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troa wrote: As long as everyone has access, and with escalation they do (money constraints aside), 40k is still competitive. Now, what the scene looks like and whether it's just titans going around bashing each other is another issue.
This. IMO esculation is far less of a problem than the problem Death Stars. At least (almost) everyone has access to them. Not something you can say of 2++ Death Stars.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Well, yeah. It's about 2000% more profitable for GW to make cumbersome rules tor 28mm games to include Epic-level formations.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Peregrine wrote: It isn't the end of competitive play, it's just the end of competitive play without explicit rules about what is legal. Very few, if any, competitive events will allow superheavies and D-weapons, so the only change is that every event will have a list of banned units/armies/etc instead of just the "comp" ones.
Remember when people said the same thing about Allies? Now they're accepted because they're part of 40k.
If you're not playing with D-strength weapons, you're not playing 40k anymore. Having tournaments with all these house-rule excluding the different supplements may get rather confusing.
Do you expect tournaments to be banning the Codex supplements too?
The allies thing is because they are in the BRB, and are *supposedly* now an integral part of the main game.
Escalation is a supplement, and thus is more optional than allies, meaning that tournaments may be less inclined to allow it, especially as it's utterly gamebreaking to take Str D weaponry. Normal Baneblades, however, I can understand...
Maybe some of them will just house rule "No Str D"...
2) Players roll off to see who goes first, Player A wins and places a Revenant Titan on the table, Player B places a Revenant Titan on the table. Player B rolls to seize initiative and gets a 5, player B says GG, packs up and leaves.
Sounds like any 40k game I play where I'm not facing Orks...
Player A: My Opponent
Player B: My CSM (I both suck at tactics, and nerf-hammer is no great help)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/08 19:51:33
Warhounds aren't in the book, so unless FW releases a list of additional Lords of War, or you work something you with your opponent CSM only have the Lord of Skulls.
ClockworkZion wrote: Warhounds aren't in the book, so unless FW releases a list of additional Lords of War, or you work something you with your opponent CSM only have the Lord of Skulls.
Selym wrote: I plan to save up for a Warhound Titan, and then smash some Imperials >
Though, I don't much like the prospect of facing a SH myself...
I didn't think a Warhound Titan was in the list you can use. At least not right now. I could be wrong though, so please correct me if I am.
You are correct; the only Titan in the book is the Revenant for Eldar & Dark Eldar.
Dang.
But why do the eldar get a Titan, and not the rest of us?
The Escalation book has basically 1 rule in it; "You can take super heavies in 40k now". That's it. The list of super heavies they threw in there was so people have a reason to buy the book and now be left out.
Spoiler:
Going forward, Forgeworld will be stamping "Lord of War" on their escalation approved super heavies. For example, the new Imperial armor 2: Second Edition has the rules for space marine Fellblades, Typhoons and Cereberus that I think have the Lord of War stamp. It's only a matter of time before FW and/or GWFaQ in a heap of super heavies.
Matt1785 wrote:Ironclads in Luscious Drop Pods!! Woo!! D-this baby! He can move 36", sure, but when I get out of a drop pod and assault I'd like to see him jump away.
Currently I am building an Eldar army and I think that the Super Heavies will be tough to put down, but like I said, I can see taking this addition for what it is, something new. It's going to be a tough game, but as long as I remember it's a game for fun, it'll be ok.
I don't own a Revenant Titan.. but I am saving up for a Warhound / Reaver. Those aren't allowed.. YET!!
You cannot assault out of Lucius drop pods anymore, and haven't been able to for the better part of a year. Nice try though.
ClockworkZion wrote: Warhounds aren't in the book, so unless FW releases a list of additional Lords of War, or you work something you with your opponent CSM only have the Lord of Skulls.
Selym wrote: I plan to save up for a Warhound Titan, and then smash some Imperials >
Though, I don't much like the prospect of facing a SH myself...
I didn't think a Warhound Titan was in the list you can use. At least not right now. I could be wrong though, so please correct me if I am.
You are correct; the only Titan in the book is the Revenant for Eldar & Dark Eldar.
Dang.
But why do the eldar get a Titan, and not the rest of us?
The Escalation book has basically 1 rule in it; "You can take super heavies in 40k now". That's it. The list of super heavies they threw in there was so people have a reason to buy the book and now be left out.
