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2014/06/27 04:53:11
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Hey guys, I need some input on a few things; tactics and general experience on just how far I can push a unit before it hits its limit and I start sending things on suicide missions that they just can't do.
Carnifexes I currently have 3 builds planned for my horde of Carnifexes; Some I have a decent idea of what I can use them for, others, I have no idea whatsoever. Coincidentally, if anyone can come up with another dedicated loadout for another 3 Carnifexes to run, I would love to hear it.
Anti-?-Standard Dakkafex, no real upgrades on it. Never used one before, so I am fairly iffy on just how much it can actually do vs a marine squad, light transports, and heavy armor.
Anti-Infantry- Dual Scything Talons, Bio-Plasma, Spine Banks, Thresher Scythe, and most likely Acid Blood, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration.
Anti-Tank- Scything Talons, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, perhaps even Bio-Plasma? Just how far can I push this for anti-tank, and just how many of these would I have to throw at hardened enemies like Baneblades, Monoliths, Landraiders, and some of the sturdier fortifications (I think they still can get up to AV15?)
Tervigons So, I have plenty of models now, but now I need to focus on the primary focus of what these Tervigons are going to be. The way I see it, these things need to be constantly pushing forward, and eventually I am going to have to come in contact with a squad or even enemy vehicles. So, what would you guys suggest as a durable loadout for anti-infantry and anti-vehicle use?
Tyrannofexes So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/27 05:47:36
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/06/27 05:31:12
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Well, it could actually be this as well.
(I assume the number given for how many models you need beneath the template is calculated to match damage output of 6x TL Devourer shots fired at BS4 right?) Either way, now that I've had a proper chance to sit down analyze the math properly at the computer, and not just trying to read through it being badly formatted on my cracked ass phone, it looks like beetles are better than Devourers for killing Terminators, Oblits, and Cents, but nothing else. Making them quite a niche choice but does give you a slight boost to coverage you may otherwise lack. A Flyrant shouldn't have too much trouble lining up 3 Cents (or 1 or 2 more if the squad is larger) in a template, he can really get at them from any angle. I really would like to see those calcs for T5 Marines though. SM bikes are very commonly spammed and spammed with Grav. I think its about 4 models under the template to match Dev's though, which is probably unrealistic considering the size of bikes.
I can see that Beetles are not as good as I thought though, and should really only ever be taken on Flying Tyrants (never Tervis or Tyrannos), and only if you know you are going up against ATTEQ, and only at low points where the Haywire Grubs aren't as critical.
All in all, I recede my previous statement, that Beetles should definitely be taken on Flyrants at 500. However I will restate that I don't think Haywire Grubs are very important as they are in bigger games, and can be safely cut for 10 points. That being said, most the time you will probably end up having 10 points to take 1 or the other and both are good utility, the Haywire will probably have more uses, making it take a turn less to bring down anything AV13-14, and outdamaging AV12+ on any template that can catch multiple models. However the ability to ace an extra Centurion (or 2) will definitely be worth the 10 points when it becomes relevant, and will be worthwhile for TEQ in general at lower points, where every single wound will make a big difference as any TEQ will be a large portion of their army.
Once again, thanks heaps for the calcs, I am no good at them and mostly play off feel / maths in my head, tightening up all the little things like this definitely help me take my game up a level (and likely other people reading it too). Big props.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/06/27 05:36:35
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/06/27 12:34:13
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Carnifexes I currently have 3 builds planned for my horde of Carnifexes; Some I have a decent idea of what I can use them for, others, I have no idea whatsoever. Coincidentally, if anyone can come up with another dedicated loadout for another 3 Carnifexes to run, I would love to hear it.
Anti-?-Standard Dakkafex, no real upgrades on it. Never used one before, so I am fairly iffy on just how much it can actually do vs a marine squad, light transports, and heavy armor.
Anti-Infantry- Dual Scything Talons, Bio-Plasma, Spine Banks, Thresher Scythe, and most likely Acid Blood, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration.
Anti-Tank- Scything Talons, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, perhaps even Bio-Plasma? Just how far can I push this for anti-tank, and just how many of these would I have to throw at hardened enemies like Baneblades, Monoliths, Landraiders, and some of the sturdier fortifications (I think they still can get up to AV15?)
#1: The standard Dakkafex is basically a generalist (anti-everything). Its ranged capabilities work off the same principle as the bulk of the Eldar's firepower, so it should be able to handle anything short of AV13+ (which it can just charge and crack with a battery of S9 hits). I haven't run a Dakkafex yet personally, but there is a reason it is a popular build.
#2: You might want to try a Haruspex instead of this build. Bare-bones, a Haruspex will come out 45 points cheaper yet it should be able to do the same sort of job this build is intended to do (It comes with a S6 AP2 gun and its own form of Regeneration built in along with Acid Blood stock) with a few extra goodies and stat boosts. Also incidentally, a Haruspex also has Crushing Claws which can help it serve as a tank-cracker in a pinch (no pun intended). For an anti-infantry specialist Carnifex, I'd probably lean towards either Talons + Stranglethorn Cannon or Devourers + Stranglethorn Canon.
#3: I'd probably leave off the Bioplasma from this build (confuses its role - it mainly wants to wreck vehicles while Bioplasma tempts you to send it at heavy infantry), but otherwise it should work fine.
