Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay why do Feminists who support the equal treatment(rights etc.) of women not call themselves as Equalists or Humanists? Because Feminist has a negative connotation.

I was talking to a girl about it and she calls herself a feminist, but I asked her that, and she couldn't answer me at all. She stood their goaking and no idea how to answer it.

Because why not have the equal treatment of both men and women? Instead of dividing a line between the two sexes.

Of Course I am just saying this as a person from the outside who sees unequal treatment of sexes. Where men are treated badly in certain situations, but woman are treated better. But then in certain situations a woman is treated terribly, and a man is allowed to go through it without punishment and is congratulated (mainly sex).

Why wouldn't a Feminist who supports both sexes being completely equal call themselves a Humanist or an Equalist? Because according to wikipedia and many other sources those are accepted terms that people can identify with.

Just a Question that I would like to see a reasonable discussion coming from.

Probably because the means by which they seek to achieve equality is primarily by improving the lot of women so that they can become equal to men. I.E. "We seek to improve the feminine, therefore we are feminist."

I'm sure I'm not the first who will point out that many feminists also argue for ways our current society and sexism harms men as well as women.

I will agree though that Feminist is regarded often as a dirty word, but that problem isn't necessarily fixed by adopting a new monicker. Equalist and humanist suggest other things a bit broader than what a feminist might themselves pursue. YOu could consider a feminist someone focused on a particular aspect of equality, rather than equality in general.

 LordofHats wrote:
Probably because the means by which they seek to achieve equality is primarily by improving the lot of women so that they can become equal to men. I.E. "We seek to improve the feminine, therefore we are feminist."

I'm sure I'm not the first who will point out that many feminists also argue for ways our current society and sexism harms men as well as women.

I will agree though that Feminist is regarded often as a dirty word, but that problem isn't necessarily fixed by adopting a new monicker. Equalist and humanist suggest other things a bit broader than what a feminist might themselves pursue. YOu could consider a feminist someone focused on a particular aspect of equality, rather than equality in general.

Oh so the culture has to be changed first then with time they will probably change to it when both are treated with scrutiny.

Because it isn't about equality really.

Classical Feminism was great as it broke down the stereotypes. (women in kitchen, men are breadwinners, etc...)

Modern Feminism as so many facet to the movement, it's hard to keep track. Lately it's about wanted to be equal, sneakual in everything.

*shrugs*

Problems is this... Women and Men will ALWAYS be different, and everyone seems to lose sight of that.

Because not all of them are equalists, true equalists would probably call themselves that instead and try to improve equality among more groups.

I view them much like animal rights activists, some actually try to bring about better treatment for them while others quite easily take it too far and miss the point a bit.

 whembly wrote:
Because it isn't about equality really.

Classical Feminism was great as it broke down the stereotypes. (women in kitchen, men are breadwinners, etc...)

Modern Feminism as so many facet to the movement, it's hard to keep track. Lately it's about wanted to be equal, sneakual in everything.

*shrugs*

Problems is this... Women and Men will ALWAYS be different, and everyone seems to lose sight of that.

But only physically and in some ways mentally. But if you taught a girl guy customs, and a guy girl customs you could break the stigmas.

And yeah I have noticed that quite a bit with the Revolutionary Feminists in Particular

Because they dont always want equality, they want women to have more advantages then given to men, like more maternity leave and so forth.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Because it isn't about equality really.

Classical Feminism was great as it broke down the stereotypes. (women in kitchen, men are breadwinners, etc...)

Modern Feminism as so many facet to the movement, it's hard to keep track. Lately it's about wanted to be equal, sneakual in everything.

*shrugs*

Problems is this... Women and Men will ALWAYS be different, and everyone seems to lose sight of that.

But only physically and in some ways mentally. But if you taught a girl guy customs, and a guy girl customs you could break the stigmas.

And yeah I have noticed that quite a bit with the Revolutionary Feminists in Particular

I'm not sure I follow... are you disagreeing with me?

Sure, there will be outliers on both sexes that breaks conventional norms. But, the fact of the matter, most Men think/act differently compared to women and vice versa. Both sexes have different agendas (for the lack of better term). That's a biological fact and there's numerous studies supporting that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Because they dont always want equality, they want women to have more advantages then given to men, like more maternity leave and so forth.

Not sure I'd agree that...

Maybe because I don't have an issue with Maternity leave...

