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Ok time to get the Dimachaeron review done:

Dimachaeron:

This model has more special rules than you can shake a stick at, but it essentially boils down to a giant close combat beatstick. He is the monster that the Swarmlord used to be, and then some. He is an amazing area denial unit. Most units in the game won't think about getting anywhere near him. With fleet and move through cover, he is looking at an average of a 15.5" threat range - meaning he will, on average, move and charge that far. I've found that most units have no desire to risk being within 18 at all, regardless of the odds. The sheer number of AP 2 attacks he has at a high weapon skill and initiative would scare most units, but adding instant death on a 4+, gaining d3 attacks when outnumbered, and an extra strength 10 ap 1 instant death autohit at I1 to give you FNP on a 4+ is just icing on the cake of death. His only issue is that he only moves 6". Big downer. Can't get to close combat until turn 3 at best realistically, unless you happen to also roll Master of Ambush.

Thankfully, this last issue has been solved with the advent of the Tyrannocyte, allowing the Dimachaeron to drop down and cause havoc after being exposed to only a single turn of fire. It costs more, but the Tyrannocyte itself has uses so it's not a bad deal at all. You plop down a unit that your opponent either has to deal with immediately, magically vacate his entire threat range, or sacrifice a unit a turn to. Unless your opponent is rocking storm shields/phase shifters, the Dimachaeron will not be tarpitted. And unless a close combat eternal warrior monster can whale on him for free (shield eternal chapter master in a squad, etc), he doesn't fear much of anything. Do the math - he is the only monster in our army who actually has to worry about killing too much and being shot up on your opponent's turn - if he doesn't get his I1 instant death hit, he can't gain FNP. That's a big deal, so try to finagle with smash if you need to in order to gain the correct exit turn/FNP/both. Most of the time, gaining the FNP is actually more important as you lack an invulnerable save, and a 3+ and 4+ FNP is nothing to sniff at.

He has some unique movement tricks with his leap ability, allowing him to leap over screening units (either in movement or, more likely, in the assault phase) and is one of the few models in our army that creates true target priority issues. Many armies will not have anything that can stand up to him in close combat. He has no guns, and in an age where getting into combat unscathed is increasingly difficult, this cannot be looked upon fondly. He is also not going to work in all armies. Dropping him in unsupported is a great way to lose a chunk of your army. But if you have multiple threats that penalize your opponent no matter what they focus on, he can certainly shine. It's also worth pointing out that he, like most of the rest of our army, has no access to grenades. So be careful when you move to avoid terrain if possible. Thankfully, he can jump in the assault phase, so if you would have clipped a piece of terrain on your way in, you can still swing at initiative. However, like jump infantry, if you start or end in terrain, then you still go at I1. So it's not super helpful, but it's something.

Grading: Footslogging: B - In a Tyrannocyte: A -

luke1705 wrote:
Ok time to get the Dimachaeron review done:

Dimachaeron:

This model has more special rules than you can shake a stick at, but it essentially boils down to a giant close combat beatstick. He is the monster that the Swarmlord used to be, and then some. He is an amazing area denial unit. Most units in the game won't think about getting anywhere near him. With fleet and move through cover, he is looking at an average of a 15.5" threat range - meaning he will, on average, move and charge that far. I've found that most units have no desire to risk being within 18 at all, regardless of the odds. The sheer number of AP 2 attacks he has at a high weapon skill and initiative would scare most units, but adding instant death on a 4+, gaining d3 attacks when outnumbered, and an extra strength 10 ap 1 instant death autohit at I1 to give you FNP on a 4+ is just icing on the cake of death. His only issue is that he only moves 6". Big downer. Can't get to close combat until turn 3 at best realistically, unless you happen to also roll Master of Ambush.

Thankfully, this last issue has been solved with the advent of the Tyrannocyte, allowing the Dimachaeron to drop down and cause havoc after being exposed to only a single turn of fire. It costs more, but the Tyrannocyte itself has uses so it's not a bad deal at all. You plop down a unit that your opponent either has to deal with immediately, magically vacate his entire threat range, or sacrifice a unit a turn to. Unless your opponent is rocking storm shields/phase shifters, the Dimachaeron will not be tarpitted. And unless a close combat eternal warrior monster can whale on him for free (shield eternal chapter master in a squad, etc), he doesn't fear much of anything. Do the math - he is the only monster in our army who actually has to worry about killing too much and being shot up on your opponent's turn - if he doesn't get his I1 instant death hit, he can't gain FNP. That's a big deal, so try to finagle with smash if you need to in order to gain the correct exit turn/FNP/both. Most of the time, gaining the FNP is actually more important as you lack an invulnerable save, and a 3+ and 4+ FNP is nothing to sniff at.

He has some unique movement tricks with his leap ability, allowing him to leap over screening units (either in movement or, more likely, in the assault phase) and is one of the few models in our army that creates true target priority issues. Many armies will not have anything that can stand up to him in close combat. He has no guns, and in an age where getting into combat unscathed is increasingly difficult, this cannot be looked upon fondly. He is also not going to work in all armies. Dropping him in unsupported is a great way to lose a chunk of your army. But if you have multiple threats that penalize your opponent no matter what they focus on, he can certainly shine.

Grading: Footslogging: B - In a Tyrannocyte: A -

Perfect summary and agree, 100%.

thanks for taking the time to write up.

 Zande4 wrote:
These grades need to be worked on. You have some people grading Gants a C and others a Haruspex and Sky Slashers B-...

I Would have given the Haruspex a C- or D. I've never run Sky Slashers, and so I cannot comment on their viability. I also think that for a unit like termagants with so many options and ways to run them, that grading the unit as a whole is pretty pointless.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

luke1705 wrote:
Ok time to get the Dimachaeron review done:

Dimachaeron:

an extra strength 10 ap 1 instant death autohit at I1 to give you FNP on a 4+ is just icing on the cake of death.