As for one last build, I'm sorely tempted to try running a Heavy Venom Cannon + Bioplasma Carnifex just for giggles. Generally though, I run mine stock with no upgrades at all and just use them as can openers. No point in spending a bunch of points on upgrades when all I need them to do is soak firepower and crush a tin can every now and then.
Tervigons So, I have plenty of models now, but now I need to focus on the primary focus of what these Tervigons are going to be. The way I see it, these things need to be constantly pushing forward, and eventually I am going to have to come in contact with a squad or even enemy vehicles. So, what would you guys suggest as a durable loadout for anti-infantry and anti-vehicle use?
Anti-tank: Crushing Claws + Electroshock Grubs (maybe Adrenal Glands if you can spare the points)
Anti-infantry: Miasma Cannon + Shreddershard Beetles
Tyrannofexes So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
Magnetizing would be ideal, but if that isn't possible I'd suggest sticking with the Acid Spray or Acid Spray + Thorax Swarm. Both of mine are equipped with Rupture Cannons and in the previous rules I loved pulling them out to crack armor. Sadly with the new vehicle damage chart, they are basically no more effective against tanks than an Autocannon, but far more expensive. The only time I would run one with a Rupture Cannon now is an Apocalypse battle where they can take advantage of the Valdor Gunbeast Brood formation to get free Tank Hunter, Ignores Cover, and Twin-linked. For regular games, Hive Guard are better suited to hull point stripping, between their greater volume of shots (8 S8 AP4 shots vs 2 S10 AP4 shots) and innate ignores cover.
2014/06/27 17:52:50
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Tyrannofexes So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
I personally like to kit mine out with a Fleshborer Hive and Electroshock Grub Thorax. the FB Hive mows through infantry and can glance down low armor vehicles, the Thorx has haywire and can help soften up a tougher vehicle up before I charge it.
2014/06/27 18:19:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I have a 2000pts game against Necrons tomorrow that I can tailor to (He is tailoring as well). He's almost assuredly bringing a Monolith if not two with Barges. Necrons I have some of the least experience playing. So far Ive got:
Flyrant w/Electroshock and Devourers, HC for Tervigon
Flyrant w/Electroshock and Devourers
Tyrannofexes So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
I personally like to kit mine out with a Fleshborer Hive and Electroshock Grub Thorax. the FB Hive mows through infantry and can glance down low armor vehicles, the Thorx has haywire and can help soften up a tougher vehicle up before I charge it.
Fleshborer is best against some low T MCs like Riptides and Demon Princes, Elite infantry like Centurions, Obliterators, Broadsides, and light armor like War walkers and maybe Land speeders. Acid spray is better in most other situations. Because a Tfex is slow, and thus unlikely to get to the Elite infantry, I tend to go for acid spray.
Tfexes aren't really there for their damage output. Mine tend to do more anti vehicle work, than anything else (E. Grubs). But Primarily TFexes are good as a MC that is really hard to kill. Walk them right across the board, and get linebreaker. Any shooting at the TFex is shooting not at other more vulnerable MC's like Tyrants, Carnifexes or Tervigons.
One exception to this rule. Drop Pod Marines die in droves to Tfexes. I just posted a Batrep (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602237.page) In Which a TFex killed lots of marines, and got me linebreaker and held an objective in my opponent's backfield.
Inexperienced players tend to want to give the Tyrannofex regen, which might work in very small games, but any game above 1500 it is a big waste. If an opponent wants to kill a Tfex, he will do so in 1 or 2 turns, so you are paying 30 points to not really extend its life. If you Tyrannofex dies on Turn 1 or 2, it isn't a bad thing, it means the enemy has been leaving alone your other more critical MCs. Experienced opponents will generally leave the TFex alone until the more important MCs are wiped out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/27 18:25:47
2014/06/27 18:29:42
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Iechine wrote: I have a 2000pts game against Necrons tomorrow that I can tailor to (He is tailoring as well). He's almost assuredly bringing a Monolith if not two with Barges. Necrons I have some of the least experience playing. So far Ive got:
Flyrant w/Electroshock and Devourers, HC for Tervigon
Flyrant w/Electroshock and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenals and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenals and Devourers
Carnifex w/Stranglethorn and adrenals
Biovore
Biovore
Am I going overboard with the AP/Vehicle killing tailoring? Would Bioplasma on the Carnifex's be worth it?
No, it's not. And I'd even drop the Stranglethorn for Devs unless you're locked by what the model has.
For the barges, get behind them and then pour all your Flyrant's shots into them. That's honestly your best option - they're beefy. Also, decide before the game if they're allowed the 3++ invul from the Phase Shifter.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/06/27 18:47:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Iechine wrote: I have a 2000pts game against Necrons tomorrow that I can tailor to (He is tailoring as well). He's almost assuredly bringing a Monolith if not two with Barges. Necrons I have some of the least experience playing. So far Ive got:
Haruspex w/Adrenal Glands
I would drop Adrenals.
Iechine wrote: Tervigon w/Electroshock and Crushing Claws
Crushing Claws are an expensive upgrade to give to a unit as pricey and slow as the Tervigon, especially one that can't see combat before turn 3 at the absolute earliest. I would drop them.
Iechine wrote: Carnifex w/Adrenals and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenals and Devourers
Carnifex w/Stranglethorn and adrenals
Stranglethorn works well against necron infantry. If he prefers Mech, I would switch to Devourers. Also, I trust you have 1 Devourer to go with the STC.