I would agree "equalists" has a better ring to it.

Google, on the other hand, has a much sexier idea in mind.

 whembly wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Because it isn't about equality really.

Classical Feminism was great as it broke down the stereotypes. (women in kitchen, men are breadwinners, etc...)

Modern Feminism as so many facet to the movement, it's hard to keep track. Lately it's about wanted to be equal, sneakual in everything.

*shrugs*

Problems is this... Women and Men will ALWAYS be different, and everyone seems to lose sight of that.

But only physically and in some ways mentally. But if you taught a girl guy customs, and a guy girl customs you could break the stigmas.

And yeah I have noticed that quite a bit with the Revolutionary Feminists in Particular

I'm not sure I follow... are you disagreeing with me?

Sure, there will be outliers on both sexes that breaks conventional norms. But, the fact of the matter, most Men think/act differently compared to women and vice versa. Both sexes have different agendas (for the lack of better term). That's a biological fact and there's numerous studies supporting that.

I am agreeing to certain things but disagreeing with other points. There are some who break the stigma but that is an astronomically low amount of people that actually do. Mostly due to the fact that people are given that at a low age.

But thanks guys. That actually answers my sentiment. But I still would rather see a girl call themselves as an equalist more than a Feminist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
I would agree "equalists" has a better ring to it.

Google, on the other hand, has a much sexier idea in mind.

(quick google search later)

Yeah. If a company isn't giving enough or studies suggest women need more than they are being given normally, I fail to see the problem. Maternity leave isn't really something a man will typical need (though I wouldn't be shocked by the proposal that men should get maternity leave to help their spouses or partners during that time).

If you want to talk about hypocritical feminists, look at the ones who argue women shouldn't be drafted because they're women, but I don't think they're particularly representative of the movement or anyone else really agrees with them.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Okay why do Feminists who support the equal treatment(rights etc.) of women not call themselves as Equalists or Humanists?

Because modern feminism isn't about equality.

 whembly wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Because they dont always want equality, they want women to have more advantages then given to men, like more maternity leave and so forth.

Not sure I'd agree that...

Maybe because I don't have an issue with Maternity leave...

I agree, as is Paternaty leave, But I never see them arguing for that.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I agree, as is Paternaty leave, But I never see them arguing for that.

As Mel has shown me several times, feminists do argue that men should get paternity leave.

I agree with Mel alot, but the militant feminists, who are way to prevalent at my school said child bonding is more important for the mother, and that mothers should get more time off to spend with a child, but not men.
I used to identify as a Feminist, and i can see their struggles(One thing I really want to study for sociology is gender diversification among majors) But Im more of an equalist now, thinking everyone deserves a fair chance, we just are not at a point where everyone can get a fair chance

 LordofHats wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I agree, as is Paternaty leave, But I never see them arguing for that.

As Mel has shown me several times, feminists do argue that men should get paternity leave.

Really?

Because men should be given that.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I agree with Mel alot, but the militant feminists, who are way to prevalent at my school said child bonding is more important for the mother, and that mothers should get more time off to spend with a child, but not men.
I used to identify as a Feminist, and i can see their struggles(One thing I really want to study for sociology is gender diversification among majors) But Im more of an equalist now, thinking everyone deserves a fair chance, we just are not at a point where everyone can get a fair chance

On feminists that believe that way. Really? One parent deserves the kids more? Whats next they believe that girls are the favorite child of god? And that boys should be circumsized?

Wait Sorry I saw that on facebook, a girl posted about that. Least to say I used the block button to its full use.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I agree, as is Paternaty leave, But I never see them arguing for that.

As Mel has shown me several times, feminists do argue that men should get paternity leave.

Really?

Because men should be given that.

Found this on google in a few minutes;

http://feministssa.com/2011/10/31/why-feminists-and-all-men-and-women-should-care-about-paternity-leave/

"Feminists" are called feminists because people are stupid and have a natural inclination to possess "us vs. them" mentalities.

The most ridiculous thing about the term is that the people who associate themselves with it are too dumb to realize how much it actually hurts their efforts. Martin Luther King Jr. didn't call himself an "african-americanist" (though the movement he was primarily involved in was called almost as such), he called himself a civil rights activist. Why? Because caring about all civil injustice will net you far greater sympathy.

