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2014/11/20 01:07:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Well, I do agree with everything you said. Our troops are crappy, but mandatory, and I think Horm should maybe even get an A or a B for being one of our best choice for the slot alot of the time since it is a mandatory, hes a great choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 01:14:48
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/20 01:16:51
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Carnifexes Background When one thinks of a Tyranid army, one of the first models to come to mind is the Carnifex. One of the most iconic Tyranid models to be in existance, especially in 4th edition where Carnifexes could also be taken in Elites. As fifth edition came out, they became redundant with the arrival of the new Trygon and lack of option to be taken as an Elite and slowly started to gather dust. Following the arrival of 6th edition, Carnifexes were hailed as one of the shining stars of the Codex, getting a notable points decrease as well as being able to take multiples in a brood, opening up Heavy Support options. As 7th edition rolled out they came to be the only Monstrous Creature in the Tyranid Codex that wasn't nerfed by the changes to Smash, making use of it's standard base 9 Strength to deal with anything that comes across its path.
Competitive Setting A Carnifex Brood uses one of the Heavy Support slots in a Tyranid army. It follows a standard TMC statline, with WS3, BS3, T6 with a 3+ Armour Save. As it does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it will revert to Instinctive Behaviour outside of Synapse, of which the Carnifex rolls on the Feed table. Where the Carnifex starts to differ is that it only has 4 Wounds, making it not as durable as other TMC's and is Initiative 2, meaning that it strikes at the same speed as the lowly Ork and is out sped by anything that isn't a Power Fist or equivalent. However, where it lacks in speed, it makes up for in sheer brutality, sporting 3 attacks at base S9. Combined with it's Living Battering Ram special rule that grants it D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of one, this makes it one of the premier options that Tyranids have for opening AV13/14.
Melee Weapons Scything Talons - Carnifexes come equipped with two pairs of Scything Talons. Although being nerfed, they do allow for customization of a Carnifex by exchanging a pair for Wargear upgrades.
For those that want to keep Carnifexes cheap, this is a good option.
Crushing Claws - Crushing Claws grants a Carnifex S10 in Close Combat (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), allowing it to Instant Kill T5 as well as giving it the Armourbane USR, making it more likely to Penetrate AV13-14.
For Carnifexes designed for vehicle hunting, this is a good option.
Monstrous Bio-Cannons Twin-Linked Deathspitter - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Deathspitter, granting it three 18" TL shots at S5 AP5. This is not very good, especially when taken in context, it is outclassed by another Monstrous Biocannon.
This is a bad option.
Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech worms - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Devourer with Brainleech Worms, granting it six 18" TL shots at S6 AP-. This allows a Carnifex to be multi-purpose, wounding Infantry through number of shots, as well as Light Armour and in emergencies, ground based AA.
This is a good option.
Stranglethorn Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Stranglethorn Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S6 AP5 Large Blast, Pinning Shot. The Stranglethorn Cannon may only be taken once per model and may not be taken with the Heavy Venom Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to act as a Infantry killer and support smaller Tyranids by potentially making it harder to shoot at them. However, with a Carnifexes bad Ballistic Skill, it might scatter off the target and is in general, outclassed by Biovores, who give three Large Blast Templates at a large ranger for the price of a standard Carnifex.
This is a bad option.
Heavy Venom Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Heavy Venom Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S9 AP4 Blast. Only one Heavy Venom Cannon may be taken per model and may not be taken with the Stranglethorn Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to fire a single S9 shot before it charges a vehicle, making it easier to wreck vehicles, as well as Instant Killing T4. For Carnifexes designed for Vehicles-hunting, this could be the last glancing hit you need to wreck that vehicle.
This is a decent option.
Biomorphs Toxin Sacs A Carnifex with Toxin Sacs has the Poisoned USR. This, combined with the natural S9 of the Carnifex, will normally allow it to re-roll failed to Wound rolls. However, the Carnifex only has 3 attacks base and WS3, meaning you might not get to make use of the re-roll to wounds.
This is a decent option.
Acid Blood A Carnifex with Acid Blood the ability to inflict a S5 AP2 hit per unsaved wound in Close Combat. This looks quite good, until you realise the Carnifex only has four Wounds, as well as the opponent having to take an Initiative before the hit can apply.
This is a bad option.
Adrenal Glands. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands has the Fleet and Furious Charge USR. This allows a Carnifex to have S10 on the charge (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), as well as re-roll Run and Charge distances. This makes getting into combat much easier and combined with the Onslaught Psychic Power, allows Carnifexes to get into position quickly to start firing any Ranged Weapons they have.
This is a good option.
Regeneration. A Carnifex with Regeneration has the ability to regain lost wounds at the end of the game turn on a 4+. This looks promising, until one realizes it is the least durable Monstrous Creature that Tyranids have, on virtue of it having the fewest amount of Wounds (aside the Hive Tyrant, which can mitigate this with the Catalyst Psychic Power and Wings for a FMC profile) and only has a 3+ armour save coupled with it's Toughness characteristic of 6, meaning it can be focused fired down before it can make use of Regeneration.
This is a bad option.
Tail Biomorphs Thresher Scythe - A Carnifex with a Thresher Scythe may make an additional S4 AP4 attack with the Rending special rule in close combat. Considering that the Carnifex that is in combat is usually geared for vehicle killing, this is not likely to help.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - A Carnifex with a Bone Mace may make an additional S8 AP - attack in close combat. They cost the same as Crushing Claws which will more reliably open vehicles, but if you feel that you are not destroying vehicles enough, it grants additional attack that may cause that final glancing hit.
This is a decent option.
Options Additional Carnifexes - a Carnifex Brood may take up to two more Carnifexes. This allows a Tyranid player to shift Carnifexes around for Wound allocation purposes making the brood more durable, as well as have more Carnifexes without using up the Heavy Support slots. Any Carnifex brood consisting of two or three Carnifexes can not make use of the Tyrannocyte, making this option a speed vs durability argument.It is important to note however, that any Carnifex Brood with two or three models, are vulnerable to the harshest Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
Spine Banks - A Carnifex with Spine Banks may fire one 8" shot at S3 AP- Blast and is treated as having Assault Grenades. This is generally not worth it as the damage output is so low and Carnifexes have a low Initiative to begin with.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma - A Carnifex with Bio=Plasma may fire one 12" shot at S7 AP2 Blast. This is better than Spine Banks as you can wound a lot more stuff. It is still a bit pricey however and for thirty points more, one can purchase an Exocrine, which has a larger blast or six shots at double the range and when stationary, a better BS.
