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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Out of curiosity, was this the first book credited to the "GW Design Team"?

Probably because no one wanted to be attributed to such crap.

Been looking forward to this codex for months. Nids were my first serious army and I've super loved them since I started playing.
That said, I am so crestfallen after this release (read the whole codex last night after work), my nids are getting shelved for good. I don't really see any point in playing them.

They went from being one of the most powerful and versatile psyker armies to being literally the least versatile of all the 6e armies. Every bad unit from fifth is still bad (or worse: see Pyro, Gaunts, Prime, SL). The points increases are insane, and are one of the only changes to the army... they might as well have called this the Tyranid 5e codex: hardback edition!

And I think there's a HUGE nerf that people are missing... Tyranids have cc weapon profiles now. The most unique and cool mechanic of the army is gone. Not only are scything talons total gak, but weapon profiles can't be combined (or used with Smash/AP2 for MCs). No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.

Total bs. My wallet's happy, though. GW won't be getting any more of my money.

Tzadakim wrote:
No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.

OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)

Still they didn't improve much at all because the largest problems is that they still haven't gotten a way to mitigate penalty when charging through terrain....

At least our army still looks the coolest.

 FastusMustachius wrote:
I keep looking through the codex and finding it worse and worse.
The Zoanthropes and many other units have Very Bulky / Bulky in their rulesets despite 'nids having no transports of any kind anymore.
What a sloppy mess of a codice.

The new Red Terror has a ability that doesn't work againt very bulky models so there's that

roxor08 wrote:

Tzadakim wrote:
No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.

OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)

Still they didn't improve much at all because the largest problems is that they still haven't gotten a way to mitigate penalty when charging through terrain....

If they where free that benice but you pay 4 points for scything Talons making themm even more expensife thenn before.

roxor08 wrote:

Tzadakim wrote:
No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.

OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)

Still they didn't improve much at all because the largest problems is that they still haven't gotten a way to mitigate penalty when charging through terrain....

...for an increase of one point per model, yes. So they gain one attack, lose their re-rolls (which, at 2 attacks actually comes to 1/3, not 1/6), Broodlords get a useless psyker power, and more expensive upgrades...? This is a straight nerf to an already underwhelming unit.

My main point was you can't stack weapon profiles anymore, which was the massively unique part of this assault-based army.

Boring, copied, and broken.

 FastusMustachius wrote:
Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.

Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.

barnowl wrote:

 FastusMustachius wrote:
Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.

Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.

Twin Linked Devourers are still 15pts each I thought? The main drop in points for the HT was wings dropping 25 points.

I'm curious what your previous list was that you dropped 300 points. Did you field a bunch of Tyranofexes?

roxor08 wrote:

Tzadakim wrote:
No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.

OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)

Most units this affected actually lost attacks on their profile alongside this change. The overall result is that you either:
a) end up with a useless weapon option if you're not fitting entirely for melee (typically Warriors)
b) pay over the odds for the bonus attack ('stealers)

 xttz wrote:

roxor08 wrote:

Tzadakim wrote:
No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.

OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)

Most units this affected actually lost attacks on their profile alongside this change. The overall result is that you either:
a) end up with a useless weapon option if you're not fitting entirely for melee (typically Warriors)
b) pay over the odds for the bonus attack ('stealers)

Not to mention the math shows that rerolls > +1 attack against everything but stationary vehicles.

barnowl wrote:

 FastusMustachius wrote:
Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.

Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.

Our army list really went down in points.

WE gained lots of points from the flyrants, and the devourers. WE gained lots of points from the 2 dakkafexes.

And we lost a load more £$$%%@@ points from the pods, the ymgarls and the doom that just got fr££%kin vaporised!

Just got the codex - and a virago (lolz).

I stopped playing WH40k back when v5 nid codex came out so I was waiting a lot to get back into all that. Imo the codex is even worst than v5.
I don't understand some of GW's choice with the units : what's with all the unecessary cautiousness ? Why T5 W5 4+ flyings ? T6 W4 3+ was judged too op ? Why so many tervigon nerfs ? Tyranid Prime ? There are no logic behind those choice, at least no logic that I can grasp and I would like some enlightment on all that.

Aside from that, I actually think there might be some possible playable list, with the few units that might be okayish : zoanthropes (3++ saves makes them okay I guess), exocrine, flyrant, venomthropes and some carnifexes (and maybe gargoyles). I see a lot of people saying nids is a CC army at hearth, but in my opinion it's long gone. Since V5 nids is more of a mid range shooty army, even if that sounds ridiculous.


