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rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
Shrouded works on the unit, if "one model has [The Shrouded" rule." So it can work on extended broods, and improve the cover saves your gribbles give your MCs.
streamdragon wrote: I would describe this codex as the most blatant "here are new models, buy them" yet. Not that they're great models or rules or anything, but that GW needed to release a new codex to justify releasing new models.
They certainly didn't overhaul the army or anything, and most changes are lazy tidbits here and there. (With "here and there" being in mostly the wrong places, naturally.)
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rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
As has been posted a few times, only one model in a unit needs to have Shrouded for the entire unit to benefit. Venomthropes are one of the only units that were nothing but upgraded.
Which is basically what happened with the CSM codex. Then again, Kelly did write the Eldar codex too. Is Kelly or Cruddace writing the Tyranid codex this time?
SHUPPET wrote: I don't get all the people saying they are going to try Warriors with this new release because their meta is all S7 no S8.
wtf does the new codex have to do with that? Has it freed your mind and allowed you to build new lists because there isn't a set monobuild yet?
Warriors are still just as bad as ever, if S8 blasts are non existant where you play you shoulda been done flooding Warriors by now :(
Tervigons are better than warriors in pretty much every way right now. In the next codex, it seems warriors close that gap a bit, through nerfs to the tervigon. Tyranids have gained options through everything good getting worse.
How do you reckon Warriors closed the gap? They didn't change. The only changes to the Warriors were nerfs (more expensive, weaker Boneswords), or new CC options (Flesh Hooks, Fleet due to AG).
Basically, warriors look better in comparison because Tervigons look worse than they did.
Yeah, exactly. In bizarro world, I guess that counts as a buff?
rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
One model with shrouded confers it to the entire unit.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
Read the Shrouded rule. If a model in the unit has it, the unit benefits.
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I'm still stoked to run my Tervigon with the new book. They are still solid monsters and they got a new weapon! I'm going to run mine with Dessicator Larvae so they can better protect their babies and objectives.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/09 16:46:16
Warriors could be viable when you had other more pressing threats. Tervigons and the spawned gaunts did do this. But as they can no longer assault when spawned, we are left. With another unit that gets to sit and look stupid until they are blasted off the field
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SHUPPET wrote: And to the guy compiling the list of nerfs / buffs, you should probably add mycetic spores in red, right next to Zoanthrope, Carnifex, and Termagants.
Update #2 completed. I added it to all relevant entires.
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; No more Spores
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Let me know if I missed anything or something is wrong. Again, this doesn't account for changes to some special rules I couldn't understand, or things that would be on unit description pages.
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack fo Spores
I guess you will all fall back to what Tyranids always should have been: target saturation.
The decrease point cost (apart from the obovius GW's policy "Buy moar modelzzz!") force you to take more models.
I guess that this fits nice with the whole Tyranid army concept.
Anpu42 wrote: Warriors can be viable when you crate target priority.
Who are you going to shoot at:
The Warrior Brood
The Carnifex Brood
The 1.8 Billion Gaunts that are now in your face because of the Tervigon(s).
But that might be my local Meta
I'm going to shoot my Lascannons at the Warriors, because while they could target the Carnifex Brood they'd not do as much damage, and they're total overkill against Gaunts.
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It seems almost as if GW was more about applying nerfs. Then when it came to applying some improvements, scratched their heads at a loss and settled for a few minor point decreases and characteristic fiddling (that nonetheless does little to change the overall usefulness of the unit).
Is there anyone actually passionate about the Tyranids on the design team or are they "phoning it in"?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/09 16:57:22
I remember. Five bases of ripper assault a paladin. Do nothing. The paladin does one wound.
A little while away, two more of my paladins kill the warriors the rippers are being synapsed by.
Me and my friend forget to do the ripper stuff, and keep playing. After four turns the paladin has taken a wound and the rippers are still five bases. We remember synapse. ALL of the rippers die. We imagine the paladin one second stabbing rippers and then them all suddenly falling over and the paladin scratching his head.
BTW: that same paladin later killed a tyranofex, hive tyrant, and took three wounds off a carnifex before my other two arrived and finished it off.
*sigh*. Tomorrow I might be having my last game of fifth edition. It'll be the parasite's last battle. There will be tears, mainly from the cultists getting eaten.
*sigh*
the shrouded lord wrote: I remember. Five bases of ripper assault a paladin. Do nothing. The paladin does one wound.
A little while away, two more of my paladins kill the warriors the rippers are being synapsed by.
Me and my friend forget to do the ripper stuff, and keep playing. After four turns the paladin has taken a wound and the rippers are still five bases. We remember synapse. ALL of the rippers die. We imagine the paladin one second stabbing rippers and then them all suddenly falling over and the paladin scratching his head.
