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They are alright as it stands, but I would like to see one of these changes:

Points drop to around 36-38. Tac marines are 14, and termies are 2x as durable and 2x as shooty at long range, so that puts them at 28, and then the rest covers the PF and 5++.

Some kind of ability to allow a DS charge, With VV losing this, I doubt we'll see anything like this though.

Special Issue ammo, but they'd actually need a points buff here.

Maybe something like DA knights- if half the squad is in base contact, +1T.

I wouldn't directly touch many of the Terminator rules (though they should never cost more than MEQ cost x 2), rather I'd change the things which make them weak. Most AP2 shooting should be AP3 - you should ask yourself if things REALLY deserve AP2, the armour penetrating value of a lascannon which is a focussed anti-tank gun. That would require a mass rules rewrite. Likewise, assault should be way better and things shouldn't be able to just jump over enemies head unless they fly - those two changes would massively buff most assault infantry, which includes terminators. Deep strike should be far more reliable and reserves should be almost entirely controlled - this injects more player control and really changes nothing; if units would be broken with deep strike, they shouldn't be able to get it. Finally, I'd make the game alternating activation which would again buff them. On top of all of this, there needs to be cover changes so that cover gives a penalty to hit, not a save - then terminators hugely benefit from cover as well rather than it being redundant. It also helps tame the mass small arms thing going on ATM.

Basically, many of the core rules which need changing anyway to make the game flow have to change to even consider how to fix terminators. Even if they were T5 W2, 2+/4++ on normal terminators, it still wouldn't make them good; assault is just too weak and their weapons too limited.

For tactical terminators... point cost decrease, some sort of special ammo (wounds on a 2+?) for the storm bolter (or even just something like Rending), and more weapon upgrade options. Well, not necessarily all three, it'd depend, but at least two out of those three.... well, depending on how much the point cost drops, of course.

Alas, GW is oblivious to the problems tac termies especially are facing, so nothing was done for the 6th Ed codices, and likely won't be in 7th Ed either!

Well, the problem with terminators is that they're actually fairly priced for what you get. That means you can't just drop their points cost without making whole swaths of infantry units in the game extra crappy, which they don't need right now.

The real issue here isn't that there's something wrong with terminators, the issue is that there's something wrong with the rest of the game. Namely, the introduction of low-AV fliers and the new monstrous creatures. Back in the day, it wasn't always worth it to, say, invest in plasma spam, because plasma guns were only sort of good against terminators, but nothing else. Nowadays, everybody needs to bring a plethora of stuff in their list that can kill T6 2+/5++ and such.

The end result is that, becasue there are units that are like terminators, but are harder to kill, the meta has shifted in such a way where you're already building lists that are great against terminators.

This, unfortunately, makes the fix a LOT harder. Either you need to roll back the clock and get rid of fliers and the new monstrous creatures, make those new units ruinously expensive to field, or make it so that you don't kill them in the same way that you kill terminators.

... And because none of that will happen, terminators will sort of just be screwed for the near future. If you can't make them better (because they're still not going to be as good as a riptide), and you can't make them cheaper (because that will make lesser infantry useless), then... well... what can you actually do to them?

Right now terminators are way to expensive..
simply because there are SOOO many ways to deal with 2+ this ed.
so no one has a problem killing them...
I think T5 and a movement after DS would suffice

I like the +1W idea. it would make them more resilient (but not immune) to weight of fire and plasma, but still leave them open to ID from dedicated anti-tank weapons (i.e., anything str8 or higher). the interaction with ICs that can take terminator armor would need to be thought through, though. should a captain that chooses termie armor be W4? not sure.

on the offense end of things, I think any tweaks to weapon profiles is likely to have undesirable results in other corners of the game since those weapons aren't unique to termies. a great buff would be to give them a new rule called teleport assault or some such, which would let them assault on the turn they arrived from deepstrike.

it doesn't increase their damage output directly, but it does potentially save them from the initial round of incoming fire they have to weather now. there's still the chance they could fail the charge and have to eat it, anyway. this rule would also force players to balance the potential benefits of a shorter charge distance with the increased odds of a deep strike mishap, so there's some thinking involved.

alas, as others have pointed out, GW seems to be really against assault-on-arrival units these days. so, probably won't happen

 FirePainter wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Ok, lets go deeper into what they should be buffed to then. Since they are 2x bolters, 2 shots rapid fire? Seems interesting, but that means you couldnt assault after firing, making their dual use less present. Salvo same thing. Therefore, assault his to be the rule of choice for firing. Assault 4 seems excessive, but assault 3 seems fine.

They're terminators, weapon type does not matter as they have relentless.

My opinion give them T5 that would help against small arms fire. Perhaps the option to have power weapons instead of fists

Honestly, I say no to this only because of what it requires for everything else. MC? Daemon Princes? T6 plague termies? Honestly, I'd rather go for 2W. Make them capable of taking on plasma, toughing through lasgun spam. But a lascannon (if their invuln save fails) will annihilate them as per usual.

What do you guys think about centurions minus the looks?

