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2014/01/13 10:12:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Deshkar wrote: If you wanna do a flying circuses, would it be interesting to run double Tyrannofexes with AG, Acid and Beetles? They will hit their torrent flamer on turn two as well, especially if you can get Onslaught on them. 5 FMCs, + 2 T6 2+ MC w fleet and torrent on turn two, is interesting.
This could be an interesting list. How many points do you plan to play?
1850.
If I wanna tool the Circus list to be even more extreme and gamble I'm kinda interested to see Tyrannofexes pacing with the flying brood.
2x Flyrant
Zoey
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
30 Termagants
1 Terivgon
2x Crone
1x Harpy
2x Biovore
2x Tyrannofex w AG Acid Maw/Beetles
1840
Though, if you wanna drop the Tervigon, you can add 2 warriors brood for a total of 5 scoring and 6 synapses.
Turn 1 Shrouded protection. Turn 2 in the opponent fase, kill his troops deny and maybe score a little with ur gribbles.
Just entertaining the thought, LOL.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/13 10:13:45
for the emperor
2014/01/13 10:13:09
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Deshkar wrote: If you wanna do a flying circuses, would it be interesting to run double Tyrannofexes with AG, Acid and Beetles? They will hit their torrent flamer on turn two as well, especially if you can get Onslaught on them. 5 FMCs, + 2 T6 2+ MC w fleet and torrent on turn two, is interesting.
This could be an interesting list. How many points do you plan to play?
1850.
If I wanna tool the Circus list to be even more extreme and gamble I'm kinda interested to see Tyrannofexes pacing with the flying brood.
2x Flyrant
Zoey
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
30 Termagants
1 Terivgon
2x Crone
1x Harpy
2x Biovore
2x Tyrannofex w AG Acid Maw/Beetles
1840
Though, if you wanna drop the Tervigon, you can add 2 warriors brood for a total of 5 scoring and 6 synapses.
Turn 1 Shrouded protection. Turn 2 in the opponent fase, kill his troops deny and maybe score a little with ur gribbles.
Just entertaining the thought, LOL.
how do trannofexs move far enough to be in their face turn 2? im not seeing this...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/13 10:26:08
I just really like the thought of using a Mawloc to disrupt their back line then same turn pop up a tevigon or two as close as I can.
I'm thinking something like this at 2k:
HQ Flying Tyrant with wings, hive commander
Flying Tyrant with wings, hive commander
Elite Zoanthrope * 2
Venomthrope * 2
Troop Tervigon
Tervigon
Gants * 30
Gants * 30
Fast Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Gargoyles * 20
Heavy Mawloc
Exocrine
Total 2000
I don't want the Tervigons anywhere near the gants for obvious reasons, the Zoes will provide back line Synapse and the group will be shrouded by the Venomthropes while hiding in cover. The Exocrine advances, its just a big bull's eye to buy me some time. If he doesn't have any significant anti air the crones start on the board, otherwise I try to take it out turn one or at least disrupt it. Gargoyles are a shield as always.
2014/01/13 11:09:51
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Has anyone given this idea a though?
Hive Tyrant with synapse relic( what ever that's called)
then roll your 2 powers which ever is less useful swap for dominion.
With a little luck pick up syapse warlord trait.
Not saying it would be highly effective but a 24-30" synapse range is massive. It turns your tyrant into the most important target in your army unfortunately but your synapse range is solid for hopefully a couple turns in which you could get many units into combat to prevent failing synapse. Is this legal via the codex. I don't have the dex yet so I don't actually know.
Also spinegants vs standard gants. tough choice. either 30 TL S3 shots or 30 S4 ap 5 shots. Honestly doesn't the math come out equal against MEQ and GEQ. If only GW had the kindness in their hearts to grant poison on shooting attacks via toxin sacs. Imagine devilgants with poison. Please do point out if my math or rules are wrong.
dmthomas7 wrote: Has anyone given this idea a though?
Hive Tyrant with synapse relic( what ever that's called)
then roll your 2 powers which ever is less useful swap for dominion.
With a little luck pick up syapse warlord trait.
Not saying it would be highly effective but a 24-30" synapse range is massive. It turns your tyrant into the most important target in your army unfortunately but your synapse range is solid for hopefully a couple turns in which you could get many units into combat to prevent failing synapse. Is this legal via the codex. I don't have the dex yet so I don't actually know.
Also spinegants vs standard gants. tough choice. either 30 TL S3 shots or 30 S4 ap 5 shots. Honestly doesn't the math come out equal against MEQ and GEQ. If only GW had the kindness in their hearts to grant poison on shooting attacks via toxin sacs. Imagine devilgants with poison. Please do point out if my math or rules are wrong.
I don't have the codex on hand with me, but aren't Spinefists also AP 5? I would think 30 TL shots would be more effective then 30 S4 shots since you should be hitting more with the TL.
2014/01/13 12:33:55
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
dmthomas7 wrote: Has anyone given this idea a though?
Hive Tyrant with synapse relic( what ever that's called)
then roll your 2 powers which ever is less useful swap for dominion.
With a little luck pick up syapse warlord trait.
Not saying it would be highly effective but a 24-30" synapse range is massive. It turns your tyrant into the most important target in your army unfortunately but your synapse range is solid for hopefully a couple turns in which you could get many units into combat to prevent failing synapse. Is this legal via the codex. I don't have the dex yet so I don't actually know.
