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2014/12/12 22:55:56
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I'm trying to figure out what to fill out how to fill out my last 250 points for my local escalation league. The league ends at 1750 and we are actually only at the 1000 point make, so I can still make some changes but I'm pretty confident in my 1250 and 1500 point choices.
Rules: No LOW, fortifications, Fighter Ace, formations. Single CAD (event started before Leviathan came out so I'm on the old Tyranid CAD). Can add to existing units (upgrades + additional models) but can't remove.
My list is:
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
The last 250 I'm not so sure on. The 2 I have been thinking about are:
1. Mawloc, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade, Regen for my Warlord Tyrant
2. Exocrine, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade
Any help would be greatly appreciated. My opponents vary a lot. Orks, Sisters, SM, CSM, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons.
Well, the big 'hole" I see is a lack of Shrouding. So I would look there. If you are cool with that lack, the I say go Wild. Toss in a Dakkafex, and two Zoeys in Broods of one that gives 4 more WC, and two more rolls on Powers of the Hive Mind!
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/12/13 00:47:01
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
If I had to offer some advice, I would say a Venomthrope in a Bunker with Comms relay, since you'll have at least 4 units in reserve. That's 120, so for the next 130 points I would throw in a Mawloc and drop 10 points, probably in a Stinger Salvo off a Crone. As mentioned above, the lack of shrouding sticks out like a sore thumb.
2014/12/13 01:27:22
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
This is the problem with Flyrant spam imo, it can hold its own pound for pound with the Living Artillery builds against most match ups and even do a little bit better against some, and there is no really bad match up for Living Artillery builds that isn't just as bad for Tyradactyl style builds, a bunch of Flyers have an obvious weakness against anything with plentiful Skyfire. I think this is what makes LAN the Nids one of best TAC build and FMCs just a little bit less equipped to take on everything.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/12/13 05:00:55
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I'm trying to figure out what to fill out how to fill out my last 250 points for my local escalation league. The league ends at 1750 and we are actually only at the 1000 point make, so I can still make some changes but I'm pretty confident in my 1250 and 1500 point choices.
Rules: No LOW, fortifications, Fighter Ace, formations. Single CAD (event started before Leviathan came out so I'm on the old Tyranid CAD). Can add to existing units (upgrades + additional models) but can't remove.
My list is:
Spoiler:
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
The last 250 I'm not so sure on. The 2 I have been thinking about are:
1. Mawloc, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade, Regen for my Warlord Tyrant
2. Exocrine, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade
Any help would be greatly appreciated. My opponents vary a lot. Orks, Sisters, SM, CSM, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons.
You're missing one of the most important units in the game (other than the hive tyrant) - the malanthrope.
I'd go with:
Malanthrope
Mawloc
You have 25-pts left for wargear and whatnot.
BTW, I'd break up your brood of 2 zoans to 2 units of 1 zoan.
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
LAN won't work so well against this type of list and I will tell you why. Exocrine just does not have the range to any of the Tau units. He'd get shot down before he gets a chance to do anything. Biovores aren't really efficient vs 2+ units. There will be no soft targets (i.e. fire warriors) for them. As for markerlights, they can stay in the ruins and spread out like this to minimize the impact of the biovores:
Only against biovores, my opponent should put his buffmander in the center to soak up most of the damage with his 2+ 4W body and he should be spreading out his marker drones even more. They can always Jump-Shoot-Jump to spread out some more.
tag8833 wrote: Is an Imperial Bunker Tall enough to hide a flyrant behind? I've never seen one assembled, but am considering buying one.
I don't believe so. It looks like it is about 50-60% the height of a bastion only.
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
This is the problem with Flyrant spam imo, it can hold its own pound for pound with the Living Artillery builds against most match ups and even do a little bit better against some, and there is no really bad match up for Living Artillery builds that isn't just as bad for Tyradactyl style builds, a bunch of Flyers have an obvious weakness against anything with plentiful Skyfire. I think this is what makes LAN the Nids one of best TAC build and FMCs just a little bit less equipped to take on everything.
