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madmanrambler wrote:
I think its obvious whats going on in here right now. All our synapse got taken out, so now all our feeders are raging and trying to bite anyone that walks to close, the lurkers are looking on or running away, and our hunters are hiding and taking the occasional pot shot to lighten the mood.

Madmanrambler

Special Rules: Instinctive Behavior - Hunt

Apocalypse introduced the 10" template.
Codex Tyranids basically introduced the 12" template, but only against Tyranid players, if you hit their Tervigon: Watch the Termagants explode and the MCs hit themselves

BTW why are a special Carnifex and Lictor HQs now, they are not even Synapse! Watching the general cower down or hit himself because he lacks any guidance is quite depressing

 Red Corsair wrote:
I think maybe I play with more terrain that BLOS then most. Hiding a prime doesn't seem that difficult to me synapse only matter until the horms make assault which is turn 2 if you do it right.

That certainly helps matters. BLOS terrain is something that TO tend to not have enough of.

 ductvader wrote:
What's with this whole...oh yeah kill synapse and the army folds mentality?

Synapse creatures are by nature hard to kill...and you have to do it all on turn one...venomthropes and all...highly unlikely.

End of turn 1 a unit of hormagaunts can be 27" up the board leaving only the back 6-7" of the board safe on turn 2.

Well, lets assume every game is DoW and not Hammer/Anvil or Vanguard and you would be correct, but have you seen how any shooty army deploys against us? They will castle up in the back and shoot. And if you use such speed, you will probably run out of Synapse range, because I am going to kill any Syn in range of you. So turn 3 you make combat, and I will have blown away alot of your army.

:edit. Not to mention that you will have to cover the entire length of the board. If you deploy first, they can pick a far corner greatly increasing your required movement.

I think a Bastion is now necessary for us. Really, it is. I don't need to but it a quad gun, but if I can slap a Venomthope inside, then excellent. That is what I need. Give it some durability from shooting, put it in a forward position to support the advance, and everything is lovely. Really, if our "no shooting guns" (grumble) turns into "no buying fortifications" I will flip my lid. Whether or not this codex turns out competitive, it is a middle finger to us next to the other armies. We just lack all the lovely options every other army gets. maybe we can do fine without them, but dangit I like options.

 jifel wrote:
I think a Bastion is now necessary for us. Really, it is. I don't need to but it a quad gun, but if I can slap a Venomthope inside, then excellent. That is what I need. Give it some durability from shooting, put it in a forward position to support the advance, and everything is lovely. Really, if our "no shooting guns" (grumble) turns into "no buying fortifications" I will flip my lid. Whether or not this codex turns out competitive, it is a middle finger to us next to the other armies. We just lack all the lovely options every other army gets. maybe we can do fine without them, but dangit I like options.

That sounds quite useful actually. Would you measure the Shrouded bubble from the edges of the Bastion? Regardless the LoS blocking and potential Comms Relay would make it a good investment.

I've been reading this thread for days and I HATE the people who will swallow the koolaid of "It's just beer n pretzels guys, lulz. Go find something else!"

You do realize that this notion will murder 40k?

A balanced game is good for everyone. It promotes sales, makes new and old models worth it, and makes everyone happy. In a balanced game, a competitive list and fluffy list are one in the same! How is that a bad thing? It's not!

Anecdote: A good handful of the casual GW players in my area are either going full hobby or shifting to other games that ARE beer and pretzels like Malifaux, Infinity, and Flames of War. They have balanced rulesets, depend on gentlemen understandings, don't promote rules disputes and are cheaper.

It's only the grizzled vets and the competitive die-hards that are weathering the storm. So take that "non-competitive" stuff and jog on. You're just poisoning 40k more by accepting lazy writing.

There is no damn good reason why genestealers and warriors are still hot street trash. I am someone who really wants to build and play Midzilla... and by play, I mean more than set my models down, get Tau gunlined off the table, and then shed a tear in my beer about how much money I wasted.

