rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)

edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!

tag8833 wrote:
I had a game yesterday. It brought about a few Tactical questions.

Item 1:
My opponent was a player I hadn't played before, who I had the impression was a pretty good player. Our game wasn't representative of his skill because he had never faced tyranids before, and he conceded on turn 3, which brings me up to 5-0 with my 1500 pts raveners list and 2-0 with an 1850 varient, and I'm starting to think it might be more legit than I first anticipated. I fear the day that I run into a monolith or Land Raider, or the IG tank with the S8 or 9 large blast (Executioner?). Anyways, the list has produced a consistency that I hadn't expected, and I wonder if anyone has comments on running a list this unbalanced. Also, any suggestions for updating the list to handle AV:14 without compromising what it does.

Spoiler:

HQ:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourers)
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourers)

Elite:
Venom
Zoey
Zoey

Troops:
13 HGaunts
13 HGaunts
13 HGaunts

Fast Attacks:
20 Gargoyles
9 Raveners (RCs)
6 Shrikes (2 BS+LW, 4 RCs, 6 ST, 6 Flesh Hooks)

Item 2:
He had 2 land speeders (separate squads) that he moved up very aggressively. I was able to vector strike each with one flyrant on turn 1. I chose to vector strike because they had a 4+ Jink, and I thought it might be enough to kill them (one died). It essentially allowed me to shoot at 2 separate units. Which made it worth it, but I tried to run the math on Vector Strike vs 1 TL devourer on AV:10 vehicle with 4+ Jink, and it is about the same. Average vector Strike is 3 hits. Average TL Devourer is 5.33 hits, but I would lose 1/2 of them to the Jink. However, the greater number of hits from the devourer reduces the unlucky roll where I get a 1, 2, 2 to wound, but it adds a chance that he rolls really well on his saves. So, it seems a toss up to me, is there anyone who would make a case for one over the other being more reliable?

Item 3:
My opponent ran a giant squad of terminators with Lightening Claws. 10-12. At 1850 he adds a 2nd giant squad. We were both running "standard" lists, that we had prebuilt, and the only thing we knew about each others list, is that I warned him I was brining 2 FMC's. His list seems as unbalanced as mine, only I happen to have a very, very effective counter to his terminators in the form of my Raveners. Between 6 Raveners and 13 HGaunts, I killed 7 Terminators in the turn I charged. Imagine I was playing Dakkafexes + TFexes + Biovores + Flyrants with no Raveners, Mawlocs or Exocrines, would I want to do something like assault with Dakkafexes? Maybe Tarpit them with a TFex? Feed them Gaunts? Or, hold back plinking at them with Devourers?

Nice list, the "answer" for big blobs of terminators is, as always, Mawloc(s) S6 AP2 big template, do it again, now if you clear a spot the survivors can hammer you, but Mawlocs are tough, whats left might not be enough...

I agree that you're a little light on Troops, I'd have most likely ran fewer Gargoyles, Ravagers, Shrikes (say -5,-1,-1...) and purchased one more Troop...but if it works for ya...

I also prefer to run Zoeys in Broods of 2, but if you need the points elsewhere...

Edit for clarity.

omerakk wrote:
No matter what the argument is, I still don't consider a Zoanthrope to be "the bane" of AV 14.

First you have to do a pys test, then you have to hit, then you have to penetrate. A lot can go wrong in that sequence.

And all of this is assuming your target doesn't have some form of shield or cover save; which makes the odds even worse.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)

edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!

 Kain wrote:


It's all in good fun.

By now we mostly play extensively homebrewed and houseruled 40k (to tb the point of being unrecognizable) but we still sometimes play something closer to the "normal" game.

bodazoka wrote:

 Kain wrote:


It's all in good fun.

By now we mostly play extensively homebrewed and houseruled 40k (to tb the point of being unrecognizable) but we still sometimes play something closer to the "normal" game.

This isn't the sort of group that plays LOW but shuns dataslates is it?

Can you actually play a Reaver Titan? the escalation book doesn't have that guy in it.. the biggest bad guy in that book is the eldar titan.


A Flyrant with smash would be a good option for a Monolith, a LR as well if the troops inside it are squishy. Land Raiers have hardly any decent fire power for it's points though... kind of useless.

Addaran wrote:

omerakk wrote:
No matter what the argument is, I still don't consider a Zoanthrope to be "the bane" of AV 14.

First you have to do a pys test, then you have to hit, then you have to penetrate. A lot can go wrong in that sequence.