Hmmm....I was beginning to wonder where SHUPPET went, after not posting for about a week here. Welcome back, friend.
LAN is good, but it is not top-tier good. It will never be able to reach the levels that a Pentyrant list could. It's like comparing a Mustang to a Ferrari.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/13 05:02:45
@jy2
Are you so sure about the LAN? It wasn't too long ago that the Lictor was considered garbage, and now even you are starting to stick it in here and there. It may just depend on how it's applied as to whether it's top-tier or not.
Sinful Hero wrote: @jy2
Are you so sure about the LAN? It wasn't too long ago that the Lictor was considered garbage, and now even you are starting to stick it in here and there. It may just depend on how it's applied as to whether it's top-tier or not.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that the LAN is bad. It's good. It just isn't top-tier good. Of course that could change thanks to the leviathan detachment with triple-Flyrants, but overall, LAN just doesn't bring what more Flyrants can to the army. Some of its weaknesses include:
1. It lacks mobility. It is basically a static gunline build, and we all know how those do nowadays.
2. It just doesn't have the resiliency. Biovores are pretty sturdy because you can hide them, but exocrines just don't have the durability to be a consistent contributor.
3. It is suboptimal against mech-spam. The biggest threat to mech is the exocrine and he can easily be taken care of.
4. The warriors are a tax that doesn't really contribute offensively to the army. They are ok as a support unit to provide Synapse to the backfield and maybe take an objective. However, the malanthrope is better at that role than the warriors.
If you want proof, just look at most of the top pre-Leviathan Tyranid armies. They are either self-allied to bring in an extra flyrant, Skyblight which also brings in another flyrant or running the Barbed Hierodule.
Now the Leviathan detachment has made LAN better. Then again, it's made every other Tyranid build better as well.
To LAN's defense, it also isn't a "build" per se, so much as it is a reasonably priced tool that does a specific function reasonably well.
Depending on an evolving meta, it can either be excellent in a TAC list, or down-right exceptional depending on opponent, especially as 'Nids have the cheap mobility to hold objectives, in abundance, meaning the points in LAN are far from wasted. :-)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incidentally, with more time since the rules came out, has anyone had any experience with the Neurothrope in a real-world setting?
I know it isn't optimal, but I constantly have this sick desire to plunk four Zoeys and a Neuro in a Tyrannocyst. I know it is expensive, I know it is WC inefficient. And yet, I just want to see my opponent when I throw a Spirit Leech at a reasonably tough elite unit of Termies, etc... and maybe generate a free Warp Lance which throws a bunch of shots at a Landraider.
I've done the math... and I know it leaves soooo many gates to the dice-Gods... but I think I need to run it until it works just the once, so I can see it happen. :-p
Also, how is our Tyrannocyst-tactica shaking out? Are we almost all in agreement that they are perfect Dakkafex delivery systems, or is anything else just as viable in them? I was thinking a Tyrannofex with dual-templates might be able to do some good work in one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/13 20:42:06
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)
2014/12/14 01:31:23
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Sinful Hero wrote: @jy2
Are you so sure about the LAN? It wasn't too long ago that the Lictor was considered garbage, and now even you are starting to stick it in here and there. It may just depend on how it's applied as to whether it's top-tier or not.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that the LAN is bad. It's good. It just isn't top-tier good. Of course that could change thanks to the leviathan detachment with triple-Flyrants, but overall, LAN just doesn't bring what more Flyrants can to the army. Some of its weaknesses include:
1. It lacks mobility. It is basically a static gunline build, and we all know how those do nowadays.
I don't think you know what a static gunline is, or you are using the termanology wrong, or you just don't play ground nids much. It might not entirely have jump packs or wings but it doesn't automatically mean the style of play is walling up in a static gunline. They are pushing up the board as fast as they can, full move every turn thanks to move through cover, running if they aren't in range. Running 6 rolls for Onslaught, and a re-roll for Master of Ambush to help push a unit up the table even quicker, aiming to get within that 18" spot of death where your army can outfirepower practically any army in the game, and threatening assaults to extend that advantage further. This is somewhat anecdotal, but practicing and playing against top tier builds, there isn't a single top tier build that I wasn't at the very least evenly trading games with.