I wouldn't run the Adrenals, because Necrons can put down MC's fairly easily.
Biovores are super effective against Necron infantry.
Iechine wrote: Am I going overboard with the AP/Vehicle killing tailoring?
Maybe a little. If I were you I would drop the Adrenals and add another Zoey in a separate squad as a warp charge battery for the Tyrants. Getting Warp blast off from one of your tyrants will really help you with mech. My experience is the Monolithes are easier to ignore than to kill.
Iechine wrote: Would Bioplasma on the Carnifex's be worth it?
No. Swapping one carnifex for an Exocrine might be ok, but overall, I think I would stand pat.
As a final thought, you are running 3 flyers. 5 flyers would be better. Dropping the Tervigon for another flyrant and / or a carnifex for another crone, and you will have improved your anti vehicle firepower as well as enhanced your overall survivability.
2014/06/28 11:12:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread about competitive tyranids and the feeling was that combined arms Nids are probably the strongest we can get. I am in that stage were I'm updating my models for the new edition. Was hoping to get some feedback on this list, particularly the crones and exocrines as those would be new models to buy.
"drinking liqueur from endangered rain forest flowers cold-distilled over multicolored diamonds while playing croquet on robot elephants using asian swim suit models as living wickets... well, some hobbies are simply more appealing than others." -Sourclams
I don't think a second detachment is worth it for a single Flyrant. I don't think taking our FA flyers is a great idea if your plan isn't just to max out Crones and Flyrants. Crones just aren't really worth it anymore after the nerf they were only just worth it before.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/06/28 14:44:45
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
AesSedai wrote: I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread about competitive tyranids and the feeling was that combined arms Nids are probably the strongest we can get. I am in that stage were I'm updating my models for the new edition. Was hoping to get some feedback on this list, particularly the crones and exocrines as those would be new models to buy.
I doubt you want that many Rippers. There are too many things with S6. You will never use up their full Wounds. Also Rippers can't provide intervening models cover for Big bugs, because they are so short. One deep striking squad should be enough. 2 Exocrines are Iffy. Depends completely on your meta. If you run into Tau or Grey Knights a lot, it is probably a good move. In many scenarios, another carnifex would be better. 3 Flyrants alone will win you alot of games. The Zoeys are great mana batteries.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think a second detachment is worth it for a single Flyrant. I don't think taking our FA flyers is a great idea if your plan isn't just to max out Crones and Flyrants. Crones just aren't really worth it anymore after the nerf they were only just worth it before.
I disagree with this sentiment entirely. Crone's value is anti-air, a little anti mech, but mainly drawing fire away from Flyrants. Their damage output is less important than their tendency to distract opponents. 2 Crones is better than 1. 3 Crones is iffy in many situations.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/28 14:50:27
2014/06/28 15:37:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Awesome! I miss the days of Apoc with bugs. Since Apoc came out last edition, I haven't played it yet. Just may have to get something going again. This reminds me of the good 'ole days.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Nice battle. With Apocalypse coming to the front again, I want to ask a few questions. I have begun to dig through my most recent purchase and get things reconverted to their proper items, and now comes some good ol' honest speculation. As it stands, I am now the proud owner of 27 shrikes, with 3 full uniform broods of 6 stock/3 rending claw melee shrikes. So, my question is if this will be sufficient to do decent damage deepstruck behind enemy lines? Also, on a subject for boosting the sturdiness of some of my Tyranid Primes, how does it sound to have a couple abandoned Tyrant Guards get some new friends for some toughness 6 goodies for some fairly durable synapse, with some extra boneswords on the Prime for some reasonable lethality at 190pts per unit?
Deepstriking shrikes could be effective if they are supported with enough threats (a la Maximum Threat Overload). As long as you present "bigger" threats to your opponents, your shrikes may actually live to wreak havoc in his backlines. However, if you bring a slow army, then your opponent will have time to deal with your shrikes before returning back to dealing with the rest of your army.
As for the Prime+2 tyrant guards combo, why not just get a tervigon? 7W vs 6W. However, the tervigon can generate more troops and adds warp dice to your warp charge pool. Also, he can get 18" Synapse thanks to free Dominion. But if you don't want to run the tervigon, then yeah, the Prime+guards can work as a poor-man's tervigon substitute.
omerakk wrote: Here's a little Endless Swarm list I messed around with today. 2000pts, 2 CAD
Trygon pops up to provide a tunnel for the swarm to respawn from
Rippers deepstrike back in just to be annoying
Warriors provide mid/back field synapse while supporting with the barbed stranglers
Termagaunts hold rear objectives and mid objectives
Biovores help blast units out of cover
Carnifex's are there because I think they look cool might even be useful vs AV14 under certain circumstances
Not the best thing in the world, but still looks like it could be fun!
You've got too many support units. However, what you really need is another trygon. 1 trygon hole just isn't enough for your Endless Horde. I'd recommend 2, especially at 2K.
Drop 1 zoan and/or venom. Downgrade the Prime to just a regular trygon. You have 2 units of 3 warriors. Downgrade 1 to another unit of rippers and lastly, if you need to, drop 1 biovore and I believe you should be able to fit in a 2nd trygon.