This is a decent option.
Transport Tyrannocyte As soon as the Tyrannocyte was announced, there was much rejoicing amongst Tyranid players. Tyrannocytes give much needed speed to Tyranids, which allows Carnifexes to move up even faster than before. Note that only one MC model can embark the Tyrannocyte upon deployment. Tyrannocytes work best when a model can immedietly do something upon deployment, such as shoot or provide Synapse so is not the best option for all Carnifexes.
For single Carnifexes with Ranged Weapons, this is a good option.
For single Carnifexes with Melee only weapons, this is a decent option.
For Carnifexes with long range weapons (HVC or SC) or broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms - can be taken alone to fit in a Tyrannocyte or in multiples for more firepower, this type of Carnifex, known as the 'Dakkafex' spits out a large number of shots which shave wounds off units. Adrenal Glands are an optional extra to allow it to more reliable deal with vehicles or move into position.
Carnifex w/ Scything Talons, Crushing Claws - This type of Carnifex commonly has two more standard Carnifexes for ablative wounds, as they move up the battlefield looking for the highest AV vehicles and destroying them with ease. Adrenal Glands are not a necessity as the Crushing Claws variant can reliably deal with high AV vehicles and you normally have ablative wounds for your Crushing Claws Carnifex.
Carnifex w/ 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - The 'Screamer-Killer' is a basic Carnifex. It can either be taken in multiples for more Wounds to chew through, or as a single unit
Stone Crusher Carnifexes From Forge World, Stone Crusher Carnifexes are even stronger than regular Carnifexes, boasting S10 on their base statline. This becomes even better when you consider the fact they also have Living Battery Ram, as well as their own special rules, Wrecker, Sunder and Carapace Chitin-rams. This gives all Hammer of Wrath attacks Armourbane and Monster Hunter, meaning they can put wounds on MC and vehicles alike. Wrecker and Sunder is what really sets them apart from Carnifexes, they are allowed to re-roll all failed Armour Penetration rolls, as well as add one to the result if against immobile structures and fortifications (on top of the +2 granted by the Wrecker Claws AP1 value) when using their Wrecker Claws. Although the Stone Wrecker Carnifex has less attacks than the Carnifex (two compared to three) any attack that goes through is more than likely going to cause an Explodes! result. As a trade off for their close combat power, they have no access to Monstrous Biocannons.
While having an identical profile to the Carnifex (Trading an attack for Strength 10 aside), they are more durable then Carnifexes, due to their Reinforced Caraspace special rule, which makes any shooting attacks resolved against a Stone Crusher Carnifex reduce their Strength by one. Essentially, this means the Stone Crusher Carnifex is T7 against shooting attacks (note this does not apply to close combat attacks).
Stone Crusher Carnifexes upgrades Additional Stone Crusher Carnifexes - like regular Carnifexes, additional Carnifexes may be taken for Wound allocation purposes. Considering that they are Toughness 7 against shooting attacks, this will prolong the life of Stone Crusher Carnifexes considerably. As mentioned in the Tyrannocyte entry for Carnifexes, models that can do something upon Deep Strike arrival are good. Stone Crusher Carnifexes have the durability to run up the field and bear the brunt of most weapons, especially with Shrouded support. Note that broads of two or more Stone Crusher Carnifexes are vulnerable to the worst result on the Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Stone Wrecker Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
Spine Banks - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma -Generally not worth it since a Stone Wrecker Carnifex does not want to be targetting Infantry.
This is a bad option.
Thresher Scythe - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - Unlike regular Carnifexes, Stone Wrecker Carnifexes do not require help destroying vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail replaces their ability to re-roll amour penetration on their regular attacks with the ability to cause Instant Death and gain a new rule, Sweep Attack. Sweep Attack allows a model to replace all their attacks with a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them. This allows a Stone Crusher Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail to generate more attacks and stops it being tarpitted as easily, while the trade off is that they may find it harder to destroy vehicles.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of two or three models, this is a good option.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of one model, this is a decent option.
Transport Much like a regular Carnifex, a single Stone Crusher Carnifex can embark on a Tyrannocyte. However, a Stone Wrecker Carnifex has more durability than a regular Carnifex and can forgo a Transport in favour of running up. Note however, that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex can not usse Adrenal Glands at all, so it is still quite slow in that regard, meaning the Tyrannocyte can provide the speed that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex needs in order to do damage.
For single Stone Wrecker Carnifexes, this is a good option.
For Stone Wrecker Carnifex broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claws - A standard Stone Wrecker Carnifex does a fine job of destroying vehicles without any upgrades.
Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail should only be taken in groups of two or more, as it prevents a heavily points invested unit being tarpitted easily.
Conclusion and Overall Rating
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids. The Carnifex can be kitted out for different roles, making it a multi-purpose unit, which is useful in the case that you may not always be playing against vehicles. The Carnifex just falls short of being an all-star by a reliance on Synapse to function well, as well as requiring support from other Tyranids to provide it with a cover save, or to simply draw fire away from it as it is fragile in comparison to other TMCs.
Stone Crusher Carnifex Overall Rating = B
While the Stone Crusher Carnifex is the best answer Tyranids have to heavy vehicle duties, it's role is very linear and does not allow much adaptability. It also suffers from requiring Synapse to be effective and even with pseudo Toughness 7, is still quite vulnerable to volume of fire with only four wounds.
A+ Job on that.
2014/11/20 01:20:15
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Alright. I will go ahead and add in a bit more for them and see if I can't get it done in a better light. Jim, it looks like your going to have to update the first post to take these changes into account. Sorry.
Tyranid Prime:
The Tyranid Prime is the cheap mans HQ. It is not a Tyrant. It will not wade into a horde of soldiers and kill anything with impunity. It will not easily kill any major special characters and most generics that have been kitted out. The Tyranid Prime is not there to lead the horde from the front, but to support it.
