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Hi, all.

I saw some art work the other day, It was of an Astartes Predator tank, the art work was awesome, but it got me thinking of something that never crossed my mind before:

Do the Astartes crew of a Predator wear power amour? Surely not? How could they move and fight effectively inside of a tank while wearing 'mine's bigger than yours' power armour?

Or, is this like, 'how can ten Astartes fit inside a Rhino APC?'

'Because Grim Dark!'

 Tower75 wrote:
Hi, all.

I saw some art work the other day, It was of an Astartes Predator tank, the art work was awesome, but it got me thinking of something that never crossed my mind before:

Do the Astartes crew of a Predator wear power amour? Surely not? How could they move and fight effectively inside of a tank while wearing 'mine's bigger than yours' power armour?

Or, is this like, 'how can ten Astartes fit inside a Rhino APC?'

'Because Grim Dark!'

There better question is where they fit all the ammo/generators and the eight foot tall glorified quarterbacks.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Tower75 wrote:
Hi, all.

I saw some art work the other day, It was of an Astartes Predator tank, the art work was awesome, but it got me thinking of something that never crossed my mind before:

Do the Astartes crew of a Predator wear power amour? Surely not? How could they move and fight effectively inside of a tank while wearing 'mine's bigger than yours' power armour?

Or, is this like, 'how can ten Astartes fit inside a Rhino APC?'

'Because Grim Dark!'

There better question is where they fit all the ammo/generators and the eight foot tall glorified quarterbacks.

Agreed. It would make more sense for the tanks to be crewed by combat trained serfs, no?

This begs another question: if the Atartes are shock troops, not front line troops, why do they have tanks I the first place?

And, which company supplies the crews?

 Tower75 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Tower75 wrote:
Hi, all.

I saw some art work the other day, It was of an Astartes Predator tank, the art work was awesome, but it got me thinking of something that never crossed my mind before:

Do the Astartes crew of a Predator wear power amour? Surely not? How could they move and fight effectively inside of a tank while wearing 'mine's bigger than yours' power armour?

Or, is this like, 'how can ten Astartes fit inside a Rhino APC?'

'Because Grim Dark!'

There better question is where they fit all the ammo/generators and the eight foot tall glorified quarterbacks.

Agreed. It would make more sense for the tanks to be crewed by combat trained serfs, no?

This begs another question: if the Atartes are shock troops, not front line troops, why do they have tanks I the first place?

And, which company supplies the crews?

Because as warfare from WWII onwards showed us, armored cavalry is terrific for shock and awe.

IIRC they wear their armor, but not backpacks.

 Nevelon wrote:
IIRC they wear their armor, but not backpacks.

That would make sense, but isn't it the backpack that holds the power plant that powers the armour?

 Tower75 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
IIRC they wear their armor, but not backpacks.

That would make sense, but isn't it the backpack that holds the power plant that powers the armour?

90% certain your right.

 Tower75 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
IIRC they wear their armor, but not backpacks.

That would make sense, but isn't it the backpack that holds the power plant that powers the armour?

If you look at the accessory sure that comes with SM tanks, the marine in the turret lacks a backpack, but has a cable plugged into the tank. I would assume that all stations inside the tanks have similar plugs to let the marines' armor run off the tanks power plant. If they need to bail, they just need to grab their packs when they pick up their bolters.

 Tower75 wrote:
It would make more sense for the tanks to be crewed by combat trained serfs, no?

Some chapters do use serfs, and other servitors (well, the Iron Hands have servitors driving Rhinos...)

 Tower75 wrote:
And, which company supplies the crews?

Depends on the chapter but I would guess reserve companies.

There was also some very old fluff that come chapters sealed their crew in, similar to a dreadnought (Iron Hands & Iron Warriors I think were mentioned).

This is just speculation but I think that the tank could be commnded by a space maruine but the rest of the crew could be normal humans/serfs.

beast_gts wrote:


There was also some very old fluff that come chapters sealed their crew in, similar to a dreadnought (Iron Hands & Iron Warriors I think were mentioned).

Now that's just harsh. +10 Grim Dark points there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sienisoturi wrote:
This is just speculation but I think that the tank could be commnded by a space maruine but the rest of the crew could be normal humans/serfs.

That would also make sense. But then, an Astartes would have to work with a mere mortal, and the shame caused by having to even talk to a mortal would probably cause said Astartes to take a 200 years penitent crusade.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Tower75 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
IIRC they wear their armor, but not backpacks.

That would make sense, but isn't it the backpack that holds the power plant that powers the armour?

If you look at the accessory sure that comes with SM tanks, the marine in the turret lacks a backpack, but has a cable plugged into the tank. I would assume that all stations inside the tanks have similar plugs to let the marines' armor run off the tanks power plant. If they need to bail, they just need to grab their packs when they pick up their bolters.

+1
If you assemble an Attack Bike you will notice that the guy arming the 2nd wpn has no backpack too. Instead he has some kind of interface on the back of his armor which are mirrored in the seat.

beast_gts wrote:
There was also some very old fluff that come chapters sealed their crew in, similar to a dreadnought (Iron Hands & Iron Warriors I think were mentioned).