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Grav-centurions are nasty. They can put out a lot of shots. They can even deal with hordes if they take hurricane bolters. 3 TL-bolters means a potential 6 TL-shots from each Centurion. So even a min-sized unit of Centurions can put out 12 grav shots and 18 bolter shots. On top of that, a good Centurion player would take Tigurius to fish for Gate of Infinity and now you have a potentially fast Centurion unit that can be teleporting each turn. Not going to be easy locking them in place.
The best way to deal with them is just massed dakka from flyrants, dakkafexes and basically your entire army. Another idea is to use mawlocs and burrow up from underneath them (they have no Invuln's).
AesSedai wrote: I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread about competitive tyranids and the feeling was that combined arms Nids are probably the strongest we can get. I am in that stage were I'm updating my models for the new edition. Was hoping to get some feedback on this list, particularly the crones and exocrines as those would be new models to buy.
It's a good list. Flyrant's are the bee's knees in a Tyranid army. They are without a doubt the most flexible unit in the codex. You can't go wrong by running more flyrants.
1 thing I always recommend to all Tyranid players who want to play competitively, consider getting a bastion. It is a force-multiplier that helps to make your army much more durable. Moreover, in this edition, they are scoring as well! So you can lose the unit inside and still claim the nearby objective as long as your opponent doesn't take it over.
I agree that Crones and Flyrants are to work in tandem. I'm not saying Flyrants are better than Crones, just that taking more than 2 or at max 3 Flyrants or any number of Crones who have the same roles (Haywiring Tanks, S6'ing multiple infantry, providing AA, being a FMC) is probably not a good idea unless you are going for a full air attack to knock out anything with AA capability and make up lost points from playing overcosted models, by having them all nearly unkillable. Because newsflash, the Flyrant is wildly overcosted. He just provides support for multiple very critical roles, and does it more efficiently than anything else in the dex, once you have your super mobile cover ignoring Haywire template Synapse S6 spamming rear armor glancing role covered a couple of times, putting more points into these units and not more efficient ones like Carnifexes and others, without a very specific purpose its just going to crumble your list. I'm not saying another Flyrant would be better than the Crones there - I'm saying that taking either option is a bad idea unless he's going all in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/28 16:04:46
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/06/28 17:02:02
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
AesSedai wrote: I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread about competitive tyranids and the feeling was that combined arms Nids are probably the strongest we can get. I am in that stage were I'm updating my models for the new edition. Was hoping to get some feedback on this list, particularly the crones and exocrines as those would be new models to buy.
Looks nice! I would build a little different, but that has to do with your local Meta...when I play, a solo Thrope is gift wrapped "First Blood" so I always try to double them out. I also would have taken twin Dakkafexen before Exocrenes (and I save 40 points. ) but some of that is "style".
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/06/28 17:03:12
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Grav-centurions are nasty. They can put out a lot of shots. They can even deal with hordes if they take hurricane bolters. 3 TL-bolters means a potential 6 TL-shots from each Centurion. So even a min-sized unit of Centurions can put out 12 grav shots and 18 bolter shots. On top of that, a good Centurion player would take Tigurius to fish for Gate of Infinity and now you have a potentially fast Centurion unit that can be teleporting each turn. Not going to be easy locking them in place.
The best way to deal with them is just massed dakka from flyrants, dakkafexes and basically your entire army. Another idea is to use mawlocs and burrow up from underneath them (they have no Invuln's).
I know you were trying to agree with me here, but I have to say - did you even TRY to read the context or what has already been said, before posting Movember 2013's front page of the Tyranid Daily? Yes Cents are badass vs Nids, we all well and truly know this, and Tag never once said otherwise. I know you've decided to interpret a post about having little gameplay experience against Cents as someone in need of your advice, but I really don't think your "advice" is very relevant at all to the context.
Now for starters, the original context was ways to deal with Cents in 500 points. I'm going to assume you somehow managed to miss all the posts both below and above the one you quoted that constantly restated the fact that it was for a 500 pt setting, because I know you aren't suggesting that "all the good players" are taking a list of Tigger + 3 Heavy Bolter Cents and 2 scout squads. Literally the entire list, you can't even fit more than 1 Grav Cannon on the Cents lol. And why the hell would you not just take another full squad of Cents for the same price if you are trying to cover more ground, and with 6 more 2+ wounds instead of 3 in power armor from Tiggy. That's massive at 500, and has a larger damage output to boot.
Now on to the advice less relevant to the size of the game, and assuming you are just sharing that TL-Devs and Mawlocs are statistically the best options for the sake of the guy who was inexperienced, and not to the actual relevant context of the discussion. Thanks heaps by the way. I'm glad to know that massed Dakka from TL-Devs is the best way to kill Cents. That jy2 gem is almost as useful as the actual damage calcs on the same page that show us already stating exactly this, and also showing that Shreddershard Beetles actually out damage the Devs to Cent squads of 2 or more. Or maybe we'll just go with your other amazing suggestion of the Mawloc that was already discussed and ruled put because it can't hit anything in the upper level of the ruins, which is exactly where all "the good players" are going to put them if they see a Mawloc (or anything with AP2 from us). We have to come to them, not the other way around.
And while you are filling us in on all the best ways to deal with Cents, let's definitely not waste time mentioning the actual best option that was brought up in the Exocrine who does 150% the damage of a Flyrant to Centurions for 70 points less, and that's assuming 4+ cover, in open ground he straight triples the Flyrant out shooting 3 cents to death in 2 turns, or killing almost 50% of a squad of any size a turn for every blast that hits.