1. It is the only Independent Character left in the codex.
2. It is one of the few to have the option to buy assault grenades.
3. It is moderately versatile.
4. Its cheap.
Lets be frank.You took this because its cheap. You didn't take it for durability because it has very little in that regard. A single lucky S10 hit is going to take him out. So, keep that in mind as you kit it because your looking at the only Tyranid HQ with a permanent kick me sign on it's much-more-expensive-this-edition back. If you are taking this, you had better be going for overkill in your other slots because you will need to pick up the slack.
To go into the basic options, you are looking at a Tyranid Warrior with boosted stat line but with some catches. The Tyranid Prime can only bring its stat line to real benefit inside a unit of Warriors who also benefit from several boosted stats. So, to put it bluntly, your paying the price of a Flyrant and then some for 12 wounds at majority toughness 4 with Look out Sir to keep your HQ alive. This will only make it a much larger target and fair easier to kill. So, why bother? Simple, Bio-artefacts. The Tyranid Prime can pick up the Miasma Cannon which with its stateline, is a fairly good option to get some shots in, and it can function in tandem with a small unit of warriors armed with a barbed strangler to ensure some good output. Beyond that, if you are feeling bold, the Norn Crown is an expensive but useful option to put on this thing. Just make sure to not go overboard on options, because this thing will have quite a bit gunning for it. For close combat, a light approach of Maw Claws of Thyrax, Flesh Hooks, and a Lashwhip and Bonesword will carry it through most conflicts fairly comfortably at 160 points with some good benefits if it goes hunting characters.
For transportation purposes, it can use a Trygon tunnel or a pod at a cost. The best option is to take a pod with a small retinue of 3-4 warriors and use them like a tactical squad of terminators. Upon landing, use the boosted ballistic skill to fire into whatever your target it, and prepare for assault in the next turn. The pod can also make up for the lack of bodies because it also has multiple devourers to help weaken the enemy unit. If you upgraded your retinue's melee weapons to rending claws, you can get a bit more mileage out of them and hopefully wipe out a unit in the following turn. Another option in the pod in a group of 17 toxigaunts which their Prime babysitter. A LW/BS and Scything Talon combination will cause large amounts of concern to high toughness multi-wound models. The Prime is given plenty of ablative wounds and the toxigaunts are ensured to make it into assault without risking a fall back or mauling each other, which helps ensure that whatever this unit is dedicated to taking down is tarpitted and killed.
Grades: A (Miasma Prime), B+ (Pod Prime), C (Vanilla)
Pyrovore:
The Pyrovore has long been infamous as quite possibly the worst unit in the codex and the game at large. Happily, that is no longer the case, and it serves as a fairly loose middle road.
1. It has reliable firepower for clearing objectives and hordes.
2. It benefits from the Promethium relay, which can support it in either a defensive or offensive capacity.
The major weakness of the Pyrovore lies in its mobility. Unfortunately, the Pyrovore just happens to be an incredibly slow moving platform with very little in the way for options to get around faster. However, once kitted out with some transportation, they can actually become far more effective. Each of them is armed with a heavy flamer, so going after hordes is generally the most commonly accepted method of use, however they can also get a good bit of mileage out of going after dedicated assault units. Setting a nice juicy unit of Terminators on fire is going to make back a fair portion of its points back, and then the terminators are going to have to consider the following. Do I assault 3 flamers and take 3d3 automatic overwatch hits, or ignore them and get flamed every turn?
The only reliable transport options for Pyrovores are to take Trygon tunnels or hitching a ride inside a pod. Now, taking a pod is cheaper than the Trygon and waiting subsequent turns and gives it more time on the field to earn back points. It also seems to be the much better tactic in that you can hug it and force your opponent into a multi-assault. Eating a nest of devourers plus a group of 3 flamers in overwatch is going to be a bit much for most standard units that these things will be pitted against and it should allow you to either kill or tarpit the unit for several turns. Promethium Relays will give your Pyrovores some range, but these fortifications are stationary and as long as your opponent avoids it, there is very little your Pyrovores can do to help make back points. This would only be recommended in a defensive scenario. When dealing with enemies in entrenched cover, Pyrovores are one of the most cost effective ways to force them out. Things get even better when dealing with a rush of light vehicles that are open topped, capable of damaging the vehicles and dealing d6 wounds to the unit inside. But the best part of all is that the Pyrovore itself is an Elite choice rather than Heavy Support. As it currently stands, the HQ, FA, and HS organizational chart areas are currently among the top areas of interest to Tyranid Players, which means that you won't have to think too hard about devoting a slot to this pyrotechnics display.
Grades: A (Podvores), B+ (Promvores), C (Vanilla)
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/11/20 01:20:59
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
That is a letdown. Skytryrant Looks interesting. Hypertoxic node is bad, Neural Node is trash, Sporefield is Skytide looks ho-hum.
I was hoping for 2-3 good formations. Unfortunately there appears to be only one that is worthwhile.
Uh Hypertoxic Node is looking to be quite the hidden gem here. Not only does it add several useful units outside the normal FOC, but they get some decent buffs too.
Remember that Hypertoxic rule will affect all melee attacks for the formation, toxic miasma and the miasma cannon. That's a lot of instant death. I'd be running the toxicrene in a pod, the venoms singly throughout the army and a Flyrant with miasma and thorax weapons for lots of template fun. It's a good way to get past heavy use of cover saves and FNP.
2014/11/20 01:22:16
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Haha, anyhow Thanks for shareing man! It's appreciated!
In regards to the 3 HQ's- I think I might be more excited of the prospect of running deathleaper as my warlord to keep him alive than I am a third Flyrant.
I mean, is a third Flyrant nessesary if you are running 2 already?
Here's an idea that might be fun. Run 3 flyrants and the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood! I bet that would make for a decent army.
luke1705 wrote: I actually can't believe that no one has said this yet - guys, in a standard BAO/2 source tournament (which most majors are) we could take FIVE FLYRANTS. FIVE. Is that the most balanced build? Probably not, and having a presence on the ground through Skyblight with "only" four Flyrants is probably better. But FIVE. Wave serpents, watch out. We can apparently spam now too
I'll definitely jump on some of those unit analyses, but I'm on my phone right now. Just had to say that haha
Ouch.
