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So I've been cycling my way through the various formations, and now my eyes are set on the Skytyrant formation. Here's a Couple of questions I wanted to bring before the group, to see who has used the bugger.

1. What do you outfit the Tyrant with?
2. How many Gargoyles do you like to bring?

For number one, the seemingly obvious choices are the Reaper of Obliterax and EGrubs as a HP stripper/overwatch for Knights. But, the other two upgrades I see being worth it are Adrenal Glands for strength 8 on the charge, and the Maw-Calws potentially. Once that Flyrant kills a model with the Claws, the whole unit gets Preferred enemy vs a Codex, which is pretty darn cool and very useful for the Gargoyles attached. At a low cost it seems worth it, but it also seems to be not a big deal to cut it out if points are scarce. Right now I think the "default" Skytyrant for me is Wings, AGlands, EGrubs and the Reaper, with the Maw claws sneaking in if I can spare the points. What do you guys like to run them with?

Secondly, the number of Gargoyles... I own 40 of the suckers, but I was thinking that 30 would be a pretty good number without making the unit too expensive. I am tempted to up the ante to 40, but that would requite I do a little more painting... I think 30 will be good for now though.

So, who here has used the Skytyrant, and how did you kit it out?

 jifel wrote:
So I've been cycling my way through the various formations, and now my eyes are set on the Skytyrant formation. Here's a Couple of questions I wanted to bring before the group, to see who has used the bugger.

1. What do you outfit the Tyrant with?
2. How many Gargoyles do you like to bring?

For number one, the seemingly obvious choices are the Reaper of Obliterax and EGrubs as a HP stripper/overwatch for Knights. But, the other two upgrades I see being worth it are Adrenal Glands for strength 8 on the charge, and the Maw-Calws potentially. Once that Flyrant kills a model with the Claws, the whole unit gets Preferred enemy vs a Codex, which is pretty darn cool and very useful for the Gargoyles attached. At a low cost it seems worth it, but it also seems to be not a big deal to cut it out if points are scarce. Right now I think the "default" Skytyrant for me is Wings, AGlands, EGrubs and the Reaper, with the Maw claws sneaking in if I can spare the points. What do you guys like to run them with?

Secondly, the number of Gargoyles... I own 40 of the suckers, but I was thinking that 30 would be a pretty good number without making the unit too expensive. I am tempted to up the ante to 40, but that would requite I do a little more painting... I think 30 will be good for now though.

So, who here has used the Skytyrant, and how did you kit it out?

This mostly theory, but I think the trade off is MawClaws, or the Reaper (Go big, or save points) Without the Mawclaws I think you really want to plump for Ancient enemy (?) the one that give Prefered Enemy. I personally lean towards Toxic, MawClaws Scything, Thorax Hive...but a PE Reaper Tyrant is dead killy. I lean heavily towards spending as few points as I can, so I expect to use x20 Gargoyles (plus I only own 20 ) I don't think more than 30 is a good use of points though.

I really like SkyTyrant, it gives us the fast moving CC beast we have been missing

What is a decent TAC loadout for shrikes? I'm thinking Rending Claws and a Deathspitter keeps their cost down while letting them threaten several unit types. They can't crack really tough nuts, but they can take on everything in between.

 jifel wrote:
So I've been cycling my way through the various formations, and now my eyes are set on the Skytyrant formation. Here's a Couple of questions I wanted to bring before the group, to see who has used the bugger.

1. What do you outfit the Tyrant with?
2. How many Gargoyles do you like to bring?

For number one, the seemingly obvious choices are the Reaper of Obliterax and EGrubs as a HP stripper/overwatch for Knights. But, the other two upgrades I see being worth it are Adrenal Glands for strength 8 on the charge, and the Maw-Calws potentially. Once that Flyrant kills a model with the Claws, the whole unit gets Preferred enemy vs a Codex, which is pretty darn cool and very useful for the Gargoyles attached. At a low cost it seems worth it, but it also seems to be not a big deal to cut it out if points are scarce. Right now I think the "default" Skytyrant for me is Wings, AGlands, EGrubs and the Reaper, with the Maw claws sneaking in if I can spare the points. What do you guys like to run them with?

Secondly, the number of Gargoyles... I own 40 of the suckers, but I was thinking that 30 would be a pretty good number without making the unit too expensive. I am tempted to up the ante to 40, but that would requite I do a little more painting... I think 30 will be good for now though.

So, who here has used the Skytyrant, and how did you kit it out?

Here's a little rundown.

Guns:
E. Grubs: A+. Mandatory, you don't want a dreadnought stopping your skytyrant from doing what it is meant to do.
Other Thorax Weapon: D. You should be taking E.Grubs unless you are specifically list tailoring.
Heavy Venom Cannon: C-. This isn't a shooty deathstar.
Stranglethorn Cannon: C-. This isn't a shooty deathstar.
TL Deathspitter: F.
TL Devourer: C. Losing one attack is not worth it.