Sorry to be a sarcastic prick, but sometimes I see a post and it's like... What? I mean if you are going to jump in a conversation and start telling people how to do things, maybe you should at least check you have something fresh to contribute and/or the people you are telling don't clearly know what they are talking about far better than you do, as for the fact they had just crunched it all down in far more depth than "spam Dakkashots and Mawloc has AP2 hurr hurr"
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/06/28 17:19:50
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/06/28 18:11:05
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Grav-centurions are nasty. They can put out a lot of shots. They can even deal with hordes if they take hurricane bolters. 3 TL-bolters means a potential 6 TL-shots from each Centurion. So even a min-sized unit of Centurions can put out 12 grav shots and 18 bolter shots. On top of that, a good Centurion player would take Tigurius to fish for Gate of Infinity and now you have a potentially fast Centurion unit that can be teleporting each turn. Not going to be easy locking them in place.
The best way to deal with them is just massed dakka from flyrants, dakkafexes and basically your entire army. Another idea is to use mawlocs and burrow up from underneath them (they have no Invuln's).
I know you were trying to agree with me here, but I have to say - did you even TRY to read the context or what has already been said, before posting Movember 2013's front page of the Tyranid Daily? Yes Cents are badass vs Nids, we all well and truly know this, and Tag never once said otherwise. I know you've decided to interpret a post about having little gameplay experience against Cents as someone in need of your advice, but I really don't think your "advice" is very relevant at all to the context.
Now for starters, the original context was ways to deal with Cents in 500 points. I'm going to assume you somehow managed to miss all the posts both below and above the one you quoted that constantly restated the fact that it was for a 500 pt setting, because I know you aren't suggesting that "all the good players" are taking a list of Tigger + 3 Heavy Bolter Cents and 2 scout squads. Literally the entire list, you can't even fit more than 1 Grav Cannon on the Cents lol. And why the hell would you not just take another full squad of Cents for the same price if you are trying to cover more ground, and with 6 more 2+ wounds instead of 3 in power armor from Tiggy. That's massive at 500, and has a larger damage output to boot.
Now on to the advice less relevant to the size of the game, and assuming you are just sharing that TL-Devs and Mawlocs are statistically the best options for the sake of the guy who was inexperienced, and not to the actual relevant context of the discussion. Thanks heaps by the way. I'm glad to know that massed Dakka from TL-Devs is the best way to kill Cents. That jy2 gem is almost as useful as the actual damage calcs on the same page that show us already stating exactly this, and also showing that Shreddershard Beetles actually out damage the Devs to Cent squads of 2 or more. Or maybe we'll just go with your other amazing suggestion of the Mawloc that was already discussed and ruled put because it can't hit anything in the upper level of the ruins, which is exactly where all "the good players" are going to put them if they see a Mawloc (or anything with AP2 from us). We have to come to them, not the other way around.
And while you are filling us in on all the best ways to deal with Cents, let's definitely not waste time mentioning the actual best option that was brought up in the Exocrine who does 150% the damage of a Flyrant to Centurions for 70 points less, and that's assuming 4+ cover, in open ground he straight triples the Flyrant out shooting 3 cents to death in 2 turns, or killing almost 50% of a squad of any size a turn for every blast that hits.
Sorry to be a sarcastic prick, but sometimes I see a post and it's like... What? I mean if you are going to jump in a conversation and start telling people how to do things, maybe you should at least check you have something fresh to contribute and/or the people you are telling don't clearly know what they are talking about far better than you do, as for the fact they had just crunched it all down in far more depth than "spam Dakkashots and Mawloc has AP2 hurr hurr"
@SHUPPET
My response was more of a generalist response, only to tag's "unfamiliarity" with grav-centurions and not to the original poster(s). I skim through some of these comments, especially the ones I felt were already answered by other posters in this thread. Then I see tag's comment that he has very little experience with grav-centurions. The response was to specifically give more info to him than to address whoever/whatever he was replying to.
Sorry if there was any confusion as to the intent of my advice.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/28 18:16:58
Well it just seemed unlikely tome that you missed everything else, but if that is the case then thanks for your contribution. Maybe just check a little before coming off like all the statistical info that was discussed is just irrelevant in comparison to your advice, you can't be in that much of a hurry, every post you type is pretty large. I would more than welcome some fresh ideas to deal with Cents if you have any, gargpit is actually one of the better ones I've heard in a while.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/06/28 18:30:39
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Nice battle. With Apocalypse coming to the front again, I want to ask a few questions. I have begun to dig through my most recent purchase and get things reconverted to their proper items, and now comes some good ol' honest speculation. As it stands, I am now the proud owner of 27 shrikes, with 3 full uniform broods of 6 stock/3 rending claw melee shrikes. So, my question is if this will be sufficient to do decent damage deepstruck behind enemy lines? Also, on a subject for boosting the sturdiness of some of my Tyranid Primes, how does it sound to have a couple abandoned Tyrant Guards get some new friends for some toughness 6 goodies for some fairly durable synapse, with some extra boneswords on the Prime for some reasonable lethality at 190pts per unit?
Deepstriking shrikes could be effective if they are supported with enough threats (a la Maximum Threat Overload). As long as you present "bigger" threats to your opponents, your shrikes may actually live to wreak havoc in his backlines. However, if you bring a slow army, then your opponent will have time to deal with your shrikes before returning back to dealing with the rest of your army.