Personally, I wouldn't take more than 4 at 1850. Flyrants need support even though they are the most flexible unit in the game. Just like I wouldn't overdo it with riptides in a Tau army. No matter how good a unit is, it needs support and "role-players" in the army to do the task that the flyrant won't do well (like landing on a objective just to hold it). You need other units in the army to do do the "grunt" or "dirty" work while the flyrants mainly go on the offensive.
I'm getting these off a Tyranid facebook group, someone got it early and was kind enough to post pictures for us all to see
I guess I could do a full 360 degree rotation, I'd be bound to point at them at some point
Annnnd stop.
No not me!!
Haha, anyhow Thanks for shareing man! It's appreciated!
In regards to the 3 HQ's- I think I might be more excited of the prospect of running deathleaper as my warlord to keep him alive than I am a third Flyrant.
I mean, is a third Flyrant nessesary if you are running 2 already?
No, I think 2 is necessary, 3 is a valid option but 2 most of the time cover some very important roles sufficiently. Nothing wrong with 3 of course, but the third isn't anywhere near as mandatory as that 2nd one often is.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/20 01:29:00
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
rollawaythestone wrote: How do you count five? Are you thinking Hive Fleet Detachment and Combined Arms Detachment?
Hivefleet, allies and formation? can you take both allies and formation using BAO format?
Nope. It's either one or the other. There is a maximum of 2 detachments only, not just for the BAO but for almost all the major tournaments here in the US.
luke1705 wrote: Tyranids have two. Am I mistaken? Does leviathan count as its own combined arms detachment? Can we not take Codex: Tyranids primary and leviathan as another source without going dual cad?
It looks completely legal to me.
I'm confirm it with Reece (the BAO/LVOTO) the next time I see him, but currently, you can take 5 flyrants in their system (and in most tournament systems as well).
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids.
This seems like the complete opposite description of why to take a Carnifex, almost every build already has two Flyrants that do exactly this and little else offensively. In fact, the only reason Carnifexes aren't autoinclude is because Flyrants (who are in pretty much every way, Carnifexes with Wings and Synapse) are a must have for Synapse and mobility, and further points spent on S6 Dakka MIGHT be a little redundant over things like AP2 blasts and cover ignoring weaponry, tarpits, heavy assault, etc, depending on your build. Carnifex is still an awesome model and maybe the most spammable unit in the dex, at the end of the day, the reason to take it is because you feel you have your bases covered well enough and he's probably the most cost efficient source of damage output in the dex. There's no way he isn't an A+ model or just an A at worst, he is at the very top tier of the power level of individual units in our dex. Flyrant may have Synapse and wings but he pays 100 pts more for it (and is also an A+ model). I usually agree with what you say Frozo, I just think you might have missed the mark a bit with this tactica.
Tyran wrote: Can you buy Fighter Ace for a Harridan?
No, the Harridan is a Flying Gargantuan Creature, not a FMC.
@SHUPPET, I marked it as a A- as it does have some drawbacks that I mentioned, like needing Synapse to function (or else it may not make use of it's ranged weapons for a turn) and it is the least durable TMC (Maleceptor, what Maleceptor) that Nids have. Even with these drawbacks, it's still a fantastic unit and one of the top HS options.
That said, people have commented on my post and I do intend to edit it when I have a more time on my hands.
I think the difference between an A and an A- is like splitting hairs. Both are already very good. Also, there will be some subjectivity in these reviews, as different people have different experiences with certain units. That is why I included both Spoletta's and tag8833's views on the hormagant into the tactica, as they both offered somewhat contrasting viewpoints. But I don't see enough of a difference here between the 2 different views on the carnifex to warrant a change.
However, people are free to write up their own complete review of a unit and I will include it into the main tactica as a contrasting counterpoint/comparison. Also, the author is free to change his mind on his review and to edit it due to "persuasions" from other members of the community.
@Frozocone
BTW, the Harridan can benefit from the Fighter Ace. A GFMC is also a FMC and uses all of the FMC rules, with additional rules granted by the Gargantuan MC rule.
SHUPPET wrote: Could you take the Hive Fleet detachment twice and bring 6?
No. None of the tournaments allow you to take the same Detachment or same Formation twice. That is why no Dual-CAD, but you can take Single-CAD + Hive Fleet detachment to run 5 flyrants.
Iechine wrote: A little over two years ago my wife and I started playing Warhammer. Tyranids were a motley crew, with 2 Tyrants and tervigons abound recommended. Your best bet was Trygons in the heavy support.
Now...theres a gajillion bizarre ass rules to make a list. It makes me feel like a new player all over again, Warhammer has gotten ridiculous.
It's ironic. The more "choices" you are given, the harder it becomes to make up one's mind. That's essentially what's happening with us Tyranid players. All of a sudden, instead of just a very few competitive choices, we have a lot more diversity for what we can run competitively and it's getting confusing, or as some may call it, ridiculous.
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Tag,
I think you may be one of the people who plays maelstrom more than most others on this forum. Maybe your contribution could be amending or giving an addendum to some units based on the differences in their usefulness in Maelstrom. I'll be honest - the closest I usually get to Maelstrom is still modified maelstrom of some sort (BAO secondaries, etc) and that is just not the same thing.
Frozocone,
I haven't read the fighter ace rules in detail, but gargantuan creatures are a subset of monstrous creatures. Can't be a gargantuan creature and not a monstrous creature. You can argue semantics that gargantuan creatures are a more specific subset of monstrous creatures, which are not given permission to be fighter aces. However, if being a monstrous creature is the only pre-requisite, then by RAW they're in. That being said, I think they actually benefit from it less than our other bugs. You're just not going to kill a harridan. 1-2 are useless, literally. And it really doesn't need another wound, or the ability to out-maneuver enemy fighters. MAYBE if you could pick the upgrade (thereby guaranteeing 5-6) for a harridan it would be nice, but as as? Nah
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
Now this is only my opinion, but one of my personal criterias for an A+ rating is this - is the unit basically an auto-include in the army? The carnifex, while very good (easily an A or A-), unfortunately suffers from being in an over-crowded slot. Basically, if the carnifex was A+ material, then I don't really even need to consider the other units in that slot. However, the carnifex has to compete against the likes of the mawloc, biovores, exocrines and t-fexes (well, mainly the mawloc). When I pick my Heavies, I need to seriously consider which unit I should take, the dakkafex or the mawloc?