Tyrant Upgrades.
Indescribably Horror: D. Everything you care about is fearless.
Prehensile Pincer: D. What were they thinking when they added tails?
Old Adversary: A+. The main problem with the Tyrant as a Melee deathstar is not enough hits. Against most low Toughness things the allows you to reroll wounds as well eliminating the need and consequences of Toxin Sacs.

Bio Artifacts:
Maw Claws: C. Sounds good, but impossible to reliably take advantage of it. Your 1st combat is usually going to be your biggest, and so you want the BS+LW or RoO, then in later combats when you can afford an offensive penalty, you also don't need preferred enemy on your gargoyles anymore.
Miasma Cannon: D. You need all of your attacks. No Guns. Also you don't want to risk killing yourself out of charge range.
Reaper of Obliterax: A-. Shred is nice, but if you have old adversary you are already reaping the primary benefit of it, and it only really helps you with high T MC's where the +1 Strength is actually a negative.
The Ymgarl Factor: C+. This is the best place to put it, but it costs too much.

Biomorphs:
Acid Blood: C-. Too Expensive.
Adrenal Glands: B-. Fleet would be awesome, but unfortunately adding it to the gargoyles is not worth it. +1 Strength doesn't really matter except against vehicles, and skytyrant is not for killing vehicles.
Regen: B+. Too expensive, however it is highly likely that you get 1 wound back per game. Put your Tyrant out front, and Jink for a 2+, and take wounds on that 2+ until you fail one, then start LOSing to the Gargoyles.
Toxin Sacs: D. This is worse than OA or Shred vs almost everything. Only exception is a high toughness MC with Eternal Warrior like a GUO with endurance.

CC Weapons:
BS: B-. Initiative 5 is not high enough.
BS + LW: A. ID on 6's is what you need when you run into multi wound things.
RCs: D. There is literally no situation where this matters.
STs. A. An extra attack is important, and they are free.

My favorite builds Are
Tyrant (Wings, BS + LW, E.Grubs, Old Adversary, Scything Talons) with 20-30 Gargoyles or
Tyrant (Wings, RoO, E.Grubs, Old Adversary, Scything Talons) with 30 Gargoyles or
Tyrant (Wings, RoO, E.Grubs, Old Adversary, Scything Talons, Regen) with 20-30 Gargoyles

Here is a rundown vs a Wraith Knight:
Equip Hits Wounds IDs BS+LW 4.00 0.66 0.66 OA, BS+LW 4.33 1.04 1.04 RoO 4.00 2.22 1.11 RoO, AG 4.00 3.00 1.00 OA, RoO 5.33 2.96 1.48 OA, RoO, AG 5.33 4.00 1.33 Notice how the performance gets better with OA and worse with Adrenal Glands. I know how I would spend 15 points.

Here is a rundown vs an Imperial Knight
Equip Hits Glances Bonus* Net HP Smash 0.67 0.59 0.15 0.74 Smash (OA) 0.89 0.79 0.20 0.99 RoO 4.00 0.67 0.00 0.67 RoO, AG 4.00 1.33 0.22 1.56 OA, RoO 5.33 0.89 0.00 0.89 OA, RoO, AG 5.33 1.78 0.30 2.07
*Bonus are the bonus hull points you will do on average due to pens with an explodes result.
So Adrenal Glands do give you a bonus there, but most cases you should take the 1.6 extra hull point you get for E.Grubs Wall of Death, and in that case you are still better off smashing.


I'll be happy to run math for other wargear options and matchups for you if you want.

Hey I'm just starting my own Tyranid swarm and I had a few questions regarding things. How do they fare against daemons/orks? My friend is a daemon phenom and I haven't had too much luck with any other army. Same with my other friend, he plays Orks. More questions to follow as they become apparent to me.

 Gamerely wrote:
Hey I'm just starting my own Tyranid swarm and I had a few questions regarding things. How do they fare against daemons/orks? My friend is a daemon phenom and I haven't had too much luck with any other army. Same with my other friend, he plays Orks. More questions to follow as they become apparent to me.

Tyranids are actually remarkably good against both Daemons and Orks. If those are your problem armies, Nids can make those problems go away!

@tag8833:

I appreciate the writeup, and I must agree with you on almost all of your points. The only one I diagree with you on is the Adrenal Glands. When the Reaper is taken, I feel like they become an A+ as it gives a very important Strength 8, that magical threshold where it will instant kill most Characters, and also glances most Vehicles on a 2+, which coincidentally makes it so that a Skytyrant now averages more than 3 glances against rear Armor 10. Useful I would think!

Right now, my current leaning is:
Flyrant with Reaper, AGlands, EGrubs, and Old Adversary with 25 Gargoyles.