It doesn't auto hit. Still have to roll like all other attacks.

luke1705 wrote:
Do the math - he is the only monster in our army who actually has to worry about killing too much and being shot up on your opponent's turn

Also not true. Swarmlord has alot of problems with this. Walkrants, Raveners, Genestealers, Shrikes, Even sometimes gants.

Overall, I think your review is fine. I would have mentioned the Lack of Grenades.

Have you actually run games dropping a Dimacharon in a Tyrannocyte, or is the higher grade there due to Theory hammer? My Theory Hammer says that most of his weaknesses are still a problem if you drop pod him in.

RE: Dimachaeron If you roll a 6 to hit with the first batch of attacks, then the additional S10 attack hits automatically.

 ductvader wrote:
I didn't give Slashers a B- because I like them though, I don't like them unless I just want to switch things up. It's because...when looking at the unit alone...it deserves it. It's great at what it does. But what it does isn't needed in general Tyranid tactics.

I feel that you do need to take into account what else occupies that slot, looking at things in a vacuum doesn't work.

I feel maybe 2-3 most experienced people should do the grades after the review is submitted. Eg. They come to a consensus together and grade it. If not then I don't really think the grades have a place as they're far too inconsistent.

@Tag for the record I agree with your grading of Gants, they're average and a C reflects that. A Haruspex is not average nor even just below it, he's terrible and should be a D at most.

Tag,

You're right about the swarmlord. I think the Dimachaeron suffers from it more because he gets more attacks due to being outnumbered. However, the other units that you mentioned may suffer from it to varying degrees, but there's nothing you can do about it (except not charge at all, and you know how that works out)

As for the strength 10 attack, it does autohit if you score a 6 on your to-hit roll when you use the lower stength (instant death on 4+) weapons. The Dimachaerons in Tyrannocytes is currently Theoryhammer for me because I've only just finished assembling the two Tyrannocytes I need. I'll definitely let you guys know how it goes when they do hit the table, although it probably won't be until the week after thanksgiving due to the holiday. I have no problem adjusting the grade if I find him to underperform, but I've had good success with him outside of a pod, so I can't imagine it won't get better when he has more target selection.

You are right about the grenades - I'll add that in to the review. You just sort of forget about it after such a long time of never using them....because we almost exclusively have none... :(

I also agree that there needs to be more consistency with the grading....maybe we could set up a community poll for the grades. It wouldn't be hard to simply set up a grading poll, and then all of us could collectively grade each unit after the reviews are finished (and we've read them of course ) the results could then be averaged and put into the entry

 Zande4 wrote:
These grades need to be worked on. You have some people grading Gants a C and others a Haruspex and Sky Slashers B-...

 Iechine wrote:
I concur.

What more would you want a gant to be able to do at 4pts a model?

 jifel wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
These grades need to be worked on. You have some people grading Gants a C and others a Haruspex and Sky Slashers B-...

I think the problem is that the more "specialized" units (not stuff everyone uses like gants) are being written only by people who like them. This is the only conceivable way that I can think of that caused Pyrovores to be higher ranked than Venomthropes, despite the fact that for the same slot and same cost a Venomthrope is immeasurably better, and still falls short of truly great unit status like the Malanthrope.

While I like the idea of having individual reviewers, I think that perhaps a single person should grade the units as far as Letter Grades go. jy2 would be the most obvious choice if we decided to do this, but I think it is important that different people write the actual text, so that people who have actually used the units can comment on them.

(Seriously though, can we drop the Pyros grade a little bit...?)

Obviously there is going to be a lot of subjectivity with regards to these grading, and I agree that some of them are somewhat off due to personal experiences, prejudices or whatever. However, as an editor, I try not to "touch" the individual author's reviews (other than for formatting purposes or proofreading/grammatical/spelling errors). Otherwise, it then isn't really that person's review anymore.

However, here is my proposal. If you don't agree with an author's grading, simply add your opinions in the proper format (see below) and I will then add it as an addendum to that person's review. I will call it Grading - An Alternate Perspective. Use the format below:


Pyrovore: (Please include the author you are referring to. In this case, it would be Unyielding Hunger)

Grading - An Alternate Perspective: B (Podvores), C+ (Promvores), D (Vanilla) (by jy2)

Reason(s): To me, an 'A' unit is a unit that can and will consistently contribute to the Tyranid cause. While pyrovores in pods (podvores) can be very good for its role of anti-infantry, oftentimes it just won't contribute much. Why?

1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).

2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.

3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.

4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out

Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have to drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they are just as likely to fall flat on the face.


------------------------------------------------


Let me know if you guys like this idea or if you would prefer to do it another ways.

I think that the grades simple need to devolve into letters...no more + or -

@jy2
I'm a fan. I'm a big advocate for multiple people reviewing the same unit- I love having several perspectives to think over. Like the hormagaunts for example.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Tyrant Guard

Tyrant Guard serve one single purpose; to protect the Hive Tyrant.

1. They are now 10 points cheaper.

2. More streamlined for defense.

The Tyrant Guard brood is a sturdy and good investment for any ground based Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord. With the changes to the Shieldwall rule, a guard is a 50 point pair of ablative wounds for it. One point to note is that once combined, the Hive Tyrant is unable to leave, which means that any pairing must have good synergy. This immediately cancels out buying Tyrant Guard for any flyrants in your army. So, to understand fully what this means, you can't fly, and drop pods are out of the question since it it would require 2 pods to carry the unit. It will be forced to cover any distance on foot. Now, to make a point of this, if you are not running a Swarmlord, adrenal glands are nearly mandatory for a close combat oriented tyrant guard brood in order to ensure that you waste as little time as possible in the open. This helps to add extra durability by keeping them sweeping from assault to assault with fleet, spending as little time as possible in the open to be shot by your opponents high strength high AP weaponry.