Just something to think about.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 02:10:29
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in.
Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list.
Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis.
2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles.
3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining.
4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said:
a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted.
b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire.
c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
1) The best scorers in the codex. Their mobility enhancements allows them to move 13.5" on average. They can get to an objective anywhere on the board in 2 turns and do so reliably, and score it when they get there thanks to Objective secured. They aren't Eldar Jetbike good, but they are close.
2) Board Control. This may mean congalining across multiple objectives to contest them, or getting in the way of an imperial knight, or other deathstar. They are a unit that can move past midfield on turn one, and push the opponent to the outside and edges of the board.
3) Objective Denial. Even a min squad can stretch across multiple objectives to deny them.
4) MC Protection. Hormagaunts are a good screening unit because they move faster than anything they can screen. They are also an assault denial unit. By placing themselves between an MC and a unit that would like to assault it they can prevent assaults and frustrate opponents allowing MC's to continue putting out damage.
5) The Anvil. While Hormagaunts are the best scorers available to Tyranids, they also have the ability to neutralize enemy shooting. Even a min squad can hold up most shooty units for a turn until something killy can get there to deal with it. Thanks to their smaller base and profile, hormagants are even better at this than gargoyles because they usually won't deny a charge to the heavies coming behind them. Against many things, a malanthrope can offer enough hammer to deal with the shooty unit.
6) Deployment Aid. Why do Tyranids fear drop pods? Because they don't have enough hormagants and gargoyles. By spacing them out around your MC's you can deny drop pods the position that they would like to alpha strike.
7) Cover Saves. When there is no terrain to hide in, Hormagants can become mobile terrain. Thanks to their low cost, and low threat profile, they aren't likely to take fire.
8) Assault linking. If you have a model capable of chalking up wounds, you can send that model into some kroot, and the hormagants can multi-assault a riptide and the kroot allowing you to quickly eliminate potential threats.
9) MSU. Unlike Termagants, Hormagants can quickly spread out across the board giving your opponents a rough time tracking them down.
10) Drawing Fire. In many situations Hormagants can be used to successfully draw fire away from MC's. If they contest an important objective, or just get in the way, suddenly shots must be wasted on them. With a Malanthrope sidekick, they are always more durable than expected, and thanks to the decent squad sizes they can congaline into terrain or out of Line of Sight.
Other ways to run hormagants.
1) Wraith Knight's nightmare: 20 hormagants with Toxin sacs strike fear into the hearts of many MC's and elite infantry.
2) Transport Killer: 15 hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands can deal with most transports in the game, and also are better equipped to kill MEQ than Poison gants. On average it will take 9 AG Gants to kill a 3 hullpoint vehicle with back armor 10.
3) The Tarpit: 20+ Hormagants with no upgrades can tarpit walkers easily. A good Solution to kill Elite infantry.
4) Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard. 17 hormagants w/ a Tyranid prime in a Tyrannocyte. They can give the prime fleet, ablative wounds, and extra attacks to deal with 2+ armor.
Grades: A (Maelstrom Winner). B (Wraith Knight's Nightmare). B- (Transport Killer). B (The Tarpit), C (Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard)
Good points! A little more emphatic then I usualy am, but well reasoned
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/11/20 02:38:52
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Also (not contesting just asking) what is the Psychic Support added by Warriors? SitW? I know its probably super obvious just wondering what I'm missing for it to be labelled as a dotpoint
I think what he meant to say was Synapse Support. I'll go back and modify his review to reflect that. As we all all know, Tyranid Warriors aren't psychic.
That is a letdown. Skytryrant Looks interesting. Hypertoxic node is bad, Neural Node is trash, Sporefield is Skytide looks ho-hum.
I was hoping for 2-3 good formations. Unfortunately there appears to be only one that is worthwhile.
Uh Hypertoxic Node is looking to be quite the hidden gem here. Not only does it add several useful units outside the normal FOC, but they get some decent buffs too.
Remember that Hypertoxic rule will affect all melee attacks for the formation, toxic miasma and the miasma cannon. That's a lot of instant death. I'd be running the toxicrene in a pod, the venoms singly throughout the army and a Flyrant with miasma and thorax weapons for lots of template fun. It's a good way to get past heavy use of cover saves and FNP.
I agree, it can be quite good.
However, personally, I don't see myself running this formation. I don't believe in Assault nids unless it is with the dimachaeron, whose 4+ Instant Death is still better than the toxicrene's 5+ ID.
SHUPPET wrote: Pyrovores part is really well written thanks Unyielding
Personally, I don't believe podvores are worth an 'A' grade (wouldn't give it more than a 'B' ever), but then I try not to influence the author's reviews unless I really disagree with their assessment.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 02:41:03
Sinful Hero wrote: In case anyone was worried-this was posted in the N&R thread. It appears the Tyrannocyte doesn't use the top of the Mucolid(as a lot of us already assumed), so it'll be easy to get a Mucolid and a Tyrannocyte out of the same box. Perhaps eBay will sell the tops cheap as well.
Lord Scythican wrote: Just a quick shout out for people with Mucolid woes. I am making Tyrannocytes out of the newly released kit and using green stuff to replace the missing tentacles for the Mucolids. Stop by my WIP thread for some coverage:
On topic...I can't wait to get that new Broodlord. I have a space hulk one and another converted from my bitz box, but the new one looks pretty rad.
Thanks for the shout out Sinful Hero! I plan on updating that thread a lot. For those with Mucolid woes, just make the Tyrannocyte and green stuff the tentacles.
2014/11/20 02:46:13
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Frozocrone wrote: Quick note about Synapse, it depends on the unit type. For example, Mawlocs don't really care about Feed being a single model and actually benefit if they roll for Rage. Same with Exocrine and Hunt, it still gets to shoot it's big gun and can't Go to Ground, avoiding the worst result.
When I talk about Carnifexes, they have the option to buy more Carnifex or Biocannons. Their IB, Feed, directly effects their ability to shoot their weapons, meaning with a bad roll you can lose 30 points worth of shooting if you take Devourers, which is a lot of firepower. If taking more than one in a Brood, they become vulnerable to the worst IB for Feed. In my eyes, this cannot qualify for A+ status. A status, at best (but as I said, it's can be focused down quite easily only having four wounds) which formed the basis of my A- grading. It's still a versatile unit that provides a lot of good options for Tyranids so A tier was the minimum you can really put it in.
