Red Terror I hope) back in the supplement codex dealing with specific fleets/ invasions. Such as with Doom maybe the members of the swarm have additional anti psyker rules.

Anyone think that the carnifex in the battle report that was "regenerating like crazy" might have been able to take the Ap2 5+ regen boneswords?

Brutal Viking wrote:
Anyone think that the carnifex in the battle report that was "regenerating like crazy" might have been able to take the Ap2 5+ regen boneswords?

No, it was just Old. One Eye(crushing claws/scything talons).

The rumors about the Crone seem pretty sexy. Tyranids may achieve a level of dominance in the air if they are true.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Brutal Viking wrote:
Anyone think that the carnifex in the battle report that was "regenerating like crazy" might have been able to take the Ap2 5+ regen boneswords?

No, it was just Old. One Eye(crushing claws/scything talons).

ah thank you; don't know his rules so didn't know he regenerated

Anonymous poster on 4chan dropped this-
Tyranid Swarm (95 model boxed set) $170
>40 termagants,40 hormagaunts,10 gargoyles,4 ripper swarms,1 carnifex

Likely? Maybe. Seems odd without a few warriors in there. And that's a LOT of gants/gaunts.

seems like a better deal than buying them through the online deal though still. Plus you get all the other stuff with it to fill out your force more. I'll probably pick up 2 or 3 of them lol

I'll likely get at least one of those.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Anonymous poster on 4chan dropped this-
Tyranid Swarm (95 model boxed set) $170
>40 termagants,40 hormagaunts,10 gargoyles,4 ripper swarms,1 carnifex

Likely? Maybe. Seems odd without a few warriors in there. And that's a LOT of gants/gaunts.

Yeah that would round my core force out quite nicely.

I'm going to buy more figure cases :(

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Anonymous poster on 4chan dropped this-
Tyranid Swarm (95 model boxed set) $170
>40 termagants,40 hormagaunts,10 gargoyles,4 ripper swarms,1 carnifex

Likely? Maybe. Seems odd without a few warriors in there. And that's a LOT of gants/gaunts.

That seems like a low price for 95 models. I'm really hoping it's true, I think it'd be the best deal we've gotten from GW in a while.

We've already seen that description of it a couple times now, so it is pretty reliable.