Spoiler:
Going forward, Forgeworld will be stamping "Lord of War" on their escalation approved super heavies. For example, the new Imperial armor 2: Second Edition has the rules for space marine Fellblades, Typhoons and Cereberus that I think have the Lord of War stamp. It's only a matter of time before FW and/or GWFaQ in a heap of super heavies.
Matt1785 wrote:Ironclads in Luscious Drop Pods!! Woo!! D-this baby! He can move 36", sure, but when I get out of a drop pod and assault I'd like to see him jump away.
Currently I am building an Eldar army and I think that the Super Heavies will be tough to put down, but like I said, I can see taking this addition for what it is, something new. It's going to be a tough game, but as long as I remember it's a game for fun, it'll be ok.
I don't own a Revenant Titan.. but I am saving up for a Warhound / Reaver. Those aren't allowed.. YET!!
You cannot assault out of Lucius drop pods anymore, and haven't been able to for the better part of a year. Nice try though.
It says in the book that the Lords of War you can take are the ones in the book from page XX to page YY (I don't have my book in my hands as I'm writing this, but you get the idea). Now the is nothing stopping FW adding more later, or GW releasing datasheets that add stuff, or you house r.ing stuff with your friends, but as it stands right now without any of those things, the list is fairly restricted.
ClockworkZion wrote: Warhounds aren't in the book, so unless FW releases a list of additional Lords of War, or you work something you with your opponent CSM only have the Lord of Skulls.
Selym wrote: I plan to save up for a Warhound Titan, and then smash some Imperials >
Though, I don't much like the prospect of facing a SH myself...
I didn't think a Warhound Titan was in the list you can use. At least not right now. I could be wrong though, so please correct me if I am.
You are correct; the only Titan in the book is the Revenant for Eldar & Dark Eldar.
Dang.
But why do the eldar get a Titan, and not the rest of us?
The Escalation book has basically 1 rule in it; "You can take super heavies in 40k now". That's it. The list of super heavies they threw in there was so people have a reason to buy the book and now be left out.
Spoiler:
Going forward, Forgeworld will be stamping "Lord of War" on their escalation approved super heavies. For example, the new Imperial armor 2: Second Edition has the rules for space marine Fellblades, Typhoons and Cereberus that I think have the Lord of War stamp. It's only a matter of time before FW and/or GWFaQ in a heap of super heavies.
Matt1785 wrote:Ironclads in Luscious Drop Pods!! Woo!! D-this baby! He can move 36", sure, but when I get out of a drop pod and assault I'd like to see him jump away.
Currently I am building an Eldar army and I think that the Super Heavies will be tough to put down, but like I said, I can see taking this addition for what it is, something new. It's going to be a tough game, but as long as I remember it's a game for fun, it'll be ok.
I don't own a Revenant Titan.. but I am saving up for a Warhound / Reaver. Those aren't allowed.. YET!!
You cannot assault out of Lucius drop pods anymore, and haven't been able to for the better part of a year. Nice try though.
It says in the book that the Lords of War you can take are the ones in the book from page XX to page YY (I don't have my book in my hands as I'm writing this, but you get the idea). Now the is nothing stopping FW adding more later, or GW releasing datasheets that add stuff, or you house r.ing stuff with your friends, but as it stands right now without any of those things, the list is fairly restricted.
Well that sucks. I really cba to take that bloody khorne thingy.
Eugh. Just sounds like incredibly lazy and poor rules writing/balancing.
At least the HH books are sensible in restricting them to 2000pts+ and no more than 25% of the force org.
Either way, just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Lazy implementation, obvious money grabbing, and poor balance considerations even by GW's standards.
YYMV. I like the addition of Victory Points for stripping wounds or hull points off Super Heavies, the bonus to Siezing the Initiative is nice, and the Warlord Traits are designed to help you fight the Lords of War even better. And I love the mission "Defiant to the End" as it pits 1k of one person's army against a lone Lord of War and victory is determined by if or when the Lord of War falls.
I think it balances fine as long as both players get into the game expecting the same thing and know if they plan on using Escalation rles in their game or not. It balances fine casually, with the normal social contract stipulations, but less so when people try to sneak things onto the table without warning you just so they can get their jollies by grinding your army in a bloody paste.