Now, when you get down to it, the Tyrant Guard serve only in 2 specific functions. You bring them along to ensure that your Hive Tyrant survives from point A to point B, or as a combat multiplier. A brood of 3 stock guard are a good insurance policy for a Swarmlord or tooled out Hive Tyrant with Reaper, etc. These are serious point investments and an extra 6 wounds will ensure that they absorb plenty of punishment. Another option is if you have a walkrant and you plan for it to go after vehicles. Armed with a venom cannon, it would not be out of the question to take a single or pair of guard with a single or even both with crushing claws to add extra damage for vehicles. The trick at this point is to try and conserve points between the two to ensure you don't wind up with a too expensive unit that may take longer than expected to make back its points. A tyrant going after characters or multi-wound MCs would never leave home without several guard armed with the LW/BS combo to give the unit multiple attacks coming in at I7 with a good chance to ID.

Now, one last thing to mention is that you can purposefully make a suicide tyrant unit. Just keep the tyrant stock and keep it to the front of a brood of LW/BS guards. Allow it to tank rounds and avoid using the auto-passing LOS rule until it gets to a single wound. At which point, by the time you enter melee, you will have a very vulnerable tyrant that might just die in overwatch. At which point, you have 3 very angry Tyrant Guard in assault. That will be 15 S6 attacks at I7 with Rending/ID on 6s. Not much will live since you can hit most units on 3s.

Grades: B- (CrushGuard), B- (LW/BS Guard), C (Vanilla)

Quoting this as I think it's been missed.

Mawloc done and dusted too.



Interesting idea jy2 - I'd be up for it. It would be useful for new players to get different opinions and experiences from the more veteran Nid players anyway.

Saythings wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

Here's 40k Brawls latest rep making use of the Tyrannocytes, leviathan detatchment and fighter ace upgrade vs serpant spam.

Please enjoy!

Spoiler:

Interesting. Tyrants demolished the serpents. It ran counter to my experience, so I tracked it a bit.

Shooting Devourers at a front or side of a serpent should do 1.78 hull points, but with holo fields they jink 2/3 of those away for a net of 0.59 Hull points.
If they do E.Grubs rather than 1 Devourer that goes up to 1.13 hull points.

Turn 1, 2 Tyrants, Kill a serpent with Devourers. Should have done 1.19 Hull points. Another Tyrant does nothing should have done 0.59 Hull points. Expected: 1.78 Actual 3.
Turn 2, 2 Tyrants kill a serpent (in range of E.grubs). Should have done 2.26 Hull points. Also, the Tyrannocyte shot at dire avengers instead of a Serpent which was closer. Expected: 4.04 Actual 6.
Turn 3, 1 Tyrant kills a serpent (in range of E.grubs), Should have done 1.13 Hull points. Crone + Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) kill a Wave serpent, should have done 1.63 hull points. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9.
Turn 4, 1 Tyrant fails to hurt a serpent should have done 0.59. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9. Expected: 7.38 Actual 9.
Turn 5, 1 Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) does 2 hullpoints. Should have done 1.13. Expected: 8.52 Actual 11.

Basically the tyrants got pretty lucky, but only 23% above average. It just seemed flashy.

^ I love this. I'm so glad someone had the time both to watch and record his findings. I know personally I do not have his luck, but I'll go on breathing knowing his rolls weren't "that" lucky and was only 23% over the expected.

Example of MY luck: 5 Zoans deep strike from pod in front arc of Imperial Knight. Guess where his shield is going (I wanted his side arcs to be shieldless against my Flyrants' dakka).

All 5 hit! Five 3+ rolls on my BS!
4 pens and 1 glance! BOOYAH!
All five shots get deflected by his 4++ invuln.

Well played, Imperial Knight. Well played.

Just wanted to point out that Zoanthropes do their thing in the psychic phase and the shields choose their facing directly after that, so you have the advantage of shooting with your strength 10 lance where he's open.

 ductvader wrote:
I think that the grades simple need to devolve into letters...no more + or -

I think it's ok to include the +/- system. This helps to further separate the different units. For example, most people will probably agree that flyrants and carnifexes are excellent units. Both units are worthy of an 'A' rating. However, this grading can be misleading to newer players, who look at the grades between the 2 units and think that both are equal because both share the same grades. The +/- helps to differentiate these units even further. Ok, so it's better to take flyrants/carnifexes over the dimachaeron. However, should I take more tyrants or more fexes? The reader then sees that the tyrant is an 'A+' while the carnifex is an 'A'. This helps to provide more info to the reader that, while both units are very good, the flyrant is normally regarded more highly in a Tyranid army. Basically, in the case of units with the same grading level, the +/- gives the reader more info on which units is considered to be better.



@Frozocrone

Thanks! I have updated the 2 units.

luke1705 wrote:

I also agree that there needs to be more consistency with the grading....maybe we could set up a community poll for the grades. It wouldn't be hard to simply set up a grading poll, and then all of us could collectively grade each unit after the reviews are finished (and we've read them of course ) the results could then be averaged and put into the entry

While grading by polling is an excellent idea, realistically, it isn't very practical. There is just too many units and different configurations. You also need to give the viewers some time to vote (say, on average, 3-7 days for each unit).

Thus, there are 2 ways to do it. Put the poll here, leave it on for, say 3-5 days, and then put up the next poll. With this method, it may take up to a year just to collect all the samples!