I know that the OA and Reaper is half redundant, but I still like the reroll 1s to hit to make me feel like the Scything Talons actually matter...

 jifel wrote:
@tag8833:

I appreciate the writeup, and I must agree with you on almost all of your points. The only one I diagree with you on is the Adrenal Glands. When the Reaper is taken, I feel like they become an A+ as it gives a very important Strength 8, that magical threshold where it will instant kill most Characters, and also glances most Vehicles on a 2+, which coincidentally makes it so that a Skytyrant now averages more than 3 glances against rear Armor 10. Useful I would think!

Right now, my current leaning is:
Flyrant with Reaper, AGlands, EGrubs, and Old Adversary with 25 Gargoyles.

I know that the OA and Reaper is half redundant, but I still like the reroll 1s to hit to make me feel like the Scything Talons actually matter...

You make a Compelling point. So I looked at a few things. First here is what it looks like vs a T4 model:
Equip Hits Wounds IDs BS+LW 4.00 3.33 0.67 OA, BS+LW 5.33 5.19 1.04 RoO 4.00 3.89 0.78 OA, RoO 5.33 5.19 1.04 OA, RoO, AG 5.33 5.19 5.19
Except for the number of IDs, the performance for OA, BS+LW is exactly the same as the performance for OA, RoO, AG. So if you've got a multiwound T4 character with a good invul, or many multiwound T4 models like Warriors, then you would indeed want to spend the points.

Now lets look at what happens when you charge a Vehicle. *Note HOW is not included*

AV 10
Equip Hits Glances Explodes Smash 0.67 0.67 11% Smash (OA) 0.89 0.89 15% BS+LW 4.00 2.00 22% OA, BS+LW 5.33 2.67 30% RoO 4.00 2.67 33% OA, RoO 5.33 3.56 44% OA, RoO, AG 5.33 4.44 59%
That is a pretty significant advantage, But with E.Grubs, I'm still going to take out most AV 12 with my cheaper version.

AV 11
Equip Hits Glances Explodes Smash 0.67 0.67 9% Smash (OA) 0.89 0.89 12% BS+LW 4.00 1.33 11% OA, BS+LW 5.33 1.78 15% RoO 4.00 2.00 22% OA, RoO 5.33 2.67 30% OA, RoO, AG 5.33 3.56 44%
If it makes the charge it can kill an Annihilation barge in one round of combat, which is pretty useful.

AV 12
Equip Hits Glances Explodes Smash 0.67 0.65 9% Smash (OA) 0.89 0.86 12% BS+LW 4.00 0.67 0% OA, BS+LW 5.33 0.89 0% RoO 4.00 1.33 11% OA, RoO 5.33 1.78 15% OA, RoO, AG 5.33 2.67 30%
Most AV12 are walkers, and letting them charge into the Wall of Death is better than charging them, but if you do have to you have even odds of killing it with your build. Also useful vs Baneblades.

AV 13
Equip Hits Glances Explodes Smash 0.67 0.59 7% Smash (OA) 0.89 0.79 10% RoO 4.00 0.67 0% OA, RoO 5.33 0.89 0% OA, RoO, AG 5.33 1.78 15%
Don't charge Gorkanaunts or CCBs, well maybe CCBs, but you should let the Gargoyles do the damage.

AV 14
Equip Hits Glances Explodes Smash 0.67 0.50 6% Smash (OA) 0.89 0.67 7% OA, RoO, AG 5.33 0.89 0%
Not going to do much vs Land Raiders, but it does more than I expected.

We are talking about 40 points more on a model that is almost certainly going to die before the end of the game. Will it justify those points? If you get the charge on a Group of Raveners or an Annihilation Barge, then the answer is yes. I'm not completely convinced, but I also gave it a short shift in my initial review.

ETA: It does make me wonder. 40 Points is the same cost as the Ymgarl Factor... Nope, still not worth it unless you are mainly killing Space marines.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What is a decent TAC loadout for shrikes? I'm thinking Rending Claws and a Deathspitter keeps their cost down while letting them threaten several unit types. They can't crack really tough nuts, but they can take on everything in between.

Rending Claws are a very good choice. I consider Deathspitters optional, plain Devourers do pretty dang well. One alternative build I really like is Flesh Hooks, and Scything Talons...that gives you two pistol shots, and counts as grenades. With the Rending Claws they can be surprisingly killy.

I've got two lists that I want to try out but I don't know which one would be more competitive. I wanted to base them around two Dimachaerons in Pods (as i'm just about to get the model) but I'm unsure on the best way to support them.

List One


List Two


Thoughts and criticisms would be appreciated!

 Frozocrone wrote:
I've got two lists that I want to try out but I don't know which one would be more competitive. I wanted to base them around two Dimachaerons in Pods (as i'm just about to get the model) but I'm unsure on the best way to support them.

Thoughts and criticisms would be appreciated!

If you are reserving 550 points that are assaulty, you should modify your reserves in some way. I think you probably drop one flyrant from list 2 so that it fits in a CAD and can take an Aegis with a Comms relay. Add more gargoyles, and upgrade you troops to Rippers with 1 squad of roughly 20 Hormagants. Add Lictors to taste. Going to struggle mightily vs Ad Lance, but at least your Dimacharons will get a chance to assault before turn 5.

