SHUPPET wrote:
So Broodlord can swap his power out right like the Tyrant?

If so what happens if he goes for the primaris Dominion and casts it?

I'm only asking because he's the only non-synapse psyker in the book. Explicit text is "The Psyker has +6" Synapse range". Does this turn him into a Synapse creature with 6" Synapse range every turn?

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think you should take into account the bonus smash attack when smashing with Trygons and Tervigons, probably making it a sidegrade.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
So Broodlord can swap his power out right like the Tyrant?

If so what happens if he goes for the primaris Dominion and casts it?

I'm only asking because he's the only non-synapse psyker in the book. Explicit text is "The Psyker has +6" Synapse range". Does this turn him into a Synapse creature with 6" Synapse range every turn?

Broodlords do not roll. They get the Horror and that is it.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think you should take into account the bonus smash attack when smashing with Trygons and Tervigons, probably making it a sidegrade.

 Marrak wrote:
Okay...

Now I've been bordering the edge of optimism and indifference to this whole matter, and taking in comments and info as it's come along and tried to keep that stiff upper lip and hopes that finally, after a very long time, I'd have a codex for the army that I've been collecting since 2nd edition and be able to field some of those iconic units that have always looked great and had a tremendously awesome background alongside new units that fill in niches that we did not have before, or may fulfill some specific role that would be fun to play with but not see every game.

Mostly though, I wanted to have a codex that allowed me to have a series of viable units so I could play an army that was not overpowered, simply competitive.

For those of you who do not understand, I don't want to have a 99% win ratio, where the last 1% is simply because I rolled 1s all game. I want to have a ratio where I can place down an army, look across the table, and not immediately start to keep my trays open to start placing models back in. Give me an assault army from hell, give me a shooting army that has unique rules that are alien and strange (cause we fire living ammunition for crying out loud...) that may not be able to punch through marine armor, but has a weight of fire that makes them keep their heads down. Give me MCs that actually act like they're supposed to, not something that can reliably be shot to death by small arms fire while other armies light transports can effectively ignore 90% of mine.

Just give me something I can keep pace with, not something where I have the odds so hopelessly stacked against me that I am required to hope for a miracle.

This is not WAAC, this is simply hoping that a codex should be equal, in some fashion, to its peers. A narrative can tell one story, but in the end forging a narrative does not mean that I wanted to play the extras who are gunned down by the heroes each and every time. It's a wargame, and I should hope to have an equal chance to win. Casual gaming is not incompatible with competitive rules, nor should it be. I have played casual games of Warmachine with Competitive tournament players and did not lament the horrifying way they belittled me and made me cry... because they did not act in that fashion. I have sat in a tournament setting and joked and laughed with my opponent in each turn. Competitive gaming is not some horrifying monstrosity that kills fun; bad players kill fun, and you can find them in casual circuits and competitive ones. Calling a game "beer and pretzels" does not make it immune to jerks, nor should that be the mentality or excuse for not balancing out rules and options for an army that is as iconic as Space Marines in the setting.

Some changes that I have seen are flat out flabbergasting, such as to Hive Guard and the range on the Exocrine. The lengths that people have had to forge ways of utilizing these units just for them to do their specified role (according to what we know) show that there is an inherent problem because that implies they cannot fulfill their role without a specific set of criteria. Imagine if Devastators could only work if there were 2 squads of tactical marines exactly within 6" of them, or if Riptides required 14 (not 13, not 15) models to be within a specific minimum and maximum distance before it could utilize its options.

Yes, these are exaggerations, but at the same time that seems to be the approach to Tyranids for the better part of a decade now. Worse is when people tell the players of the army to simply accept it as fact, or that we're not playing to our strengths. It's hard to play to your strengths when those very things are hard-countered by rules and armies that are, for the most part, not exactly uncommon nowadays.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think you should take into account the bonus smash attack when smashing with Trygons and Tervigons, probably making it a sidegrade.

Tervigons do not get an extra attack as they do not have 2 CC weapons. Crushing claws also does not give extra attacks anymore so tervigons are stuck at the base number of attacks.

Trigons have the same number of attacks after everything balanced out. They lost an attack off their base stats to compensate for getting the extra attack for 2 CC weapons.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
So Broodlord can swap his power out right like the Tyrant?

If so what happens if he goes for the primaris Dominion and casts it?

I'm only asking because he's the only non-synapse psyker in the book. Explicit text is "The Psyker has +6" Synapse range". Does this turn him into a Synapse creature with 6" Synapse range every turn?