Also spinegants vs standard gants. tough choice. either 30 TL S3 shots or 30 S4 ap 5 shots. Honestly doesn't the math come out equal against MEQ and GEQ. If only GW had the kindness in their hearts to grant poison on shooting attacks via toxin sacs. Imagine devilgants with poison. Please do point out if my math or rules are wrong.
TL will land you a few more hits, but less wounds the S4 will be less hits more wounds, but the missing part is spine gants are AP5.. bye bye most infantry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/13 12:35:06
I believe the additional hits outweigh the increased chance to wound.
Against T3, you get 0.375 Spine-Wounds compared to 0.33 Borer-Wounds.
Against T4, both weapons churn out 0.25.
Against T5, you get 0.17 Borers to 0.125 Spines
Against T6, you get 0.83 Borers to 0.125 Spines.
Therefore the Spinefists churn out more damage against T1-T3 and T6. Fleshborers win on T5 and T7, where the Spines become redundant. Against T4 both are equal.
I would say that you will probably fight more units at T3 and T6, than you will at T5 and T7. However it is worth considering that the Borers can glance AV10 while Spines simply bounce off.
Overall I'd prefer the Spinefists but Fleshborers absolutely have a place. Honestly I'd just go for what looks nicer..
WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
2014/01/13 13:34:51
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
jifel wrote: 3x3 Warriors is actually a solid investment in troops. Totally self-sufficient and reasonably tough. They were overshadowed before, but now I can see their uses. Maybe even units of 4 so that a Large blast (Riptide) can never hit the whole unit.
Personally, I'd field at least 1 tervigon and probably no more than 1x3 warriors. For their price (the warriors), you can get 2x10+ termagants. I'd rather have the quantity in troops.
Badablack wrote: I watched a few games tonight with a Nid player using the new codex against a few lists. One was against a pretty decent grey knights player with what I've heard is a strong list. Lots of vehicles, dreadknights, Stormravens, etc. The Nid player took Deathleaper, a few Exocrines, and the flyer along with Zoanthropes and I think warrior broods.
Granted the GK player hadn't really studied up on the new codex and planned ahead or whatever, but he was absolutely demolished. The Exocrines and Zoanthropes just tore apart his troops, the flyer knocked out his Stormraven, and the rest folded. Grey Knights might just be a bad matchup though what with being a midrange psychic army against a midrange anti-psychic army.
Next game was against Necrons, and though it was a lot closer, Tyranids won again. Wasn't really paying attention to what the Necron player was running, but it seemed to be mostly wraiths and blocks of infantry backed up by Ghost Arks.
I imagine longer range armies like Eldar, Tau and IG may be harder to manage without major casualties, but as far as the mid-range shooting armies, Tyranids seem to do alright.
IMO, tyranids will do better against smaller, elitist armies. What will be bad matchups for them are armies with massed, ranged firepower. Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guards, Space Wolves and even Crowe-Purifier-spam GK's will give them plenty of problems. The key to beating the bugs is to be able to force a lot of grounding checks on the flyrants/flyers and still have enough firepower to finish them off when they are on the ground.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Being a bit melodramatic aren't we? Non-flying tyrants can still be used, just now 3 tyrant guard are mandatory, not just one and then hope you get Iron Arm for some majority toughness shenanigans (which I never really got since you still only had a 1/3 chance to get iron arm, what happened then if you didn't get it, would you just forfeit the match?)
With that said, you'll need some other way ti protect your tyrant death star, venomthropes come to mind, as well as giving your oppenent other targets to worry about. I've always wondered if it would be viable to run 4 bare bones (or nearly bare bones) hive tyrants in a 2k list. Comes in at 660, 720 if you give them all adrenal glands to make them all faster. Hmmm, I might try running it just for fun...
The walkrant build is dead. Period. The lack of mobility, the loss of 2+ saves and of biomancy, and the 345-pt price tag of dakkarant+3 guards has made this build very inefficient. I can still see a potential use for Swarmlord + tyrant guards as a force-multiplier/counter-assault unit, but I'm not liking the walking dakkarant build in this edition.
However, I think Carnifex spam is doomed to failure. Carnifex still have no viable tools for survival, and you can depend on the venomthropes lasting exactly one turn of enemy shooting. Frequently, one unit of shooting.
Any competent army build will have a ton of Str 6+ AP3 or better shots now. Without any way to drop C-fex in range, they are going to be point sinks and slot sinks that will die easily and in many comical ways.
The carnifex build is very much alive. What remains to be seen is how good they can be. A squad of carnifexes buffed by FNP and protected by a venomthropes for a potential 3+ cover can actually be quite resilient as long as you can hide the venomthrope. Better yet, I would get a bastion, put it as far forwards as possbile, and then move the venomthrope into it. Works not only for carnifex-builds, but any and all tyranid builds.
Badablack wrote: I watched a few games tonight with a Nid player using the new codex against a few lists. One was against a pretty decent grey knights player with what I've heard is a strong list. Lots of vehicles, dreadknights, Stormravens, etc. The Nid player took Deathleaper, a few Exocrines, and the flyer along with Zoanthropes and I think warrior broods.
Granted the GK player hadn't really studied up on the new codex and planned ahead or whatever, but he was absolutely demolished. The Exocrines and Zoanthropes just tore apart his troops, the flyer knocked out his Stormraven, and the rest folded. Grey Knights might just be a bad matchup though what with being a midrange psychic army against a midrange anti-psychic army.
Next game was against Necrons, and though it was a lot closer, Tyranids won again. Wasn't really paying attention to what the Necron player was running, but it seemed to be mostly wraiths and blocks of infantry backed up by Ghost Arks.