YYMV. I like the addition of Victory Points for stripping wounds or hull points off Super Heavies, the bonus to Siezing the Initiative is nice, and the Warlord Traits are designed to help you fight the Lords of War even better. And I love the mission "Defiant to the End" as it pits 1k of one person's army against a lone Lord of War and victory is determined by if or when the Lord of War falls.
I think it balances fine as long as both players get into the game expecting the same thing and know if they plan on using Escalation rles in their game or not. It balances fine casually, with the normal social contract stipulations, but less so when people try to sneak things onto the table without warning you just so they can get their jollies by grinding your army in a bloody paste.
I guess those are valid points, but I just can't shake the feeling that it feels so terribly lazy. Putting the onus on the player to self balance games beforehand is pretty weak rules writing, even for an alleged 'beer and pretzels' game. Especially considering the cost of the game compared to other games that are far more finished and balanced.
I don't know, I guess I can still have fun and all that, but it'd be more because of the people I'd play with then the game itself.
Ah well, different strokes and all that.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
YYMV. I like the addition of Victory Points for stripping wounds or hull points off Super Heavies, the bonus to Siezing the Initiative is nice, and the Warlord Traits are designed to help you fight the Lords of War even better. And I love the mission "Defiant to the End" as it pits 1k of one person's army against a lone Lord of War and victory is determined by if or when the Lord of War falls.
I think it balances fine as long as both players get into the game expecting the same thing and know if they plan on using Escalation rles in their game or not. It balances fine casually, with the normal social contract stipulations, but less so when people try to sneak things onto the table without warning you just so they can get their jollies by grinding your army in a bloody paste.
I guess those are valid points, but I just can't shake the feeling that it feels so terribly lazy. Putting the onus on the player to self balance games beforehand is pretty weak rules writing, even for an alleged 'beer and pretzels' game. Especially considering the cost of the game compared to other games that are far more finished and balanced.
I don't know, I guess I can still have fun and all that, but it'd be more because of the people I'd play with then the game itself.
Ah well, different strokes and all that.
I'm pretty sure the responsibility of balancing the game on a personal level has been on the players for a long time and this is just the most blatant case of it to date.
I'm pretty sure the responsibility of balancing the game on a personal level has been on the players for a long time and this is just the most blatant case of it to date.
Sure, but I feel like its only getting worse and more obvious GW isn't trying particularly hard. Again, laziness is what springs to mind. The game is still playable, but I just feel like they should be trying to make the game more balanced and less gimmicky than trying to push out as many expensive supplements as possible.
They are a business afterall, so I can't fault them too much.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
To all the people saying "Forgeworld may add more lords or war" you can see from the previews of Imperial Armour two Volume two that the stuff in there is already labelled as lords of war. I expect an FAQ on what is an isn't a lord of war very soon from FW, which should at least address the obscene faction imbalance in Escalation.
In all honesty I think this is a complete shambles from GW. Not only is the book itself a crappy copy+paste job nowhere near worth it's price tag, the lords or war system is just so inferior to the better balanced and more comprehensive system FW have put in place. I was expecting some kind of major nerf to super-heavies, like restriction of access to main weapons ("lack of ammunition supplies" or something like that) or d3 S10 hits before the game or something equally risky so that armies using them wouldn't be consistent and I also figured GW would make this an expansion because surely the idea of allowing the crazy power of something like the revenant in standard 40k was too slowed even for their money-hungriness, but it appears greed won out on that one. With the increasing silliness in the game, I really do fear things will start to go sour as far as the separation between casual play and competitive stuff. Of course we can and will have pretty much any mainstream tournament ban the most ridiculous stuff, but where does that stop? I know a lot of tournaments are allotting different amounts of points for different armies now, could we have more similar restrictions introduce with 40k. I wonder if GW with think "all of these tournaments are deviating a long way from the rules we've laid out - perhaps there need to be changes" in 7th edition. More likely I fear they add something new and extremely expensive to bleed more money out of their fans.
Currently not in posession of any armies - I merely theorycraft and discuss background,
Waiting for HH Book 6 so I can start an Imperial Army army.
Every now and again I'll have a flick through a WD, have a look at some of my mini collection or read a BL novel and it will make me want to give 40k a try again.
Then I see something like this, I remember why I stopped playing the game last time and the army goes back in the case. What an absolute joke, really the only thing anyone could do in that situation is laugh and would indeed be tremendously funny except for seeing what was once a beloved game of mine fallen so far.