I am not sold on Dimacharons in a pod. 40% of the time they show up and die immediately (Tau, Eldar). 40% of the time I've basically got the game won without them (Space Marines, Orks). They only impact 1 in 5 games (Necrons, IG), and in some games you want them on the board to start, and are better off dropping the pods empty (Demons, Drop Pods)

So I've been thinking about the Hive Fleet Detachment and the Warlord table that comes with it. It seems lackluster compared to the very decent Strategic table, however I wonder if it has some merit if you plan to use a Tyranid Prime with either a large unit of Warriors or a large brood of Devilgaunts.

Rolling on that table gives you a reasonable chance of obtaining either Infiltrate for the Prime and its unit (which admittedly you can get from Strategic too), but also the chance to get the whole unit Preferred Enemy which would make either a large unit of Warriors or a large unit of Devilgaunts very dangerous at range without having to go through the trouble of running the Maw Claws and hoping to kill something in melee.

You also make your Tyrants slightly less appealing as they won't grant Slay the Warlord.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Might want to simplify those point costs- it may be a little too descriptive for dakkadakka.

But it looks like you shouldn't have too much trouble to me with 3 Flyrants.

Edited the points cost, good catch. I just copied and pasted from the list document.

What would be your target priority? I'm thinking take out the Deathstrikes before they can fire, but then I've got Pask and his Punisher to worry about.

Spread out (and spread out objectives as well). Kill his transports/troops. Box him in to prevent him escaping. If you get a chance to kill Pask, go for it but don't go out of the ways to do so. If he's in the front, then kill him. However, most likely he will be in the back with transports as a screen. In that case, kill transports in the 1st pass with your flyrants (they'll probably be out of egrubs range anyways). Then in the 2nd pass, you can take out Pask. Also, make sure to deploy your flyrants 31" from Pask (his effective range is 30") and you won't have to worry about his alpha-strike if you are going 2nd.

Mawlocs when they come in should take out transports or any disembarked troops. I wouldn't worry too much about deathstrikes as long as you space out.

 Wilson wrote:
So here's a question for you all;

How do I beat this???

Sentry pylons are horrific and the fact I can't jink against them is brutal. How do I deal with them??? I'd need two turns of shooting at them with my 3 Flyrants to statistically finish them - that's mental.

But if I focus on the pylons then I'm ignoring the 15 wraiths Floating around the board.

I love this necron list. HATE the fact I have to play it though :[

I don't believe those pylons should be able to hit your FMC's when they are swooping so just go and kill everything else. You can save the pylonstar for last. Just make sure you spread out. And try to go first against them. Going 2nd can be really, really bad. You may think that staying within malanthrope range is good against them, but it really isn't.

BTW, pure RAW for the deathray is stupid. Say, you have 2 flyrants in range of your malan. He then hits all 3 with the DR line with 3 pylons. Do you know how many S10 AP1 hits each unit will take? By pure RAW, that's 18 S10 AP1 hits on EACH FRIGGIN' UNIT!!!

Anyways, some tips:

1. Always stay in cover or jink against Pylon shooting.

2. Target priority. I would go with this:

A) Farseer+jetbikes if you can reach them. You don't want that bastard summoning. Keep him in Shadows range if it is convenient, but don't go out of your ways to do so.

B) Wraiths or Annibarges. Don't go out of your ways to kill those annibarges because it may take you out of position. Whichever is more convenient (most likely the wraiths), focus on that. Make sure to FOCUS-FIRE on them.

C) Troops

D) Pylonstar. If you focus on it, try to position your flyrants so that they hit in on the side without any characters.

3. SPREAD OUT!

4. Be prepared to lose units. Don't play in too much of a protective mode. That's the problem with a lot of players sometimes. They're too afraid to lose units and so they don't play them like they should. Treat every single unit in your army as a pawn waiting to be sacrificed if it can bring your army closer to victory. And that includes your flyrants as well.

5. Mawloc can go after the pylonstar. They won't do as much damage due to majority T7, but they'll hit probably 6-8 times if they land directly. Priority should be the summoning farseer, but if that is not feasible, then go after the pylonstar with your mawloc(s). BTW, if the farseer uses his spirit stones to summon daemons, he won't have an Invuln save. That means you can potentially kill him with the mawloc or force him to do a lot of Look-Out-Sirs.

Ok, hope that helps.

tag8833 wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Sentry pylons are horrific and the fact I can't jink against them is brutal. How do I deal with them??? I'd need two turns of shooting at them with my 3 Flyrants to statistically finish them - that's mental.

We always play sentry pylon's Death Ray as a Beam. Beams can't hit Swooping FMC's. So keep to the Sky. Hunt down the Anhillation barges, and then blow up the Wraiths and jetbikes. A low model count list with a Barbed heirodule and 2-3 flyrants will make mincemeat of that list.