Edit: Aside this, what's the wording on the new Shadows of the Warp? Is it straight Ld reduction for psykers? Is it just on casting powers? Does it affect force weapons?

SiTW just says lowers leadership, so all tests. Stack it with Deathleaper's ability and a psyker can be at -6 LD.

It's a -3 to leadership tests to all enemy psykers within range, iirc.

As to whether it's a -3 to their leadershi[ carte blanche or only in regards to psychic tests, I can't say.

Fragile wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
What's with this whole...oh yeah kill synapse and the army folds mentality?

Synapse creatures are by nature hard to kill...and you have to do it all on turn one...venomthropes and all...highly unlikely.

End of turn 1 a unit of hormagaunts can be 27" up the board leaving only the back 6-7" of the board safe on turn 2.

Well, lets assume every game is DoW and not Hammer/Anvil or Vanguard and you would be correct, but have you seen how any shooty army deploys against us? They will castle up in the back and shoot. And if you use such speed, you will probably run out of Synapse range, because I am going to kill any Syn in range of you. So turn 3 you make combat, and I will have blown away alot of your army.

Not unless you bring a whole bunch of synapse boosters... Too bad we don't have many of tho-
*sees norn crown, dominion psychic power, warlord trait, sees 30" synapse range, along with unconfirmed swarmlord synapse range of 18" minimum* oh wait.
Yeah, people are going 'lets just kill synapse!' like its something that happens all the time. You can do the same thing right now, and you probably screw over the army right off the bat if you do. Problem is its still really bloody difficult, with flying hive tyrants, trygon primes, OOE providing pseudo synapse, tervigons which are still T6 W6 Sv 3+, zoans with 3++...

I'm not going to say things are looking good, but I will say a few things I've seen mentioned that deserve response.

To those that claim the psychic powers suck: ahahahahahaAHAHAHAHAHA, HA HA HA HA!
*giggles a bit more*
okay, I'm done.
But yeah, I disagree, whole heartedly. Psychic powers hardly suck. the worst one in terms of pure profit is dominion and onslaught, but I can easily see those still coming into play. for those that doubt that, imagine a tyrannofex moving forward 9 to 12 inches and spraying his 20" flamer template that kills fire warriors like a bug zapper zaps bugs, and understand that can happen with anything that has a somewhat short range gun and needs to get in close.
Dominion, as I said, is great for ensuring those horror stories of all our synapse getting taken down is certainly mitigated.
the horror is pure fething cheese, and it'll make anyone who isn't fearless or stubborn piss their pants, including ATSKNF bastard marines. Whats that, take a leadership penalty minus 2, take a pinning test, and if you fail it you're snap shotting and I get assault grenades on that unit when I charge it? Holy crap, where do I sign?! LD 10 takes the test on 8, meaning its just above 50% pass rate. Take 6 broodlords, and watch as your enemies army is too busy ducking in fear to actually shoot you.
Catalyst, we've talked about. Its awesome, a super fluffy tyranid power, will be a shame to roll up on a tyrant with adaptive biology (take feel no pain after your first wound) but hey, it happens.
Psychic scream? thats the doom, right there, with one d6 removed and some balance put in. Now, you'll probably only take a few enemies per unit with you. And you won't be doing it on your enemies turn. but hey, a flyrant ducking into a big cluster of tau hoping to hide together for supporting fire? hey buddies, hope you like my screaming metal, starting a band called carnifex up, buy our CD!
warp blast gives your hive tyrants zoanthrope powers. while flying. Heldrake? hey, buddy? I think we need to do some wing clippings. I really like you, love your model, wish you were in my army, but yeah, get the f*#@ out of my airspace.
And for those worrying about rolling warp blast on your tervigons: reread your rulebook. Tervigon's mastery level 1. warp blast is mastery level 2. pg 418 BRB, any psychic powers you roll with a warp charge higher then your mastery level, you get to reroll. Something I didn't realize until I read it today.