Broodlords do not roll. They get the Horror and that is it.

Oh I thought they could substitute there power for a roll on the Nid table. Are broodlords worth the points at all then? I mean 60 points is a lot for The Horror, +2W +2A to the the unit... I mean I could buy a lot of things for that price.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
So Broodlord can swap his power out right like the Tyrant?

If so what happens if he goes for the primaris Dominion and casts it?

I'm only asking because he's the only non-synapse psyker in the book. Explicit text is "The Psyker has +6" Synapse range". Does this turn him into a Synapse creature with 6" Synapse range every turn?

Broodlords do not roll. They get the Horror and that is it.

Oh I thought they could substitute there power for a roll on the Nid table. Are broodlords worth the points at all then? I mean 60 points is a lot for The Horror, +2W +2A to the the unit... I mean I could buy a lot of things for that price.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think you should take into account the bonus smash attack when smashing with Trygons and Tervigons, probably making it a sidegrade.

Tervigons do not get an extra attack as they do not have 2 CC weapons. Crushing claws also does not give extra attacks anymore so tervigons are stuck at the base number of attacks.

Trigons have the same number of attacks after everything balanced out. They lost an attack off their base stats to compensate for getting the extra attack for 2 CC weapons.

Sorry not Tervigons, but definitely Trygons - have the same amount of attacks on a regular charge, have 4 attacks instead of 3 in the old dex when using Smash

 streamdragon wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think you should take into account the bonus smash attack when smashing with Trygons and Tervigons, probably making it a sidegrade.

Tervigons do not get an extra attack as they do not have 2 CC weapons. Crushing claws also does not give extra attacks anymore so tervigons are stuck at the base number of attacks.

Trigons have the same number of attacks after everything balanced out. They lost an attack off their base stats to compensate for getting the extra attack for 2 CC weapons.

Sorry not Tervigons, but definitely Trygons - have the same amount of attacks on a regular charge, have 4 attacks instead of 3 in the old dex when using Smash

Updated, although I would still argue that the loss of rerolls more than pulls down the one bonus smash attack. Against a moving vehicle (WS1), you generate the exact same number of average hits:

New: 4 attacks, 2/3 chance to hit, no rerolls: 2.66.... hits
Old: 3 attacks, 8/9 chance to hit w/ rerolls: 2.66.... hits

If you're fighting something WS3+, the rerolls were better:
WS3 - WS6
New: 4 attacks, 1/2 chance to hit, 2 hits
Old: 3 attacks, 3/4 chance to hit, 2.25 hits

WS7+
New: 4 attacks, 1/3 chance to hit, 1.33.... hits
Old: 3 attacks, 5/9 chance to hit, 1.66..... hits

When not smashing, of course, the numbers skew MUCH harder in favor of rerolls. The only time it is a clear gain for the new version is against a stationary non-walker vehicle.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think you should take into account the bonus smash attack when smashing with Trygons and Tervigons, probably making it a sidegrade.

Tervigons do not get an extra attack as they do not have 2 CC weapons. Crushing claws also does not give extra attacks anymore so tervigons are stuck at the base number of attacks.

Trigons have the same number of attacks after everything balanced out. They lost an attack off their base stats to compensate for getting the extra attack for 2 CC weapons.

Sorry not Tervigons, but definitely Trygons - have the same amount of attacks on a regular charge, have 4 attacks instead of 3 in the old dex when using Smash

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Trygons are WS5.

 Gloomfang wrote:
See its all this "Well I will just take an ally..." that stings a bit too. Thought we would get something in exchange for no allies.

 airmang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
So Broodlord can swap his power out right like the Tyrant?

If so what happens if he goes for the primaris Dominion and casts it?

I'm only asking because he's the only non-synapse psyker in the book. Explicit text is "The Psyker has +6" Synapse range". Does this turn him into a Synapse creature with 6" Synapse range every turn?

Broodlords do not roll. They get the Horror and that is it.

Oh I thought they could substitute there power for a roll on the Nid table. Are broodlords worth the points at all then? I mean 60 points is a lot for The Horror, +2W +2A to the the unit... I mean I could buy a lot of things for that price.

Some small units of Genestealers w/ Broodlords could infiltrate close and try to use The Horror on some dangerous Shooty units early game.

 streamdragon wrote:
Some further elaboration for the whole "scything talons give +1 attack with another CC biomorph". Per unit:

Hive Tyrant: Overall sidegrade, if you for some reason build a CC Tyrant. The 1 bonus attack is offset by losing rerolls to hit, IMO.
Tervigon: Can't have 2 sets of CC biomorphs, so overall nerf due to reroll loss.
Tyranid Prime: Overall sidegrade. Bonus attack offsets loss of rerolls.