The other way to do it is to open up multiple polls, all at once. This would require perhaps 100+ polling threads to be open. Problem is, besides the management of all of these polls, is this. The more popular units will get voted on. However, the less popular units will barely get any votes, if at all, and will fade away into oblivion in just a couple of days. Moreover, I don't know how significant the sample sizes for those less popular units will be.

For me, it's mainly the time to manage all these polls. Frankly, I just won't have the time to do so. Now if someone is ambitious enough to take on this project, then by all means, go for it. I'd be happy to use the results on the polls if the community here is fine with it.

Could create 5 polls...

Which of these units deserves an A

Lists all units...

Which deserves a B?

Lists all units...

So on and so forth...

And then +/- can be left for later?

 jy2 wrote:

1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).

Well, other than Marines, they will absolutely melt the contents of anything coming out of a popped transport all clumped together. Assuming you are podding them in you should have Dakkafex coming in with them imo I don't really think you should be running Pyrovores in anything except for aggressive drop pod list, so the survival of every single transport after 2 turns of shooting is pretty hard to imagine against an army with any mechanized infantry. On top of that, they still do infinitely more than Biovores in this match up, being able to put 3x S5 autohits into rear armour and ignoring jink isn't useless (compared to doing absolutely nothing).

 jy2 wrote:
2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.

Assuming of course you go first, and the Pyrovores arrive turn two. Even then, I feel like if you have kept the Pathfinders off the board / out of threat range for two turns of shooting, and still unable to deploy straight into a forward ruin when they do arrive, then these guys have probably done their job.

 jy2 wrote:
3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.

4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out

I'm gonna respond to these two points at once, by pointing out that in a TAC list you DO need either Biovores, Pyrovores, Crone, or TFex, or some manner of cover ignoring AP4. Sure, against some armies they aren't as effective. But as the saying goes, you'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! Wrecking armour save 4 or worse or anything with a cover save from the ruins or worse just covers so many critical threats that can be far less effecient to be shooting at with AP- TL Devs and most our other weaponry. Biovores have range durability a cost advantage and more damage output against this style of target than anything else making them the most versatile choice, but there is a lot of Nid builds where Pyrovores are a safer play that will consistently do better, and in any build its rare that they'll do worse.

About the spreading, well the same thing could be said for Biovores, Mawlocs, Exocrines blast, Pyrovores actually have some amount of control over it by being able to use their positioning to still line up multiple autohits with a smart template

 jy2 wrote:
Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have to drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they are just as likely to fall flat on the face.

Nah. I know you are theory crafting and all, but over 10 games in or so with the new Pyrovores and I can safely say this has never happened, and your logic to why it would is flawed. And even in the match ups where they performed middling-ly(?) I still didn't regret taking them over Biovores for my eggZilla build, and at least one of these kind of units is a must. Also I'd argue even Dima's don't fit this bill anymore now that they can take drop pods.


All this being said, those are your opinions and these are mine, so if this is going to be a community thing I think the only fair way to do it is take a vote out of 10 and take the average (mean) number. IMO !

 Wilson wrote:
RE: Dimachaeron If you roll a 6 to hit with the first batch of attacks, then the additional S10 attack hits automatically.

I stand corrected. Weird sentence structure in the rules threw me off. I've definitely been playing that wrong consistently.

 ductvader wrote:
I think that the grades simple need to devolve into letters...no more + or -

Why? I think + and - add quite a bit. Are you saying they are more subjective than the letters themselves?

I played some Necrons tonight. 4 Night Scythes vs my 2 Flyrants and Quad gun (Zoey was manning it). I was rolling cold to wound them, and they were rolling hot on their jinks, so between my 2 flyrants I was only landing 1 glance a turn, and between my quadgun and the 3 dakkafexes who were splitting their time with the cargo, I was getting another glance or so. On the plus side I was keeping all of them jinking every turn.

My question is, am I better off focusing down one Night Scythe at a time, or keeping them all jinking? I'll run the numbers later, but I'm curious what your experience tells you.

@Shuppet
@jy2

Reading the comments on the Pyrovore, I don't think that 3 in a SPOD is as terrible as I made it out to be in my thoughts. For 195 points, deepstriking 3 Heavy Flamers plus Pod weapons isn't honestly terrible, considering the Pyros are more resilient than an IG Vet squad. But, I think the problem is that Pyrovores don't fit any one role better than other units in our army. The fact is, to me, I would rather pay 40 less points for a Crone. I get less templates but better strength and Haywire missiles plus durability. Also, a Tyrannofex with EGrubs is 65 points more but is better in CC and infinitely tougher, plus inflicts more glances on any vehicle in the game, less reliant on scatter and inflicts very similar levels of damage. In a vacuum, Pyrovores aren't honestly even terrible. I just think that when compared to our other template options, they fall short as a complete package because of their lack of toughness. Yes, in a Threat Overload list you may be able to get away with this, but I'd personally rather always have a tougher MC in there.