Also, AFAIK Sentry Pylons don't ignore cover, so Jink Away, and keep everything on the ground in the range of a shrouded giver.

ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.

Correct, they don't ignore cover.

However, even cover might not be enough due to the idiotic wording of their rule. Say, they hit 3 rippers (just 1 unit) and 1 flyrant (assuming on the ground still) with 3 pylons. Guess how many hits each unit takes? 24 friggin' S10 hits!!! Even cover won't be enough to save them.

 Wilson wrote:

Obyron and the overlord go with the pylons and teleport around the board so I cannot ignore them and the TO has faq'd it that a death ray hits everything ( expect flyers) so I cannot ignore them.

Even flyers who are flying?!? That's crazy!!!

You may want to double-check with the TO during the game, but that is very much against RAW or RAI.

But if that is the case, then you've got no choice but to focus your flyrants against the star. Just try to position them such that you shooting will be closest to the pylons themselves rather than against the characters.

However, if that is not possible, then go after the character with Phaeron. If you take him out, then the unit cannot shoot after moving. That will basically immobilize them if they want to shoot.

tag8833 wrote:

3rd I'm not sure about IC's joining pylons. Because pylons can't be locked in Combat but IC's obviously can, so if you ever manage to get an assault off on the pylons, you will separate them from the IC's, and thus take away his teleport trick, and you should try to get a TO ruling on this. Also, while my RAW interpretation is that only Obyron must be able to move to teleport, you might dig into this a bit, because the pylons are immobile.

4th Remember that since the Pylons are Artillery, the IC's can't LOS wounds to them. So a single Warp Lance from a Flyrant will take out one of the IC's. He might LOS from one IC to the other, but make him take those 3++ invuls. If you want to tailor, you could throw some zoeys in a pod instead of the Dimacharon.

I don't quite remember if it was a FW or a LVO/BAO FAQ, but it basically says that if there is a character in the unit, then the pylons can be locked in combat, at least while the character(s) is still alive. However, after he dies, then they are no longer locked in combat. Makes sense to me.

Pylons are not immobile. They can move. They just can't shoot while doing so....unless there is a character in the unit to give them Relentless (i.e. Phaeron).

Obyron can teleport his unit out of combat. It is RAW from his rules. His Veil of Darkness is better than the normal Veils of Darkness.

Eldercaveman wrote:
I thought the trick with the PylonStar wasn't so much jumping it around, but deep striking it in and messing things up with it? Getting into combat with it would be a good counter to be fair. Chances are you'll take out the rest of the models, and then sweep it off the board.

Cannot sweep as the pylons are Fearless. You can't lock them in combat because Obyron can teleport them out of it with his special rule (he is the only one in the Necron army that can do this).

Edit: Found the relevant FAQ rulings,

From the main 40kGT FAQ's

A template or blast shooting attack with Skyfire can hit a Swooping FMC. If the blast would scatter on a
ground unit, models on the ground under the template are hit normally as well.

From the Additional Caledonian FAQ's

A Doom Scythe’s Death Ray and the Sentry Pylon’s Focused Death Ray may hit Swooping
FMC’s like other Blast/Template weapons. However the ray’s initial point may only target
the Swooping FMC if it is also using the Skyfire rule.

Fortunately, the pylons don't have Skyfire.

Just make sure not to have another unit nearby where they can start the line off of in order to hit your flyrant.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What is a decent TAC loadout for shrikes? I'm thinking Rending Claws and a Deathspitter keeps their cost down while letting them threaten several unit types. They can't crack really tough nuts, but they can take on everything in between.

Keep them cheap. I like rending claws. That gives them some flexibility against normal infantry, elite infantry, high-T units and vehicles as well. As for the gun, just keep the standard devourers.

 Gamerely wrote:
Hey I'm just starting my own Tyranid swarm and I had a few questions regarding things. How do they fare against daemons/orks? My friend is a daemon phenom and I haven't had too much luck with any other army. Same with my other friend, he plays Orks. More questions to follow as they become apparent to me.

Run flyrants with devourers. Those are the bane of a daemon armies.

If you like swarms, run gargoyles. They are fast enough to hit multiple Daemons units if you need to. Also run an assault close-combat Tyranid unit. Your goal is to force Daemonic Instability tests against them. You may want to try out the SkyTyrant formation for this.

BTW, you can check out my battle report to see how I dealt with Daemons:

1850 Rematch - Hive Fleet Pandora with Skytyrant Formation vs Chaos Daemons

 jifel wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
Hey I'm just starting my own Tyranid swarm and I had a few questions regarding things. How do they fare against daemons/orks? My friend is a daemon phenom and I haven't had too much luck with any other army. Same with my other friend, he plays Orks. More questions to follow as they become apparent to me.

Tyranids are actually remarkably good against both Daemons and Orks. If those are your problem armies, Nids can make those problems go away!