jy2 wrote: 2. It just doesn't have the resiliency. Biovores are pretty sturdy because you can hide them, but exocrines just don't have the durability to be a consistent contributor.
I guess the case could be argued that Exocrines themselves aren't really durable, but with a TL S7 AP2 pinning blast for 170 points the point of the unit is that they put out enough hurt to make it worth it. That being said, while they are one of the less efficient points per wound unit in the dex, they do still pay less per wound than a Carnifex, with 6" extra range and more damage output vs a large selection of targets, Exocrine should be a consistent contributor imo. Comparing units based on durability alone is silly, otherwise we may as say dual CAD for 6 Mawloc's is a better HS option than anything we have available.
jy2 wrote: 3. It is suboptimal against mech-spam. The biggest threat to mech is the exocrine and he can easily be taken care of.
I run 2 Flyrants + 4 Carnifexes and room for more. I don't think this is the case at all for LAN style builds, at least no more so than Flyrants. And if this is how we are going to drive our points "Flyrant's are suboptimal against Skyfire spam. Skyfire takes away one of the armies largest advantages that it pays for much for in the price of wings.
jy2 wrote: 4. The warriors are a tax that doesn't really contribute offensively to the army. They are ok as a support unit to provide Synapse to the backfield and maybe take an objective. However, the malanthrope is better at that role than the warriors.
Bastion + Malanthrope is a tax that doesn't contribute offensively to the army either, and that costs double as much. Just saying, Warriors are one of the most cost effective Synapse providers in the dex and a TL Pinning Venom Cannon ain't bad neither, and on top of that they around double the damage output of your Biovores and Exocrines in blast mode. For 100 pts they are not what I'd ever describe as tax.
jy2 wrote: If you want proof, just look at most of the top pre-Leviathan Tyranid armies. They are either self-allied to bring in an extra flyrant, Skyblight which also brings in another flyrant or running the Barbed Hierodule.
For starters even if that was correct, that's not "proof", it's still completely anecdotal. As a poster above me said, if this is proof of ground Nids being just below top tier, I guess it's also proof that Lictor's are absolute bottom of the barrel trash tier since it wasn't long ago that this was their position in every competitive list. How many people do or do not do something has no actual affect on the power level or capability of a unit, that is a seperate category of judgement. That being said, I'm pretty sure this statement is far from the truth and seems more centered around FLG meta. Self allied for a Flyrant or running a Barbed Heriodule? The only person I've ever seen run a Heirodule in a tourney is InControl. Your description of the "meta" reads a lot more like a description of what you think is the best list, with an exception added in for your pal's best list as well. I don't think it's very accurate as a lot of people like the ground Nids competitively.
Flyrants enmasse have a lot of positive match ups and aren't a terrible TAC comer, but simply have more negative match ups than ground Nids.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/12/14 04:41:39
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I don't think you know what a static gunline is, or you are using the termanology wrong, or you just don't play ground nids much. It might not entirely have jump packs or wings but it doesn't automatically mean the style of play is walling up in a static gunline. They are pushing up the board as fast as they can, full move every turn thanks to move through cover, running if they aren't in range. Running 6 rolls for Onslaught, and a re-roll for Master of Ambush to help push a unit up the table even quicker, aiming to get within that 18" spot of death where your army can outfirepower practically any army in the game, and threatening assaults to extend that advantage further. This is somewhat anecdotal, but practicing and playing against top tier builds, there isn't a single top tier build that I wasn't at the very least evenly trading games with.