I imagine longer range armies like Eldar, Tau and IG may be harder to manage without major casualties, but as far as the mid-range shooting armies, Tyranids seem to do alright.
Make no mistake, Tyranids can win. Its just that we went from one variety of monobuild to a different one.
The only constant I see in a TAC Tyranid build are dual-flyrants and perhaps 1 or 2 venomthropes. As for the rest of the army, well, it could be as different as night-&-day. There's so many units you can run with them - hive guards, zoanthropes, tervigons, raveners, shrikes, exocrines, gargoyles, tyranid flyers, mawlocs, biovores, carnifexes, trygons and tyrannofexes - that it would make for a variety of armies.
Deshkar wrote: After some JY2 advice, tentatively revised to:
1840
8 Monstrous Creatures (3 FMCs)
6 Synaptic Points
4 Troops with ability to spawn more.
Considering dropping the Warrior+Mawlocs for 1 more Terma brood and 2 Exocrines, will have to see how the Mawlocs do first.
-----------------------------------
I'm actually finding it very difficult to go with a balanced list for this codex, it seems to be pushing me towards extreme Nidzilla spam for maximum threat saturation.
Gonna try get some games soon, perhaps tomorrow, really looking forward to see batreps or army lists of how others are approaching this codex.
It's a pretty solid TAC list. A list like this is probably one of the more balanced tyranid lists that you will find. It'll do reasonably well against most of the armies out there.
The only issue I see is against extreme armies like Tau or venom-spam DE. Unfortunately, the normal Tau build is actually extremely shooty (i.e. what Tau players consider normal, other armies consider to be extreme shooting). These are the types of armies that normal tyranid builds will have problems with unless we go with extreme builds ourselves.
In any case, I'd be interested to hear of your experiences with your list.
DarthDiggler wrote: A Flyrant with psychic scream can fly up to a Daemon Prince and hit it with the scream. The Prince will be in shadows range and will make a 2d6+2 leadership check at leadership 6 because of shadows.
A Flyrant with Warp Blast can zoom up 24" to get LOS to a Prince on turn 1 and hit it with a str 10 ap 2 warp blast to instant kill it.
Another great tip! Thanks Darth.
Just make sure that DP you're going up against isn't the one with a re-rollable 2++ save.
Perfect Organism wrote: Looks like there are only a couple of decisions to be made in each FOC slot for competitive tyranid armies...
HQ: One or two Twin-devourer flyrants? If one, do you take the Deathleaper?
Elite: What mix of venomthropes and zoanthropes? How many models in each unit?
Troops: a few big squads of termagants with tervigons or many small squads of termagants? What proportion of your 'gants take devourers?
Fast Attack: How many crones? Do you want some spore mines?
Only Heavy Support feels like you have a bunch of real options to choose between.
There's actually more than that. Hive guards are still useful even if they got nerfed slightly. Tyranid warriors are still a viable choice both as a scoring unit and as a source for synapse. Gargoyles are still great due to the fact that they got the Blind rule. Shrikes and raveners are fast threats that can complement the dual-flyrant build. But from early impressions. yeah, most TAC tyranid builds should contain the units that you summarized.
Pertruabo wrote: Hi guys
New to Tyranids here.After I heard about the rumor that new Tyranid will be released,I have a spark in myself and I began collection old school nids (From the Tick-head zoans,to the old Warriors,and Screamer Carnifex) Sooo,how do I keep up with the new release,From what I have read in the Codex the Haruspex is a nice unit.Any tips on starting Tyranids with the new Codex?
Thanks!
Yeah, check out my thoughts on some of the units on p.1 of this thread for units that I feel have improved or are worth considering for a balanced Tyranid army in this edition.
Enceladus wrote: I actually think Genestealers will find some use if the new dataslate is as rumoured. I'll be infiltrating them with a Broodlord and pinning whatever I can set my sights on!
Genestealers are the same in this edition as they were in last. So for the people who liked and ran them before, I don't see a reason why you would stop doing so in this edition.
Four squads of hormaguants maxed out numbers. (120 models)
2 squads of 20 gargoyles.
Trygon prime with whatever
This is around 1850. Crap tons of synapse. Table is covered in models with move thru cover and jump infantry that WILL blind most your army on turn two. Terrifying.
That is definitely a viable army, though you may have problems against mech-builds. I'm going to call it the Tyranid Horde army.
Noctem wrote: I don't think any army in Warhammer 40k has a codex where every single unit his viable and competitive... so you must be pretty unhappy with things as a whole!
Telling a new player to not start nids at all because of the new codex is silly... if they like the army and how they look, they should play them regardless of it being a competitive codex or not.
There were definitely many uncalled for nerfs and I agree that many of them upset me, but I'm still going to play the game and enjoy the army I got.
If you're really playing it just for fun, then I don't see how ALL your fun has disappeared with this codex. You should easily be able to take on your opponents army if they are playing just for fun as well and not running a tourny competitive army!
Well said!
I always encourage people to play an army that they like. Now what they like could be many different things. Maybe what they like are the models or maybe they are into the fluff. For some, it could be the play-style of an alien horde that may appeal to them. Finally, there are those who just want to play the most competitive army available. If you'd ask me if tyranids were a very competitive army, honestly, I'd tell you that they are probably an upper mid-tier army at best.