Found it: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Liber_Proditor_Armorum

I really hope they don't wear power armour.
It will lead to ridiculous situations like this:

Iron_Captain: Lol, that picture is hilarious.

Is it cramped inside a predator?

If you try to model it, I should say so...

Yes, it is an Ork. But I had to make a really short seat so that he doesn't bang his head and, well you can see the issue he would have moving about.
An Ork is not that much bigger than a SM in armour.

Welcome to the strange and warped reality that is Heroic Scale Miniatures.

In the fluff, I'd imagine that Rhinos and Predators were made to Astartes scale. So a Rhino would be larger than a Leman Russ operated by a Guard unit.

I agree with what's been said before, that Space marine tank crews remove their packs in favor of an interface. You can see in on landspeeders, too. And really, the space issue isn;t any worse than the age-old argument about the 10-man capacity of Rhinos.

I do believe the fluff for Predators back in Rogue Trader era had the crews sealed in in some/all situations.

The Rhino design and its Predator variation are based on a vehicle which was originally invented for ordinary human colonists - so I would assume that, yes, it would be very cramped for a seven foot tall lump of muscle in a suit of bulky armour. That being said, perhaps futurespace technology allows the vehicle's own motor and other mechanical components to not take up as much internal space as is the case with current tanks, somewhat alleviating the issue.

I also agree with the comment about the drivers not wearing their backpacks (very good information regarding the models! it's nice to see this represented) - I've recently read about how a Rhino has connectors allowing the backback patteries of its Astartes and Sororitas passengers to recharge, so there's no reason to assume that the same kind of interface could not be used to power the suit directly. I imagine it would be nigh-impossible to properly sit down with the backpack ... but if they had to get out of the vehicle, for example when it is damaged or destroyed, perhaps they can don a reserve backpack that is stored somewhere in the back?

Tower75 wrote:And, which company supplies the crews?

According to White Dwarf and the 2E Codex Ultramarines, the Reserve Companies. But as with all fluff, there may be deviating information regarding such a rather elusive minor detail. The closer you look at something, the more likely it is that someone had a different idea.

Nothing in the game is really to scale. Don't worry so much about the size of the models. Look how gigantic Catachans are, lol.

Just assume that the Rhinos are big enough to hold all of the Marines inside without some kind of crazy logistical pre-packing, lol.

And, which company supplies the crews?

Nobody really knows. In the old days, it was the Reserve Companies.

Then some of us did the math, and with all the different vehicles in a Chapter's Armory, it takes around 500 Marines to crew all of them, lol. It took well over 400 to crew the ones listed in C:SM3E back in 1999, and Games Workshop keeps adding more vehicles.

So the Reserve Companies quite literally cannot be the source of the vehicle crews because otherwise they wouldn't be Reserve Companies at all.

Don't think too hard about the logistics.

Or we could accept that, exactly as White Dwarf fluff tells us, a Space Marine strike force deploys with what it needs for a mission, rather than everything it has.

Just like they do it with the Landspeeders which are piloted by Assault Marines (who arguably cannot act as jump troops simultaneously then), or how their Devastators do not only have access to a single heavy weapon in the armoury, or how the Veteran Marines from the 1st Company do not surrender their normal power armour just because they can now also deploy as Termies.

I always thought that marines either wore a "Cut down" version of their armor, went with simple clothing or the tanks are too small. As for the Commanders, I assumed that they just got out of the tank, climbed on top and just sat down in the turret. Still doesn't make much sense but this is the Imperium we are talking about.

As for the crews, I also thought that the crews didn't count towards the "Thousand marines per chapter" count. Perhaps the "Thousand marine" thing only counts enlisted fighting men since even going by GW's rosters for chapters that are clearly more than a thousand marines.

I love the way that astartes ultra is 500+ marines over the codex when you consider crew.Calgar is a terrible smurf for having more then 1000 marines.

GW has actually published a very detailed breakdown of the Ultramarines Chapter at 999.M41.

Chapter Command: 29 incl. Honour Guard
Armoury: 28 Techmarines
Apothecarion: 13 Apothecaries
Librarius: 25 Librarians, 3 Acolytes
Reclusiam: 11 Chaplains
Battle Companies: 502
Reserves: 404
Scouts: 101? (estimate, exact number of Scouts not provided)
----
Total: ca. 1113 Astartes, including the Supernumaries that are not counted against the 1k warrior limit (but not counting Dreadnoughts and Chapter Serfs)

They are currently also selling the entire Chapter on their website. Feel free to count:
If people wish to simply prefer other ideas to the Codex fluff that is, of course, just as well - given how the franchise works, every interpretation is just as valid as another, including from the fans. But I think it would be unfair to accuse GW of not thinking it through when they clearly did, and it's just some fans ignoring the studio material.

 Lynata wrote:
Or we could accept that, exactly as White Dwarf fluff tells us, a Space Marine strike force deploys with what it needs for a mission, rather than everything it has.

Do you listen to everything GW tells you?