Lictors: Sidegrade as above.

Warriors: Sidegrade as above.
Genestealers: 4 PPM for +1 attack. Meh
Hormagaunts: Straight up nerf due to loss of reroll. Can't have 2 sets of CC biomorphs, and gaining AP6 is nigh-worthless.

Shrikes: Sidegrade as warriors
Raveners: Loss of rerolls makes it a nerf. Sure they get +1 attack for 2 sets, but they lost an attack off their profile.
Carnifex: Straight nerf. The loss of an attack off their profile effects shooting Fexes, and CC fexes lost their reroll for no overall gain in attacks.
Trygon: Sidegrade. 2 sets of scything talons give +1 attack, but they lost 1 attack from their profile. When using Smash, they do get an extra attack over their previous version though.
Trygon Prime: See Trygon.

Overall the changes to Scything Talons are a straight nerf, plain and simple. Fexes especially lose out, because they lose an attack whether they are CC or Shooting, but gain nothing if they go CC beyond the attack they already lost from their profile.

Edit: It's also important to note that because they are now actual CC weapons (instead of just biomorphs that grant bonuses), even if Scything Talons gave rerolls they would not apply* to models that had two different types of CC biomorphs; say, Scything Talons and Rending Claws. Because they are now treated like any other CC weapon, you would be forced to pick and choose which you were using.


*This is, of course, subject to the caveat that the Codex could have specified that bonuses stack, which would be a major departure from 6e rules (but not entirely unheard of. See: Scatter Lasers)

Edit 2: Changed Trygons as per SHUPPET's note re: Smash

Draknaul wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.

 pretre wrote:
No big surprise for anyone, I'm sure, but Nidmageddon for Rumor Mongers continues.

Larry Vela and Natfka are putting up some pretty impressive numbers of FALSEs for this release. Larry, in particular, bet a lot on this one and lost big.

That guy who said he talked to someone over Vassal (Tyren) was obviously full of it as well. I think he's at 31 False and 5 True right now.

 streamdragon wrote:

Draknaul wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.

Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except its Initiative stat.

 streamdragon wrote:

Draknaul wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.

Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except it's Initiative stat.

 streamdragon wrote:

Draknaul wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.

Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except its Initiative stat.

 Battlesong wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
See its all this "Well I will just take an ally..." that stings a bit too. Thought we would get something in exchange for no allies.

That would have required the writers to do something imaginative

 ductvader wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Draknaul wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.

Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except its Initiative stat.

I think he just means total.

3 stock +1 for Scytals +1 charging +1 solo tail attack.

ductvader wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Draknaul wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.

Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except its Initiative stat.

I think he just means total.

3 stock +1 for Scytals +1 charging +1 solo tail attack.

tetrisphreak wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Draknaul wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.

Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except it's Initiative stat.

Not exactly...It is an additional attack after all. Also for carnifex broods you must factor in the D3 hammer of wrath hits (average 2) that don't even need to roll to-hit. So a fex drops down to 3 base attacks, but with 2x scytals and will get 5 attacks on the charge, plus a tail attack, plus D3 hammer of wrath all at s9 or s8.

Not bad for ~130 points.

 pretre wrote:
No big surprise for anyone, I'm sure, but Nidmageddon for Rumor Mongers continues.

Larry Vela and Natfka are putting up some pretty impressive numbers of FALSEs for this release. Larry, in particular, bet a lot on this one and lost big.

That guy who said he talked to someone over Vassal (Tyren) was obviously full of it as well. I think he's at 31 False and 5 True right now.

streamdragon 567025 6422392 wrote:

I think he just means total.

3 stock +1 for Scytals +1 charging +1 solo tail attack.
I am certain he does not mean total. A fex with Scything Talons + Heavy Venom Cannon would have 3 base and 1 tail. +1 for charging if relevant.

Draknaul wrote:

streamdragon 567025 6422392 wrote:

I think he just means total.

3 stock +1 for Scytals +1 charging +1 solo tail attack.
I am certain he does not mean total. A fex with Scything Talons + Heavy Venom Cannon would have 3 base and 1 tail. +1 for charging if relevant.

Almost, I thought that the tail counts as a cc weapon for the purpose of calculating the + 1 for two cc weapons.