But if you ask me whether you should play tyranids, I'd tell you that it is a fun and challenging army to play, with lots of big monsters and lots of little ones as well. If that type of army/play-style appeals to you, then go ahead and give it a try. But I will NEVER tell a newer player not to play an army just because I don't think the codex is that great.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/13 16:44:20
Looky Likey wrote: Is there going to be a golden ratio for how much synapse is enough to prevent a collapse?
What do people think of the Hive Commander power now? Outflanking Tevigons anybody?
I disagree. A unit of Devilgaunts turning up on your opponent's flank is a godsend. Causes plenty of damage and forces your opponent to split his fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/13 17:14:59
Hive commander might actually be worth it now that most of our damage dealers are forced to walk across the board. Having two outflanking units (devilgaunts, or maybe even warriors with deathspitters/venom cannon to threaten the rear armor of vehicles) might be enough to convince your opponent to stick to the middle of the board rather than castle up in a corner.
2014/01/13 17:08:53
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Place ADL mid table and infiltrate all 80 stealers behind it. First turn go to ground outside sinapde for 2++. Next turn fly HT within synapse to auto correct from pinning. The zoies + HT all fish for catalyst. I know it's far from ideal but would be a funny as hell to spring 80 "bad" stealers on your opponent
Leth wrote: You know for the trygon tunnel you dont have to declare anymore right? Any infantry unit that came from reserve that turn can opt to use the tunnel, so basically the trygon provides an extra board edge. Might even work for outflankers as well(potentially deep strikers) so it provides options.
That does make it slightly more useful, though I don't believe you can consider it to be a board edge for outflankers.
In any case, the trygon got nerfed but only slightly. It you liked running him in the previous edition, then I don't see that changing too much in this edition. He is still a decent buy for the points, even without the re-rolls to hit in combat.
Niiai wrote: How can you reliably spam psychic casters? 2 Tyrants and one group of zoantropes for instance will give your army a good chance to get the feel no pain power. If the tyrants are both eather flying or ground models you can give them both feel no pain. Seems funn to me. But that is lickly the only reliable p. power.
They can do it with zoans. My recommended configuration is 2 flyrants, 2x1 zoans and 1 tervigon for 5 psykers in my normal list. Definitely a decent chance to get Catalyst.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Okay Jy2 someone just pointed this post out to me and I was instantly interested in what you had to say on the subject, so here are my thoughts point by point...
Spoiler:
- Tyranid Psychic Powers: You're right, they aren't BAD but they aren't that great. The problem is a lot of them are entirely situational and due to the random nature of 6th powers makes them problematic. With the old codex I could reliably get at least one power on my Tervigons that would be useful. Or the Swarmlord would absolutely get one or two useful powers. Now I am hoping that I wont roll crap from the list on my Flyrant because he only get's two powers, there is a good chance he will get something that isn't useful at all.
-Regeneration: More reliable and overall I like it a bit more than the old regeneration. Old regeneration had the potential for a ridiculous amount of 6's every turn, but over all this new regeneration IS better.
-Melee Weapons: All around worse. Most profiles had an attack subtracted to "compensate" for this new buff and now they don't stack anymore. Most of the weapons got worse like Scything Talons and Boneswords. Tails are...interesting but they do not benefit from Smash, much like HoW so they are underwhelming in their potential but at the same time aren't entirely worthless.
HQs:
I feel that this slot was forever doomed to Flyrant territory. Primes went up drastically in points with no return. Tervigons are worth it as troops but as an HQ they are terrible. OOE is still bad, I will still run him because I love him, but make no mistake he is bad. Deathleaper...has potential to play, but he will have to be backed with a Flyrant. Tyrand Guard are decent BUT why run them? You going to run a walking Tyrant JUST for them?
Troops:
The weak spot of the codex. Warriors are relegated to back field objective holders, perferably out of LOS. Genestealers are bad as always. Hormagaunts cost the same due to biomorph increases and were never that great to begin with. Termagants are decent enough. Tervigons, despite the nerfs, are still totally worth running as a troop choice. Rippers may as well not exist, as always. Troops is filled with poor choices with a couple of mediocre choices, pick your poison because none of them are really inspiring confidence.
Elites:
How the might have fallen here....Venomthropes escaped mostly unharmed and even better, hurray! I will fill my elites with 3x1 Squads of Venomthropes to cover the board in shroud. Lictors still bad. Zoanthropes are...I don't know, worse but still maybe worth running. They changed enough that I can't make a judgement call without giving them a try. At face value the AP2 and 24" range make them seem less appealing but they MIGHT be worthwhile. Hive Guard to me are dead, same reason I never ran a Tyrannofex. For how many points I am dropping into a unit to miss 50% of their shots with relatively low number of shots they are not worth the points. Pyrovores, need I say more? Haruspex just does not have the hitting power I wish he had. WS3 A3 makes him a dude instantly, he has the fighting power of a Mawloc and no one is taking the Mawloc because of his CC abilities.
I think that Venomthropes are going to define Tyranids this edition, the ability to field them and spread around the shrouded love and screen with masses of gaunts makes getting a 3+ cover save on our MCs so easy. The problem is that most of the current meta can ignore cover.
Fast:
Gargoyles, gargoyles, gargoyles. Raveners, still bad. Harpy, still bad. Crone...I want it to be good but everything is telling me it will under perform every game just because it can only fire two missiles a turn OR fire one missile and vector strike. It is just to weak for what it sets out to do. Spore Mines are great though! Death Leaper with some spore mines? Could be hilarious. Ohh I almost forgot Shrikes, Warriors with a worse armor save. They don't do a whole lot of damage, cost a lot, and die super easy.