@tag8833:

I appreciate the writeup, and I must agree with you on almost all of your points. The only one I diagree with you on is the Adrenal Glands. When the Reaper is taken, I feel like they become an A+ as it gives a very important Strength 8, that magical threshold where it will instant kill most Characters, and also glances most Vehicles on a 2+, which coincidentally makes it so that a Skytyrant now averages more than 3 glances against rear Armor 10. Useful I would think!

Right now, my current leaning is:
Flyrant with Reaper, AGlands, EGrubs, and Old Adversary with 25 Gargoyles.

I know that the OA and Reaper is half redundant, but I still like the reroll 1s to hit to make me feel like the Scything Talons actually matter...

I used to think that AG was a necessity for my SkyTyrant formation but now, I don't find it to be all that important. Here's why:

With the Skytyrant formation, you will be doing a lot of multi-assaults. Spread out those gargoyles for wider board control and most of the time, you can and will hit multiple units. In such a case, Furious Charge won't matter. For the rare occassion that you only want to assault 1 unit, yeah, AG may help. But more often than not, I find it better to hit multiple units.

Instead, I'd go with more gargoyles. The more, the better. 30 is probably the sweet spot.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I've got two lists that I want to try out but I don't know which one would be more competitive. I wanted to base them around two Dimachaerons in Pods (as i'm just about to get the model) but I'm unsure on the best way to support them.

List One

Spoiler:

CAD

Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240

3x Rippers w/ DS = 45
3x Rippers w/ DS = 45

Malanthrope = 85

Dimachaeron = 200
Dimachaeron = 200

Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with BLW = 150
Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with BLW = 150
3x Biovores = 120

Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75
Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75
Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75
Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75

Aegis Defence Line w Comms Relay

The list has more Tyrannocytes so that I can overload the opponent with threats. I considered a Bastion, but I was able to fit in the Biovores by having an Aegis and I can have three Large Blasts shot at from behind a 2+ Cover save if I leave the Malanthrope with the Biovores. I also have access to the Strategic Traits with this list which would be more useful.

List Two

Spoiler:

Hive Fleet Detachment
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x TL Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x TL Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x TL Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240

Mucolid Spore = 15
Mucolid Spore = 15
Mucolid Spore = 15

Malanthrope = 85

Dimachaeron = 200
Dimachaeron = 200
10x Gargoyles = 60

Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75
Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75

Living Artillery Node
3x Warriors w/ Venom Cannon 100
3x Biovores = 120
Exocrine = 170

Has less Pods but starts with more on the board. The Living Artillery could also get a few Pins in, making it easier for the Dimachaeron to get into combat. Had enough points for Gargoyles, to tarpit a unit or to score an Objective.

Thoughts and criticisms would be appreciated!

I don't see this as a which-is-better dilemma, but rather, more of a personal preference. Both lists are great and definitely viable. It's just a matter of whether you want to run 2 or 3 flyrants. You can't really go wrong with either.

A word of caution, however. Eldar and Tau will shred your malanthrope behind the Aegis, as well as a centurionstar with Perfect Timing. That's the reason why I run a bastion instead - against these armies which you will see a lot of in tournament play.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I've got two lists that I want to try out but I don't know which one would be more competitive. I wanted to base them around two Dimachaerons in Pods (as i'm just about to get the model) but I'm unsure on the best way to support them.

List One

Spoiler:

CAD

Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240

3x Rippers w/ DS = 45
3x Rippers w/ DS = 45

Malanthrope = 85

Dimachaeron = 200
Dimachaeron = 200

Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with BLW = 150
Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with BLW = 150
3x Biovores = 120

Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75
Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75
Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75
Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75

Aegis Defence Line w Comms Relay

The list has more Tyrannocytes so that I can overload the opponent with threats. I considered a Bastion, but I was able to fit in the Biovores by having an Aegis and I can have three Large Blasts shot at from behind a 2+ Cover save if I leave the Malanthrope with the Biovores. I also have access to the Strategic Traits with this list which would be more useful.

List Two

Spoiler:

Hive Fleet Detachment
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x TL Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x TL Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x TL Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240

Mucolid Spore = 15
Mucolid Spore = 15
Mucolid Spore = 15

Malanthrope = 85

Dimachaeron = 200
Dimachaeron = 200
10x Gargoyles = 60

Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75
Tyrannocyte w/ Deathspitters = 75

Living Artillery Node
3x Warriors w/ Venom Cannon 100
3x Biovores = 120
Exocrine = 170

Has less Pods but starts with more on the board. The Living Artillery could also get a few Pins in, making it easier for the Dimachaeron to get into combat. Had enough points for Gargoyles, to tarpit a unit or to score an Objective.

Thoughts and criticisms would be appreciated!

Wow, it is hard not to like either of these...I think I'll suggest #2 because it has more Winged Tyrants. Neiher list suits my style, because I like having Troops, but both of these look like they can win games. Could you find enough points to get Fighter Ace? that would be a very nice upgrade on the Warlord.