By the way BlaxicanX, you cracked me up with your five stage theory. Exalted !

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 FastusMustachius wrote:
Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.

Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.

Our army list really went down in points.

WE gained lots of points from the flyrants, and the devourers. WE gained lots of points from the 2 dakkafexes.

And we lost a load more £$$%%@@ points from the pods, the ymgarls and the doom that just got fr££%kin vaporised!

True story. I'm not shelving my Nids, or anything stupid like that. I'll adapt. But this codex is lazy ( I have mine now and have read it) and limited. I have 15 models, all conversions, that I can no longer use, 13 of which where in my last army. Sad, sad day for converters. This just feels limited. HQ, FA, and Elites are full of units that are a clear "no" and one unit each that is good. Troops and Heavy are the only slots that merit choices. Heavy because there are actually multiple units worth taking, Troops because there are no real standout units. Tervigons maybe, but the huge debuff they took makes them seem unattractive. Still, I have to look at them in a vacuum. I know it's worse than before, that doesn't mean it's bad. So, take Flyrants, Gargoyles and Venomthropes. Pick your poison with troops, and then splurge on our excellent Heavy Support choices. Really, they are the new Elites.

 streamdragon wrote:

 xttz wrote:

roxor08 wrote:

Tzadakim wrote:
No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.

OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)

Most units this affected actually lost attacks on their profile alongside this change. The overall result is that you either:
a) end up with a useless weapon option if you're not fitting entirely for melee (typically Warriors)
b) pay over the odds for the bonus attack ('stealers)

Not to mention the math shows that rerolls > +1 attack against everything but stationary vehicles.

Really? Whoops. I must have done my math wrong. Sorry!!!

roxor08 wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 xttz wrote:

roxor08 wrote:

Tzadakim wrote:
No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.

OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)

Most units this affected actually lost attacks on their profile alongside this change. The overall result is that you either:
a) end up with a useless weapon option if you're not fitting entirely for melee (typically Warriors)
b) pay over the odds for the bonus attack ('stealers)

Not to mention the math shows that rerolls > +1 attack against everything but stationary vehicles.

Really? Whoops. I must have done my math wrong. Sorry!!!

ack, no, my fault. I was thinking of trygons who got to reroll all misses instead of just ones. Not sure of the math for Stealers, but Horms definitely lost out since they can only have one set.

2A at WS6 with old ST:
2/3 chance to hit in majority of circumstances
1/6 chance to miss
1/6 chance to re-roll (with another 2/3 chance to hit)
Comes out to 7/9 probability for each attack.
Which means it's (approx) a 77.7% chance to hit with one attack, and 60.5% chance to hit with both.

3A at WS6 with new ST:
2/3 chance to hit
1/3 chance to miss
This comes to a 66.6% chance to hit with one, 44% chance to hit with two, and only a 22.2% chance to hit with all three.

With the increased point cost (1pt/model, if you take all the upgrades. Because of course. Or 2 points more if you only take ST), and the seemingly reduced accuracy... nerf.
Oh, and the numbers only get worse as the target's WS goes up. Yay!

 DarthSpader wrote:
if the above is true, and im not missing anything critical, - like the exocrine/hausprex thing ising totally BAMF, (i assume its a T6/6W/3+ ?)

Well the Haruspex gets loads of extra attacks when it kills things. But only on the charge. Normally it gets just 3 attacks. At WS3. It'll get swarmed by a big unit and just spend the rest of the game killing Guardsmen/Boys and things like that. Not Gaunts though. Gaunts will run away or eat themselves first.

Tzadakim wrote:
Been looking forward to this codex for months. Nids were my first serious army and I've super loved them since I started playing.
That said, I am so crestfallen after this release (read the whole codex last night after work), my nids are getting shelved for good. I don't really see any point in playing them.

You don't see a point in, you know... having fun? By just playing? Oh wait- I almost forgot: The only fun part about Warhammer 40k is winning games!

Sick of all this talk of "shelving my army" and so forth. Learn to adapt a bit, build some fun lists, and enjoy the game for what it is.

"Don't you want to have fun" is such an inane counter-argument. Of course everyone wants to have fun, but that "argument" doesn't actually counter the point that the book is terrible. The desire to have fun won't change how good a book is.

 HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
Sick of all this talk of "shelving my army" and so forth. Learn to adapt a bit, build some fun lists, and enjoy the game for what it is.