Something interesting is that Pyrovores may be just as good as Biovores now... I honestly think that Biovores are no longer worth including outside of a LAN. With the rerolls I think they are still a good option and worth it, but I wouldn't be opposed to giving Pyrovores a B/B- (Far higher than I would have initially said), but the problem is that both TFex and Crones are B+ units to me. In a list where you are maxing Heavy Supports already (for say, Dakkafex and Exocrines) and have filled your Fast Attacks already, they aren't a bad choice. Slots allowing, there are just other units that do better at killing infantry.

 jifel wrote:
@Shuppet
@jy2

Reading the comments on the Pyrovore, I don't think that 3 in a SPOD is as terrible as I made it out to be in my thoughts. For 195 points, deepstriking 3 Heavy Flamers plus Pod weapons isn't honestly terrible, considering the Pyros are more resilient than an IG Vet squad. But, I think the problem is that Pyrovores don't fit any one role better than other units in our army. The fact is, to me, I would rather pay 40 less points for a Crone. I get less templates but better strength and Haywire missiles plus durability. Also, a Tyrannofex with EGrubs is 65 points more but is better in CC and infinitely tougher, plus inflicts more glances on any vehicle in the game, less reliant on scatter and inflicts very similar levels of damage. In a vacuum, Pyrovores aren't honestly even terrible. I just think that when compared to our other template options, they fall short as a complete package because of their lack of toughness. Yes, in a Threat Overload list you may be able to get away with this, but I'd personally rather always have a tougher MC in there.

Something interesting is that Pyrovores may be just as good as Biovores now... I honestly think that Biovores are no longer worth including outside of a LAN. With the rerolls I think they are still a good option and worth it, but I wouldn't be opposed to giving Pyrovores a B/B- (Far higher than I would have initially said), but the problem is that both TFex and Crones are B+ units to me. In a list where you are maxing Heavy Supports already (for say, Dakkafex and Exocrines) and have filled your Fast Attacks already, they aren't a bad choice. Slots allowing, there are just other units that do better at killing infantry.

I guess that's a question of how you look at the Tyrannocyte. I view 75 points for 5x S5 AP5 hits a turn deepstriking anywhere, as worth it points and not an added cost to the Pyrovores, 10-20 at most if someone was to insist. It's the same amount of firepower as 90 points of Deathspitter Warriors. As for the Tyrannofex, thing is it might be a lot tougher, but Pyrovores hit for 150% the damage of a TFex, for 2/3's the price, so it's excellent in efficiency for knocking a unit clean out. I think while Tyranno's can glance vehicles, Pyrovores are really excellent in assault. I think the TFex is also very pricey, . I'm not saying it's a bad option however, just a different one. Also, Dakkafexes in pods are glass cannons and I don't like paying extra points for durability effeciecny right next to that, since the smart choice is often just to focus all fire on the Dakkafexes first anyway. To me the Pyrovore is not about threat overload, just that they work really well to compliment Dakkafex in Pods, because it hits in the same turn, Dakkafex lose effeciency when trying to hit units in cover or units with 4+ armour saves (half the wounds wasted), and they do a great job of destroying rear armour (half the reason you put em in pods). I think the Pyrovore really only needs that one turn to make its points back. Heavy Flamers might be decent for Marines, for us they are amazing, just based on what the rest of the units in each dex does well and does badly.

Crone in comparison hits about 1/3 as hard, cost 35 points more, and while it gives anti-air coverage and can take potshots at vehicles, it's a lot less focused of a model, which can hurt, and is effectively trading points out of the type of coverage that we are looking for in the choice of unit for points in AT/AA. Also, for the style of list where Pyrovores excel, I don't feel like a list with 60 Dakkashots a turn (24 of them Skyfire), and 3 Carnifexes DS'ing backfield, really drastically needs anything the Crone has to offer besides the Flamer. Still a viable choice, but you'd probably need 2, and I feel like it digs in a lot to a lot of points for a role that could be easily fulfilled by the Vores alone, but that's to taste I guess.


However, I agree that Pyrovores are just as good as Biovores, and Biovores are best off in LAN (which is still amazing!) and most other times Pyrovores will do their job just as well or better, even if they die in the process (which isn't always such a bad thing, especially if you are running it in conjunction with nothing but FMC's and MC's in drop pods!). They are undeniably a glass cannon, but as such they can make their points back in a single turn, and every further turn they survive their efficiency shoots through the roof, even if optimal targets start to drop off, especially since they can assault in subsequent turns. Also, it's more of a coverage aspect hence why only ever take 1 squad, if they have no optimal units left to shoot at, that's one less unit type that the Dakkafex trades less efficiently with on the board, meaning they will perform more efficiently themselves. That being said, there is a lot of things it can CONTINUE to put wounds on with S5 even if it becomes less efficient itself.


These are just my opinions and outlook on the unit, but I'm glad to hear jifel that you at least agree that it's not as terrible as people are making it out to be! I think you are the first person to say that. I feel it's a bit of the Tervigon mentality, where when the new dex first dropped everyone was still running 1 or 2, just because how they USED to perform, with the mindset that the changes didn't initally seem to be THAT big, right. Spore is unobtrusively and indirectly, a massive change for Pyrovore, and I feel like Jy's post is kind of just reaching a little, trying to find ways to prove the point that they are bad, even though he hasn't used them yet. Not having a go at that, because there is nothing wrong with theorycraft, but I think playing them just once or twice might change his opinion just a little.

Could I get some advice on what weapons to assemble my Tyranids with? I'm aiming for a swarm army with a bit of everything like the army pictures in the codex but I don't want to regret it later if I decide to be more competitive. I have one of the old battleforces and the swarm boxed set and I plan on getting the upcoming starter and the wrath boxed set at a later date.

I've planning on or have started doing them like this:
Hormagaunts = vanilla
Termagants = 1/3 with devourers, rest fleshborers
Genestealers = 2 pairs of rending claws.
Warriors = I've made 2 vanilla + 1 Barbed Strangler. I want to do a CC group next. Maybe one BS/LW and others with rending claws or make a Prime?
Carnifex = I'm magnetising them for head, arms and top carapace plate so weapons shouldn't be a problem. Not sure what to do about the tail though. I don't really want to magnetise it or use a tail biomorph but the plain tail looks bad and they are much cooler with a attachment.

durecellrabbit wrote:
Could I get some advice on what weapons to assemble my Tyranids with? I'm aiming for a swarm army with a bit of everything like the army pictures in the codex but I don't want to regret it later if I decide to be more competitive. I have one of the old battleforces and the swarm boxed set and I plan on getting the upcoming starter and the wrath boxed set at a later date.