I've been checking your bat reps jy2 and they're good stuff! Seems like shadow in the warp is FANTASTIC against daemons. Seems like bringing a lot of flyrants is the common tactic. I've read through the run-through for the different units. I wonder how viable other builds are. I typically like to maximize putting more guys on the field over single strong units. Especially against my friends who usually runs 30 boyz at a time, or 20 flesh hounds and a death star of plague drones.

Project Pineapple is underway.http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/631737.page

Here is a side by side comparison (Still a WIP):


I also built this sweet Neurothrope out of spare parts:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Sentry pylons are horrific and the fact I can't jink against them is brutal. How do I deal with them??? I'd need two turns of shooting at them with my 3 Flyrants to statistically finish them - that's mental.

We always play sentry pylon's Death Ray as a Beam. Beams can't hit Swooping FMC's. So keep to the Sky. Hunt down the Anhillation barges, and then blow up the Wraiths and jetbikes. A low model count list with a Barbed heirodule and 2-3 flyrants will make mincemeat of that list.

Also, AFAIK Sentry Pylons don't ignore cover, so Jink Away, and keep everything on the ground in the range of a shrouded giver.

ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.

Correct, they don't ignore cover.

However, even cover might not be enough due to the idiotic wording of their rule. Say, they hit 3 rippers (just 1 unit) and 1 flyrant (assuming on the ground still) with 3 pylons. Guess how many hits each unit takes? 24 friggin' S10 hits!!! Even cover won't be enough to save them.

That isn't how I read their rules, nor how I've seen them played. Here is the rule in question:

Focussed Death Ray: To fire the focussed death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within its range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Draw a straight line (Considered to be 1mm in width) between the two points. Every unit (Friendly or Enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to twice the number of models underneath the line.

I read that to mean that for 3 death ray Pylons, they would do 18 hits to the rippers and 6 hits to the flyrant, because of the 1st part of the sentence limiting the models to those inside the unit. I see the reason you drew your conclusion that it is not limited to models in the specific unit, but like many things 40k when a rule has 2 valid RAW arguments, it goes to a RAI argument, and I think the RAI is clear. Each unit takes a number of hits proportional to the number of models of that unit that are under the beam.

Well I got well and truly bummed at cally however Nathan Roberts and a few other guys are doing pretty well on the top tables! I beleive Nathan is running a triple Flyrant and skyblight list in the final.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
However, even cover might not be enough due to the idiotic wording of their rule. Say, they hit 3 rippers (just 1 unit) and 1 flyrant (assuming on the ground still) with 3 pylons. Guess how many hits each unit takes? 24 friggin' S10 hits!!! Even cover won't be enough to save them.

That isn't how I read their rules, nor how I've seen them played. Here is the rule in question:

Focussed Death Ray: To fire the focussed death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within its range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Draw a straight line (Considered to be 1mm in width) between the two points. Every unit (Friendly or Enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to twice the number of models underneath the line.

I read that to mean that for 3 death ray Pylons, they would do 18 hits to the rippers and 6 hits to the flyrant, because of the 1st part of the sentence limiting the models to those inside the unit. I see the reason you drew your conclusion that it is not limited to models in the specific unit, but like many things 40k when a rule has 2 valid RAW arguments, it goes to a RAI argument, and I think the RAI is clear. Each unit takes a number of hits proportional to the number of models of that unit that are under the beam.

RAI, I agree with you and that's how I play it as well.

However, like I said, the RAW is stupid....but it is also very clear.

In tournament play, better check with the TO.

 Wilson wrote:
Well I got well and truly bummed at cally however Nathan Roberts and a few other guys are doing pretty well on the top tables! I beleive Nathan is running a triple Flyrant and skyblight list in the final.

Sorry to hear. How'd your match against the Necron Pylonstar go?

BTW, does Nathan post here on dakka? Know his dakka handle?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamerely wrote:
I've been checking your bat reps jy2 and they're good stuff! Seems like shadow in the warp is FANTASTIC against daemons. Seems like bringing a lot of flyrants is the common tactic. I've read through the run-through for the different units. I wonder how viable other builds are. I typically like to maximize putting more guys on the field over single strong units. Especially against my friends who usually runs 30 boyz at a time, or 20 flesh hounds and a death star of plague drones.

In that case, gargoyles are our best gribblies. They are fast, can shoot and are also a better tarpit unit due to their Blinding Poison. Moreover, they can also hurt high Toughness units that hormies/termies cannot.

Definitely take a look at the SkyTyrant formation. I think you'd like it.

can you suggest me a 1750 list against a meta with heavy mechanized troops(lr) and anti air?

My experience with Shrikes (albeit not that much experience), which I'm testing for a tourney is that they want to get into combat asap and not waste time shooting - I've lost the unit a few times due in no small part to it having spent time shooting (and doing very little damage). Sure, it adds versatility, but I feel like when I spend that much on a unit, 6 devourers isn't going to cut it - not least when I could have a unit of gaunts spit out a huge amount more shots from the same weapon for far cheaper.