Heavy: This is the winning slot for bugs. Cranifex are worthwhile again. Exocrine is decent, but again, BS3 means 50% miss rate but the pie plate is promising. Tyrannofex I covered sort of already, not that great. Mawloc is still bad. No, I don't care how much DFB got buffed he still scatters the full amount and the ideal use for him gives him a 16% chance of flat out dieing. No thank you, I will take something that is far more reliable than him. Consider that a Trygon is hitting at S6 AP2, can shoot, and doesn't have the risk of killing himself due to mishap. Speaking of which, Trygons and Primes are still alright I will play them. Biovores are sweet. Plant them with your backfield Warriors for synapse and fire away! I definitely will have to pick some up for this codex.
Overall I hate the codex. It is poorly written, poorly planned, and just as boring as the 5th codex. But you CAN have fun with it and dare I say it, even play semi-competitvely with it. Just don't expect to be winning any tournament with it.
For the tyranid psychic powers, they can always go with the Primaris, which will always be useful.
Melee weapons have been a nerf to some units but has helped others. While it's true that GW has removed attacks from some units, overall, melee weapons tend to buff the HQ units or units that have not had an Attack taken away from them.
I don't really see a tyrant guard running with a walkrant. Rather, I see tyrant guards as making the Swarmlord more playable. Swarmy is no longer the beatstick he once was, but he is still a great force multiplier and with the loss of Biomancy, cheaper tyrant guard bodyguards make him slightly more viable.
Zoanthropes are just as important to a Tyranid army as venomthropes as force-multiplier units.
Gargoyles are good. Raveners are actually a good unit still. They haven't really changed from the previous edition, which was why I didn't really mention them in my article, but they are still a viable choice, especially now that force weapons and S8-spam isn't what it used to be.
Yeah, I can see a lot of veteran players not liking this new dex. That's too bad, but that's just the nature of the game. If you're (I'm talking about the generic "you") not willing to give it a chance and trying to work with the new rather than bitch about the changes to the old, then you'll most likely shelf your army or abandon it.
Swara wrote: Played a proxy game last night with some mixed results, but it was pretty fun at least.
- 1600
(earlier I put 1500 by instinct, we did 1600)
It was a blast (pun intended).
Crone was lackluster in this game and might be replaced with harpy if I think Flyrants can handle anti air duty. The fact that he can only fire 1 missile after vectoring makes him meh for anti air. The harpy though could through down a mine and help with anti vehicle, which I need.
Don't have much to take on higher toughness units, but it's a work in progress.
Biovores and 2 venoms and the warriors sat their butts on the skyshield to claim their 2+cover and 4++.
That's an interesting build.
Normally, with biovores, I'd recommend more tank busting power (i.e. some hive guards) so they have some infantry to shoot at, but this list will be killer against infantry builds. Take advantage of the spore mines assaulting while you still can. I have a feeling GW will be FAQ'ing that.
Place ADL mid table and infiltrate all 80 stealers behind it. First turn go to ground outside sinapde for 2++. Next turn fly HT within synapse to auto correct from pinning. The zoies + HT all fish for catalyst. I know it's far from ideal but would be a funny as hell to spring 80 "bad" stealers on your opponent
pretty sure the ADL has to be in your deployment zone...
Place ADL mid table and infiltrate all 80 stealers behind it. First turn go to ground outside sinapde for 2++. Next turn fly HT within synapse to auto correct from pinning. The zoies + HT all fish for catalyst. I know it's far from ideal but would be a funny as hell to spring 80 "bad" stealers on your opponent
pretty sure the ADL has to be in your deployment zone...
Nope!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noctem wrote: I don't think that the tail weapon counts as an additional cc weapon for +1 attack, that's what I've heard anyways
The tail weapon is its own separate attack that also takes place
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was looking at a 2k list with...
Attack Group
Hive Commander Flyrant
Hive Commander Flyrant
Harpy
Harpy
Support Group
Tervigon (given outflank)
Tervigon (given outflank)
The attack group brings the fight forward to the enemy. The defence group acts as artillery shelling and scoring back/midfield objectives. Support group arrives on the flanks where the least opposition possible will be realized and starts spawning scoring units to draw heat off the rest of the force and seek to secure or deny objectives.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/13 17:45:33
"The objective of the game is to win. The purpose of the game is to have fun. The two should not be confused."
DarthDiggler wrote: Post the Tau list first. It's easy for you to tear apart a bug list with everything in the tau codex, but they can't take everything so post the Tau list first.
Make sure you can have a way for the Riptides to stay upright and not pinned by the horror psychic power.
Ethereal: Stubborn + Ld 10 12" bubble. I think that would be a decent if not uncommon fix, though certainly not unsermountable (Pressision shots, Mawloc, Biovores). How many psychers are you brininging in the nid list that Horror would be stastically relavant? I ask because an entire Zoe unit may only roll once on the Hive Mind Chart. Tervigons only get 1 roll. Flyrants get two rolls each. Just doesn't seem like you would be able to reliabily get multiples of any single psychic power.
DarthDiggler wrote: Post the Tau list first. It's easy for you to tear apart a bug list with everything in the tau codex, but they can't take everything so post the Tau list first.
Make sure you can have a way for the Riptides to stay upright and not pinned by the horror psychic power.