Sure. Just like other people prefer a novel, or FFG's RPGs, or some videogame. We all have our favourite sources.

I guess it's because GW's books were the ones I got to learn the setting with, so why should I discard what they told me? Might just as well start talking about female Space Marines or the Imperial Guard suddenly stopping to use wave tactics because they care so much for human lives.

And now I have visions of the Rhino hatch opening and space marines bursting out like one of those cans full of snakes you give as a practical joke... The only reason the Land Raider is an assault vehicle is because the ramp is pointed forward so the people inside can take advantage of the momentum!

Seriously though, just in case anybody actually cares, I once did some very rough estimation of the Tau vehicles using the little turret observer guy compared to a normal fire warrior and decided that they should be about 30% bigger than they actually are (in general, obviously the gun drones would need to stay the same size, so some adjusting of proportions would have to happen). I'm almost certain that goes for our crisis suits too...otherwise we run into the incredibly awkward position of not having enough space inside the torso for the pilot unless he's curled up in a little ball and controlling the suit by mind impulse or something.

And, for a space marine relevant piece of conversation, it's obvious that guy in the picture a few posts up never actually goes inside the tank. He's just socketed in the turret and sits there dramatically for the entire battle. It's a long story...once the sensing ausepx broke at exactly the wrong moment which lead to a mis-targeted shot burning off Guilliman's hair and ever scene then it's been standard Codex astartes policy that a visual observer has to be outside the tank at all times during combat situations.

 dementedwombat wrote:
And now I have visions of the Rhino hatch opening and space marines bursting out like one of those cans full of snakes you give as a practical joke... The only reason the Land Raider is an assault vehicle is because the ramp is pointed forward so the people inside can take advantage of the momentum!

Seriously though, just in case anybody actually cares, I once did some very rough estimation of the Tau vehicles using the little turret observer guy compared to a normal fire warrior and decided that they should be about 30% bigger than they actually are (in general, obviously the gun drones would need to stay the same size, so some adjusting of proportions would have to happen). I'm almost certain that goes for our crisis suits too...otherwise we run into the incredibly awkward position of not having enough space inside the torso for the pilot unless he's curled up in a little ball and controlling the suit by mind impulse or something.

And, for a space marine relevant piece of conversation, it's obvious that guy in the picture a few posts up never actually goes inside the tank. He's just socketed in the turret and sits there dramatically for the entire battle. It's a long story...once the sensing ausepx broke at exactly the wrong moment which lead to a mis-targeted shot burning off Guilliman's hair and ever scene then it's been standard Codex astartes policy that a visual observer has to be outside the tank at all times during combat situations.

Land Raiders are fairly stupidly designed, or at least some of them are. I don't intend to make this mistake.



This is a poorly outfitted land raider crusader. The bolters are behind the flank doors. Should any Astartes inside decide to exit the flank, the gun is either forced to stop covering fire or accidentally shoot Ultramarine Joe to pieces and waste a boatload of resources required to elevate Joe to the level of an Astartes and the resources to outfit a new Astartes. Nice job smurfs.
(Mind you, that's from the GW catalog.)



This is the proper way your land raider should be outfitted. Troops can use the more advised flank doors while the bolters can continue to provide covering fire while they exit, with friendly fire not being an issue.

The multi-melta is still in the wrong spot, though.

"Just poppin' up for a look"
*Fzzzzzh!*
"..."

"Uh... commander?"

 Tower75 wrote:

Sienisoturi wrote:
This is just speculation but I think that the tank could be commnded by a space maruine but the rest of the crew could be normal humans/serfs.

That would also make sense. But then, an Astartes would have to work with a mere mortal, and the shame caused by having to even talk to a mortal would probably cause said Astartes to take a 200 years penitent crusade.

I don't recall Astartes being shunned for speaking to a mortal in any chapter at all, then again it could just be that it's really dickish chapter... but should the crew be made up of the chapter surfs, the communication shouldn't even be a concern, IIRC the surfs are treated almost equally in the chapter, and are confirmed somewhere that they man the chapter fleets.

 Lynata wrote:
GW has actually published a very detailed breakdown of the Ultramarines Chapter at 999.M41.

Chapter Command: 29 incl. Honour Guard
Armoury: 28 Techmarines
Apothecarion: 13 Apothecaries
Librarius: 25 Librarians, 3 Acolytes
Reclusiam: 11 Chaplains
Battle Companies: 502
Reserves: 404
Scouts: 101? (estimate, exact number of Scouts not provided)
----
Total: ca. 1113 Astartes, including the Supernumaries that are not counted against the 1k warrior limit (but not counting Dreadnoughts and Chapter Serfs)

They are currently also selling the entire Chapter on their website. Feel free to count:

Spoiler:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440161a&prodId=prod2160196a

.

Wait, if that's the whole Ultramarines Chapter, where are my 28 Techmarines, 25 librarians plus acolytes, and all of my vehicles (with crew, as the 3rd Ed Space Marine codex says)?

Wait, you mean what Games Workshop is selling isn't the entire Ultramarines Chapter? Even by your own numbers? It's just a gimmick product on a website? Those lying rat bastards.