Anyway, I would agree with Rending Claws as a fairly cheap option that lets them deal with /most/ things - but am also going to try dropping the devourer and running Scytals+AG to essentially just accelerate them into combat and let them have more hits when they get there.

General question, are people under the impression that you have to take the leviathan warlord traits if you use that detachment?

I seem to recall lots of people saying you do, but I read it for myself this weekend before my first game at Cally, rather than just assuming. And you still get he option of swapping out.

Eldercaveman wrote:
General question, are people under the impression that you have to take the leviathan warlord traits if you use that detachment?

I seem to recall lots of people saying you do, but I read it for myself this weekend before my first game at Cally, rather than just assuming. And you still get he option of swapping out.

The Hive Fleet Detachment states outright that you have to use the Hive Fleet Warlords table.

Unless your warlord is from any other detachment.

Xyptc wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
General question, are people under the impression that you have to take the leviathan warlord traits if you use that detachment?

I seem to recall lots of people saying you do, but I read it for myself this weekend before my first game at Cally, rather than just assuming. And you still get he option of swapping out.

The Hive Fleet Detachment states outright that you have to use the Hive Fleet Warlords table.

Yeah I thought it did, but I read it this weekend and it says your warlord may choose to roll on this table rather than the ones in Warhammer 40,000 the rules or codex Tyranids. Unless somehow I've completely forgotten how to read which wouldn't be beyond he realms of possibility.

Eldercaveman wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
General question, are people under the impression that you have to take the leviathan warlord traits if you use that detachment?

I seem to recall lots of people saying you do, but I read it for myself this weekend before my first game at Cally, rather than just assuming. And you still get he option of swapping out.

The Hive Fleet Detachment states outright that you have to use the Hive Fleet Warlords table.

Yeah I thought it did, but I read it this weekend and it says your warlord may choose to roll on this table rather than the ones in Warhammer 40,000 the rules or codex Tyranids. Unless somehow I've completely forgotten how to read which wouldn't be beyond he realms of possibility.

It is a detachment requirement. From the Detachment Requirements section :"If your Warlord is from this Detachment, then you must roll on the Hive Fleet Leviathan Warlord Traits table to see which Warlord Trait it has". I am not seeing a way around this off hand.

I can confirm It, I saw the real book myself today too during the event (as in the softcover version not the eversion).

It says you MAY roll on Leviathan table NOT must. Therefore now there is 2 versions and no one has any clue which is correct, we went with book version because it was seen as more official.

Just as an aside Cally results are now out, a Tyranid player came both 2nd and 5th.

The guy who won the event overall was using a pylon star.

The Tyranid player who came 5th 20nil'd me in my second game. His list really was a bad match up for mine especially in a kill points mission.

I finished 43rd which is good, I was hoping top 50, and considering my 3rd and 4th games (a loss and draw respectively) were both my games too lose for various reasons, I let them slip, I pretty happy with that postion.

Wilson came across some real tough draws all weekend, he draw the pylon star round 1! He finished 136 in the end.

Benlisted wrote:
My experience with Shrikes (albeit not that much experience), which I'm testing for a tourney is that they want to get into combat asap and not waste time shooting - I've lost the unit a few times due in no small part to it having spent time shooting (and doing very little damage). Sure, it adds versatility, but I feel like when I spend that much on a unit, 6 devourers isn't going to cut it - not least when I could have a unit of gaunts spit out a huge amount more shots from the same weapon for far cheaper.

Anyway, I would agree with Rending Claws as a fairly cheap option that lets them deal with /most/ things - but am also going to try dropping the devourer and running Scytals+AG to essentially just accelerate them into combat and let them have more hits when they get there.

If you go this way you should find the points for Flesh Hooks...two pistol shots, and "counts as grenades" for a CC unit, that is pure gold. I would use that in preference to Adrenals, and you save 1 point per.

Jpr wrote:
I can confirm It, I saw the real book myself today too during the event (as in the softcover version not the eversion).

It says you MAY roll on Leviathan table NOT must. Therefore now there is 2 versions and no one has any clue which is correct, we went with book version because it was seen as more official.

Check the detachment requirements. Not the Warlord table requirements. If you don't use the detachment, you can use the The leviathan table or the BRB tables

Tyranids' placed 2nd and 5th at the 180 man Caledonian open.

Both were running Leviathan Primary for triple flyrants.
2nd place allied in Skyblight formation, while 5th allied Skytyrant formation.
I would consider that a very good showing by the bugs.

Deshkar wrote:
Tyranids' placed 2nd and 5th at the 180 man Caledonian open.

Both were running Leviathan Primary for triple flyrants.
2nd place allied in Skyblight formation, while 5th allied Skytyrant formation.
I would consider that a very good showing by the bugs.

imho it's a bad sign...

an "all flying" list means that if the opponent hasn't skyfire he has no chances