Care to enlighten me how Biovores that can't shoot if they move are not a static gunline? The Warriors that have to babysit them thus also not being able to move? So 1 of the 7 units in the formation moves up the board (losing a 1 BS and the Re-Roll of the Warriors while he does it) and that qualifies it to not be a static gunline?
I like the LAN but it is a static gunline.
"Full move every turn thanks to move through cover" You may want to re-read that rule.
I don't think you know what a static gunline is, or you are using the termanology wrong, or you just don't play ground nids much. It might not entirely have jump packs or wings but it doesn't automatically mean the style of play is walling up in a static gunline. They are pushing up the board as fast as they can, full move every turn thanks to move through cover, running if they aren't in range. Running 6 rolls for Onslaught, and a re-roll for Master of Ambush to help push a unit up the table even quicker, aiming to get within that 18" spot of death where your army can outfirepower practically any army in the game, and threatening assaults to extend that advantage further. This is somewhat anecdotal, but practicing and playing against top tier builds, there isn't a single top tier build that I wasn't at the very least evenly trading games with.
Care to enlighten me how Biovores that can't shoot if they move are not a static gunline? The Warriors that have to babysit them thus also not being able to move? So 1 of the 7 units in the formation moves up the board (losing a 1 BS and the Re-Roll of the Warriors while he does it) and that qualifies it to not be a static gunline?
I like the LAN but it is a static gunline.
"Full move every turn thanks to move through cover" You may want to re-read that rule.
Flyrants enmasse have a lot of positive match ups and aren't a terrible TAC comer, but simply have more negative match ups than ground Nids.
Now I feel you're being contrary for the sake of it
Biovores are Assault 1, not heavy 1, so everything in the formation can move just fine. I play in a lower flyer meta mostly so flyrant spam will be stronger, but an hour a way I see a heavy flyer meta with enough skyfire or opposing flyers to make LAN the stronger lists.
2014/12/14 06:42:42
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I used a Hive tyrant Kit, used the Flying Tyrant Tail/body. The head is from the Venom/zoanthrope Box set. Arms are ST from Hormagants and a Trygon small ST for lowest arms, green stuff ofr the Sacs on the sides.
Barbed Hierodule
The base Size is same size as the actually Forge World base, it was a Cork Board with Harden wood on bottom for Potting Plants to sit on (I Copy the size from a friend and cut it out to size.
I used a Tervigon/Tyrannofex Kit with 2 Rupture Cannons, Hotglue for filler and Green stuff for Shaping.
Im new to Green Stuff FYI
Next Conversion will be a Harridan from Tygon and Hive Crones Box sets.
My Painting job is Prime white, paint red and Dip in Min Wax
I Really wanted to use the Malanthrope (not venoms lol) and the Barbed Hierodule. I used my Malanthrope in one game so far and I loved it!!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/14 06:45:05
I don't think you know what a static gunline is, or you are using the termanology wrong, or you just don't play ground nids much. It might not entirely have jump packs or wings but it doesn't automatically mean the style of play is walling up in a static gunline. They are pushing up the board as fast as they can, full move every turn thanks to move through cover, running if they aren't in range. Running 6 rolls for Onslaught, and a re-roll for Master of Ambush to help push a unit up the table even quicker, aiming to get within that 18" spot of death where your army can outfirepower practically any army in the game, and threatening assaults to extend that advantage further. This is somewhat anecdotal, but practicing and playing against top tier builds, there isn't a single top tier build that I wasn't at the very least evenly trading games with.
Care to enlighten me how Biovores that can't shoot if they move are not a static gunline? The Warriors that have to babysit them thus also not being able to move? So 1 of the 7 units in the formation moves up the board (losing a 1 BS and the Re-Roll of the Warriors while he does it) and that qualifies it to not be a static gunline?
I like the LAN but it is a static gunline.