I consider myself an "equalist", personally, and that's what I'll refer to myself as. Do I care about the plight of women? That they get paid less, have less opportunities, etc? Yes. Do I care more about the plight of women than I do about the the plight of racial minorities, gays, men who have almost no chance of winning in female-biased custody battles, athletes who get accused of rape by trifling hoes who want to get paid, etc? Hell no I don't. I care about them all pretty much equally.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I agree with Mel alot, but the militant feminists

Lets not do what you're doing here - take the most extreme element of a movement, and pretend they represent the majority.

Anyway I just checked my employee handbook and at least at my job, time off for the birth of a child does't differentiate between men and women.

 Ouze wrote:


Anyway I just checked my employee handbook and at least at my job, time off for the birth of a child does't differentiate between men and women.

Yup... my current job is like that as well.

 Ouze wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I agree with Mel alot, but the militant feminists

Lets not do what you're doing here - take the most extreme element of a movement, and pretend they represent the majority.

Anyway I just checked my employee handbook and at least at my job, time off for the birth of a child does't differentiate between men and women.

You are right, I should know better then that. Still, I will never forget the Feminist egging the pro-lifers at my school

Honestly, I've never bothered to look at what my job's policy is on paternity leave. I wouldn't be shocked if I got none because I'm just a part time employee.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
"Feminists" are called feminists because people are stupid and have a natural inclination to possess "us vs. them" mentalities.

The most ridiculous thing about the term is that the people who associate themselves with it are too dumb to realize how much it actually hurts their efforts. Martin Luther King Jr. didn't call himself an "african-americanist" (though the movement he was primarily involved in was called almost as such), he called himself a civil rights activist. Why? Because caring about all civil injustice will net you far greater sympathy.

I consider myself an "equalist", personally, and that's what I'll refer to myself as. Do I care about the plight of women? That they get paid less, have less opportunities, etc? Yes. Do I care more about the plight of women than I do about the the plight of racial minorities, gays, men who have almost no chance of winning in female-biased custody battles, athletes who get accused of rape by trifling hoes who want to get paid, etc? Hell no I don't. I care about them all pretty much equally.

I like that argument

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Because they dont always want equality, they want women to have more advantages then given to men, like more maternity leave and so forth.

Would it help you to know that mothers who have more maternity leave form deeper, richer bonds with their infants, bonds which would allow the mothers to anticipate and soothe the infants' distress, and thus preventing them from crying so much on airplanes?

I think that is exalt-worthy.

Asherian Command wrote:Okay why do Feminists who support the equal treatment(rights etc.) of women not call themselves as Equalists or Humanists? Because Feminist has a negative connotation.

Answer 1: Because while very similar to "humanist", "feminist" acknowledges a gap in equality.

Answer 2: Because "humanist" is a more broad term that generally includes a form of agnosticism, whereas "feminist" is specific to socially-constructed gender roles. "Feminist" is more of a single-issue voter than "humanist", in other words.

 Ouze wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I agree with Mel alot, but the militant feminists

Lets not do what you're doing here - take the most extreme element of a movement, and pretend they represent the majority.

Anyway I just checked my employee handbook and at least at my job, time off for the birth of a child does't differentiate between men and women.

In here (as in Finland), men get 3 weeks and women 1 month before birth to ... was it 3 months after birth (or 6 can't remember). There is then extra time time that either parent can use after that.

However I can easily see why women need more time certainly around the childbirth due to physiological changes. Never mind the whole feeding issue .

 Asherian Command wrote:
Why wouldn't a Feminist who supports both sexes being completely equal call themselves a Humanist or an Equalist?

Because the vast majority of gender-based inequality, especially large-scale inequality imposed by society as a whole, goes against women, not against men. The title "feminism" is intended to make this clear, instead of pretending that inequality hurts everyone the same way.

 whembly wrote:

 Ouze wrote:


Anyway I just checked my employee handbook and at least at my job, time off for the birth of a child does't differentiate between men and women.

Yup... my current job is like that as well.

I took off 8 weeks for our little one, could have had 16.

Of course the US screws both sexes equally by being the western country with the worst parental leave laws out there.

There already is a movement called Humanists, which is to do with philosophy and secular morality.

Equalist could mean anything -- equal rights for animals, for example. It could also indicate the desire to create equality by dragging men down.

Feminists want to make women equal with men in society by promotion of women, not by degradation of men.

Feminism has a bad reputation among people who use terms like feminazi. They are victims of false consciousness, and their views should be disregarded as irrational.