I'll admit, in some areas, we took hits. But not all of them. not by a long shot. We're still angry, we're still the gribblies, and I think, if this codex is used right, we're still going to rock.

Okay...

Now I've been bordering the edge of optimism and indifference to this whole matter, and taking in comments and info as it's come along and tried to keep that stiff upper lip and hopes that finally, after a very long time, I'd have a codex for the army that I've been collecting since 2nd edition and be able to field some of those iconic units that have always looked great and had a tremendously awesome background alongside new units that fill in niches that we did not have before, or may fulfill some specific role that would be fun to play with but not see every game.

Mostly though, I wanted to have a codex that allowed me to have a series of viable units so I could play an army that was not overpowered, simply competitive.

For those of you who do not understand, I don't want to have a 99% win ratio, where the last 1% is simply because I rolled 1s all game. I want to have a ratio where I can place down an army, look across the table, and not immediately start to keep my trays open to start placing models back in. Give me an assault army from hell, give me a shooting army that has unique rules that are alien and strange (cause we fire living ammunition for crying out loud...) that may not be able to punch through marine armor, but has a weight of fire that makes them keep their heads down. Give me MCs that actually act like they're supposed to, not something that can reliably be shot to death by small arms fire while other armies light transports can effectively ignore 90% of mine.

Just give me something I can keep pace with, not something where I have the odds so hopelessly stacked against me that I am required to hope for a miracle.

This is not WAAC, this is simply hoping that a codex should be equal, in some fashion, to its peers. A narrative can tell one story, but in the end forging a narrative does not mean that I wanted to play the extras who are gunned down by the heroes each and every time. It's a wargame, and I should hope to have an equal chance to win. Casual gaming is not incompatible with competitive rules, nor should it be. I have played casual games of Warmachine with Competitive tournament players and did not lament the horrifying way they belittled me and made me cry... because they did not act in that fashion. I have sat in a tournament setting and joked and laughed with my opponent in each turn. Competitive gaming is not some horrifying monstrosity that kills fun; bad players kill fun, and you can find them in casual circuits and competitive ones. Calling a game "beer and pretzels" does not make it immune to jerks, nor should that be the mentality or excuse for not balancing out rules and options for an army that is as iconic as Space Marines in the setting.

Some changes that I have seen are flat out flabbergasting, such as to Hive Guard and the range on the Exocrine. The lengths that people have had to forge ways of utilizing these units just for them to do their specified role (according to what we know) show that there is an inherent problem because that implies they cannot fulfill their role without a specific set of criteria. Imagine if Devastators could only work if there were 2 squads of tactical marines exactly within 6" of them, or if Riptides required 14 (not 13, not 15) models to be within a specific minimum and maximum distance before it could utilize its options.

Yes, these are exaggerations, but at the same time that seems to be the approach to Tyranids for the better part of a decade now. Worse is when people tell the players of the army to simply accept it as fact, or that we're not playing to our strengths. It's hard to play to your strengths when those very things are hard-countered by rules and armies that are, for the most part, not exactly uncommon nowadays.

 Eldarain wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I think a Bastion is now necessary for us. Really, it is. I don't need to but it a quad gun, but if I can slap a Venomthope inside, then excellent. That is what I need. Give it some durability from shooting, put it in a forward position to support the advance, and everything is lovely. Really, if our "no shooting guns" (grumble) turns into "no buying fortifications" I will flip my lid. Whether or not this codex turns out competitive, it is a middle finger to us next to the other armies. We just lack all the lovely options every other army gets. maybe we can do fine without them, but dangit I like options.

That sounds quite useful actually. Would you measure the Shrouded bubble from the edges of the Bastion? Regardless the LoS blocking and potential Comms Relay would make it a good investment.