Obviously the sole purpose was to get as many people to buy the Eldar titan as possible, or whatever other super-heavy, and any attempt at balance (beyond them being featured on both sides) be damned.
As a tournament organizer, I have noticed some mixed feelings in the local community regarding the two new expansions. My tentative proposition is to run my 40k singles event as normal prior to these two books but to also set aside 4 tables for a dedicated Escalation/Strongpoint Assault mini-tournament, where players have a clear understanding of what they are facing.
No one at my store really approves of the Escalation expansion including myself. We're also not strangers to larger casual games anyway (2000+ points) so if we do want to use super heavies we might as well be using the rules for Apocalypse. We have a tournament coming up this Saturday; Escalation is banned.
Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000
You would think Nerds and Geeks would be much smarter than this eh? We fall for it all the time.
Ah it was only what a year ago about allies and flyers going to ruin the game. Seem like most people adapted.
It's a good thing the tournament scene hasn't been dominated by the Necron bakery of doom then Taudar....
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
Watching this video made me lose all respect for Games Workshop.
The blatant, shameless cash grab has been rubbed in everyone's face. They didn't play test this crap.
This release was a copy past of the Apocalypse book, with an aggressive release schedule from the marketing & finance department to sell plastic toys.
It is not wargaming by any stretch of the imagination.
I am seriously considering getting out of 40K; I just can't support this company any longer.
Peregrine wrote: It isn't the end of competitive play, it's just the end of competitive play without explicit rules about what is legal. Very few, if any, competitive events will allow superheavies and D-weapons, so the only change is that every event will have a list of banned units/armies/etc instead of just the "comp" ones.
Remember when people said the same thing about Allies? Now they're accepted because they're part of 40k.
If you're not playing with D-strength weapons, you're not playing 40k anymore. Having tournaments with all these house-rule excluding the different supplements may get rather confusing.
Do you expect tournaments to be banning the Codex supplements too?
Well they already ban IA books so (not saying IA is broken. Then again it would be hard to say that considering my IG army depends on it )
Anyways.... competitive 40k won't end. There's too many individuals that enjoy the game. Either it will stay in as only a few superheavies are actually scary (yeah try and convince me Tau, Tyranids, and both flavors of Chaos even got something worth glancing at), only D weapons and maybe a few other things will be banned, or the entire thing will be ignored just like a certain air supplement that gave rules for flyers but was largely ignored hint hint
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/09 07:44:32
I hate these posts. All they do is mock other people's concerns. There's not even any counter argument that makes any points or shows why things like the Revenant Titan is not a problem (whilst many have given reasons why it is). It's just out and out mockery without support.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ashrog wrote: I'm confused. Am I the only person here who doesn't own a Revenant Titan? Because it sounds like they are suddenly springing up everywhere.
Not at all. But expect them to be showing up a lot mire from now on. Dakka is kind of the canary in the mine. When something is bad, you'll see the complaints here first. They take a while to trickle out into the everyday gaming world.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/09 09:21:23
What is best in life?
To wound enemy units, see them driven from the table, and hear the lamentations of their player.
Watching this video made me lose all respect for Games Workshop.
The blatant, shameless cash grab has been rubbed in everyone's face. They didn't play test this crap.
This release was a copy past of the Apocalypse book, with an aggressive release schedule from the marketing & finance department to sell plastic toys.
It is not wargaming by any stretch of the imagination.
I am seriously considering getting out of 40K; I just can't support this company any longer.
To be fair, 40k has never been a spectacularly balanced game or even one well suited to Competitive play in the first place. We've always had "loser" armies (e.g. Sisters now, Necrons and Tau during 5th, IG in 2nd/3rd/4th/first year 5th, etc) and we've always had "Winner" armies (Eldar for 2nd/3rd/part of 4th/now 6th, IG/SW/GK's in 5th, etc). We've also always had different tournament standards as to points level and list legality depending on where you play.
Games Workshop had just stopped maintaining any pretense of competitive gameplay at this point. They just want to make it easier and/or more accessible for people to use all of the models they make so more people will buy them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/09 09:10:54
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
We fall for it all the time.
13000
12000
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1690
WIP (1875)
1300
760
WIP (150) 