Ethereal: Stubborn + Ld 10 12" bubble. I think that would be a decent if not uncommon fix, though certainly not unsermountable (Pressision shots, Mawloc, Biovores). How many psychers are you brininging in the nid list that Horror would be stastically relavant? I ask because an entire Zoe unit may only roll once on the Hive Mind Chart. Tervigons only get 1 roll. Flyrants get two rolls each. Just doesn't seem like you would be able to reliabily get multiples of any single psychic power.
If you were going to run this tactic I would imagine you would start with 2 Genestealer units with Broodlords in each. That is two Horrors right there that can be cast on turn 1 because the stealers would infiltrate close enough to be in range. You can be really aggressive with them if you go first because you will get the power off on the top of turn 1 and have 2 Flyrants in the enemy face also.
2014/01/13 18:01:13
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Deshkar wrote: If you wanna do a flying circuses, would it be interesting to run double Tyrannofexes with AG, Acid and Beetles? They will hit their torrent flamer on turn two as well, especially if you can get Onslaught on them. 5 FMCs, + 2 T6 2+ MC w fleet and torrent on turn two, is interesting.
This could be an interesting list. How many points do you plan to play?
1850.
If I wanna tool the Circus list to be even more extreme and gamble I'm kinda interested to see Tyrannofexes pacing with the flying brood.
2x Flyrant
Zoey
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
30 Termagants
1 Terivgon
2x Crone
1x Harpy
2x Biovore
2x Tyrannofex w AG Acid Maw/Beetles
1840
Though, if you wanna drop the Tervigon, you can add 2 warriors brood for a total of 5 scoring and 6 synapses.
Turn 1 Shrouded protection. Turn 2 in the opponent fase, kill his troops deny and maybe score a little with ur gribbles.
Just entertaining the thought, LOL.
I'm actually warming up to the idea of a tyrannofex w/acid spray build. They are pretty darn cheap for a 2+ T6 W6 MC. However, at 1850, I am not comfortable with just 2 troop choices. If you want to go with a Tyranid Airforce build, you might want to consider 2x Harpies + 1 Crone or just 3 Harpies. Then cut down on some of the T-fex upgrades to fit in 1 more unit of 10x termagants.
Looky Likey wrote: I just really like the thought of using a Mawloc to disrupt their back line then same turn pop up a tevigon or two as close as I can.
I'm thinking something like this at 2k:
HQ Flying Tyrant with wings, hive commander
Flying Tyrant with wings, hive commander
Elite Zoanthrope * 2
Venomthrope * 2
Troop Tervigon
Tervigon
Gants * 30
Gants * 30
Fast Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Gargoyles * 20
Heavy Mawloc
Exocrine
Total 2000
I don't want the Tervigons anywhere near the gants for obvious reasons, the Zoes will provide back line Synapse and the group will be shrouded by the Venomthropes while hiding in cover. The Exocrine advances, its just a big bull's eye to buy me some time. If he doesn't have any significant anti air the crones start on the board, otherwise I try to take it out turn one or at least disrupt it. Gargoyles are a shield as always.
It's a decent list. Just a few suggestions: 1) I don't recommend outflanking with both of your tervigons, 2) split up your zoanthropes into 2 separate units and 3) unless you want to run an Airforce build, you don't need 2 hive crones. Flyrants can handle most of the AA duties. Instead, swap out one of the hive crones for either another mawloc, exocrine or heavy support option.
dmthomas7 wrote: Has anyone given this idea a though?
Hive Tyrant with synapse relic( what ever that's called)
then roll your 2 powers which ever is less useful swap for dominion.
With a little luck pick up syapse warlord trait.
Not saying it would be highly effective but a 24-30" synapse range is massive. It turns your tyrant into the most important target in your army unfortunately but your synapse range is solid for hopefully a couple turns in which you could get many units into combat to prevent failing synapse. Is this legal via the codex. I don't have the dex yet so I don't actually know.
Also spinegants vs standard gants. tough choice. either 30 TL S3 shots or 30 S4 ap 5 shots. Honestly doesn't the math come out equal against MEQ and GEQ. If only GW had the kindness in their hearts to grant poison on shooting attacks via toxin sacs. Imagine devilgants with poison. Please do point out if my math or rules are wrong.
I don't recommend it. Your flyrant is a high-priority target. Both of them. In most games against more experienced players, he usually won't survive long enough to make the Synapse relic be worth it.
Between spine fists and fleshborers, IMO it's a tossup. Spine fists are better against T3 or T6 targets. Fleshborers are better against T4/5 opponents. The main difference is that fleshborers are better against vehicles (can glance AV10) whereas spine fists are better at grounding FMC's.
Newtype Zero wrote: I don't have the codex on hand with me, but aren't Spinefists also AP 5? I would think 30 TL shots would be more effective then 30 S4 shots since you should be hitting more with the TL.
They're both AP 5.
Mozzamanx wrote: I believe the additional hits outweigh the increased chance to wound.
Against T3, you get 0.375 Spine-Wounds compared to 0.33 Borer-Wounds.
Against T4, both weapons churn out 0.25.
Against T5, you get 0.17 Borers to 0.125 Spines
Against T6, you get 0.83 Borers to 0.125 Spines.
Therefore the Spinefists churn out more damage against T1-T3 and T6. Fleshborers win on T5 and T7, where the Spines become redundant. Against T4 both are equal.
I would say that you will probably fight more units at T3 and T6, than you will at T5 and T7. However it is worth considering that the Borers can glance AV10 while Spines simply bounce off.
Overall I'd prefer the Spinefists but Fleshborers absolutely have a place. Honestly I'd just go for what looks nicer..
Thanks for the math.