Well I think it's counter intuitive, but just because a unit has 48" range doesn't mean you have to sit it backfield, you move it up behind the Warriors while they provide Synapse for units both ahead of and behind it. If anyone is playing Living Artillery or any style of Nids at all like a static gunline, it's not hard to see why they are getting bad results. We aren't Tau, and LAN is designed for a very aggressive style of build .
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/14 10:31:47
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/12/14 10:37:01
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I don't see why I would move my squishy Biovores up the field for the sake of the Warriors shooting their guns. 48" is usually enough to shoot at what you please and when hidden behind a ruin you're going to be shooting stuff that can't shoot back.
Who said I was getting bad results? I specifically mentioned I liked the formation and I win more games than I lose with Tyranids. The question isn't "Is LAN bad" it's "Is it better than taking 1-2 extra Flyrants?" On a pure competitive stand point it's not.
Flyrants are one of if not the most cost effective units in the entire game, they have 1-2 counters at most and those would need to be list tailored. There is reason the majority of this thread (myself included) won't be running 5 of them.
Edit: That Malanthrope conversion looks boss.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/14 10:37:30
2014/12/14 10:41:11
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/12/14 14:40:38
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
It seems to me the Flyers vs Grounders may be more meta-dependent than anything else. If your local plays heavy on anti-flyers, then obviously taking less flyers wastes the points they spent on skyfire options, but if skyfire and enemy flyers are scarce then spamming flyers yourself would be a better option.
One thing I'm not sure of is what happens when your ground lost comes up against heavy flyer spam- other than Flyrants Tyranids don't have much to hurt enemy flyers. They can dodge out of range of our Fexes, and nothing has skyfire. Do our TMC have the durability to ignore most flyers and take out the rest of their army?
@Amishprn88
And I have to add that's a sweet Malanthrope conversion.
My $0.02 as I love LAN is that even if Exocrine is less point-effective/durable wounds, both it, the Warriors, and Biovores frequently get ignored by opponents dealing with two Flyrants, and a couple Dakkafaxes dropped in by Tyrannocytes.
Its either the psychological play, or poor play, but in my experience people under-estimating the consistent work LAN does, usually just leave it alone to be a contributor all game long.
I've also noticed locally that another quirky 'Nid psychology trick is that Tervigons (especially Troop Tervigons) are disproportionate bullet-magnets. People get so sure that the resulting Synaptic Backlash will be worth it, that it feels like people just really want them dead, even at the expense of better targets. :-p
Edit: And emphasis on "consistent" work. The Exocrine and Biovore buffs from the Warriors in this formation shouldn't be over-sold. A lot of formations are about tricking FOCs, but this one outright takes two solid/above-average units, and makes them tremendously potent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/14 15:57:44
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)
2014/12/14 17:04:58
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
SHUPPET wrote: Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
Actually I would be interested to hear you spell them out. The two hardest counters to 5 Flyrants that I can think of would be Tau with a good dose of Skyfire/marker light support and Necron AV 13 wall with a couple flyers. Not that tyrants can't deal with av 13 but when you have 5-6 of them and a bunch of tesla, it gets tougher. Thankfully the template is auto allocated to the barge (take that CCB Lord!) but they're still a tough nut to crack. Neither of those lists is easy for a ground pound list. Frankly, I would much rather take my chances with pentyrants over any ground list in those two scenarios.
As has been said, though a pentyrant list is not without weaknesses, it is a great TAC list due to the incredible versatility of the Flyrant. There is almost nothing that it can't handle (or at least drown in wounds). Anything with LAN is absolutely going to be on a different power level than pentyrants because you're not just giving up two Flyrants - you're giving up three. Since LAN is a formation you cannot self-ally or bring in Leviathan at all (I mean you could run leviathan as your primary CAD but no obsec at all is a poor decision). There is nothing wrong with LAN - it is good, effective and will win you games. However, pentyrants are simply on a different level. They will win you tournaments. I don't think that there is a winning situation for an opponent trying to construct his army now. Tau and Necrons will be able to beat it, but most armies will fail to bring enough AA to deal with five Flyrants, whereas if they do bring enough, then they will be handicapped against the rest of the field because they will have devoted a disproportionate amount of their army towards a threat that they will not always see.