They are units with S5, T5, W2 and 2+ Slow and Purposeful, they can move, shoot, and assault! They can each fire two weapons, with awesome graveguns.

Yes they dont have an invuln but hey stick them in bolstered cover for a pretty resilient unit.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
What do you guys think about centurions minus the looks?

They are units with S5, T5, W2 and 2+ Slow and Purposeful, they can move, shoot, and assault! They can each fire two weapons, with awesome graveguns.

Yes they dont have an invuln but hey stick them in bolstered cover for a pretty resilient unit.

Assault is poor, Shooting is actually very good and I've seen them used for good success.

Assault just needs more attacks or something, better transport options maybe as well, it's still better then it's Mutilator counterpart by miles, but still bad at its job.

They are primarily an assault unit. Bolters have very weak damage output.

They'd be OK with a point reduction...regular Terminators should be 35, Hammernators 40, and the heavy weapons should be discounted by ~5-10 pts each.

Tactical terminators should be able to fire their bolters twice if they're not assaulting.

I think increasing their toughness to 5 isn't justified, given that i don't think weight of fire is the problem, more the spready of ap 2/rending weapons. Giving them a 4++ would be helpful, and i think they have fallen behind the power curve recently.

Our tactical terminators are allowed a heavy weapon for every three in a squad. Stormbolters shoot 3 times at half range (12").

Then again, we don't play 6th Ed either.

If Terminators cannot charge on the turn they are brought in from Deep Strike, they should by all rights have 2 Wounds.

At 31 points per model for a CSM Terminator all they are really used for is Combi-Plasma. 31 points, for a suicidal - first blood - shooti - game of chance.

Now I have run Terminators for a LONG ass time, trying to make them melee viable.. But it IS hopeless.. There is simply NO reason to run them melee in 6th ED. Sure, they'll wreck pretty much anything in melee with TH/SS load outs, but my CSM don't have that option... We have... Combi-Weaponry and Marks of Chaos that arguably give 0 tactical advantages....

The only competent way to run Melee Terminators in a CSM list to take a LR DT and fill it with 4-5 of these buggers while taking a Khorne Lord. Mark of Tzeentch? 4++ is pointless, Mark of Slaanesh? Pointless because your Mark doesn't affect Unwieldly and let you strike at I2 instead of I1. Mark of Nurgle? Means nothing, a T5 model still gets stomped flat by MCs and with only 1W all ap2 MC attacks kill them on a failed roll of 5++ for their Invulnerable Save.... Leaving Mark of Khorne, the only "Decent" Mark of Chaos since it actually has a functioning use if tailored and poured points into...

All being said, Termintaors (Especially Chaos Terminators) suck and fill no niche a squad of pretty much anything else capable of taking special weapons would be better suited for.

On a side note, the last time I took Chaos Terminators in a list I dropped 3 x 3 man squads behind enemy lines and tried to Combi-Plasma stuff. Killed 1 Devilfish, 3 Piranha then got slaughtered by droves and droves of Fire Warrior spam.

A simple points reduction

Personally I'm a big fan of any of the following from what was mentioned earlier:

2 heavy weapons per 5 terminators

Cost drop

Always get their 2+ armor save unless the attack is AP1.

I doubt the third option would ever show up as a rule, so a combination of a cost drop and the extra heavy weapon would work for me.

Assault termies? Nothing. They're fine as they are. Extremely potent, in fact. I try not to make a list with out them.

Tactical termies? Two heavy weapons to a squad seems like a reasonable suggestion.

All termies should be allowed to exchange power fist for a heavy shooting weapon with an upgrade cost.

And I second the fact that assault model termies should be able to mix/match melee weapons.

I play orks and my friend plays LR termies.. largest problem everytime is he just doesn't have the firepower to whittle boys away before combat starts.

It's true, Vanilla Termies are a small letdown, and you succeed with them on only CERTAIN occasions, and only with CERTAIN wargear. This is a list of options I'd propose to change them (picking only one):

- Make their storm bolters AP4, or Assault 3.
- Giving the DA the finger, and letting ALL Chapters mix their terminators. I'd love to play with a squad of 10 termies, part of them wielding TC/SS here and there, covered by an assault cannon or two.
- +1 Wound. Two-wounded Terminators would be definetely worth taking, and more fluff-wise... although, it might cause some rage in xenos army players.

 Tigramans wrote:
It's true, Vanilla Termies are a small letdown, and you succeed with them on only CERTAIN occasions, and only with CERTAIN wargear. This is a list of options I'd propose to change them (picking only one):

- Make their storm bolters AP4, or Assault 3.
- Giving the DA the finger, and letting ALL Chapters mix their terminators. I'd love to play with a squad of 10 termies, part of them wielding TC/SS here and there, covered by an assault cannon or two.
- +1 Wound. Two-wounded Terminators would be definetely worth taking, and more fluff-wise... although, it might cause some rage in xenos army players.

It would also either heavily nerf or heavily buff (Depending on if they get +1W or not) the Paladins.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

It would also either heavily nerf or heavily buff (Depending on if they get +1W or not) the Paladins.