Warriors = I've made 2 vanilla + 1 Barbed Strangler. I want to do a CC group next. Maybe one BS/LW and others with rending claws or make a Prime?
Carnifex = I'm magnetising them for head, arms and top carapace plate so weapons shouldn't be a problem. Not sure what to do about the tail though. I don't really want to magnetise it or use a tail biomorph but the plain tail looks bad and they are much cooler with a attachment.

I magnetized all of my warriors.

For a Carnifex. I've never had anyone argue that the head, tail, or carapace plate are not WYSIWYG. I think these days most people have accepted that as an aesthetic choice rather than a wargear one.

The majority of my opponents can't tell one carapace aprt from the next as well, and I don't know if I've ever seen anyone assemble 30 hormagaunts with toxin sacs and 30 without.

When modelling tyranids and biomorphs...just stick to the rule of cool.

A bit off topic, but what size magnets (from K&J Magnetics) should I order for magnetizing Tyrannocyte guns? 90% sure I'll use VC's but just for the offchance I want to change...

Also, what would be best to use for getting the right size holes for the magnets made?

Thanks! I used my unfinished pod with a dakkafex in my last game and it worked great, popped a Razorback right away!

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Tyrant Guard

Tyrant Guard serve one single purpose; to protect the Hive Tyrant.


Grades: B- (CrushGuard), B- (LW/BS Guard), C (Vanilla)

I've run Tyrant Guard quite alot, and feel like this writup misses or diminishes a few of the things they do.

1) They make a Walkrant or a Swarmlord really, really survivable. To that end, you can make do with 1 less synapse creature in your army.
2) The allow you to multi-assault with an MC. Since close combat is the safest place for a TMC to be, this is huge.
3) Its the only way to get crushing claws into a Tyrant's unit. I always include one Tyrant guard with Crushing claws in a bodyguard contingent unless I'm running a backfield blast tyrant (and why would I?). 7th is the age of vehicles, and having one model that can get you out of combat with a walker is critical. I take my tyrant / Swarmlord all the way down to 1 wound before killing this guard if there are walkers/vehicles on the table.
4) I'm not sure where you are coming from with BS + LW. Every character you might join to them can take that, and do so on a more durable platform that can challenge people out.
5) You can do Wound allocation shenanigan with the auto-LOS. Often my Tyrant, and all 3 Tyrant Guard go down to 1 wound before the first model is removed.

Common Builds:
Swarmlord Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws) + Swarmlord - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B. In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyrant Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyrant (BS + LW, RC, TS, AG) - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyranid Prime Deathstar - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Maw Claws, TS, AG, FH) - Fit in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C+
Land Raider Hunters - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) possibly in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C.

Noctem wrote:
A bit off topic, but what size magnets (from K&J Magnetics) should I order for magnetizing Tyrannocyte guns? 90% sure I'll use VC's but just for the offchance I want to change...

Also, what would be best to use for getting the right size holes for the magnets made?

Thanks! I used my unfinished pod with a dakkafex in my last game and it worked great, popped a Razorback right away!

Ah man, so true. Dakkafexes in pods are rad, I'd take two if I had the room to fit another fex and pod into my 1850 list!

Noctem wrote:
A bit off topic, but what size magnets (from K&J Magnetics) should I order for magnetizing Tyrannocyte guns? 90% sure I'll use VC's but just for the offchance I want to change...

Also, what would be best to use for getting the right size holes for the magnets made?

Thanks! I used my unfinished pod with a dakkafex in my last game and it worked great, popped a Razorback right away!

4x1mm should do the trick. A 3/16" drill bit plus a little extra shaving with a hobby knife will make the holes for the magnets to sink into. Actually, 3x1mm will fit perfectly into a 3/16" hole and they should also be string enough to hold those little plastic guns.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Noctem wrote:
A bit off topic, but what size magnets (from K&J Magnetics) should I order for magnetizing Tyrannocyte guns? 90% sure I'll use VC's but just for the offchance I want to change...

Also, what would be best to use for getting the right size holes for the magnets made?

Thanks! I used my unfinished pod with a dakkafex in my last game and it worked great, popped a Razorback right away!

4x1mm should do the trick. A 3/16" drill bit plus a little extra shaving with a hobby knife will make the holes for the magnets to sink into. Actually, 3x1mm will fit perfectly into a 3/16" hole and they should also be string enough to hold those little plastic guns.

Personally, I go with 3x2mm for things that stick out very far.

Ok, I can jab for a little while.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).

Well, other than Marines, they will absolutely melt the contents of anything coming out of a popped transport all clumped together. Assuming you are podding them in you should have Dakkafex coming in with them imo I don't really think you should be running Pyrovores in anything except for aggressive drop pod list, so the survival of every single transport after 2 turns of shooting is pretty hard to imagine against an army with any mechanized infantry. On top of that, they still do infinitely more than Biovores in this match up, being able to put 3x S5 autohits into rear armour and ignoring jink isn't useless (compared to doing absolutely nothing).

Ok, let's say you pop a transport with previous shooting. Now you can potentially:

1. Kill a 65-pt unit of dire avengers.
2. 54-pts of fire warriors.
3. 60-pts of orks.
4. 60-pts of guardsmen.
5. 45-pts of kabalite warriors.
5. Against a 5-man marine unit - assuming you get 15-hits (not very likely, average will probably more like 8-12 depending on whether your opponent spreads out) - that's 10 wounds, 3 dead marines. You've just killed 42-pts of marines.