I would like the rest of the communities opinion on this, I am taking notes all around and will change it if their is a general opinion they should be rated higher than A-. Truth be told, I think it sits on the border between A and A-, but I'm a harsh critic and went for A-.
BTW, are we all in agreement for Stone Crushers?
I agree on A-, they are Awesome, but they have flaws...
So to just say, "they are great anti-AV 13/14, take these guys and your mech problems are solved" is incredibly misleading (and that is the implication when you give a unit an A+ rating and say "it's good anti-armor").
Yup. Please show me, where I have said anything even resembling this statement, during the entire duration of this thread from the first page onwards. It's not what I've ever implied.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: Quick note about Synapse, it depends on the unit type. For example, Mawlocs don't really care about Feed being a single model and actually benefit if they roll for Rage. Same with Exocrine and Hunt, it still gets to shoot it's big gun and can't Go to Ground, avoiding the worst result.
When I talk about Carnifexes, they have the option to buy more Carnifex or Biocannons. Their IB, Feed, directly effects their ability to shoot their weapons, meaning with a bad roll you can lose 30 points worth of shooting if you take Devourers, which is a lot of firepower. If taking more than one in a Brood, they become vulnerable to the worst IB for Feed. In my eyes, this cannot qualify for A+ status. A status, at best (but as I said, it's can be focused down quite easily only having four wounds) which formed the basis of my A- grading. It's still a versatile unit that provides a lot of good options for Tyranids so A tier was the minimum you can really put it in.
I would like the rest of the communities opinion on this, I am taking notes all around and will change it if their is a general opinion they should be rated higher than A-. Truth be told, I think it sits on the border between A and A-, but I'm a harsh critic and went for A-.
BTW, are we all in agreement for Stone Crushers?
In which case I think the Flyrant should be marked down as well, because it's only so good on the fact that it has Synapse, which might just end up being ineffecient points at times, at least enough to take the unit down to an A-.
This is a silly way to look at units, and most circumstances its an excellent thing that Carnifex is not paying the prices that Tyrants do for their Synapse, just as most circumstances make Flyrant an excellent Synapse carrier. this and should not be looked at as a negative to either unit.
Moderate nit-pick, but Flyrants don't just pay for Synapse, and Wings...they also are ML 2 Psychers...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 02:51:36
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/11/20 03:02:17
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Your tentacles on the mucolids are really well done.
Thank you very much! I have tried to detail what I have done to get a Mucolid out of the kit if you build a Tyrannocyte. We all have a chance to get what we want out of this kit, so if any of my tips help then I am pleased!
2014/11/20 03:14:10
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Moderate nit-pick, but Flyrants don't just pay for Synapse, and Wings...they also are ML 2 Psychers...
I'm aware of that, but that really doesn't stand to do a huge amount at all consistently, and hardly more relevant that Carnifexes being brilliant tank destroyers in CC which I also didn't include
Personally, I don't believe podvores are worth an 'A' grade (wouldn't give it more than a 'B' ever), but then I try not to influence the author's reviews unless I really disagree with their assessment.
That's interesting. How have they played in your experience in the past month? Wondering how exactly they let you down and what units it was against, because all the logic behind them suggests they are about an A- to A, just a very good unit.
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
Now this is only my opinion, but one of my personal criterias for an A+ rating is this - is the unit basically an auto-include in the army? The carnifex, while very good (easily an A or A-), unfortunately suffers from being in an over-crowded slot. Basically, if the carnifex was A+ material, then I don't really even need to consider the other units in that slot. However, the carnifex has to compete against the likes of the mawloc, biovores, exocrines and t-fexes (well, mainly the mawloc). When I pick my Heavies, I need to seriously consider which unit I should take, the dakkafex or the mawloc?
Just something to think about.
Very true, and this is the one argument that could take Carnifex down from A+ to just an A imo. But the thing is, Carnifex IS better than all those units in the Heavy support slot, who are a bit more niche in their role and can be excluded once you have enough - e.g. there is little point to taking 3 Exocrines over turning at least one or two of those squads into Dakkafex.
The real question, what do I lose by taking a Flyrant? The answer is well, basically nothing, not much is really contesting very strongly for that position, and what do I lose by taking a Carnifex, and SOMETIMES that answer can be maybe the option of something important in that slot, as it can be much more contested if you don't have Biovore or Exocrine coverage. However LAN helps out with that amazingly though, but even without LAN I just don't think the opportunity cost associated with putting a Dakkafex in that HS slot is really enough to bring him down from A+, he's the best unit in that slot. I'll liken it to saying Flyrants are a hard pick because HQ slot has really important models - they ARE the important models. HS is a bit contested but the Dakkafex still comes out slightly above every other option, and some of the other options being A grade perfect tier models just pushes Carnifex into A+ tier. I won't argue any A tier branding of him however, there is a bit of subjectivity attached to all this discussion, but not far enough to give him A- that is just too harsh as he outweighs everything in his slot and practically everything in the army in terms of power level.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 03:20:28
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/20 03:17:40
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Ok, this is just a brief overview and my opinion of the new Tyranid Shield of Baal formations.
Hypertoxic Node:B
Any formation that allows you take an extra flyrant is always a good thing. And the fact that all those units in the formation can cause Instant Death makes it a formation to be feared in combat. Against the right opponents, this build can be devastatingly good.
However, Assault nids are not the best Tyranid builds currently. There are many armies who just don't care about assault nids - mech, MSU armies, armies with no or very few multi-wound units, flyer armies, very shooty armies, the list goes on.
Neural Node:D
While the formation does help out the maleceptor and zoans somewhat, where are you going to get all those psychic dice to cast all of those powers? This build will never run at peak efficiency due to the inherent problems with the maleceptor unit itself. There just isn't enough warp dice in the army for it. A turd is a turd, no matter how hard you try to polish it.