2014/12/14 17:29:51
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
SHUPPET wrote: Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
Actually I would be interested to hear you spell them out. The two hardest counters to 5 Flyrants that I can think of would be Tau with a good dose of Skyfire/marker light support and Necron AV 13 wall with a couple flyers. Not that tyrants can't deal with av 13 but when you have 5-6 of them and a bunch of tesla, it gets tougher. Thankfully the template is auto allocated to the barge (take that CCB Lord!) but they're still a tough nut to crack. Neither of those lists is easy for a ground pound list. Frankly, I would much rather take my chances with pentyrants over any ground list in those two scenarios.
As has been said, though a pentyrant list is not without weaknesses, it is a great TAC list due to the incredible versatility of the Flyrant. There is almost nothing that it can't handle (or at least drown in wounds). Anything with LAN is absolutely going to be on a different power level than pentyrants because you're not just giving up two Flyrants - you're giving up three. Since LAN is a formation you cannot self-ally or bring in Leviathan at all (I mean you could run leviathan as your primary CAD but no obsec at all is a poor decision). There is nothing wrong with LAN - it is good, effective and will win you games. However, pentyrants are simply on a different level. They will win you tournaments. I don't think that there is a winning situation for an opponent trying to construct his army now. Tau and Necrons will be able to beat it, but most armies will fail to bring enough AA to deal with five Flyrants, whereas if they do bring enough, then they will be handicapped against the rest of the field because they will have devoted a disproportionate amount of their army towards a threat that they will not always see.
No OBSEC means less than you would think against the kinds of lists a Primary HiveFleet, and LAN would be strong against. How many squirly OBSEC troops of your opponents are going to get and stay in a back-field that has three Flyrants plus LAN (which already caters to anti-troop)?
I won't join the thinking that says Pentyrant isn't OMG OP crazy-sauce, but Leviathan Primary + Lan is hella strong.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)
2014/12/14 17:45:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
SHUPPET wrote: Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
Actually I would be interested to hear you spell them out. The two hardest counters to 5 Flyrants that I can think of would be Tau with a good dose of Skyfire/marker light support and Necron AV 13 wall with a couple flyers. Not that tyrants can't deal with av 13 but when you have 5-6 of them and a bunch of tesla, it gets tougher. Thankfully the template is auto allocated to the barge (take that CCB Lord!) but they're still a tough nut to crack. Neither of those lists is easy for a ground pound list. Frankly, I would much rather take my chances with pentyrants over any ground list in those two scenarios.
As has been said, though a pentyrant list is not without weaknesses, it is a great TAC list due to the incredible versatility of the Flyrant. There is almost nothing that it can't handle (or at least drown in wounds). Anything with LAN is absolutely going to be on a different power level than pentyrants because you're not just giving up two Flyrants - you're giving up three. Since LAN is a formation you cannot self-ally or bring in Leviathan at all (I mean you could run leviathan as your primary CAD but no obsec at all is a poor decision). There is nothing wrong with LAN - it is good, effective and will win you games. However, pentyrants are simply on a different level. They will win you tournaments. I don't think that there is a winning situation for an opponent trying to construct his army now. Tau and Necrons will be able to beat it, but most armies will fail to bring enough AA to deal with five Flyrants, whereas if they do bring enough, then they will be handicapped against the rest of the field because they will have devoted a disproportionate amount of their army towards a threat that they will not always see.
No OBSEC means less than you would think against the kinds of lists a Primary HiveFleet, and LAN would be strong against. How many squirly OBSEC troops of your opponents are going to get and stay in a back-field that has three Flyrants plus LAN (which already caters to anti-troop)?