Yes, the bubble extends, if you can buy it*. Put that sucker right in the front of your table half, with Comms relay, one void shield, and an escape hatch** (SA upgrade. It's awesome). Turn 1, you have a lone venomthrope hiding out of LoS somewhere far away. If opponent has turn 1, he's hiding and can buff your guys. Great, but you must advance. Using the escape hatch, you can move his bubble up by 18" plus the size of the bastion. Then just move the army forward into his bubble. Also, put biovores up top. They'll get a 2++ cover from Shrouded+Bastion and have LoS to battlefield while being protected, maybe man a comm relay.

*Any word on this? Surprised it hasn't been mentioned, but it would have to be in the codex not in another FAQ.
**Escape hatch is a marker placed 12" away from a bunker, that is an embarkation point. Good for jumping guys into a forward bastion without turn 1 positioning them in a vulnerable spot, or for bailing if the situation is dire.

Bonus points to Marrak.

And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

 TheKbob wrote:
And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

Infiltrate, hiding in cover, venomthropes deployed so that they're just barely touching your genestealer unit and giving them shrouded, soak the board in targets that are more important then a measly 5 genestealers and a broodlord. You start 18" away, just one move away from hitting them with the horror. This is assuming, worst case scenario, you deployed first and had the initiative stolen from you. Or hell, deploy the genestealers on your side of the board, behind hormagaunts. The horror has 24" range. You don't need to start in range of those marines to lock them down.

I'm not suggesting this is easy. or that you can make one throw away unit and have it become god like. But we can do way more with what we've been told then what we're letting on. We're all doom and gloom before we've even put our units on the board.

If competitive players are so butt hurt about the new rules (for any codex) and how all their models are garbage now, then perhaps you should realize that is JUST A GAME! A game that is always changing! GW has been rotating rules and models for quite some time now and it won't stop because you don't like what they did with your codex(this coming from a csm player who doesn't cry!). You knew things could get worse, and crying like a bunch of two year olds does nothing but make the 40k community look bad.

Also, for those who look down on casual gamers, perhaps YOU are the ones that should move on to different game/hobby. If winning, obtaining prizes, and being super competitive is THAT important to you then perhaps you should play Magic. The game offers much more for people like you.

 l0k1 wrote:
If competitive players are so butt hurt about the new rules (for any codex) and how all their models are garbage now, then perhaps you should realize that is JUST A GAME! A game that is always changing! GW has been rotating rules and models for quite some time now and it won't stop because you don't like what they did with your codex(this coming from a csm player who doesn't cry!). You knew things could get worse, and crying like a bunch of two year olds does nothing but make the 40k community look bad.

Also, for those who look down on casual gamers, perhaps YOU are the ones that should move on to different game/hobby. If winning, obtaining prizes, and being super competitive is THAT important to you then perhaps you should play Magic. The game offers much more for people like you.

*Infers dissatisfaction with whining and crying*

Also please find me one poster "looking down on casual gamers".

I've never met another gaming community that blames the customer for not liking the product. It blows my mind.

Marrak wrote:Okay...

As a Sisters player... more power to you!

madmanrambler wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

Infiltrate, hiding in cover, venomthropes deployed so that they're just barely touching your genestealer unit and giving them shrouded, soak the board in targets that are more important then a measly 5 genestealers and a broodlord. You start 18" away, just one move away from hitting them with the horror. This is assuming, worst case scenario, you deployed first and had the initiative stolen from you. Or hell, deploy the genestealers on your side of the board, behind hormagaunts. The horror has 24" range. You don't need to start in range of those marines to lock them down.

I'm not suggesting this is easy. or that you can make one throw away unit and have it become god like. But we can do way more with what we've been told then what we're letting on. We're all doom and gloom before we've even put our units on the board.

Cool, I use my allied Inquisitor for 34 points to place servo skulls so you can't infiltrate crap. They can ally with every army save Nids and Chaos. Then I fire one of "ignore cover saves" things at the venomthrope and murder it softly, like I did in fifth... without ignores cover saves...

It's one spell. It's kinda neat. But on a garbage unit. On a dude that costs a lot of points.