Skytyrant Swarm:C
This formation is great if you want to run a cc-tyrant. However, there are problems with it:
1. You are losing mobility advantage of the flyrant.
2. It forces you to run Assault bugs, which isn't the best Tyranid build to run competitively.
3. If the opponent issues a challenge, then the flyrant can't Look-Out-Sir the wounds away.
4. It's worth 3 VP's if you wipe out the unit.
Sporefield:B
It's somewhat hard to read the entry, but I think I actually like this formation. Re-spawning spores on a 4+? Yes, please! Too bad they don't score or deny. I just like how much of an annoyance they can be to the opposition.
Skyblight Swarm:B+
Been there, done it. A solid formation, even with some of its units nerfed in this edition.
Skytide:N/A
Much to expensive to be considered for normal games. Plus, I can't read its rules.
Hive Fleet Detachment:A
This will be the detachment that almost every Tyranid player will be using from now on. It has just become the gold standard for competitive Tyranids. 3 flyrants with the ability to add more through allies and other formations? It is a Tyranid player's wet dream come true. The 3 troops is a non-issue thanks to Mucolids. And while you lose ObSec, Adaptive Instincts is actually pretty decent. If you really want ObSec, then you can always run a Primary CAD or Skyblight to go with this detachment.
Personally, I don't believe podvores are worth an 'A' grade (wouldn't give it more than a 'B' ever), but then I try not to influence the author's reviews unless I really disagree with their assessment.
That's interesting. How have they played in your experience in the past month? Wondering how exactly they let you down and what units it was against, because all the logic behind them suggests they are about an A- to A, just a very good unit.
Ah....I knew your curious mind would challenge me on this.
To me, an 'A' unit is a unit that can and will consistently contribute to the Tyranid cause. While pyrovores in pods (podvores) can be very good for its role of anti-infantry, oftentimes it just won't contribute much. Why?
1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).
2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.
3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.
4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out
Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they fall flat on the face. That is why I will not give them an 'A'. This is how I would rank them:
Now this is only my opinion, but one of my personal criterias for an A+ rating is this - is the unit basically an auto-include in the army? The carnifex, while very good (easily an A or A-), unfortunately suffers from being in an over-crowded slot. Basically, if the carnifex was A+ material, then I don't really even need to consider the other units in that slot. However, the carnifex has to compete against the likes of the mawloc, biovores, exocrines and t-fexes (well, mainly the mawloc). When I pick my Heavies, I need to seriously consider which unit I should take, the dakkafex or the mawloc?
Just something to think about.
Very true, and this is the one argument that could take Carnifex down from A+ to just an A imo. But the thing is, Carnifex IS better than all those units in the Heavy support slot, who are a bit more niche in their role and can be excluded once you have enough - e.g. there is little point to taking 3 Exocrines over turning at least one or two of those squads into Dakkafex.
The real question, what do I lose by taking a Flyrant? The answer is well, basically nothing, not much is really contesting very strongly for that position, and what do I lose by taking a Carnifex, and SOMETIMES that answer can be maybe the option of something important in that slot, as it can be much more contested if you don't have Biovore or Exocrine coverage. However LAN helps out with that amazingly though, but even without LAN I just don't think the opportunity cost associated with putting a Dakkafex in that HS slot is really enough to bring him down from A+, he's the best unit in that slot. I'll liken it to saying Flyrants are a hard pick because HQ slot has really important models - they ARE the important models. HS is a bit contested but the Dakkafex still comes out slightly above every other option, and some of the other options being A grade perfect tier models just pushes Carnifex into A+ tier. I won't argue any A tier branding of him however, it''s all subjective, but A- is too harsh as he outweighs everything in his slot and practically everything in the army in terms of power level.
Here's the difference. Almost everyone runs dual flyrants competitively. However, not everyone runs dakkafexes competitively. When it comes to the Heavy slots, you see a wide range of units, from dakkafexes to mawlocs to t-fexes to LAN biovores and exocrines to no Heavy Support at all (because of formations)!
Yes, the carnifex is more well-rounded than most of the other units it competes against. However, it isn't so much head-&-shoulders above them all that you see it in every list as you do the flyrant. And that's what an 'A+' unit is to me, something you see on almost every Tyranid player's list. BTW, with the exception of the carnifex and the mawloc, I wouldn't give any of the other Heavy supports anything more than a 'B+' rating, though I would rate the biovore somewhere between 'A-/B+'.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 03:40:18
I've got a bunch of questions.
#1. On turn 2, you shot 5 lictors at 2 venoms and killed them both. So a Lictor shoots Flesh hooks at BS3. That means on average 1 hits. Flesh Hooks are strength 6. So 1/2 of all hits wound. Therefore, 5 lictors should cause 2 Venoms to make 2.5 Jinks most of the times. They would be lucky to kill 1 Venom. This is the same turn a Mawloc Exploded a ravager. Did you just roll lights out that turn?
#2. On turn 4, 2 units of spore mines assault some grotesques, and center the blast over the Succubus, I assume you mean over a spore mine that made base with the Succubus. Did he have the succubus out front so that you could make base with both groups of mines?
#3. Did you know Grotesques were Leadership 4? I have used psychic scream on them to very good effect in the past. Was that part of your strategy, or did you just get lucky?
#4. How did you warlord tank so many saves in combat with the Grotesques. Hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's with 4 attacks each, they should have been forcing quite a few saves, right?
2014/11/20 03:41:09
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
From what I could gather, the Sporefield Formation has 4+ return like Skyblight Gargoyles as well as Infiltrate.
Skytide looks like you get to re-roll your reserves for any of the formations that it posseses (Skyblight, Sporefield etc) so long as the SkyTyrant Hive Tyrant is alive.
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/20 03:42:17
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I also thought podvores were a curious choice for an A rating. Looking at something like the Hive Crone, which brings more durability, more mobility for cheaper, and more utility, we still probably wouldn't grade that an A. A B, maybe a B+, but I don't see the pros of the pyrovores being better than a hive crone.