BTW: that same paladin later killed a tyranofex, hive tyrant, and took three wounds off a carnifex before my other two arrived and finished it off.
*sigh*. Tomorrow I might be having my last game of fifth edition. It'll be the parasite's last battle. There will be tears, mainly from the cultists getting eaten.
*sigh*
They don't test for IB because they are in CC and therefore don't arbitrarily explode.
Anpu42 wrote: Warriors can be viable when you crate target priority. Who are you going to shoot at: The Warrior Brood The Carnifex Brood The 1.8 Billion Gaunts that are now in your face because of the Tervigon(s).
But that might be my local Meta
You are going to shoot the S8 at the warriors because its gauranteed to wipe the most points off the field, the fact that they are scoring is just a bonus. That is assuming single shot weapons, when it comes to blasts its not even a choice. There is no point to taking this unit if you know you will encounter S8, Its meant to be a bulky scorer ala marines or even deathwing, as far as 9 man squad goes if you want anti-infantry damage you get 60 gants 20 with devourers for the same price, that is putting out 100 S4 shots its not even a comparison to what Warriors can do. But there is no point to paying all those points to be tankier than a termagant squad if it turns out your opponent is actually getting 3 models for the price of 1, and you have 51 less models on the field. Sure, thats not entirely accurate as nobody is firing Heavy Weapons at a Gant squad, but thats because they don't open up the opportunity for it to be worthwhile. Target saturation works in theory, and yeah your Fexes or whatever might avoid a few shots which might let them rampage a bit harder, but when your opponent finishes his second turn and you are suddenly left with no scoring units, your MC's are still trundling forward, and your army is 500 points smaller because you took 2x 7 man squads of Warriors as your troop choices, the target priority seems stupidly clear and you'll be back in this thread just as annoyed if not more so than the rest of us, that our useless troop choice, who would be so easy to balance, has been given 5 minutes of attention with this new dex, simply to add extra costs to some of its upgrades, as if it was overpowered in the last edition or something. You would be better off just spending that 500 points on 4 more carnifexes, they will soak up far more heavy weapon shots than a warrior squad. The pricing is ridiculous for it to have such a weakness to instadeath.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/09 17:28:34
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Anpu42 wrote: Warriors can be viable when you crate target priority.
Who are you going to shoot at:
The Warrior Brood
The Carnifex Brood
The 1.8 Billion Gaunts that are now in your face because of the Tervigon(s).
But that might be my local Meta
You are going to shoot the S8 at the warriors because its gauranteed to wipe the most points off the field, the fact that they are scoring is just a bonus. That is assuming single shot weapons, when it comes to blasts its not even a choice. There is no point to taking this unit if you know you will encounter S8, Its meant to be a bulky scorer ala marines or even deathwing, as far as 9 man squad goes if you want anti-infantry damage you get 60 gants 20 with devourers for the same price, that is putting out 100 S4 shots its not even a comparison to what Warriors can do. But there is no point to paying all those points to be tankier than a termagant squad if it turns out your opponent is actually getting 3 models for the price of 1, and you have 51 less models on the field. Sure, thats not entirely accurate as nobody is firing Heavy Weapons at a Gant squad, but thats because they don't open up the opportunity for it to be worthwhile. Target saturation works in theory, and yeah your Fexes or whatever might avoid a few shots which might let them rampage a bit harder, but when your opponent finishes his second turn and you are suddenly left with no scoring units, your MC's are still trundling forward, and your army is 500 points smaller because you took 2x 7 man squads of Warriors as your troop choices, the target priority seems stupidly clear and you'll be back in this thread just as annoyed if not more so than the rest of us, that our useless troop choice, who would be so easy to balance, has been given 5 minutes of attention with this new dex, simply to add extra costs to some of its upgrades, as if it was overpowered in the last edition or something. You would be better off just spending that 500 points on 4 more carnifexes, they will soak up far more heavy weapon shots than a warrior squad. The pricing is ridiculous for it to have such a weakness to instadeath.
Like I did say it might be the local Meta to, I run alot of Plasma with the occasoinal Missile Launcher and Las Cannon. Even with my Long Fangs I don't have Missle Launcher SPAM. Most of my shots were usaly wasted on that mother ing DoM. The Nit player could not fail his Inv Save to save my life.
Thing may change now, we will have to see.
I'm trying to justify weather getting the swarm box is necessary or not. I have around 55 termagants 20-30 hormagaunts, maybe 25 geanstealers and three carnifexes. so far I've never needed the hormies minus needing a termie proxy or two, and only have the 3 fexes because I found a deal and gambled for this edition.
basically my question is weather the hormagaunts and genestealers are going to be useful enough that they'll actually be used to the point of me needing more than I have now
I can't (well I can) believe that anyone is saying they're going to use tervigons.