I won't join the thinking that says Pentyrant isn't OMG OP crazy-sauce, but Leviathan Primary + Lan is hella strong.
Well yeah, if you're ROFLstomping then of course it won't matter. But in a close game (lists of similar power levels, generals of similar competency) it actually does make all the difference. It's the difference between scoring and not. Without obsec, you can be denied the ability to score. You're literally giving those points over to your opponent. With it, you'll at least be denying them to your opponent if he has obsec, and keeping it if he doesn't. In close games, it often can be the difference maker.
Not downing on leviathan plus LAN. So many good options. But if you run into another list as good as yours run by a general as good as yourself, you are inherently playing at a disadvantage. Not the end of the world, but not my ideal scenario if I can avoid it.
2014/12/14 18:20:45
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
SHUPPET wrote: Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
Actually I would be interested to hear you spell them out. The two hardest counters to 5 Flyrants that I can think of would be Tau with a good dose of Skyfire/marker light support and Necron AV 13 wall with a couple flyers. Not that tyrants can't deal with av 13 but when you have 5-6 of them and a bunch of tesla, it gets tougher. Thankfully the template is auto allocated to the barge (take that CCB Lord!) but they're still a tough nut to crack. Neither of those lists is easy for a ground pound list. Frankly, I would much rather take my chances with pentyrants over any ground list in those two scenarios.
As has been said, though a pentyrant list is not without weaknesses, it is a great TAC list due to the incredible versatility of the Flyrant. There is almost nothing that it can't handle (or at least drown in wounds). Anything with LAN is absolutely going to be on a different power level than pentyrants because you're not just giving up two Flyrants - you're giving up three. Since LAN is a formation you cannot self-ally or bring in Leviathan at all (I mean you could run leviathan as your primary CAD but no obsec at all is a poor decision). There is nothing wrong with LAN - it is good, effective and will win you games. However, pentyrants are simply on a different level. They will win you tournaments. I don't think that there is a winning situation for an opponent trying to construct his army now. Tau and Necrons will be able to beat it, but most armies will fail to bring enough AA to deal with five Flyrants, whereas if they do bring enough, then they will be handicapped against the rest of the field because they will have devoted a disproportionate amount of their army towards a threat that they will not always see.
No OBSEC means less than you would think against the kinds of lists a Primary HiveFleet, and LAN would be strong against. How many squirly OBSEC troops of your opponents are going to get and stay in a back-field that has three Flyrants plus LAN (which already caters to anti-troop)?
I won't join the thinking that says Pentyrant isn't OMG OP crazy-sauce, but Leviathan Primary + Lan is hella strong.
Well yeah, if you're ROFLstomping then of course it won't matter. But in a close game (lists of similar power levels, generals of similar competency) it actually does make all the difference. It's the difference between scoring and not. Without obsec, you can be denied the ability to score. You're literally giving those points over to your opponent. With it, you'll at least be denying them to your opponent if he has obsec, and keeping it if he doesn't. In close games, it often can be the difference maker.
Not downing on leviathan plus LAN. So many good options. But if you run into another list as good as yours run by a general as good as yourself, you are inherently playing at a disadvantage. Not the end of the world, but not my ideal scenario if I can avoid it.
Most of the Pentrant list I am seeing are basicly not objective secured either. At most you have 2 ripper swarms, but usually I am seeing Muscaloids for all the required Troop choices which forgoes scoring completely. So not much difference in practice from the lists in use for OS.
2014/12/14 20:49:46
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
LAN won't work so well against this type of list and I will tell you why. Exocrine just does not have the range to any of the Tau units. He'd get shot down before he gets a chance to do anything. Biovores aren't really efficient vs 2+ units. There will be no soft targets (i.e. fire warriors) for them. As for markerlights, they can stay in the ruins and spread out like this to minimize the impact of the biovores:
Only against biovores, my opponent should put his buffmander in the center to soak up most of the damage with his 2+ 4W body and he should be spreading out his marker drones even more. They can always Jump-Shoot-Jump to spread out some more.