Sure, you've melted a unit. You've also traded your 120-pt for a 50-70-pt unit. But your point of a "drop pod" Tyranid list is fair. Drop other more dangerous threats and they will ignore your pyrovores.

 jy2 wrote:
2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.

Assuming of course you go first, and the Pyrovores arrive turn two. Even then, I feel like if you have kept the Pathfinders off the board / out of threat range for two turns of shooting, and still unable to deploy straight into a forward ruin when they do arrive, then these guys have probably done their job.

Yes, I come in first, you have targets. You come in first, you don't have good targets. It's almost a coin flip. 50% you will do something. 50% you won't. That's not what I would define as a "consistent" contributor. A 50/50 unit is not what I would rate as an 'A' unit. And then what if my "squishy" units come in on a transport (i.e. night scythes, rhinos, devilfish)?

BTW, pathfinders will not be in reserves. They will stay on the table. When your pyrovores come in and shoot at them, it won't matter because 1) they've already helped the Tau army take out a crucial enemy unit with their markerlights and 2) the enemy probably shot at them already on Turn 1 and killed enough to make the unit inconsequential by the time the pyrovores come in.

 jy2 wrote:
3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.

4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out

I'm gonna respond to these two points at once, by pointing out that in a TAC list you DO need either Biovores, Pyrovores, Crone, or TFex, or some manner of cover ignoring AP4. Sure, against some armies they aren't as effective. But as the saying guys, you'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! Wrecking armour save 4 or worse or anything with a cover save from the ruins or worse just covers so many critical threats that can be far less effecient to be shooting at with AP- TL Devs and most our other weaponry. Biovores have range durability a cost advantage and more damage output against this style of target than anything else making them the most versatile choice, but there is a lot of Nid builds where Pyrovores are a safer play that will consistently do better, and in any build its rare that they'll do worse.

About the spreading, well the same thing could be said for Biovores, Mawlocs, Exocrines blast, Pyrovores actually have some amount of control over it by being able to use their positioning to still line up multiple autohits with a smart template

It also makes them somewhat hit-or-miss against certain armies. Here's the difference.

Exocrine - shoots, misses (or doesn't have a good target), tries again next turn.
Biovores - shoots, misses (or doesn't have a good target), tries again next turn.
Mawloc - comes up, scatters, re-burrows or assault, then get out of combat and re-burrow.

Pyrovores - comes in, doesn't have a good target, next turn is most likely dead.

The other units can keep on trying because they have the range to stay away and shoot (or in the case of the mawloc, assault or re-burrow again). The pyrovore is almost a one-and-done unit. You better make the most out of him on the turn he comes in. Otherwise, with his really short range and slow mobility, he is most likely going to be out of it - either killed because he is not as tough as the mawloc or out-of-position without the mobility to really get back into the position to be useful. That, to me, is an indication that he is more of a suicidal unit than a consistent team player. In other words, not an 'A' player.

 jy2 wrote:
Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have to drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they are just as likely to fall flat on the face.

Nah. I know you are theory crafting and all, but over 10 games in or so with the new Pyrovores and I can safely say this has never happened, and your logic to why it would is flawed. And even in the match ups where they performed middling-ly(?) I still didn't regret taking them over Biovores for my eggZilla build, and at least one of these kind of units is a must. Also I'd argue even Dima's don't fit this bill anymore now that they can take drop pods.

That's fine. You can have good performances with them. They are pretty good for what they were meant to do. I am not disputing that. What I am disputing is whether they are good enough/survivable enough to be consistent contributors to the Tyranid army. And yes, a lot of my reasoning is theory-crafting. However, when evaluating a unit, I run them through the gauntlet against my competitive armies. Against my:

Daemons - I would spread out my pink horrors. FMC's will be in the air. My deathstar would be Invisible and not targetable.
Necrons - absolutely no viable targets. There's only AV11 rear armor of my vehicles.
Tyranids - either MC's or rippers far off somewhere. Come in before the rippers, no good targets. Come in after the rippers, you will probably kill them but then now you will be out of position (either that or shot down by flyrants).
Space Marines - everyone is meched up. Have fun shooting at 2+ guys (dreadknights, GK terminators) or my deathstar, which will most likely be Invisible.
Chaos Space Marines - you will kill lots of zombies, but guess what....I really don't care. Lol. They are only 4-pts each and I've got 100+ in my army (and with FNP on them!).

I don't know what type of armies that you play against, but I really can't see pyrovores contributing consistently against the types of armies that I run. They will either not do much or they will die after doing something.

In any case, these are just my opinions. I tend to look at units from a more competitive standpoint, and when measuring their efficiency, I always gauge them relative to how I think (yes, it is theorycrafting, but is that so wrong?) they will perform against my competitive armies.

 SHUPPET wrote:
These are just my opinions and outlook on the unit, but I'm glad to hear jifel that you at least agree that it's not as terrible as people are making it out to be! I think you are the first person to say that. I feel it's a bit of the Tervigon mentality, where when the new dex first dropped everyone was still running 1 or 2, just because how they USED to perform, with the mindset that the changes didn't initally seem to be THAT big, right. Spore is unobtrusively and indirectly, a massive change for Pyrovore, and I feel like Jy's post is kind of just reaching a little, trying to find ways to prove the point that they are bad, even though he hasn't used them yet. Not having a go at that, because there is nothing wrong with theorycraft, but I think playing them just once or twice might change his opinion just a little.