Also, I looked over the force org for the Leviathan detachment again. I'm sticking to my guns but it looks legit. In the brb, a combined arms detachment has objective secured as a command benefit. Since leviathan sacrifices this, it is not considered a combined arms detachment. So it's no different than using say, a grey Knights strike force. I think 4 plus Skyblight is crazy though. Love it
2014/11/20 03:50:08
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
This formation is great if you want to run a cc-tyrant. However, there are problems with it:
1. You are losing mobility advantage of the flyrant.
2. It forces you to run Assault bugs, which isn't the best Tyranid build to run competitively.
3. If the opponent issues a challenge, then the flyrant can't Look-Out-Sir the wounds away.
4. It's worth 3 VP's if you wipe out the unit.
Wow. Really? Jink Confers. With 20+ Gargoyles you can conga line back to a Malanthrope, and jink for a 2+ cover save. There isn't much that can challenge out a Melee Flyrant and expect to survive, and with 20+ gargoyles, you should be able to arrange a charge to make sure your flyrant isn't in base combat to get challenged out in the first round if you happen to face a GUO with warp speed.
It is a neigh unkillable assault monster unit. If you like the Dimacharon, you should be over the moon on this guy.
2014/11/20 04:00:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Skytyrant seems a nice way to deliver a CC Tyrant into combat. ... Still, Dima in a pod is probably superior.
Also Luke may have a point, can we use a Leviathan detachment and a normal CAD detachment at the same time? Although that combination probably is going to be banned in tournaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 04:01:23
2014/11/20 04:05:40
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
This formation is great if you want to run a cc-tyrant. However, there are problems with it:
1. You are losing mobility advantage of the flyrant.
2. It forces you to run Assault bugs, which isn't the best Tyranid build to run competitively.
3. If the opponent issues a challenge, then the flyrant can't Look-Out-Sir the wounds away.
4. It's worth 3 VP's if you wipe out the unit.
Wow. Really? Jink Confers. With 20+ Gargoyles you can conga line back to a Malanthrope, and jink for a 2+ cover save. There isn't much that can challenge out a Melee Flyrant and expect to survive, and with 20+ gargoyles, you should be able to arrange a charge to make sure your flyrant isn't in base combat to get challenged out in the first round if you happen to face a GUO with warp speed.
It is a neigh unkillable assault monster unit. If you like the Dimacharon, you should be over the moon on this guy.
Only the flyrant has the jink rule for the 2+ cover. Gargoyles will only get normal cover if the flyrant LOS to them. I'm pretty sure jink doesn't confer, though Stealth and Shroud does. Rather, it is directional fire - put the flyrant in front for the 2+ cover to tank the shots.
BTW, the unit can be tied up in combat by another tarpit unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 04:07:09
Tyran wrote: Skytyrant seems a nice way to deliver a CC Tyrant into combat.
... Still, Dima in a pod is probably superior.
Also Luke may have a point, can we use a Leviathan detachment and a normal CAD detachment at the same time? Although that combination probably is going to be banned in tournaments.
Of course it will. GTs seem to always ban GW legal lists that favor tyranids.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/11/20 04:06:29
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Tyran wrote: Skytyrant seems a nice way to deliver a CC Tyrant into combat.
... Still, Dima in a pod is probably superior.
Also Luke may have a point, can we use a Leviathan detachment and a normal CAD detachment at the same time? Although that combination probably is going to be banned in tournaments.
It is legal currently, though whether it will be allowed or not in tournament play is another question.
The Tyranid Shrike is the faster brother to the Tyranid Warrior. While not as well armored, it more than makes up for this by being far more dangerous.
1. Highly mobile.
2. Has access to assault grenades
3. Psychic support for the army.
The Tyranid Shrike is the Fast Attack sibling to its more ground oriented brethren. The shrike has the exact same options as the Tyranid Warrior, but trades armor for incredible mobility. Boasting almost the same statline as warriors, Tyranid Shrikes are anything but. Their status as jump infantry allows them to quickly close the cap with most enemies. As it stands with their movement speed, you want to avoid putting bio-cannons on them. Bio-cannons allow for more relaxed and static gun play which completely negates the advantages of the unit. So there are really only 2 options for them as either shooters or close combat units. Shrikes can easily be a very cheap and effective shooting unit as they don't need much to keep them going. Much like warriors, you want to keep them in small units of between 3-5 to minimize damage. However, from there you can choose to allow them to deploy on the board in cover or go for a daring deepstrike in the following turns due to their winged nature. If your playing against a MSU opponent, nothing is going to make him drop that faster than the idea of his small, vulnerable squads being picked off by deepstriking multiwound infantry. After an opening salvo, you should have relatively little trouble in mopping up stragglers in assaults.
The other option available to the Tyranid Shrike is close combat, which is where they can truly come into their own. To take the idea to hand, outfit one of them with a LW/BS, 2 more with the standard rending claws, and keep the remaining 2 stock to conserve points. At this point, your going to have an opponent who is not going to be very happy about dealing with a unit that costs under 200 points but can handle most standard infantry. Even if you don't want to run those size broods, running 3 shrikes while one has rending claws and scything talons can lead to an impressive number of attacks on the charge against an unsuspecting unit. At worst though, is that with a bit of luck and modification of reserve rolls, a brood of shrikes can quickly become a linchpin in an assault from an unexpected quarter. A single brood of shrikes coupled with several full sized broods of gargoyles is going to be a threat few can ignore. Merely keep your shrikes in the center and fashion your gargoyle broods around them. With the number of wings around, you may just make it impossible for them to see them at best, or give them an ample cover save to ensure they stick around to direct the broods of Gargoyles.
Grades: B (DS Shrikes), C (Vanilla)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 04:10:43
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/11/20 04:14:24
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jy2 wrote: Only the flyrant has the jink rule for the 2+ cover. Gargoyles will only get normal cover if the flyrant LOS to them. I'm pretty sure jink doesn't confer, though Stealth and Shroud does. Rather, it is directional fire - put the flyrant in front for the 2+ cover to tank the shots.
BTW, the unit can be tied up in combat by another tarpit unit.
I see you've never played Jinking TWC. Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink."
Anything that can tarpit the Skytyrant can tarpit the Dimacharon easier and for longer. A Flyrant with RoO is doing 5 attacks base with 6 on the charge at initiative 8, WS 8, Strength 7, rerolling all failures to wound, and causing ID on 6's. 15 more points gets it preferred enemy, but probably isn't worth it.
Gargoyles are Poison (6+) when using their blind attack, and so can contribute a bit as well in most cases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 04:14:42
2014/11/20 04:14:30
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Hive Fleet Grootslang 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
A little more emphatic then I usualy am, but well reasoned 