I knew that someone would mention the Paladins. In that case, all they'd need is +1T, but as I mentioned: the +1W proposition is a potential rage magnet, and it was a semi-insane idea.

Also: correcting my earlier comment: not TC, but TH.

Ailaros Nailed it on the head, Termintaors are just a distraction unit now, Its a 200 point sink for a distraction that needs to be dealt with but it could still work with your list in the grand scheme of things. Ive never been huge fans of termis in my chaos lists, And im always afraid of them espically if im lacking in the ap2 side of things. It really is fun though shooting 4 lascannons and wiping out 3 paladins.

I think they could probably use a point drop to something like the cost of Chaos termis or maybe drop the minium unit down.

Drop points to 40

Make Stormbolters salvo 2/3

I think the points decrease is the best option since any other options either buff armies (GK) too much or make them too much like other units (centurions)

I though I read somewhere that Terminator armor was originally developed to repair starships plasma drives or to something along those lines; maybe make them immune to plasma and/or plasma-like weaponry.

Horus Heresy terminators cost a good bit less, but come with combi-bolter and power weapon, do not have ATSKNF, but are also scoring units.

I think that may be the best option: reduce their points, make them scoring units (they're supposed to be the guys who survive where nobody else can), and make them stormbolters and power weapons as basic equipment (which means you can choose between sword, maul, or axe), with options to upgrade to powerfist/chainfists.

But, of course, any real fixes to terminators won't happen without a complete rewrite of all the codexes to match. I think we really need a complete reboot to the game, which we haven't had since 3rd Edition.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
I though I read somewhere that Terminator armor was originally developed to repair starships plasma drives or to something along those lines; maybe make them immune to plasma and/or plasma-like weaponry.

NO. Just NO.

Actually, you should go put this in the Overpowered (but fluffy) changes to your codex thread.

Its been said before, but the ultimate way to fix terminators (and all 2+ Save infantry) is to revamp all weapons.

All weapons that are AP2 or better save Melta, Lance, and S9+ weapons should be reduced to AP3. Across the board, no exceptions.

Rending, Bladestorm, and Monofilament should be reduced to AP3. There simply is no reason that a low to medium strength attack can consistently slice through TEQ armour 1/6th of the time.

The only AP2 close combat attacks should be from basic weapons that have the Unwieldy special rule (unless its a relic equivalent). Also, MC and FMC base attacks are now AP3, and Smash attacks are AP2/Unwieldy.

Finally, 2+ saves should never, EVER be made available to any type of MC (looking at you Riptide). By nerfing weapons across the board, you leave MCs with 4 or more wounds AND a 2+ save even more powerful then they already are, and that would have to be addressed.

Sadly, none of this will ever happen.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Its been said before, but the ultimate way to fix terminators (and all 2+ Save infantry) is to revamp all weapons.

All weapons that are AP2 or better save Melta, Lance, and S9+ weapons should be reduced to AP3. Across the board, no exceptions.

Rending, Bladestorm, and Monofilament should be reduced to AP3. There simply is no reason that a low to medium strength attack can consistently slice through TEQ armour 1/6th of the time.

The only AP2 close combat attacks should be from basic weapons that have the Unwieldy special rule (unless its a relic equivalent). Also, MC and FMC base attacks are now AP3, and Smash attacks are AP2/Unwieldy.

Finally, 2+ saves should never, EVER be made available to any type of MC (looking at you Riptide). By nerfing weapons across the board, you leave MCs with 4 or more wounds AND a 2+ save even more powerful then they already are, and that would have to be addressed.

Sadly, none of this will ever happen.

Well then their are things like railguns which make sense both fluff-wise and gameplay-wise to have AP1 or 2.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Its been said before, but the ultimate way to fix terminators (and all 2+ Save infantry) is to revamp all weapons.

All weapons that are AP2 or better save Melta, Lance, and S9+ weapons should be reduced to AP3. Across the board, no exceptions.

Rending, Bladestorm, and Monofilament should be reduced to AP3. There simply is no reason that a low to medium strength attack can consistently slice through TEQ armour 1/6th of the time.

The only AP2 close combat attacks should be from basic weapons that have the Unwieldy special rule (unless its a relic equivalent). Also, MC and FMC base attacks are now AP3, and Smash attacks are AP2/Unwieldy.

Finally, 2+ saves should never, EVER be made available to any type of MC (looking at you Riptide). By nerfing weapons across the board, you leave MCs with 4 or more wounds AND a 2+ save even more powerful then they already are, and that would have to be addressed.

Sadly, none of this will ever happen.

Well then their are things like railguns which make sense both fluff-wise and gameplay-wise to have AP1 or 2.

Maybe lower it to S8 weapons that are AP2 or better. The biggest problem has always been the lower strength AP2 and Rending-equivalent stuff anyway (and MC/FMCs)

Considering that Dire Avengers have a special issue shurikan rifles, surely teminators having a special issue storm bolter isn't out if the question. Just a special war gear entry in their profile like "Retribution pattern storm bolter" salvo 5/3 30" range or some such. Only terminator squads can get them, not ICs or any other unit that can use a storm bolter.