And all of this is assuming your target doesn't have some form of shield or cover save; which makes the odds even worse.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)

edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!

That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts.
The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds.
As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.

I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P

rigeld2 wrote:

Addaran wrote:

Spoiler:

omerakk wrote:
No matter what the argument is, I still don't consider a Zoanthrope to be "the bane" of AV 14.

First you have to do a pys test, then you have to hit, then you have to penetrate. A lot can go wrong in that sequence.

And all of this is assuming your target doesn't have some form of shield or cover save; which makes the odds even worse.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)

edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!

That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts.
The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds.
As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.

I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P

For 150 points you have a ~35% chance (without cover) to kill a Land Raider in one turn. At 18".
Wooooooooooooooo.... Also, 3 Zoeys is one of the worst uses of our elite slots right now. I'd much rather have a Dakkafex.

 Tyran wrote:
In all this time I only had to deal with a Land Raider once, and it died to 4 tentaclids lol.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Smashing MCs in melee are typically enough to deal with AV14. Typically.

rigeld2 wrote:
Why are you Reserving a Crone? Start him on the board - no Interceptor.

notbriang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why are you Reserving a Crone? Start him on the board - no Interceptor.

Specifically interceptor isn't the point here. In either circumstance, be it Interceptor or Regular fire from a Quad, if the Quad must fire Interceptor it loses it's next shooting phase. If the Crone starts on the table and I go first, the Crone move forward, does nothing but fire a Tentaclid or two or Stinger Salvo, because any smart opponent (which most of my friends are) won't allow a Vector Strike turn 1 just by counter-deploying against it. Opponents turn, Quad Gun, 4 Wounds, Grounding check, dies. Next turn it can fire Interceptor on something that must come in from Reserves (read: Mawloc), my Flyrant (Warlord) or one of my other valuable TMCs. Given the choice between offering the option for Warlord and First Blood, offering up a lot of Wounds against one of my other TMCs or Reserving the Crone and allowing it to Vector Strike when it comes on the board, or have a superior position to at least use it's Drool Cannon, I'd much rather Reserve the Crone and deny the Quad Gun a round of shooting in my opponents next shooting phase.

notbriang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why are you Reserving a Crone? Start him on the board - no Interceptor.

Specifically interceptor isn't the point here. In either circumstance, be it Interceptor or Regular fire from a Quad, if the Quad must fire Interceptor it loses it's next shooting phase. If the Crone starts on the table and I go first, the Crone move forward, does nothing but fire a Tentaclid or two or Stinger Salvo, because any smart opponent (which most of my friends are) won't allow a Vector Strike turn 1 just by counter-deploying against it. Opponents turn, Quad Gun, 4 Wounds, Grounding check, dies. Next turn it can fire Interceptor on something that must come in from Reserves (read: Mawloc), my Flyrant (Warlord) or one of my other valuable TMCs. Given the choice between offering the option for Warlord and First Blood, offering up a lot of Wounds against one of my other TMCs or Reserving the Crone and allowing it to Vector Strike when it comes on the board, or have a superior position to at least use it's Drool Cannon, I'd much rather Reserve the Crone and deny the Quad Gun a round of shooting in my opponents next shooting phase.

rigeld2 wrote:

Addaran wrote:

omerakk wrote:
No matter what the argument is, I still don't consider a Zoanthrope to be "the bane" of AV 14.

First you have to do a pys test, then you have to hit, then you have to penetrate. A lot can go wrong in that sequence.

And all of this is assuming your target doesn't have some form of shield or cover save; which makes the odds even worse.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)

edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!

That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts.
The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds.
As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.

I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P

For 150 points you have a ~35% chance (without cover) to kill a Land Raider in one turn. At 18".
Wooooooooooooooo.... Also, 3 Zoeys is one of the worst uses of our elite slots right now. I'd much rather have a Dakkafex.

A Dakkafex is not an Elite choice. I admit to being very fond of Zoey(s) what is a better use of an Elite slot?

tag8833 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Addaran wrote:

Spoiler:

omerakk wrote:
No matter what the argument is, I still don't consider a Zoanthrope to be "the bane" of AV 14.

First you have to do a pys test, then you have to hit, then you have to penetrate. A lot can go wrong in that sequence.

And all of this is assuming your target doesn't have some form of shield or cover save; which makes the odds even worse.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)

edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!

That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts.
The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds.
As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.

I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P

For 150 points you have a ~35% chance (without cover) to kill a Land Raider in one turn. At 18".
Wooooooooooooooo.... Also, 3 Zoeys is one of the worst uses of our elite slots right now. I'd much rather have a Dakkafex.