They went UP in points, lost biomancy, lost additional powers, can't pick said powers, lost the ability to give gaunts poisoned/furious charge, apparently the gaunts cant move when they come into play..
There is absolutely no buff at all, how can one be excited to use them?
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Disturb3d wrote: I'm looking forward to attatching OOE to a unit of dakkafexes with regen. The Carnistar.... Yeah.
OOE isn't an IC and so can't join the Carnis.
My bad I saw personaje and unico on the spanish sheets and just started thinking. Does that mean the prime can't either then? He's listed the same way. Except he isn't unique. Just being hopeful lol.
Tervigons got the nerf-hammer, no doubt. But psychologically, I was at least prepared for it as I (any many others) fully expected their effectiveness to be reduced. This makes the nerf at least palatable, whereas other changes to the Codex sting much more because they weren't expected.
Kirasu wrote: I can't (well I can) believe that anyone is saying they're going to use tervigons.
They went UP in points, lost biomancy, lost additional powers, can't pick said powers, lost the ability to give gaunts poisoned/furious charge, apparently the gaunts cant move when they come into play..
There is absolutely no buff at all, how can one be excited to use them?
'
You don't have to be excited about the changes to use them in a list, at the end of the day they are a scoring MC for 200 points that spawns free additional scoring units each turn. In case you haven't noticed there's not much to be excited about in the troop slot in general. Just because something got nerfed doesn't mean its automatically bad, they are still the second best option in the slot next to Termagants.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
I must be an odd man out. I'm liking what I'm reading quite a bit. It's going to be a balance between bringing actually resilient and cover save dependent resilient but I think it's doable now.
Also Warriors have been solid for most of 6th as people transitioned away from missile launchers for rate of fire. Once that happened you could look at them as each one being 3x10pt models with St5/T4/4+ saves which is reasonable. The only kink is Tau Riptides as that's the only St8 Large Blast weapon seen regularly nowadays.
Honestly it's going to be the heavy support slot that hurts me. There is so much there. Elites are likely to simply be Venomthropes at this point with some people (like me) considering Lictors based on infiltrate and 50pt cost. My HQ is pretty locked in at Primes (which might explain the price hike) to ensure I can:
a) keep venomthropes alive
b) keep warriors alive
c) hide my synapse based on it's importance
My troops are likely to just consist of gant hordes of one type or another with maybe a warrior unit. I wasn't a huge fan of Tervigons before and the new rules seal that deal for me.
My fast attack are likely to consist solely of Gargoyles and Shrikes (and this is just a maybe on these).
The overall idea will be to put down approximately 24 T6 MC wounds supported by 100+ T3 infantry led by 2 Primes and including at least one unit (likely 2) of venomthropes.
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I'm loving the whole thing about spawned units being unable to move the turn they pop, most ridiculous thing yet, what if you manage to spawn a bunch and effectively stop your tervigon from moving cause there's so many?
But hey, i guess it is extremely easy to explain fluff wise "when a newly spawned gant is spawned directly onto the field of battle, it is more like a little kitten due to all the flashing noises and bright colors surrounding it therefore confusing it, it has even been known for a trooper to walk over and stroke one, due to them being so docile and gentle
Nearly as ridiculous as a grounded harpy or crone, just imagine one, flapping about on the floor like a turtle stuck on it's back. A downed flyrant walking on it's scything talons that look like high heels I could tolerate cause it's hilarious in my eyes (seems like the norn queen is keeping up with fashion and likes to get her daughters all the best shoes) but a downed flapping crone is just a bit to much
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Disturb3d wrote: I'm looking forward to attatching OOE to a unit of dakkafexes with regen. The Carnistar.... Yeah.
OOE isn't an IC and so can't join the Carnis.
My bad I saw personaje and unico on the spanish sheets and just started thinking. Does that mean the prime can't either then? He's listed the same way. Except he isn't unique. Just being hopeful lol.
Prime has IC added as a special rule further down the page.
rollawaythestone wrote: Tervigons got the nerf-hammer, no doubt. But psychologically, I was at least prepared for it as I (any many others) fully expected their effectiveness to be reduced. This makes the nerf at least palatable, whereas other changes to the Codex sting much more because they weren't expected.
Most were expecting a point increase, or some loss in playability, or a change in function like Broadsides...not a 20% point increase in addition to a loss of Biomancy, loss of 67% of its psychic power rolls, loss of 67% of the Brood Proginator Buffs, 100% increase in backlash range, and prohibition of newly spawned guants charging.
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