As for the Prime+2 tyrant guards combo, why not just get a tervigon? 7W vs 6W. However, the tervigon can generate more troops and adds warp dice to your warp charge pool. Also, he can get 18" Synapse thanks to free Dominion. But if you don't want to run the tervigon, then yeah, the Prime+guards can work as a poor-man's tervigon substitute.
Realistically, I was thinking of a 1 to 1 ratio of Primes to Guards.
On the subject of fast...I think I can come up with plenty of options. I'm sitting on;
Probably forgot a few here and there, but I definitely can take a look at fielding most of the formations.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/28 18:34:02
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/06/28 18:53:15
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: Well it just seemed unlikely tome that you missed everything else, but if that is the case then thanks for your contribution. Maybe just check a little before coming off like all the statistical info that was discussed is just irrelevant in comparison to your advice, you can't be in that much of a hurry, every post you type is pretty large. I would more than welcome some fresh ideas to deal with Cents if you have any, gargpit is actually one of the better ones I've heard in a while.
Will do.
With regards to dealing with Centurions on a more general level, we aren't really equipped very well to deal with them. Smallish 3-man units is not as big a prob. However, when they start to go deathstar on us - with Tiggy, buffed-up Chapter Master, 4-5 centurions and possibly Inquisiton allies - that is a conundrum for which there is no easy answer. All you can really do is to focus your entire army to try to take them down. Some strategies include:
- Weight of fire from flyrants and others. Move your flyrant to where the Chapter Master isn't tanking and then shoot directly at the centurions themselves. I'm not sure if this is 100% viable anymore, but in previous edition, if the Chapter Master was on a bike, you could focus-fire to ignore units with cover saves in order to circumvent the CM to get to the centurions.
- Mawlocs.
- Exocrines.
- Try to tarpit them. Depending on their loadout and the psychic powers that the IC's in the units have, this may be easier said than done.
- Spammed flyers may work against them. Get multiple flyers in close to coordinate a multi-assault with several FMC's. You'd probably lose 1 flyer on the turn he hovers, but if you can get all your FMC's (and also nearby units like mawlocs, exocrines, gargoyles, etc.) into assault, you just may wipe out the unit.
- Or just ignore them, lose 1 unit a turn, and then focus on the rest of the Marine army.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Nice battle. With Apocalypse coming to the front again, I want to ask a few questions. I have begun to dig through my most recent purchase and get things reconverted to their proper items, and now comes some good ol' honest speculation. As it stands, I am now the proud owner of 27 shrikes, with 3 full uniform broods of 6 stock/3 rending claw melee shrikes. So, my question is if this will be sufficient to do decent damage deepstruck behind enemy lines? Also, on a subject for boosting the sturdiness of some of my Tyranid Primes, how does it sound to have a couple abandoned Tyrant Guards get some new friends for some toughness 6 goodies for some fairly durable synapse, with some extra boneswords on the Prime for some reasonable lethality at 190pts per unit?
Deepstriking shrikes could be effective if they are supported with enough threats (a la Maximum Threat Overload). As long as you present "bigger" threats to your opponents, your shrikes may actually live to wreak havoc in his backlines. However, if you bring a slow army, then your opponent will have time to deal with your shrikes before returning back to dealing with the rest of your army.
As for the Prime+2 tyrant guards combo, why not just get a tervigon? 7W vs 6W. However, the tervigon can generate more troops and adds warp dice to your warp charge pool. Also, he can get 18" Synapse thanks to free Dominion. But if you don't want to run the tervigon, then yeah, the Prime+guards can work as a poor-man's tervigon substitute.
Realistically, I was thinking of a 1 to 1 ratio of Primes to Guards.
On the subject of fast...I think I can come up with plenty of options. I'm sitting on;
Probably forgot a few here and there, but I definitely can take a look at fielding most of the formations.
Another better investment instead of the Prime + 1 Guard (190-pts, right?) is to just field 4 separate zoanthropes. That's 4 separate units that your opponent would have to waste his firepower to potentially overkill (say you had 1 unit of devastators with 4 missile launchers. Would you want to waste that just to take out 1 zoanthrope or would your rather use them to fire at something else). That's also 4 separate beacons of 18" synapse that can spread out, kill tanks with Warp Blast, buff the army with other psychic powers and which provide 2 warp dice each.
As for shrikes, with your Apoc army, then it shouldn't be a problem. Have at it!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/28 19:05:30
jy2 wrote: Another better investment instead of the Prime + 1 Guard (190-pts, right?) is to just field 4 separate zoanthropes. That's 4 separate units that your opponent would have to waste his firepower to potentially overkill (say you had 1 unit of devastators with 4 missile launchers. Would you want to waste that just to take out 1 zoanthrope or would your rather use them to fire at something else). That's also 4 separate beacons of 18" synapse that can spread out, kill tanks with Warp Blast, buff the army with other psychic powers and which provide 2 warp dice each.
As for shrikes, with your Apoc army, then it shouldn't be a problem. Have at it!
That is true, isn't it. I think I can add a couple more Zoanthropes down the road for rounding out my army. Who knows, I might just do a bit more planning for when I finish up this last little bit of my college career and start seeing you and the rest of the team more often Jim down at the BAO, NOVA, etc. Might decide to humor you and see if I can't set the record for most models and "Assistant Movement Staff" fielded during a tournament.