Chance to Blow up a Land Raider with Zoenthropes:
No Deny Bonus Psychic Hood Rune Priest # No Cover 5+ Cover 4+ Cover # No Cover 5+ Cover 4+ Cover # No Cover 5+ Cover 4+ Cover 1 11.32% 7.54% 5.66% 1 9.05% 6.04% 4.53% 1 6.79% 4.53% 3.40% 2 22.63% 15.09% 11.32% 2 18.11% 12.07% 9.05% 2 13.58% 9.05% 6.79% 3 33.95% 22.63% 16.98% 3 27.16% 18.11% 13.58% 3 20.37% 13.58% 10.19%

Chance that a brood of zoeys does nothing but make you roll dice and feel annoyed:
No Deny Bonus Psychic Hood Rune Priest # No Cover 5+ Cover 4+ Cover # No Cover 5+ Cover 4+ Cover # No Cover 5+ Cover 4+ Cover 1 58.95% 73.10% 80.17% 1 68.83% 80.14% 85.80% 1 78.70% 87.19% 91.44% 2 41.98% 49.05% 52.58% 2 55.25% 60.91% 63.73% 2 68.52% 72.76% 74.88% 3 36.32% 41.03% 43.39% 3 50.72% 54.49% 56.38% 3 65.12% 67.95% 69.37%
Since I almost never see a land Raider without Psychic Hood or Run Priest, zoey have very little chance to do much.

Edit to correct the 4+ Cover results

 ductvader wrote:
Crones are bad...unless you have 2.

 ductvader wrote:
Two solo venomthropes...now you're done with your elite slots...unless you're trying to hide a single zoey for synapse (which I am not a fan of / just run 3 warriors with a strangler)

notbriang wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
In all this time I only had to deal with a Land Raider once, and it died to 4 tentaclids lol.

I've been having a lot of trouble with my Crone and I'm starting to doubt it's value as a unit. As far as I've been playing it, it's a 24" move from the board edge on arrival, T5 Sv4+ FMC with a Grounding check. All of the games in my FLGS have ADLs with Quad Guns, and it seems like every. single. time. I move my Crone on the table from reserves, it hits the table, snags it's wounds from a Vector Strike, then dies at the end of movement. Three times in as many games against Aegis Defense Lines (no I'm not kidding), the Quad Gun has hit with everything, wounded with everything (thanks T5 *eyeroll*) and I've subsequently failed the Grounding check and it's dead and off table. 155 points for a maximum of 4 unsavable Wounds is just not worthwhile as it stands with *one* Crone.

So I'm debating including multiples, which is why I'm coming to this thread to seek outside advice, clues, maybe some things I haven't thought of yet.

For instance, last night - 1850 game versus Salamanders. List was Hive Tyrant, Tervigon (HQ), 3 Venomthrope, Tervigon(troop), 30 Termagant, 2 units of 3 Warriors with Stranglers, Crone (w/Stinger Salvo, always Stinger Salvo, it's SO good on a Crone), 3 Biovore, Exocrine, Mawloc, ADL w/Comms Relay.

Situation was - Crone came on from reserves turn 2. Decimated Melta marines who were on my left flank threatening my HQ Tervigon. Interceptor fire hits 4 times, Wounds 4 times. I roll a one on my grounding test.

Sorry about the wall of text here. This is just really frustrating the crap out of me and I'm looking for a solution.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Smashing MCs in melee are typically enough to deal with AV14. Typically.

The problem is when that high AV is also attached to a strength D Chainsword (granted, Knight are 13/12/12, not 14/14/14)

Here are a few things you can do to help mitigate this situation.

1. Bastion (w/comms if you'd like).

2. Venomthrope in or behind the bastion.

3. Hive Crone touching terrain near bastion (or behind) for a 3+ (2+ behind) cover.

4. Don't reserve your crone if you've got any of the above.

4. If he's firing at your hive crone, then he isn't firing at your flyrants. Win!

pinecone77 wrote:
A Dakkafex is not an Elite choice. I admit to being very fond of Zoey(s) what is a better use of an Elite slot?

pinecone77 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.

To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?

rigeld2 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.

To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?

Zoeys were touted as being a great answer to AV14. Those numbers prove that if that's our "great answer" outside of CC, we don't really have an answer.

 Iechine wrote:
Before this codex my Zoanthropes popped a lot of landraiders. But AP1 and individual psychic tests helped a lot.