PS: It's just a game. Cool, I'll play at 2000 pts, you play at 500 and it's just a game? Neat right? Who cares! If it's just a game why do people get mad when I bring a GT level list against a fluffy list. It's just a game, right? I mean, you're a fluff player, you don't care about winning. Here's the narrative... your force met a stronger force and was annihilated to the man in short order standing no chance to a superior foe. Fun, let's do it next week?

madmanrambler wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

Infiltrate, hiding in cover, venomthropes deployed so that they're just barely touching your genestealer unit and giving them shrouded, soak the board in targets that are more important then a measly 5 genestealers and a broodlord. You start 18" away, just one move away from hitting them with the horror. This is assuming, worst case scenario, you deployed first and had the initiative stolen from you. Or hell, deploy the genestealers on your side of the board, behind hormagaunts. The horror has 24" range. You don't need to start in range of those marines to lock them down.

I'm not suggesting this is easy. or that you can make one throw away unit and have it become god like. But we can do way more with what we've been told then what we're letting on. We're all doom and gloom before we've even put our units on the board.

Not bad, but I can do better.

Put a bastion, exit facing forward, on the edge of your table half. Infiltrate inside. Turn 1 (or 2 if you have first turn) jump out 6" and you're now 6" past the halfway point before your opponent has a shot on you. Oh, but there's Firing slits so your broodlord can cast a power first. Did I mention that you can assault after disembarking from a Bastion? Put 20 in there. I don't care what the internet says, I don't care what logic says. Get 20 genestealers that close to your opponent that fast untouched and they will crap themselves. Heck, slap a Venomthrope inside the bastion afterwards and leave a trail of Stealers so they get shrouded if they fail the charge. Really, just f*** with your opponents head. This codex isn't an auto win, but both Tau and Eldar have a MAJOR lack of ranged anti Bastion.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a -3 to leadership tests to all enemy psykers within range, iirc.

As to whether it's a -3 to their leadershi[ carte blanche or only in regards to psychic tests, I can't say.

"All enemy units and models with the psyker, psychic pilot or brotherhood of psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their leadership whilst they are within 12" of one or more the models with the shadow in the warp special rule - a direct quote.

You still can't cast maledictions out of firing ports, or launch an assault on the top of Turn 1 if you infiltrate.

That means you can't Horror from inside the Bastion, and if you want to Infiltrate into it for a first turn assault, you have to go second, which means someone gets to roll up and assault the bastion with frag grenades, killing all your genestealers. Or you go first, pop out and are left standing their with your cheese in the wind, waiting to take a round of bolter fire to the face.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
You still can't cast maledictions out of firing ports, or launch an assault on the top of Turn 1 if you infiltrate.

That means you can't Horror from inside the Bastion, and if you want to Infiltrate into it for a first turn assault, you have to go second, which means someone gets to roll up and assault the bastion with frag grenades, killing all your genestealers. Or you go first, pop out and are left standing their with your cheese in the wind, waiting to take a round of bolter fire to the face.

Or you ally in a cheap Inquisitor, place a servo skull right next to the Bastion and you're left hosed, too.

Most of my lists will probably see one of these if I'm not equipped for assault. If I am, then sure, come right at me. I'll gladly blend some genestealers.

 Roci wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a -3 to leadership tests to all enemy psykers within range, iirc.

As to whether it's a -3 to their leadershi[ carte blanche or only in regards to psychic tests, I can't say.

"All enemy units and models with the psyker, psychic pilot or brotherhood of psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their leadership whilst they are within 12" of one or more the models with the shadow in the warp special rule - a direct quote.

Thanks.

Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

See its all this "Well I will just take an ally..." that stings a bit too. Thought we would get something in exchange for no allies.

 Roci wrote:

"All enemy units and models with the psyker, psychic pilot or brotherhood of psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their leadership whilst they are within 12" of one or more the models with the shadow in the warp special rule - a direct quote.

Those poor Grey Knights. I suppose they know fear now.

 Gloomfang wrote:
See its all this "Well I will just take an ally..." that stings a bit too. Thought we would get something in exchange for no allies.