One bit of speculation before I head off to work; I do not know how most of the rest of you feel about them, but have we all but gotten rid of hope of using the Trygon tunnels for some surprise fun? I actually have been looking at them as a semi-viable way to get Pyrovores to work. Some Devilgaunts, etc, etc, pop in and hose light transports, blobs, etc, etc, and then stick 3 nice juicy templates in the neighborhood to mop up what is left, and also discourage assault, since you will most likely practically have to charge both units in such a small area.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/28 19:22:21
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/06/29 09:32:47
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Sorry about my last post jy2, was 4 am for me and I misinterpreted the tone of your post.
You are right, Cents are the most cost effective unit against us and play to all our weaknesses. I'm considering taking a Garg tarpit, but in MC heavy its a surefire target for anti-infantry weaponry and I worry it will get cut down to size before it can do its job. Also, 180 pts for 30 Gargs is 170 for an Exocrine.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/06/29 13:03:20
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I kit out Stone Crushers as Dakkafexes because the model is dope. I don't know about stone Crushers actually rules however, I'm not a fan of Carnifexen as dedicated anti-tank on a slow ass MC body. I see him as a dakka platform, who already threatens tanks just by being there. I don't know what stone Crushers upgrade does but unless it adds a large number of attacks or a BlackMace-esque AOE, it's probably a bad idea. What DO they do?
Also Ork Traktor is Skyfire no interceptor. It means making them more vulnerable to the rest of the army but putting your FMCs in jump mode largely denies the points put into the guns. However while it doesn't tear our FMCs out of the sky it does deny mobility, although the amount of grounding checks + units that can hammer a Flyrant in CC from Orks, already means I was fairly cautious against them with my Flyrants and not swooping them willy nilly backfield regardless.
Also, there is no "just Orks". They already had a great match up against us and I believe it just got better. I have more trouble against some "friendly" Orks list than I do against "competitive" Marines
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/06/29 13:33:20
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
One bit of speculation before I head off to work; I do not know how most of the rest of you feel about them, but have we all but gotten rid of hope of using the Trygon tunnels for some surprise fun? I actually have been looking at them as a semi-viable way to get Pyrovores to work. Some Devilgaunts, etc, etc, pop in and hose light transports, blobs, etc, etc, and then stick 3 nice juicy templates in the neighborhood to mop up what is left, and also discourage assault, since you will most likely practically have to charge both units in such a small area.
Unless you also bring something to re-roll reserve roll, i wouldn't bother. 2 times out of 3, you won't be able to use the tunnel. (if they enter reserve before the trygon or at the same time) Without re-roll, the tunnel is only reliable for respawning units (endless swarm and skyblight gargoyles)
-Hive Fleet Wyvern, yay for nids! (around 1000 points)
2014/06/29 13:40:10
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Flyrants are a different beast against Orks and need to be played as such, backline Synapse and dakka, lining up multiple kans or transports with Haywire or getting rear AV dakka will be harder with the traktor up tho, as it stops the Flyrants going mobile when the two armies clash turn 2 and the Orks can no longer afford to ignore the rest of your army. I'm still not sure how the traktor will affect this match up and whether or not he will be worth his points in board control - I suspect he'll be good just to support their mech. Tyrannofex so good vs Orks if you need a way to deal with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/29 13:43:59
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/06/29 13:51:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
foto69man wrote: Also, anyone worried for their Winged Dakka Tyrants with the Ork Traktor thingy coming out? I know it's still Orks shooting it and all...
Actually, those cannons are crewed by Grots and thus fire at BS: 3 rather than the Orky BS: 2. I personally probably won't have to worry about them too badly, given our local shop is currently suffering from a massive influx of Imperial Knights and similar "small" super heavy vehicles and has next to no flyers outside of the occasional storm raven/talon. As such, our local Orks will probably be going with anti-tank guns rather than Traktor Cannons (though my little brother might build one just for fighting me).
Still, I think the guns won't be too big of a problem on their own. For one, flying monsters can easily get a 2+ jink save whilst within range of a Venomthrope. In the first few turns, they can simply jink to soak up the hits and then unload on the guns once they come into range. Secondly, the crew have horrible leadership with no real way to improve it (can babysit with a character, but presumably they won't benefit from Mob Rule seeing as Grots don't have it), meaning they are highly vulnerable to both pinning and plain-old running away from failed moral. The Grot crew also have no save of their own, so pretty much any S6+ guns will wreck havoc on them.
If push comes to shove, one can just keep monsters in swoop mode and completely bypass the grounding test modifier entirely.
One bit of speculation before I head off to work; I do not know how most of the rest of you feel about them, but have we all but gotten rid of hope of using the Trygon tunnels for some surprise fun? I actually have been looking at them as a semi-viable way to get Pyrovores to work. Some Devilgaunts, etc, etc, pop in and hose light transports, blobs, etc, etc, and then stick 3 nice juicy templates in the neighborhood to mop up what is left, and also discourage assault, since you will most likely practically have to charge both units in such a small area.