I have no idea why you think that I think that they are bad ("ways to prove the point that they are bad"). My stance is that they are a good unit. Not excellent (which is what an 'A' unit would be to me), but good enough to recommend to a player if he wants an anti-infantry unit in his army. A 'B' rating, which is what I gave it, is still a good unit. It has a role in the army and it can perform that role very well actually. However, what keep it from being an 'A' unit, or an excellent unit, is because it is more of a suicidal unit and it doesn't perform as consistently as some of the other units in the book. It is a unit that is more potentially hit-or-miss than many of the units in the Tyranid codex, like the dimachaeron. Now you are perfectly fine to disagree with my analysis, but no amount of your playtesting or counter-arguments are going to change my mind on this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Tyrant Guard

Tyrant Guard serve one single purpose; to protect the Hive Tyrant.


Grades: B- (CrushGuard), B- (LW/BS Guard), C (Vanilla)

I've run Tyrant Guard quite alot, and feel like this writup misses or diminishes a few of the things they do.

1) They make a Walkrant or a Swarmlord really, really survivable. To that end, you can make do with 1 less synapse creature in your army.
2) The allow you to multi-assault with an MC. Since close combat is the safest place for a TMC to be, this is huge.
3) Its the only way to get crushing claws into a Tyrant's unit. I always include one Tyrant guard with Crushing claws in a bodyguard contingent unless I'm running a backfield blast tyrant (and why would I?). 7th is the age of vehicles, and having one model that can get you out of combat with a walker is critical. I take my tyrant / Swarmlord all the way down to 1 wound before killing this guard if there are walkers/vehicles on the table.
4) I'm not sure where you are coming from with BS + LW. Every character you might join to them can take that, and do so on a more durable platform that can challenge people out.
5) You can do Wound allocation shenanigan with the auto-LOS. Often my Tyrant, and all 3 Tyrant Guard go down to 1 wound before the first model is removed.

Common Builds:
Swarmlord Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws) + Swarmlord - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B. In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyrant Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyrant (BS + LW, RC, TS, AG) - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyranid Prime Deathstar - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Maw Claws, TS, AG, FH) - Fit in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C+
Land Raider Hunters - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) possibly in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C.

Let me "re-format" this for you and add it as an addendum to the Tyrant Guard.


Tyrant Guard: (by Unyielding Hunger)

Grading - An Alternate Perspective: (by tag8833)

Reason(s): I've run Tyrant Guard quite alot, and feel like this writup misses or diminishes a few of the things they do.

1) They make a Walkrant or a Swarmlord really, really survivable. To that end, you can make do with 1 less synapse creature in your army.
2) The allow you to multi-assault with an MC. Since close combat is the safest place for a TMC to be, this is huge.
3) Its the only way to get crushing claws into a Tyrant's unit. I always include one Tyrant guard with Crushing claws in a bodyguard contingent unless I'm running a backfield blast tyrant (and why would I?). 7th is the age of vehicles, and having one model that can get you out of combat with a walker is critical. I take my tyrant / Swarmlord all the way down to 1 wound before killing this guard if there are walkers/vehicles on the table.
4) I'm not sure where you are coming from with BS + LW. Every character you might join to them can take that, and do so on a more durable platform that can challenge people out.
5) You can do Wound allocation shenanigan with the auto-LOS. Often my Tyrant, and all 3 Tyrant Guard go down to 1 wound before the first model is removed.

Common Builds:
Swarmlord Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws) + Swarmlord - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B. In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyrant Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyrant (BS + LW, RC, TS, AG) - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyranid Prime Deathstar - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Maw Claws, TS, AG, FH) - Fit in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C+
Land Raider Hunters - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) possibly in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C

durecellrabbit wrote:
Could I get some advice on what weapons to assemble my Tyranids with? I'm aiming for a swarm army with a bit of everything like the army pictures in the codex but I don't want to regret it later if I decide to be more competitive. I have one of the old battleforces and the swarm boxed set and I plan on getting the upcoming starter and the wrath boxed set at a later date.

I've planning on or have started doing them like this:
Hormagaunts = vanilla
Termagants = 1/3 with devourers, rest fleshborers
Genestealers = 2 pairs of rending claws.
Warriors = I've made 2 vanilla + 1 Barbed Strangler. I want to do a CC group next. Maybe one BS/LW and others with rending claws or make a Prime?
Carnifex = I'm magnetising them for head, arms and top carapace plate so weapons shouldn't be a problem. Not sure what to do about the tail though. I don't really want to magnetise it or use a tail biomorph but the plain tail looks bad and they are much cooler with a attachment.

Those look like good choices> For CC Warriors one Bone Sword is a decent choice, and if you want to Flesh Hooks are a major upgrade for only a few points. I've always had good luck with Rending Claws, and they are another low cost upgrade. Heck I think I would be happy with Rending, Flesh Hook, Scything, possably Adrenal...that's...40 to 45 per??? Personaly I like a Strangle Cannon in every Warrior Brood, but that is a "style" thing. Warriors are pretty quick, so Twin Swords might be just as good, and save a few points...

The Haruspex is pretty decent at popping LRs and killing Riptides/NDKs. With Adrenal Glands, it'll be Str 8 on the charge, which will be instagibbing Paladins. In a pod it could be a nice DISTRACTION CARNIFEX replacement.
Unfortunately it lacks the initiative and WS required to be a truly good CQC monster, and it doesn't have enough wounds to get to CQC in the Age of Shooting. Finally, it's too slow, but a pod/Adr glands would mitigate this. I would rate it at a C- stock, and C with Adr Glands, definately not the F or D you guys are giving it. Thoughts? I will trust a more experienced Haruspex user to write up a true review.
Can you please explain why you rate it so poorly?

I think the problem with rating CQC tyranids is the dimachaeron. Because that model does that particular task so impressively well, none of the other melee tyranids from the codex really stand out in comparison.

To be fair, they have a better ability to get there with their wings, but thats about it.