You are wrong for several reasons.
1) Markerlights are Heavy 1. So they can't move and shoot at full BS. If they want to use M-S-J, they are snap shooting. That is one of the many reasons taking them as a squad is worse idea than taking them joined to skyrays, or suites.
2) There are 3 threats in this list. #1 the marklight squad, #2, & #3 the Missileside squads. I have 5 way to deal with them in my standard TAC list. 1) Gargoyles & Hormagants. They are easy to tarpit, and have to waste turns shooting at the gargoyles or Gants less they get caught. Once Caught, they don't get free. 2) Biovores. They outrange the marker lights and Missilesides, and can stack wounds enough to take them out. A pinned squad of Broadsides is nearly as good as a dead one. 3) Crones. I run 2 of them. The Drool Cannon ignores cover, and Markerlight Armor. I can paint big swaths of dead markerlights on my 1st turn. They can also vector strike and ID Broadsides, but that usually doesn't happen until turn 2. 4) Flyrants, You are well versed in their abilities. 5) Dakkafex and Exocrine. These guys aren't involved for a while, starting to contribute on turn 2. But they do get a 2-3+ cover save in the interim. They pick up the pieces if the flyrants don't take care of business before dying.
3) Everything in my list is expendable. That Tau list is going to take care of 1-2 of the 5 threats to them, depending on 1st turn, and a few other factors. Most likely they alphastrike and kill a flyrant or a Malanthrope. Then before I can neutralize them they kill either the Gargoyles, or the other flyrant. That isn't a huge problem for me, because their markerlights are irreplaceable, once they are dead or tarpitted, the game is a breeze.
I've run my LAN list against Tau lists much like this. I've also run it against much more threatening tau lists that have skyrays and bursttides. 2 Skyfire burstideds, 2 Skyrays, and 3 Missilesides can usually beat me. This isn't that. This is far, far less threatening to a normal Tyranid TAC list, and also less threatening to your Flyrant spam. That doesn't mean you will have an easy time. You've got fewer threats in your list than I do in my LAN list, and each casualty taken is more meaningful because of your high cost units, and lack of redundancy. I've played the games, I've run the tests I know what this Tau list can do, and if I'm running my LAN list against it, I am not afraid. If I'm running my Barbed Heirodule list, its a tossup.
If this Tau list looks to you like a Tyranid Hard counter, I suggest you drop 1 Hive Tyrant for 2 squads of 20 Gargolyes, and try it out again. I think you will be surprised.
2014/12/14 22:58:24
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Ok, now that I just finished by battle report against Tau, I am back! I'll go over some of these comments and my thoughts on the LAN a little later. Again, you can find my report here:
1) Markerlights are Heavy 1. So they can't move and shoot at full BS. If they want to use M-S-J, they are snap shooting. That is one of the many reasons taking them as a squad is worse idea than taking them joined to skyrays, or suites.
Just a small correction before I go into more detail, but marker drones are relentless. It's a Tau thing with Tau jetpack units. They can move, shoot at full BS and then move again in the Assault phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/14 23:00:00
1) Markerlights are Heavy 1. So they can't move and shoot at full BS. If they want to use M-S-J, they are snap shooting. That is one of the many reasons taking them as a squad is worse idea than taking them joined to skyrays, or suites.
Just a small correction before I go into more detail, but marker drones are relentless. It's a Tau thing with Tau jetpack units. They can move, shoot at full BS and then move again in the Assault phase.
Yep. You are correct. Jetpack unit type has relentless. I thought it was something conferred by suites (it is but not needed), but I was also being dumb on account of buffmander-lite wearing a suite and being in that unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/14 23:28:51
So I would look there. If you are cool with that lack, the I say go Wild. 
Toss in a Dakkafex, and two Zoeys in Broods of one that gives 4 more 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
(building)
(less)
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
Emperor's Spears 2500