Just 1 mistake:
Against T6, you get 0.083 Borers to 0.125 Spines.
Also, spinefists can more reliably ground FMC's, which daemons and tyranids tend to bring a lot of.
Looky Likey wrote: Is there going to be a golden ratio for how much synapse is enough to prevent a collapse?
What do people think of the Hive Commander power now? Outflanking Tevigons anybody?
I disagree. A unit of Devilgaunts turning up on your opponent's flank is a godsend. Causes plenty of damage and forces your opponent to split his fire.
If I'd had to choose, I'd prefer to outflank some devilgants rather than my tervigon.
Nate668 wrote: Hive commander might actually be worth it now that most of our damage dealers are forced to walk across the board. Having two outflanking units (devilgaunts, or maybe even warriors with deathspitters/venom cannon to threaten the rear armor of vehicles) might be enough to convince your opponent to stick to the middle of the board rather than castle up in a corner.
I'd use Hive Commander to add some flexbility to my army. However, I don't recommend getting 2 hive commanders and then banking the main strategy of your army on outflanking. Hive Commander should be used as supporting tool, not the focal point of your offense.
Instead, I'd go for fast units like tyranid flyers, mawlocs, gargoyles, shrikes and raveners backed by venomthropes.
Place ADL mid table and infiltrate all 80 stealers behind it. First turn go to ground outside sinapde for 2++. Next turn fly HT within synapse to auto correct from pinning. The zoies + HT all fish for catalyst. I know it's far from ideal but would be a funny as hell to spring 80 "bad" stealers on your opponent
Interesting list. It's a purely fun list that can potentially wreck house in hilarious fashion. Just watch out for those darn Inquisitor allies with servo-skulls.
BTW, swap out 1 unit of zoes for some venoms. Venoms just make sense in this type of list.
Place ADL mid table and infiltrate all 80 stealers behind it. First turn go to ground outside sinapde for 2++. Next turn fly HT within synapse to auto correct from pinning. The zoies + HT all fish for catalyst. I know it's far from ideal but would be a funny as hell to spring 80 "bad" stealers on your opponent
pretty sure the ADL has to be in your deployment zone...
Nope. They just have to be in your half of the table.
Leth wrote: You know for the trygon tunnel you dont have to declare anymore right? Any infantry unit that came from reserve that turn can opt to use the tunnel, so basically the trygon provides an extra board edge. Might even work for outflankers as well(potentially deep strikers) so it provides options.
That does make it slightly more useful, though I don't believe you can consider it to be a board edge for outflankers.
It says that any unit coming from reserves may use it instead of coming on normally. Now that might mean that normally ala table edge, or normally as in how they would have deployed normally. the later is potentially pushing it a bit. I will leave it to the rules lawyers on that one.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
I'm actually warming up to the idea of a tyrannofex w/acid spray build. They are pretty darn cheap for a 2+ T6 W6 MC. However, at 1850, I am not comfortable with just 2 troop choices. If you want to go with a Tyranid Airforce build, you might want to consider 2x Harpies + 1 Crone or just 3 Harpies. Then cut down on some of the T-fex upgrades to fit in 1 more unit of 10x termagants.
Actually I did mention just a line down that if you didn't feel so suicidal, you could just drop the Tervigon and add 2 warriors brood for a total of 5 scoring (2 warriors and 3 10 terms) and 5 synapses.
If you really want, you could downsize a crone, and possibly squeeze a 6th troop of 10 gants.
Eg.
Flyrant -2x Devs Flyrant -2x Devs Zoey
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagant
10 Termagant
10 Termagant
10 Termagant
3 Warriors
3 Warriors
Crone
Harpy
Harpy
2x Biovore
Tyrannofex w AG, Acid Maw and Beetles
Tyrannofex w AG, Acid Maw and Beetles
1845 i think.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/13 18:10:08
for the emperor
2014/01/13 18:14:27
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Leth wrote: You know for the trygon tunnel you dont have to declare anymore right? Any infantry unit that came from reserve that turn can opt to use the tunnel, so basically the trygon provides an extra board edge. Might even work for outflankers as well(potentially deep strikers) so it provides options.
That does make it slightly more useful, though I don't believe you can consider it to be a board edge for outflankers.
It says that any unit coming from reserves may use it instead of coming on normally. Now that might mean that normally ala table edge, or normally as in how they would have deployed normally. the later is potentially pushing it a bit. I will leave it to the rules lawyers on that one.
isnt using the trygons tunnel in effective tho? what if all your models make their rolls to come in on turn 2... you can not choose not to roll for a unit to come in. since the tunnel could not be used till turn 3... wouldnt by turn 2 you have all your models on the table (50/50 chance atleast)
Those of you looking at Thorax Swarms for Tyrannofexes - it looks like we lost the ability to fire it as a "free" weapon in addition to the 2 normal MC weapons.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/01/13 18:31:17
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Leth wrote: You know for the trygon tunnel you dont have to declare anymore right? Any infantry unit that came from reserve that turn can opt to use the tunnel, so basically the trygon provides an extra board edge. Might even work for outflankers as well(potentially deep strikers) so it provides options.
That does make it slightly more useful, though I don't believe you can consider it to be a board edge for outflankers.
It says that any unit coming from reserves may use it instead of coming on normally. Now that might mean that normally ala table edge, or normally as in how they would have deployed normally. the later is potentially pushing it a bit. I will leave it to the rules lawyers on that one.
isnt using the trygons tunnel in effective tho? what if all your models make their rolls to come in on turn 2... you can not choose not to roll for a unit to come in. since the tunnel could not be used till turn 3... wouldnt by turn 2 you have all your models on the table (50/50 chance atleast)
Yep it needed fixing and still does.