Then dont read the forum, particularly a thread named "..boycott a terrible product>"

Its really not that hard..

Take all the money you would have spent on Tyranids and buy the starter set for another miniature game. There are many out there that take game balance very seriously.

If you still feel like playing Tyranids after a month or two on another game system, then buy it all then. At least by that point, you'll be able to look at it all objectively, and there will be more information about how good they are.

I wonder, I wonder I wonder...

Could it be that this codex has been intentionally rendered bland in order to produce several colorful and 'winning' codex supplements for hive fleets?

You need the codex plus the codex supplement to run one of those armies, whereas just running the main codex army just requires the main book. If the 'codex: hive fleet toadballs' is really full of bells and whistles, then all the nid players will rush to buy it and the codex... Double yer money! Perhaps that's where all the booty's hidden! In the specialized codex supplements following.

 streamdragon wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 FastusMustachius wrote:
Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.

Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.

Twin Linked Devourers are still 15pts each I thought? The main drop in points for the HT was wings dropping 25 points.

I'm curious what your previous list was that you dropped 300 points. Did you field a bunch of Tyranofexes?

I still run most of a 3e/4e built army in local tourneys as it happens to be the only fully painted one I have. Locally the list keeps me squarely middle of the pack on the performance curve. Only Unit that did not drop in cost as the Genestealers which stayed at 300 points. The Broodlord did not actually go up in price, just rolled the stealer cost in with the upgrade cost. Here is the list as it is now after losing the ymgral. And I did miss the math alittle, the 300 (319 total) include the 138 for the ymgral.

HQ: 430
Flyrant (2xscyths)200 -
Prime (Deathspitter)130 -
2 Tyrant Guard 100-

Elite 150
1 Zoanthrope 50-
1 Zoanthrope 50-
1 Zoanthrope 50-

Troops 656
20 Hormie 100-
23 Termie 92-
16 Spinie 64-
17 stealers +1 Broodlord 300-
3 Warriors (2x2 scyths, 1 VC) 100-

Fast: 295
5 Shrike (rending) 175-
3 raveners (Deathspitter) 120-

Heavy: 150
1 Dakkafex (2x TL Devouers) 150-

Not a killer list, but with the Biomancy , TK and TP, I usually had 5++ save on charging hormies, Iron arm on a Zoanthrope, Broodlord normally got something useful, Flyrant had Smite + something normally Endurance or Iron Arm. Ran Prime as warlord and midfeild synapse anchor attached to Tyrant Guard.

Adding the SK Carnie back in to the list, and and debating what to add for the last 174 points.

Well, the sky is not falling, but the biggest complaint really is that many of the units that had problems in the last book, still have problems (raveners, stealers, warriors, etc.).

A few things did drop in points, so that is good, but somethings, when you finish building them as before are the same or more.

I think there will be some builds we can make from it, but my friend (who also plays eldar and marines) summed it up the best...

"With the marine/eldar books, the task was picking which cool option or exciting build I wanted to try (what chapter, what kind of list, etc.)....in the nid book, the task if finding one I would want to..."

Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.

 Lobukia wrote:
Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.

You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.

Fragile wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.

You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.

What codex has more than 2 truly viable tourney builds?

 Lobukia wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.

You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.

What codex has more than 2 truly viable tourney builds?

Tournament, most of them.

Fragile wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.

You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.

Pretty much this. We've lost options coming into the new codex, I feel like this is the thousandth time I've said it. Nobody will feel silly when Tyranids start winning (which I doubt but whatever). We could take home 1st 2nd and 3rd each tourney and it wouldn't change how crap this codex is in comparison to the last one.

Unlike powergamers, the Nid customerbase is one who deliberately picked an underpowered army, the competitive strength of this armies monobuild is not relevant of us. We merely want the tools we had to play with in the last codex to make a return.

Fragile wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.

You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.

What codex has more than 2 truly viable tourney builds?

Tournament, most of them.

Really?

Chaos Marines, maybe two
Daemons, again maybe two
DA.... moving on
Eldar, 2
DE, as an ally, 1
GK, with inquisition out, it's not even an ally
Crons, maybe maybe two
Tau, 2
SM, what besides bikes?
BA...
SW great ally
Orks, the occasional meta bust
IG, 2 and one heavily leans on allies

I'm sure I've left someone out. But if looking at having a chance at top ten-ish finish Nids might be the only thing that reliably can bring down an up and running 2++, can make riptides quake in fear, and can put an awesome shooting/CC platform out in mass (hello dakkafex).