From experience, the Trygon Tunnels are great in Apocalypse where you have complete control over your reserves and have much larger boards to cross. In regular games... I don't know. I tend to roll a bit high on my reserves so everything tends to come in turn 2, leaving nothing for the tunnel (I really wish they could be used to put infantry into ongoing reserves - would allow for some fun shenanigans with jumping between tunnels).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/29 13:55:14
2014/06/29 14:21:44
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: I kit out Stone Crushers as Dakkafexes because the model is dope. I don't know about stone Crushers actually rules however, I'm not a fan of Carnifexen as dedicated anti-tank on a slow ass MC body. I see him as a dakka platform, who already threatens tanks just by being there. I don't know what stone Crushers upgrade does but unless it adds a large number of attacks or a BlackMace-esque AOE, it's probably a bad idea. What DO they do?
Also Ork Traktor is Skyfire no interceptor. It means making them more vulnerable to the rest of the army but putting your FMCs in jump mode largely denies the points put into the guns. However while it doesn't tear our FMCs out of the sky it does deny mobility, although the amount of grounding checks + units that can hammer a Flyrant in CC from Orks, already means I was fairly cautious against them with my Flyrants and not swooping them willy nilly backfield regardless.
Also, there is no "just Orks". They already had a great match up against us and I believe it just got better. I have more trouble against some "friendly" Orks list than I do against "competitive" Marines
Stone crushers have a 2+ save, regeneration (and re-roll 1's when regenerating), and add +1 to building damage results. For 195 they're a bit pricier than a stock fex with cclaws and regen, but the 2+ save really helps out as does their super regeneration.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/06/29 14:24:13
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: Well it just seemed unlikely tome that you missed everything else, but if that is the case then thanks for your contribution. Maybe just check a little before coming off like all the statistical info that was discussed is just irrelevant in comparison to your advice, you can't be in that much of a hurry, every post you type is pretty large. I would more than welcome some fresh ideas to deal with Cents if you have any, gargpit is actually one of the better ones I've heard in a while.
Will do.
With regards to dealing with Centurions on a more general level, we aren't really equipped very well to deal with them. Smallish 3-man units is not as big a prob. However, when they start to go deathstar on us - with Tiggy, buffed-up Chapter Master, 4-5 centurions and possibly Inquisiton allies - that is a conundrum for which there is no easy answer. All you can really do is to focus your entire army to try to take them down. Some strategies include:
- Weight of fire from flyrants and others. Move your flyrant to where the Chapter Master isn't tanking and then shoot directly at the centurions themselves. I'm not sure if this is 100% viable anymore, but in previous edition, if the Chapter Master was on a bike, you could focus-fire to ignore units with cover saves in order to circumvent the CM to get to the centurions.
- Mawlocs.
- Exocrines.
- Try to tarpit them. Depending on their loadout and the psychic powers that the IC's in the units have, this may be easier said than done.
- Spammed flyers may work against them. Get multiple flyers in close to coordinate a multi-assault with several FMC's. You'd probably lose 1 flyer on the turn he hovers, but if you can get all your FMC's (and also nearby units like mawlocs, exocrines, gargoyles, etc.) into assault, you just may wipe out the unit.
- Or just ignore them, lose 1 unit a turn, and then focus on the rest of the Marine army.
Since gate got moved to Santic, is Tiggy still the force multiplier that he once was in 6th? I was thinking Coteaz would be the preferred escort. The only Centstar player I know takes 2 Land Raiders, 2 centurion squads, and Draigo, and that has been his list for years. I haven't played him for logistical reasons, and because he only plays 2000 points and Kill points, so he has a fixed advantage especially against tyranids. I figured I would try him once I got up to 3 Crones and an Exocrine, or bring my Eldar allies. I figure he can't be a terribly good player if he has to put that many restrictions on his games.
Also, assault with FMC's isn't a terribly viable option anymore. You've got to land for a full turn before you assault. Better off vector striking and throwing warp lances / general wounds at them. 7th has really changed the way we have to play our FMCs.
2014/06/29 15:04:48
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Yeah MCs and FMCs are definitely worse. We are paying a lot for that WS7 and 4 attacks on a Flyrant for it to see very little use now.
That AP2 cover ignoring Vektor Strike is definitely a good tool for Cents too. Especially since you can splitfire and point the Dakka somewhere more effecient. I guess that's a quasi buff for the Flyrant even if the Crone copped an undeniable nerf.
Smash changes also hurt us bad. I feel like we need to capitalise on what we gained, Master of Ambush is game changing if unreliable, I feel like having the 25% chance (or whatever it is) to practically autowin is worth building to take advantage of even if it doesn't happen more than it does. Fexes capitalise on this better than anything else, and go hand in hand with making up for the MASSIVE nerf in smash, Carnifexes being more than capable of acing any vehicle in CC.
To summarise, 7th changed a lot for us and I think we are better playing to what got better than struggling to make what got worse (namely Skyblight as a good example) still work without taking the proper coverage inside our list. Smash was nerfed, we can either play the same lists with less options for mech, or take Carnifexes that offer that same coverage while also receiving a quasi-buff in the fact that we have a re-rollable chance to give 4x Carnifexes AND something else Infiltrate. 800 pts of short range slaughter hitting turn 1 combined with Flyrant dakka. Twin linked Warlord traits benefit us more than anybody. And it is by no means relies on it either, Dakkafexes just got so much more important this edition, the traits are just an added bonus.
7th also helped to give Zoeys an extra use or two as well, and they now play very well to what we do best.
I think 7th made us a bit more cohesive as an army to be honest (not necessarily stronger, just helped divide units into their roles and play styles).
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Hive Fleet Grootslang 
might even be useful vs AV14 under certain circumstances
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