Sure we did. We got [censored] instead.

Take that for what you will.

 TheKbob wrote:

Marrak wrote:Okay...

As a Sisters player... more power to you!

madmanrambler wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

Infiltrate, hiding in cover, venomthropes deployed so that they're just barely touching your genestealer unit and giving them shrouded, soak the board in targets that are more important then a measly 5 genestealers and a broodlord. You start 18" away, just one move away from hitting them with the horror. This is assuming, worst case scenario, you deployed first and had the initiative stolen from you. Or hell, deploy the genestealers on your side of the board, behind hormagaunts. The horror has 24" range. You don't need to start in range of those marines to lock them down.

I'm not suggesting this is easy. or that you can make one throw away unit and have it become god like. But we can do way more with what we've been told then what we're letting on. We're all doom and gloom before we've even put our units on the board.

Cool, I use my allied Inquisitor for 34 points to place servo skulls so you can't infiltrate crap. They can ally with every army save Nids and Chaos. Then I fire one of "ignore cover saves" things at the venomthrope and murder it softly, like I did in fifth... without ignores cover saves...

It's one spell. It's kinda neat. But on a garbage unit. On a dude that costs a lot of points.

PS: It's just a game. Cool, I'll play at 2000 pts, you play at 500 and it's just a game? Neat right? Who cares! If it's just a game why do people get mad when I bring a GT level list against a fluffy list. It's just a game, right? I mean, you're a fluff player, you don't care about winning. Here's the narrative... your force met a stronger force and was annihilated to the man in short order standing no chance to a superior foe. Fun, let's do it next week?

Hey, didn't mean to hit a nerve there. I realize its frustrating with all the discussion about narratives and beer N pretzels, but you and I don't have to bring that discussion into the debate. Lets keep it purely rules focused, eh? Besides, you're helping me figure out how to refine the horror and get it to work better.

Alright, so servo skulls are stopping the infiltrate. For the sake of discussion, lets keep the sure bet of genestealers and a broodlord for the sakes of discussing the horror. So, I've still got a 24" bubble that could seriously mess a shooting units day up. I'll admit, its not the best deal for 130 points, but it's going to be our only real source of assault grenades. 7 T4 wounds to chew through, with 2 of them being on a 4+ armor save. How much firepower would have to be devoted to kill that? Probably 2 tac squads, if we're assuming space marines...
Can you list off the ignore covers stuff? I'm aware of the divination psychic power, thunderfire cannons with barrage, and LRRs along with all flamers, but thats all I really know for SM and most imperium. I guess legion of the damned?

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

What's the two top tier flyers?

You don't mean the two that can be almost instant killed by a single quad gun, right? If you fail a grounding test, you can murder one in a turn. Give Stronghold assault and the ability to have multiple Bastions/Aegis Lines and getting allies with Fast Shot, High BS, etc., you could readily have a list that drops them as soon as they come on. This is without air support.

I'd hate to see what a squad of intercepting broadsides does to one...

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

Aren't we avoiding vacuums?

A DC dread can drop pod or piggy back on a stormraven. Guess how many ways a haruspex can get across the board?

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex? Or an army brings cheap disposable bubble wrap. So the tau shoot you, overwatch you with everything, you eat 60pts in kroot, and stand in the open to be shot twice more.

The exocrine is good, yes. I would take 2 if anything else in the codex actually made me excited to play nids again.

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Funny I personaly think that this new nid codex is bland and boring, that nids went from outworldly intelligent threat that can fight Space Marines on even terms (at least in feel, not necessarily in results) and apply some advanced tactics to horde capable mainly of throwing bodies at the opponent. You could do the latter before, now it seems you have to.

Oh and your great casual play is great, how about you get a few more guys into your circle? Don't forget to write down the requirements though - max 1 riptide/wave serpent/vendetta/doom sythe, max number of the same units 2, allies only allowed after voting of the great casual council. What a crap. And what a crap game that produces such attitudes.