To make use of the tunnel you need the trygon to come on first and not those you want to use it (before or same time) and even then its just one unit at a time, that cant assault, so stands there and gets shot.
What they needed to do was at least let you choose to hold things back and assault from the tunnel
2014/01/13 18:32:26
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
I don't think any of us have suggested that using Hive Commander to give Outflank to two Tervigons would be the basis of an offensive strategy, especially one that would be banked on for success. It is a support strategy pure and simple. It is only two units max after all.
"The objective of the game is to win. The purpose of the game is to have fun. The two should not be confused."
DarthDiggler wrote: Post the Tau list first. It's easy for you to tear apart a bug list with everything in the tau codex, but they can't take everything so post the Tau list first.
Make sure you can have a way for the Riptides to stay upright and not pinned by the horror psychic power.
Ethereal: Stubborn + Ld 10 12" bubble. I think that would be a decent if not uncommon fix, though certainly not unsermountable (Pressision shots, Mawloc, Biovores). How many psychers are you brininging in the nid list that Horror would be stastically relavant? I ask because an entire Zoe unit may only roll once on the Hive Mind Chart. Tervigons only get 1 roll. Flyrants get two rolls each. Just doesn't seem like you would be able to reliabily get multiples of any single psychic power.
If you were going to run this tactic I would imagine you would start with 2 Genestealer units with Broodlords in each. That is two Horrors right there that can be cast on turn 1 because the stealers would infiltrate close enough to be in range. You can be really aggressive with them if you go first because you will get the power off on the top of turn 1 and have 2 Flyrants in the enemy face also.
Oh, good call on the stealers. Then you have the Flyrant move up and precision shot the Ethereal to death (assuming he is stuck in with Broadside/Drones or massive Kroot blob in cover). Kind of a Kamikazee move as I think you only have a 60% chance (90% of hitting, 1/5th precision, 5/6 wound, 1/6 LOS, 24 shots) or so of precisioning the etherreal away with both Flyrants. If you fail, then the ethereal will effectively ignore the Horror and you very well may lose both flyrants depending on if you got catalyst or not. Chance favors the bold though.
I think people are missing the point I am making with the tunnel. You are not taking the trygon FOR the tunnel, as multiple people have said you are going to take or not even if it didnt have the rule. However now it does not force you to make choices at deployment, it allows for a OPTION during the course of a game. You don't plan around it but are aware of the possibility. For example you roll for reserves and 1-2 units dont come in but your trygon does. Now you can strategically place your trygon taking advantage of this information. However if you dont get to use it, it doesnt matter you are still getting your worth out of the trygon.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
The attack group brings the fight forward to the enemy. The defence group acts as artillery shelling and scoring back/midfield objectives. Support group arrives on the flanks where the least opposition possible will be realized and starts spawning scoring units to draw heat off the rest of the force and seek to secure or deny objectives.
Even with your 2 tervigons outflanking, I feel that you've got enough scoring. As long as you can hide 1 unit of warriors and near an objective, I feel that you can drop 1 of those warriors. Also drop 1 biovore.
Now with 280-pts, you can get 2 more Attackers in the form of 2 mawlocs or another 1 harpy and 1 mawloc. So now your list will look something like this:
Attack Group
Hive Commander Flyrant
Hive Commander Flyrant
Harpy
Harpy
Harpy (or Mawloc)
Mawloc
Support Group
Tervigon (given outflank)
Tervigon (given outflank)
I'm actually warming up to the idea of a tyrannofex w/acid spray build. They are pretty darn cheap for a 2+ T6 W6 MC. However, at 1850, I am not comfortable with just 2 troop choices. If you want to go with a Tyranid Airforce build, you might want to consider 2x Harpies + 1 Crone or just 3 Harpies. Then cut down on some of the T-fex upgrades to fit in 1 more unit of 10x termagants.
Actually I did mention just a line down that if you didn't feel so suicidal, you could just drop the Tervigon and add 2 warriors brood for a total of 5 scoring (2 warriors and 3 10 terms) and 5 synapses.
If you really want, you could downsize a crone, and possibly squeeze a 6th troop of 10 gants.
Eg.
Flyrant -2x Devs Flyrant -2x Devs Zoey
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagant
10 Termagant
10 Termagant
10 Termagant
3 Warriors
3 Warriors
Crone
Harpy
Harpy
2x Biovore
Tyrannofex w AG, Acid Maw and Beetles
Tyrannofex w AG, Acid Maw and Beetles
1845 i think.
I actually prefer the tervigon, both for his ability to generate troops as well as for his psychic powers, over 2x3 warriors but that's just my personal preference.
BTW, I think you mean Acid Spray on the T-fexes instead of Acid Maw, no?
rigeld2 wrote: Those of you looking at Thorax Swarms for Tyrannofexes - it looks like we lost the ability to fire it as a "free" weapon in addition to the 2 normal MC weapons.
I don't think any of us have suggested that using Hive Commander to give Outflank to two Tervigons would be the basis of an offensive strategy, especially one that would be banked on for success. It is a support strategy pure and simple. It is only two units max after all.
You're paying 40-pts for those "options". I'd rather just pay 20-pts for that option.
Just my personal preference. I'd rather invest my points into something that I know I will use, rather into something that I may perhaps use, or maybe not.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/13 18:45:37
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